Jiraiya vs Hanzo of the Salamander

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JdG

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Jiraiya starts off in base mode. He use Sage Mode if needed. Hanzo is alive, not Edo. They are 50 meters apart before the fight starts. Both are bloodlusted. Fight takes place where Jiraiya fought Pein.

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ValarMelkor

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Jiraiya stomps.

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Just_Banter

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Jiraiya, Hanzo was really disappointing in the end, especially given the hype around him.

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TheVivas

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Jiraiya.

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ebonhawk

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@just_banter said:

Jiraiya, Hanzo was really disappointing in the end, especially given the hype around him.

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UFT

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#6  Edited By UFT

jiraiya looked confident in beating pain even after hearing hanzo lost. maybe he knew hanzo got weaker with age

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Direflash

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#7  Edited By Direflash

@just_banter:

If you mean that fight when he was resurected, I think that was meybe the most idiotic crap that I have ever seen in my life. I mean Hanzo should have been Kage level character. He beat the three sannins at the same time when they were young, he had a powerful summons and had clearly very strong jutsus and once was seen even using a teleportation jutsu, and still that fight was like lowest of the low where he did nothing.

He should have been much stronger, but they wrote him to be absolute crap.

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UFT

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#8  Edited By UFT

they werent sannin yet, plus how was it idiotic? he got blitzed by mifune. ok then that must mean mifune is a total beast who stomped him.

He should have been much stronger, but they wrote him to be absolute crap.

or your just underestimating his enemy

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KCMinato

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obviously jiraiya. Jiraiya in base mode can take hanzo out

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eliah1102

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Jiraiya dies a horrible death due Hanzo's poison.

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IndomitableRegal

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Jiraiya most likely, though he might need Sage Mode to do it.

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Direflash

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@uft:

It was idiotic because Hanzo really did nothing. He did not use jutsus almost at all, why would he go mostly with taijutsu and swordfighting against someone who only uses those?

And yes, they were not sannin yet but they were seriously skilled at their age at the time. Well, the whole war and fights againts the resurected were anyhow major dissapointment, big time! 80% of time it was babling around and flashbacks about good ol times and heartwarming memories.

And also to be noticed, there is that reply button to make it easier to answer further questions.

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tsoj

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Jiraiya.

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Luka_M

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Jiraiya-Boy

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UFT

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why would he go mostly with taijutsu and swordfighting against someone who only uses those?

honor

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Cosmic_Lantern

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#17  Edited By Cosmic_Lantern

@uft: He's right, theirs absolutely no reason Mifune should've beaten him so easily. If anything Hanzo should have been one of the Edo zombies wreaking havoc on an entire Division like the 3rd raikage. He's not the only stinker kishi dropped in the war though Mu, Hiruzen, 4th kazekage, Kurotsuchi, Samui, Pakura, ect.

All could have been decent characters.

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UFT

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#18  Edited By UFT

lol just because youve overrated a character doesnt mean they "should have" matched your expectations. and someone isnt a bad character for having lower power than you wanted them to have. that or your jsut massively underrating mifune.

did you forget that mifune was so fast that hanzo was not able to weave signs for ninjutsu in time? did you forget mifune was immune to the poison?

alot of characters have bad matchups, and people they naturally dont do well against.

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Cosmic_Lantern

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@uft said:

lol just because youve overrated a character doesnt mean they "should have" matched your expectations. and someone isnt a bad character for having lower power than you wanted them to have. that or your jsut massively underrating mifune.

did you forget that mifune was so fast that hanzo was not able to weave signs for ninjutsu in time? did you forget mifune was immune to the poison?

alot of characters have bad matchups, and people they naturally dont do well against.

Hanzo was a known teleporter....and he was fast enough to escape Nagato when he went ape shot. Not only that he was overwhelming the Senin at the same time, If you can convince me that Mifune is high kage level then you would have a case. Mifune is pretty fast seeing as he got the drop on Sasuke at the kage summit but hanzo not being able to weave handsigns is plot.

I haven't overrated anything, simply pointed out that they weren't developed enough.

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UFT

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#20  Edited By UFT

again that just makes mifune all the more impressive. he outsped a "teleporter". i shouldnt have to convince you mifune was high level, as thats obviously the implication from dominating hanzo and not letting him weave ninjutsu. hanzo even said this is predominantly why mifune is famous. hes just that fast that people have no time to use jutsus before he cuts them to pieces.

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Nite_Nite

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Nah Kishi just had bad poor storytelling.

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deactivated-5ac4e862bd47b

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Jiraiya

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EliteMan737

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Jiraiya stomps

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Direflash

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@uft:

Sorry about the stupid late post, but in the episodes there was really anything like this "hes just that fast that people have no time to use jutsus" of a thing. He had tons of a time to make jutsus. Because Hanzo was not just any lowballer. All we have seen from mifune that he stirked at Sasuke and failed to do so. " he outsped a "teleporter"!" is just a great way to say he was written very baddly in this scene. like most of the resurected. The crappiest time of the series. The ones of the greatest ninjas were beaten by crappy parlor tricks or by just talking. What a letdown.

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Chair-Sama

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@uft said:

lol just because youve overrated a character doesnt mean they "should have" matched your expectations. and someone isnt a bad character for having lower power than you wanted them to have. that or your jsut massively underrating mifune.

did you forget that mifune was so fast that hanzo was not able to weave signs for ninjutsu in time? did you forget mifune was immune to the poison?

alot of characters have bad matchups, and people they naturally dont do well against.

this as well as Maybe people forgot that mifune already fought hanzo once. he knows about his poison and his ninjutsu. why would MIfune, who now years later is a Top tier samurai, just let him use those same ninjutsu/poison techniques?

@uft: He's right, theirs absolutely no reason Mifune should've beaten him so easily. If anything Hanzo should have been one of the Edo zombies wreaking havoc on an entire Division like the 3rd raikage

alive even 3rd raikage was said to be a beast and only died because of his OWN technique.

He's not the only stinker kishi dropped in the war though Mu

Muu was not in battle long before madara showed up. and on top of that, was shown to take on the current tsuchikage(who knows of his strengths and weaknesses) and multiple other high tier ninja.

, Hiruzen,

what? iirc didn't hiruzen not only keep pretty much the entire army from being destroyed by matching the water/fire/earth/wind style of the Gedo head on, by himself with just 3 clones and his knowledge of the multiple elemental styles? also did he not keep up with the other Hokages when fighting the ten tails? i mean he was more useful throughout the whole war then all 5 of the current kages(excluding gaara. he was consistently OP through the war)

4th kazekage

he was slightly underwhelming but he was also matched by his own son/successor and who also can use the magnet release? 4th kazekage also got off screened by orochimaru. GF.

, Kurotsuchi,

wasnt an Edo so i don't know why you mentioned her here. but even so she is not a prevalent character at this point why would she get chapters full of feats when she's not even the tsuchikage yet?

Samui,

Also not an Edo BUT She helped take out the gold and silver brothers.

these guys were insane to beat BEFORE they were edo. hell these guys took on both the second hokage and the raikage at the Same time. Samui isn't even a Kage level ninja. she's a mid-tier jonin at best, why should she get more showcasing then she already got? she literally helped take down two of the strongest ninja legends ever.

Pakura, ect.

pakura ill give you is a cool character with some cool abilities. and kishi did kind of leave her being very underwhelming and she had a big potential.

these three ill give you, they were a little less then i expected them to be. but considering these guys were not major characters to begin with I'm glad kishi didnt spend needless time focussing on them.

All could have been decent characters.

i think the biggest problems with the Edo's people are not considering is that most if not all of them have people present in these fights that not one 1. know about them and their legends and 2. have previously fought them before.

like of course in the past they were considered beasts, take Wuu for example, his particle style was almost unheard of and had very few things that could counter it. now? not only is there still a living particle style user(current tsuchi) but people that have heard the legends + seen or fought against it before.

now for example the third raikage. imagine fighting him without the knowledge that the only way to damage him enough to end him is with his own attack. its going to be a much harder battle to fight.

Examples are most of the edo kage's are going up against their successors. of course the new kage will know about the abilities of the legendary kages that came before.

imagine people like Wuu or Zabuza or the third raikage without people their already that know about them?

zabuza alone could do immense damage to even top tiers without a sharinagin user around, let alone kakashi, the very one who already confronted and beat zabuza.

basically, its hard to stomp when people know your secrets.

@uft said:

lol just because youve overrated a character doesnt mean they "should have" matched your expectations. and someone isnt a bad character for having lower power than you wanted them to have. that or your jsut massively underrating mifune.

did you forget that mifune was so fast that hanzo was not able to weave signs for ninjutsu in time? did you forget mifune was immune to the poison?

alot of characters have bad matchups, and people they naturally dont do well against.

Hanzo was a known teleporter....and he was fast enough to escape Nagato when he went ape shot. Not only that he was overwhelming the Senin at the same time, If you can convince me that Mifune is high kage level then you would have a case. Mifune is pretty fast seeing as he got the drop on Sasuke at the kage summit but hanzo not being able to weave handsigns is plot.

I haven't overrated anything, simply pointed out that they weren't developed enough.

ummm.....he is. thats why he was there.

Mifune is to the samurai what a Kage is to the Ninja. he is the leader of All the samurai, their general. hanzo HIMSELF states handseals are pointless because of how fast mifune can draw his sword to attack. he mastered a specific style of Swordsmanship for this very effect. in a world where you are fighting ninja's, you are going to work out ways to prevent ninjutsu. its actually very simple to understand, enemy has a powerful move that requires a type of ritual or activation, attack before they can do that very thing.

here is the scan:

No Caption Provided

the reason this doesn't work on ninja's like sasuke is because sasukes strongest EMS abilities(sussano, Ameratsu, his lightning based moves) don't require any hand signs to use.

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Cosmic_Lantern

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#26  Edited By Cosmic_Lantern

skimmed through the rest, didn't care to reply, but I did want to touch on this:

Mifune is to the samurai what a Kage is to the Ninja. he is the leader of All the samurai, their general. hanzo HIMSELF states handseals are pointless because of how fast mifune can draw his sword to attack. he mastered a specific style of Swordsmanship for this very effect. in a world where you are fighting ninja's, you are going to work out ways to prevent ninjutsu. its actually very simple to understand, enemy has a powerful move that requires a type of ritual or activation, attack before they can do that very thing.

WiS. You're saying a simple substitution or clone by a high level ninja isnt a viable counter? Pity cop out, even Sakura has shown in part 1 that she can do this without handsigns. Not only that, he's fast enough to be on-par with all three of the sannin...I'd say he could've easily created an opening to eliminate him with other options.

Mifune isn't 'high-kage' level, he may be the samurai's leader but until they get some flashy techniques of thier own they'll always be at a disadvantage to the shinobi. Basically a more limited, less potential based Lee with a sword. In-fact I feel as If I could make a case for Lee soloing the entire Samurai company.

here is the scan:

Inconsistent out the wazoo when compared to the rest of the manga and just bad writing all together, their are plenty of instances where Jutsu are used without handsigns. How this managed to make it into the Manga and not simply a filler, I do not know but Hanzo is still most definitely a wasted potential character

the reason this doesn't work on ninja's like sasuke is because sasukes strongest EMS abilities(sussano, Ameratsu, his lightning based moves) don't require any hand signs to use.

All of which he can still win without, you can't make a legitimate case for him beating utterly anyone above named fodder based on 'they can't use handsigns, gg'....thier are numerous with speed feats above him and this most certainly isn't the case with those people. Thats like saying Sasuke won't give Naruto time to weave handsigns.

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Chair-Sama

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@cosmic_lantern said:

@chair-sama said:

skimmed through the rest, didn't care to reply, but I did want to touch on this:

Mifune is to the samurai what a Kage is to the Ninja. he is the leader of All the samurai, their general. hanzo HIMSELF states handseals are pointless because of how fast mifune can draw his sword to attack. he mastered a specific style of Swordsmanship for this very effect. in a world where you are fighting ninja's, you are going to work out ways to prevent ninjutsu. its actually very simple to understand, enemy has a powerful move that requires a type of ritual or activation, attack before they can do that very thing.

WiS. You're saying a simple substitution or clone by a high level ninja isnt a viable counter? Pity cop out, even Sakura has shown in part 1 that she can do this without handsigns

sakura =/= hanzo.

i doubt hanzo is using regular clones. if anything he's using water clones, who many characters have shown to use hand signs for.

and mifune has easily shown the speed to be able to counter a simple clone or substitution. maybe you are also forgetting, these samurai, have been able to cement their existance in the ninja world, through many wars, without being taken over or invaded or destroyed. do you think that just happens? do you think the ninja just ignored them for hundreds of years? these samurai have obviously found a few ways to counter ninja, one of them, in mifune's case, being using the sword style combined with incredible speed to be able to try and prevent most ninja from using their jutsu. apparently he's even famous for it.

Mifune, as a young samurai, was shown to take on hanzo and be competent enough to be comparible until he was effected by his poison. Hanzo himself even stated that he could not take his mask off because mifune was skilled enough to possibly rupture his poison sac thus paralyzing himself, and giving mifune more then enough time to strike.

and so you are saying, that Kishimoto, who obviously put these very feats into the manga to show mifune's speed in comparison to the top tiers of the ninja, is wrong and you are right, correct?

just because you clearly dislike a character does not make his feats any less likely.

. Not only that, he's fast enough to be on-par with all three of the sannin...I'd say he could've easily created an opening to eliminate him with other options.

and Mifune blitzed both him AND sasuke. sasuke who is able to keep up with characters Above the sanin in power in speed.

the thing you are not getting is, how can you outspend somebody, who was just shown to be faster then you?

another thing is. this is not mifunes first time fighting Hanzo. He knows about hanzo's poison, he knows about his summonings, he knows about some of the jutsu's he used in his prime. now tell me, if mifune has the ability to blitz him to stop some of those jutsu's, why would he not do it? why would he just let Hanzo use his jutsu's if it could be avoided. especially if he knows, that hanzo could win if he used them? as somebody who is not a shinobi who probably does not have a counter for those moves, its actually in his best interest to avoid it as much as possible.

Mifune isn't 'high-kage' level, he may be the samurai's leader but until they get some flashy techniques of thier own they'll always be at a disadvantage to the shinobi. Basically a more limited, less potential based Lee with a sword. In-fact I feel as If I could make a case for Lee soloing the entire Samurai company.

average samurai are not the same as mifune. lee could also solo 95% of the entire ninja army excluding the top tiers. what does that prove? absolutely nothing. except that fodder is fodder.

i could also make a case, that based off feats, mifune would speed blitz and throat cut 95% of the ninja companies excluding the main cast characters(IE: the kages and their assistants, and most of the named cast ronin's) . LMAO again this proves nothing.

and really? lee with a sword? no. there is a huge difference. Lee can not use ninjutsu. Samurai choose not to, but they still use chakra. Lee uses taijutsu(H2H) where as samurai use their swordsmanship and sword styles. hanzo even comments on mifunes exact style, One based on Extremely fast speed and extreme precision and skill.

and i did not say mifune was "high kage" because lets face it, Hanzo himself is not even "high-kage" he would get wrecked by gaara or the Raikage, even tsunade could probably wreck him.

what I'm saying, is that mifune is comparible to the kage. he is the top tier of the samurai, just like the kage is the top tier of the ninja village. is that really that hard to understand?

its like saying a General in the Army is comparible to an Admiral in the Navy. Are they the same? no. but they are both the top of their respective branches.

would i say that mifune is similar in skill to the kage? sure. i don't think he's going to be one shooting any of them but 1v1 with a mage(excluding the raikage) like say tsunade, he could probably stand his ground longer then a lot of other characters.

he was shown to be able to blitz sasuke. somebody who not only took on the kage's but was literally complimented for his speed by the raikage. somebody who has shown to match naruto's speed, putting sasuke in the same category as raikage/naruto/4th hokage.

here is the scan:

Inconsistent out the wazoo when compared to the rest of the manga and just bad writing all together, their are plenty of instances where Jutsu are used without handsigns.

And a lot of these moves they do sign less are either 1. their very over used techniques. 2. techniques that don't require hand signs. IE: Madara needed hand signs to summon his meteor's and his fire style, but does not need them to summon sussano or wood clones.

IE: Naruto still needs to use signs usually for his clones(sasuke too, hence why naruto had to invent the one handed clone sign for him) but naruto does not for the resengan.

IE: its been shown that a lot of the kekkei genkai related/passed down or custom created jutsu's don't require hand signs,

examples are any sharinigan eye technique usually, things like mum's particle release, Gaara's sand hardly required hand signs.

but at the same time, there are SOO many top tiers that, for one reason or another still need to use sometime of hand signs for certain techniques. i can literally post Dozens of scans if you really need it. to say its not accurate that a ninja would not need a handling for a powerful technique? have you even read the manga?

and another thing, there are ALSO a lot of instances of people getting speed blitzed mid-jitsu.

How this managed to make it into the Manga and not simply a filler, I do not know but Hanzo is still most definitely a wasted potential character

wasted potential? lol. he's taken on all 3 sanin and gave them their legendary status. was a HUGE plot pusher with nagato + the akatsuki. in fact he was one of the very factors(along with danzo and obito) that caused the akatsuki to go from a group of honorable ninja to a band of S ranked criminals. He is also one of the reason Mifune and his subordinates subordinates are still alive and one of the reasons the earlier ninja war even broke out, which was ALSO a huge plot pusher. this is the same war that forged the very akatsuki to begin with. he is far from a wasted character and actually has more effect on the entire story then most of the main characters themselves.

the reason this doesn't work on ninja's like sasuke is because sasukes strongest EMS abilities(sussano, Ameratsu, his lightning based moves) don't require any hand signs to use.

All of which he can still win without, you can't make a legitimate case for him beating utterly anyone above named fodder based on 'they can't use handsigns, gg

i did not say that was the only reason. i was giving you a scan about why he couldn't weave-hand signs. I'm not saying ALL jutsu use hand signs. but many do. naruto still to this day uses signs for his clones. AND for his toad summoning.

even many TOP tier's use hand signs.

IE: nagato, Itachi, kabuto, orochimaru, Madara, Hanzo.

'....thier are numerous with speed feats above him and this most certainly isn't the case with those people. Thats like saying Sasuke won't give Naruto time to weave handsigns.

now that you mention it. sasuke has a bit of a track record of trying to blitz people mid jutsu.......

you took a lot of time out of your day to twist a lot of what i had to say. Let me give you a nice slow clap.

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Cosmic_Lantern

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@chair-sama: I'm not even going to bother to read that wall of text tbh, I don't even know why I replied in the first place. You quoted a comment (Opinion based at that) from 8 months ago, I suppose It's my also. The samurai in Naruto are poop. Hanzo died to a poop character. What else do you want to hear from me? That's basically my take on it, this thread is over It's absolutely nothing left to argue but offtopic nonsense that I have no interest anymore.

Please don't drag this on anymore, don't tag me here again.

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kgb725

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@cosmic_lantern: Hanzo is logically above Jiraiya and could still probably kill him if he poisoned him at the beginning he just doesn't have that many feats

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Hanzo.

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Chair-Sama

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@chair-sama: I'm not even going to bother to read that wall of text tbh, I don't even know why I replied in the first place. You quoted a comment (Opinion based at that) from 8 months ago, I suppose It's my also. The samurai in Naruto are poop. Hanzo died to a poop character. What else do you want to hear from me? That's basically my take on it, this thread is over It's absolutely nothing left to argue but offtopic nonsense that I have no interest anymore.

Please don't drag this on anymore, don't tag me here again.

lol if you don't want to be tagged, why did you bother tagging me again?

its just ironic to see people state their opinions as if were fact and deny authors word VIA on panel statements and feats, based on how they feel haha.

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Cosmic_Lantern

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lol if you don't want to be tagged, why did you bother tagging me again?

To be frank I wasn't in the mood at the time, I'd be more than happy to take time out of my day to shut you up now seeing as you didn't heed my wishes.

its just ironic to see people state their opinions as if were fact and deny authors word VIA on panel statements and feats, based on how they feel haha.

LOL what feats? Thats the issue with the entire situation, you have ONE character statement that doesn't correspond with the rest of the manga and were just going to roll with it? It is quite literally the DEFINITION of PiS/WiS/CiS, If a Genin sakura can make substitutions without handsigns (Hell IIRC Iruka did it against Mizuki also in the FIRST few chapters) why can't a famed Jonin do it? If Zabuza can substitute water clones without handsigns why can't he? As a matter of fact Kakashi is quite known for dropping the exploding raiton clone without notice. What about Sasuke/kakashi who also does a substitution on the very first mission to subdue the duo?

That's three examples that all come from early part 1 (theirs utterly hundreds more), I didn't see a need to get them but I'll gladly fetch them if need be.

Whats your supporting argument again? What evidence do you have? Which instance can you compare this to for reference?

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Chair-Sama

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@chair-sama said:

lol if you don't want to be tagged, why did you bother tagging me again?

To be frank I wasn't in the mood at the time, I'd be more than happy to take time out of my day to shut you up now seeing as you didn't heed my wishes.

its just ironic to see people state their opinions as if were fact and deny authors word VIA on panel statements and feats, based on how they feel haha.

LOL what feats? Thats the issue with the entire situation, you have ONE character statement that doesn't correspond with the rest of the manga and were just going to roll with it? It is quite literally the DEFINITION of PiS/WiS/CiS, If a Genin sakura can make substitutions without handsigns (Hell IIRC Iruka did it against Mizuki also in the FIRST few chapters)

Umm. two feats of blitzing people, + a character statement + mifunes reputation.

we also know, hanzo is a top tier ninja, and mifune, based of feats, atleast in speed is able to keep up with top tiers. (obviously power and versatility he is heavily lacking, that i won't deny.) with him being a top tier ninja, he is probably not going to rely solely on normal clones and substitutes. substitutes are kind of a one trick pony. especially against high their opponents that are faster then you.

and as for clones.

1. its been stated that normal clone < elemental clone < shadow clones in terms of power.

we also know every other example of a clone above standard clones(even standard clones take hand signs) have needed hand signs. atleast 1-2 of them.

the main thing is, hanzo has so many more effecttive jutsu to use, thats what mifune is trying to prevent. Hanzo of the salamander has one of the more powerful summoning animals. a giant poisonous salamander. unless you mean to say a normal clone > salamander summons, then i don't know why you keep bringing substitutions and clones into this endlessly. my point here is, Mifune knows of hanzo and his techniques, if he could prevent it, then WHY would he just let hanzo summon his salamanders? why would he let him use his poison based jutsu? I'm not saying hanzo could get off a two sign jutsu, but something like summoning that takes 4-5 hand signs? yea thats a good amount of time to speed blitz when characters at this point are easily above hypersonic speeds.

if you want to dispute the statement itself fine. but you can't exactly dispute mifunes ability to blitz. its not a one time occurrence, its happened two times, to two different characters in two different chapters.

So that being said, you are trying to deny on-panel feats of mifune speed blitzing.

because by the same logic, characters like the third raikage being only killable by his only jutsu is also PIS. heck by that standard gaara using magnet release against his dad is Also PIS. so would the 4th hokage being able to use karma's chakra. something thats never been shown before and has said to take years to eb able to master the bijou's chakra, yet all of a sudden he has mastered it and can use the chakra cloak. k. makes sense right?

we could also say that naruto all of a sudden being able to outspend the 4th raikage is PIS.

just because a New character we haven't seen before, hasnt shown these feats before doesn't mean its PIS.

Kishi gave a situation, he gave reasoning for it, and even had a background feat of mifune at the kage summit blitzing sasuke.

its one thing to not like the character in general or even the samurai's in general, but to call it PIS simply because you don't like them is purely idiotic. especially when he has atleast 1 prior feat to back it up as well.

why can't a famed Jonin do it? If Zabuza can substitute water clones without handsigns why can't he? As a matter of fact Kakashi is quite known for dropping the exploding raiton clone without notice.

also substitution =/= all of ninjutsu. one of hanzo's best moves, his summoning jutsu, REQUIRES BLOOD AND A HAND SIGN. every person who summons does this. orochimaru/tsunade/sakura/ sasuke/naruto/jaraiya/ ETC. proof? here are the hand signs for his summoning.

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the whole point of the substitution is to be stealthy about it. i also don't think you understand how substitutions works. there are hand signs for it. not many and they can be done rather rapidly.

We have seen characters use hand signs faster then the eye can see IE: kakshi VS itachi. he compliments itachi on his use of shruiken to distract kakashi from his rapid one handed hand signs for the water jutsu he uses.

and its ironic that you mention kakashi/zabuza not using hand signs.

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What about Sasuke/kakashi who also does a substitution on the very first mission to subdue the duo?

umm. so using a substitution on a chunin level ninja automatically means it will work on somebody Around ~kage level right? ALSO if you pay attention, you will see, that kakashi then goes to explain to sakura and group that he had known something was not right when he saw the puddle in the middle of the dry season when there has not been rain for days. they had made a rookie mistake and gave him a chance to react to it.

now i could ask you, why doesn't ANY high level ninja do it? we've seen maybe 4 substitutions since the beginning of shippuden. most of them being from Killer Bee to avoid getting captured(an he can use a piece of his tailed beast for it, as to better disquise it.

going off of your train of logic logic, because kakashi was able to cast a genjutsu on sakura, he should be able to cast it on any ninja. why oh why didnt he just genjutsu Zabuza, or Diedara, or obito? or madara? or ANYBODY other then genin sakura? because they are top tier ninja who can either see through it or are fast enough to work around it/dodge it.

That's three examples that all come from early part 1 (theirs utterly hundreds more), I didn't see a need to get them but I'll gladly fetch them if need be.

there are also LITERALLY hundreds of examples of ninja's using hand signs for a multitude of different justus. everything form rinnegan abilities to clones. i will ALSO bring in some examples.

Whats your supporting argument again? What evidence do you have? Which instance can you compare this to for reference?

umm. my supporting argument and my evidence are the hundreds of examples through out the anime/manga of ninja using hand signs for some of their top level ninjutsu. Sure he could probably blast a substitution or simple clone. I'm not doubting that. but anything complex that isn't a kekkai genkai or dojutsu usually required atleast 1-2 hand signs even from the most skilled ninja. and i already listed instances but i will AGAIN list them, ALONG with scans for you :)

so by your logic, any high tier ninja that DOES have to use hand signs is either under genin sakura or CIS/PIS/WIS?

k.

so you basically just said that itachi/hashirama/madara/zabuza/kakashi/naruto/sasuke and SOOO many more arte all under genin sakura.

lets see. couple of things i want to point out to you.

1. naruto had to make a one handed sign for the shadow clone jutsu, so that he could use the jutsu without his other arm.

confirmed sasuke < genin sakura

2. why did madara have to Use his sussano to form the other two hand signs for his meteor?

confirmed madara < genin sakura

now for some scans of high level- top tier ninja using hand signs. multiple examples.

so ill gladly have you explain how all of these are either PIS or them being under genin sakura.

mizukage.
mizukage.

post time skip sasuke
post time skip sasuke
madara for his Meteor's
madara for his Meteor's
madara for his fire style.
madara for his fire style.
hashirama and madara.
hashirama and madara.

and its ironic that you mention kakashi/zabuza not using hand signs.

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Mad_Titan

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Back to topic: Jiraiya wins - he won't let Hanzo beat him again. The only reason he was beaten in the Great Ninja War along with Tsunade and Orochimaru was because they were already tired. He'd find a way to beat the poison. Using Massive Rasengan would be a great idea, for example, as it'll disperse the poison cloud ( remember Rasengan's translation - Spiraling Sphere ).

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bowlt_swagg_320

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Jiraiya

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USSJ3071

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jiraiya IMO

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utkanflash

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#38  Edited By utkanflash

When Hanzo, played with Sannin they're teenagers and now the things are changed.. Jiraiya is become one of the most versatile & capable shinobi out there.. trained 3 high-kage level student.

So ı dont think Hanzo is superior anymore.. Maybe he can beat Base Jiriya (but even thats a maybe) but with SM ı think Jiraiya gonna take that with high diff at most.

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RazielGhoul

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Hanzo fodderized the 3 Sannin. No answer against his deadly and painful poison. Jiraiya can win against him only with Sage Mode

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BilboBaggins

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#40  Edited By BilboBaggins

Hanzo suffered the PIS moment, unfortunatelly.
He fought against Mifune, an enemy immune to his poison, with knowledge about him and fast enough to react against his hand seals. Let alone the sepukku part.
If we consider his deadly poison inside his whole body, Ibuse, teleportation, experience, skilled sword fighter, intelligence and that "ground paper bombs" trap...he's a mid-high tier Kage.
He fought against an army of Konohagakure shinobi with the 3 Sannin togheter. Young, okay, but not weak. And it seems like he owned them easily, without troubles.
He's also fast enough to dodge the "Gedo Reaper of Souls Dragon" with teleportation.

The problem? he fought against PIS and a lucky, very lucky, character. In other words he's the Irene Belserion of Naruto.

Against base Jiraiya? Okay, Jiraiya "now" is totally another shinobi. More skilled, versatile, smart. But not enough to counter Hanzo's poison and Ibuse...and all his other feats. Not to mention that Jiraiya was extremelly surprised when he knew that Pain defeated and killed Hanzo. Very surprised.
Honestly i still think that Hanzo can pretty-easily defeat Jiraiya.

Against SM Jiraiya? Could go either way...Jiraiya is faster and stronger, with more deadly jutsu...but he can't win against Hanzo in a H2H. If Hanzo bleed, Jiraiya gets paralyzed till death.
Jiraiya needs to use long range and fast attacks. The Genjutsu is a good card too. Stalemate or Jiraiya 6.5/10


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