Was gonna put some closing comments as well, but my partner put it very nicely. If either of you have any further comments, go right ahead. Otherwise, this thing is now up for voting.
I do kinda get the final say in when voting starts.... but whatever. No biggie.
Before we do though I highly doubt Wesker is going to sit there. I'd imagine the only reason why he'd hang back is because according to him Chris and Jill (or Sheva) aren't much of a threat. They are not enhanced in any way. If he saw a speedster like Kayvaan I highly doubt he'd just sit back and watch. Wesker has genius intellect and he'd realize that Kayvaan would tear up the team (which would put him at a serious disadvantage) if he didn't do something about it.
@nickzambuto: Actually, I think it's been shown that Wesker's healing factor has been quite impressive, I mean, taking a swan dive from the window of a mansion from a far heights to a rocky bottom, not only to survive and heal from that, but also saving Jill Valentine's life in the process? And actually, I seriously doubt it took as long as 30 minutes for Wesker to get up after being thoroughly gored by the Tyrant. Considering the extent of his injuries, I would say he healed rather quickly. Especially when you think he got up while the self-destruct sequence was still going on in the underground laboratory, I believe the survivors of S.T.A.R.S. had just been picked up by Brad Vickers and flown to minimum safe distance before the laboratory and mansion went up in an explosion, and Wesker had made it out before that, so if you think about it, Wesker had made it out before the helicopter was even in safe distance from the explosion. Not to mention, in The Umbrella Chronicles, Wesker rose rather quickly, still covered in blood and gore, while casually using his powers to kill off B.O.W.'s (including Lisa Trevor) along the way. Is there a specific time limit on how fast his healing factor is? No, but neither is there a time limit that shows when, exactly, his healing factor kicks in, so based on what we see during the storyline, I would say it's about Deathstroke level, especially when you consider in his weakened state (after the overdose of serum admistered by Chris Redfield), he was shot in the head by Sheva, and came back after the crash in the volcano as if nothing had happened.
Sabretooth's amped healing factor was explained in the scan of him facing Deadpool, if you read their dialogue, which is why Deadpool's rifle did virtually little to no damage against him, where it might have caused him to stumble away before. Also, considering Captain America is lacking his greatest tool--his strategic skills, which come from his brilliant tactical mind, I think Boba Fett would actually have a somewhat easy time ridding of the shield with a few blasts from his energy firearms, only to get lit up like a Christmas tree once Rogers is without the shield, especially when you look at the arsenal Fett is packing in the OP. You can show as many shield skill tricks as make you happy inside, but that doesn't mean a zombified mind is going to have the comprehension to ricochet a shield and outsmart a seasoned veteran like Boba Fett. If anything, a zombified Captain America would probably be the first to fall in this scenario, leaving Boba Fett to aid other teammates by firing away with his weaponry, and who's to say he wouldn't be able to use the fallen Cap shield, as well as his own durasteel armor, to protect himself from any types of further assaults? Shrike has been described as fast, no doubt about that, but it's not as if Wesker wouldn't be able to avoid the brunt of his assaults, especially an oncoming bull-rush type of offensive that Wesker could see coming a mile away. Hell, Wesker has shown the ability to multi-task in battle, he could also pump some S&W magnum rounds into the back spinal column of an unknowing Captain America just to make Boba Fett's job easier, I doubt a zombified team is going to focus and rely heavily upon teamwork. Of the opposing team, Captain America and Wolverine are the most likely to fall first, leaving the rest of our team to keep The Gorgon & Shrike busy until Wesker retrieves the S.H.I.E.L.D. antidote, giving our team the victory without even having to kill or incapacitate everyone on the opposing team.
Sorry Progenitor, I disagree with the bolded part. The bottom of that Castle was never shown, so we don't know if it had a rocky bottom or not. Based off the fact that Jill survived the fall bottom couldn't possible been rocky since that he would have killed her and she turned up in Resident Evil 5 without a scar. And didn't Spencer Mansion have a ocean view as well?
@nick_hero22: It's been pointed out before, I believe actually by nickzambuto, that during the landscape shot of the estate grounds, it shows only a rocky floor at the near bottom, while the ocean isn't too far away, so while I would agree that they could have fallen in water (which still, from that height, would have killed any normal man), I still believe they fell unto the rocky bottom.
@nick_hero22: It's been pointed out before, I believe actually by nickzambuto, that during the landscape shot of the estate grounds, it shows only a rocky floor at the near bottom, while the ocean isn't too far away, so while I would agree that they could have fallen in water (which still, from that height, would have killed any normal man), I still believe they fell unto the rocky bottom.
See, I give Wesker credit where credits due ;)
@Fetts said:
@nickzambuto: @JediWaffles: Yup. People may start voting now.
Can you announce it in the PM? I would but I'm afraid I can't find it.
@nick_hero22: It's been pointed out before, I believe actually by nickzambuto, that during the landscape shot of the estate grounds, it shows only a rocky floor at the near bottom, while the ocean isn't too far away, so while I would agree that they could have fallen in water (which still, from that height, would have killed any normal man), I still believe they fell unto the rocky bottom.
Actually there some great Zombies on team 2. I mean Shrike, rly? Shrike can easily get the drop on Snake Eyes and the Fett. Shrike is the best at that. Sabes could sense him with those senses and Wesker reflexes are just so damn fast. He will then just LC most members to bits.
Wolverin is same scenario tho Shrike is better at Stealth.
Gorgon (This is the ninja one right?) From What I read on him he best Wolvie. So Sabertooth or Snake Eyes is no big deal.
Cap is the weak link here. Ultimate Cap could beat Wesker or Sabes handily but a Regular Cap is a even match for SEs or Fett, but Sabes and Wesker might be out of his Zombie Legue.
@CadenceV2: @Fresh Prince: Preposterous! I'll give you guys something far better than cookies.... you'll each receive a hug from yours truly. If you change your votes that is :)
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@CadenceV2: Out of curiosity, did you even read the debate? It just seems like your vote is based off your opinion rather than the debate and the points that the four of us pointed out.
It just occurred to me that I wasn't able to say my last piece before voting, so i'll say it now. Kayvaan Shrike, Tomi Shishido, Captain America, & Wolverine would all be an incredible team by normal circumstance--however, in this situation, stated by the OP, the team is zombified. Now, as i've stated before, zombie lore states that while zombies retain limited motor functions, meaning that the opposition would still have their strength, and a portion of their speed, it would not be the same as if they were normal. The Gorgon, Wolverine, Kayvaan Shrike, Captain America, part of what makes them all so formidable is their intelligence, which, in this situation, is deteriorated. Shrike wouldn't be able to utilize his stealth skills, Captain America wouldn't be able to utilize his shield sling or tactical genius, The Gorgon wouldn't have his telepathy, nor full range of his skills.
That alone is a huge disadvantage for the opposition, whereas team Resistance has the genius-intellect in Albert Wesker, along with speed and agility to match the likes of Shishido or Shrike, as well as the cunning tactical prowess of Boba Fett & the cerebral games and brute force of Sabretooth, finally, the enigmatic Snake-Eyes, who I believe has the skills to cause a number of the opponents trouble. This wouldn't be an easy battle, by any means, and I give props and respect to both my bro nickzambuto & JediWaffles, they put up a great debate, and it's been a privilege debating against them. Most of all, thanks to my bro Fetts, a good friend of mine that i've finally been able to team up with, hopefully will get to, again.
Vote team Resistance, prevent the zombie apocalypse from coming to fruition!
@progenitor: I am so tempted to rebuttify that, but we're already in the voting stage so i'll leave it be haha. Great debate on all sides, hats off to everyone.
Well first off well done with the debate guys you really gave it a good shot.
This is very close. Due to the diminished intelligence on the Zombie team it gives the non-infected team a better shot. the MVP on the Zombie team is Kayvaan as only Wesker and Boba can put him down. Sabretooth isn't doing anything to him due to his healing factor and due to the Zombie virus his increase in durability. Same thing with Snake Eyes.
Wesker's advantage over Kayvaan is his intelligence once he sees that Kayvaan isn't taking any damage he's not going to stick around to keep trying he'll use his speed to put some distance between and think up a plan and due to his speed his perfectly capable of it. As Wesker is also familiar with Zombies it'll give him a good idea of how Kayvaan will react.
Boba could take him down due to his gear. Having said that its going to take a lot of punishment to get through Kayvaans healing factor, increased durability and Iron Halo. So by the time he's finished with Kayvaan he isn't going to have much ammo left so tactically although Boba can take down Kayvaan it would not be a viable to pit him against Shrike as he is going to expend a LOT of his gear in doing so. Also Boba would be at a disadvantage as Shrike is faster and he won't be able to fly away. Although as I stated he can take down Shrike but he is a lot less likely to do so than Wesker.
So if the non-infected team wants to beat Kayvaan their best shot is Wesker. Which could honestly go either way. If Kayvaan wasn't infected he would definitely win but due to the infection diminishing his intelligence he's not going to fight how he should. Which is a big disadvantage for someone who has an insane amount of combat experience. Having said that Wesker mustn't get to either close because even infected Shrike still outclasses him psychically. A couple of blows from an 8 tonner with lightning claws isn't going to make Albert feel that great. I'm actually going to call this a draw because Kayvaan won't be fighting smart and Wesker is going to have a hell of a time getting through Shrikes durability.
That just leaves Gorgon, Wolverine and Cap. Wolverine and Gorgon are both good healers. The non-infected teams best shot would be to put Boba against one and Sabretooth against the other. While letting Snake Eyes and Cap duke it out. This is where it shifts a little towards the Zombie team imo. Their durability is higher than the other team.
The way I see it both Boba and Sabretooth have a shot at taking down Logan due to his infected state but I don't think either of them have the necessary speed to match Gorgon (Boba could beat him if he had his jet-pack but he doesn't)
Gorgon>Boba/Sabretooth>Logan.
Thus who ever takes Logan the other will have to face Gorgon who imo will eventually win against either, his speed is just insane. The only way they could beat Gorgon is in a 2v1 fight but unless Snake Eye's beats Cap before Gorgon takes down one of the others(unlikely as i'm pretty sure that fight is going to last a while) then whoever was fighting Logan will get taken out by Gorgon. Wesker won't be able to help as he'll have his hands full with Kayvaan and Snake will have his hands full with Cap. So unfortunately whoever is left fighting Gorgon is going to get cut down.
BUT this imo is just how the fight would play out if the non-infected team where trying to win in a fight. That is not the aim here. The aim is to fight their way to the cure which if they play smart and avoid, distract and use terrain rather than fighting to win they could definitely do as the Zombies are going to be more concerned with trying to eat them than trying to stop them.
So in conclusion in an all out fight I see the Zombie team taking a majority but if the aim is to get to the cure then I see intelligence prevailing.
I dunno which one of these counts as the win or if they both do so i dunno where to put my point xD
Really good debating! A crucial point for me is the whole zombie virus, it's still not as clear as it should be at this point, however, being able to highlight certain aspects despite the negatives brought about by the virus, (especially of Kayvaan) shows pretty good, logical, fact supported debating. So im saying waffles and nick
@Strider92: You're going have to base your decision off the arguments and rebuttals that have been posted by either me, nick, fetts, or progs rather than your own haha. And then choose where to lay down your point. Right now it's Zombies = 2, Resistance = 1 i believe.
So far it looks like it's 1-1, although i'm not sure if CadenceV2 is..
@Fetts said:
@CadenceV2: @Fresh Prince: Preposterous! I'll give you guys something far better than cookies.... you'll each receive a hug from yours truly. If you change your votes that is :)
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@CadenceV2: Out of curiosity, did you even read the debate? It just seems like your vote is based off your opinion rather than the debate and the points that the four of us pointed out.
Actually I withdraw my post, It was a quick post without seeing all the scans. Give more detailed post later tonight. I take Hugs too.
(Hate when the computer completely deletes a post I spent 15 minutes writing)!
Anyway, I was saying that the battle is very well done and actually in all but one instance would it be tied. The problem being, these are ZOMBIES! They are infected with the zombie virus but they retain their own forms, so unless we are making a whole new stream of zombie for this team so they can rationalize passed feeding? The fact that we are debating a team of zombies vs a team of superheros makes it far more difficult for the opposing team. There's no way for a fight to be rational for these zombies even if they retain their natural form and muscle strength. Zombies are generally stronger but even if the team sacrificed one of their own and tossed one of their own guys at them to distract them it would work. As long as a zombie is presented with live bait it doesn't say, 'HEY! Lets go for the one that's still running!' They just dive for the fresh meat. So although its a great battle for those who are uninfected, I have to vote for Prog/Fetts over Waffles/Nick because of the obvious. If it was a battle of their normal abilities and feats then I might have gone the other way this time around, but zombies are zombies, plain and simple.
(that wasn't nearly as good as the last post but oh well!)
@exlmagician: Again, rather than pointing out why you think Resistance > Zombies, base your decision on the arguments provided. Also, you're completely debasing the zombie characters to your stereotypical zombie. This isn't the case. Reread the arguments me and nick put up and you'll see it isn't quite as one-sided as you may think.
@Strider92 Yeah it was one helluva lengthy debate. Haha have fun reading through all those pages!
@JediWaffles: Stereotypical is exactly what they are though. As badly as you and NickZ want them to be normal, you are the ones fighting a battle using zombies. If you wanted something more rational than a zombie, you might have used necromorphs or even the creatures for 28 days over a zombie. I have seen my share of zombie based video games and movies and in not one of them were they capable of rational thinking passed the most basic needs. I read the arguments. Despite your wish for them to be well thought out battles, they wouldn't be. Only something infected with something more powerful than the average zombie virus is capable of higher thinking, but since your design was to keep them in the normal state of being (physically resembling themselves), it doesn't really work that way. However, I understand why you would be concerned. I also noted that @progenitor mentioned it in his own argument that a zombie, is still a zombie.
@exlmagician: Then why have a tourney in the first place if they're all complete idiots, and no debate is required? Have you read the actual OP? There is nothing there that suggests that they are stereotypical zombies. Was there an exact number for how much intelligence is lost? No. There is however the fact that they are given their gear which implies the ability to use them. This suggests an intelligence level above that of your normal zombie. If your vote is based solely on this:
I also noted that@progenitor mentioned it in his own argument that a zombie, is still a zombie.
Then in all fairness, it shouldn't be counted as a vote.
Not trying to steal votes from anyone, btw, just tryin to be fair.
Took me a long time to finish reading this whole thing, but I give my vote to team Zombies. I feel like they have a slightly better argument and also put together a really tough team for the Resistance to defeat, mainly because of Shrike.
@JediWaffles: I think its funny you don't want my vote to count simply because you think my argument isn't solid. All sorts of zombies have 'gear.' Just because a zombie has an ax (go watch RE1 again please) doesn't mean they'll swing it. Gear does not imply intel, it implies that they HAVE it. Votes can't be discredited simply because I think your zombies aren't zombiesque. I believe on of the rules of tourny play is to follow the OP and rules of the battle. The rule was that they are zombies, so how is my vote discredited because I chose to follow the logic of zombies are zombies. If you are going to call them zombies you are going to have to accept that some people just find zombies incoherent.
On top of the comment that I used by Prog. Its not solely based on it. I was choosing to point out that I'm not the only one that thinks zombies are ZOMBIES. There was no sole basis on his argument, its the basis that neither of you approached them as undead, more over you approuched them as perfectly sane and normal super heroes with an added bonus of a virus that debilitates the other team.
@JediWaffles: Where did I specify that this they are above the normal zombie? I even recall implying that it was indeed the typical zombie. I do might recall saying that they get a tad bit more of intelligence than the typical zombie but other than that...
"Firstly, I said they're a little harder to kill. What I meant by that was that they can take more damage than they usually could. For example, if they take a bullet to the shoulder, it will have some effect but the zombies will still keep on coming for you. Kinda like Deadpool's healing factor, only that he can't die while the zombies can (by getting blown to pieces, getting their head chopped or shot off, etc.). That's usually the typical zombie. That did not imply that reflexes, speed, agility, strength, and so on were enhanced."
"And as you'll notice, I didn't say some intelligence I said [they lose] a lot of intelligence. And if that wasn't good enough for you, here are some other quotes of mine that specified their intelligence."
"For example, if you have Deathstroke, he still has his physical stats. But he is not nearly as intelligent."
Maybe you're right that that doesn't necessarily implies that they are the typical zombies. But just based off that I feel like you should get the general idea as just about everybody else did. If they were above the typical zombies I'm telling you it wouldn't be by much.
@JediWaffles said:
@exlmagician: Then why have a tourney in the first place if they're all complete idiots, and no debate is required?
That's what I was talking about near the beginning. Most of your team depends greatly on skill. As we've discussed, that would be flawed due to the lack of intelligence. Had your team depended more on their powers than they do with their skill it might have been different. If I were zombies I would have chosen a team that was powerful enough to not have much need of intelligence.
Holy shit my head hurts and eyes are bleeding.... There is SOOOO much info and scenarios thrown around in the last 5 pages... I bound to fug up some things so bear with me.
At first I went with team 2 for 2 reasons. 1) I figure Shrike has PA. Thats OP. 2) I thought they had alot Intelegance.
So after the clarify I think as been mention before its a close match and I still inclined to go with team 2 for 2 reasons again. This is base on Zombie Fluff and how it interacts with there perspective universes.
1) Shrike comes from 40k. In 40k we have Zombie Marines, there called Plague Marines. Basicaly Adeptus Astartes affected with Nurgles Rot (Thats the name of the Zombie Virus really) and are Zombies. However unlike mere mortals Plague Marines retain almost all the intellect. The only real difference in plagues is Nurgle has their devoted worship in 40k Thats really all. So Shrike infected should retain alot of his intellegance and alot of his abilty to melt into shadow. He is the Big Boss in a army of Solid Snake Space Marine. He can hide behind a Telephon Poll. The Only Person who could sense him would be Fett with his Helmet gear and Creed. The Other 2 would be surprise attack. He is just supernatural with the suprise attacks and blending. Also on his durabilty is even greater than a Space Marine, Plague Marines (SM Zombies) wattle thru missle fire unffected. Missil fire. Boba Fett with a 1 shot Missil wont cut it. this does not mean he cant be brought down thru mass fire but it will take more than what Boba has to take out the Halo and get thru his Zombie Astartes body.
2) Marvel Zombies are kinda the same thing here Right if not corrrect me and Ill withdraw this part. Marvel Zombies have shown complete inteligence and that would mean Cap, Wolvie and Gorgon should be able to plan and keep all their skills.
If this been stated in the 500000 word essays somewhere Im sry and retract it.
So the prob with team one is 1) Shrike takes 2-3 just to be killed by alone. 2) Cap, Wolvie, and Gorgon have Feel No Pain with Intellegance. 3) If still no Intellegance I belive in the argument that Muscle Memeory is skill and for Wolverine and Shrike there Muscle memeory expands hundreds of years. They should atill maintain mad skill. 4) Wesker and Sabes are the heaviest hitters here in taking Damage and Dealing it. Boba cant dish it but against a Plague Marine Shrike or Healing Factor Adamantium Wolvie to kill them with the Ammo he has. Giving Wolvie a Light Machine gun is ridiculas too. Snake Eyes is great in CC no despute but CC without Adamantium HF (Sabes) or HF/Speed/Stregth Combo (Wesker) againt CC Zombies like Shrike, Cap, Gorgon, Wolvie with just Katanas, Knife, and Frags is such a bad Idea. Personly Snake Eyes can only really evenly take is Cap. Even if the Zombies only have Muscle memery.
Anywho it bee no ez fight for the Zombies but the Zombies have the heavest Hitter in in a Halo wearing Plague Shrike and the Resistance suffer with Snake Eyes (Just a super bad2$$ human like Punisher but CC) armed with just basic weapons against guys who laugh at basic weapons... except for Cap.
Well that my veiw. Anything in here already covered let me know, it was sooooo much info to remember.
@Fetts: Again, saying they lose intelligence doesn't exactly quantify just how much they lose. Saying they lose A LOT of intelligence doesn't either. So again, it is up to us to interpret what you may have meant by that, and i do recall you saying that they have the intelligence to wield their weapons. @exlmagician this was stated in an inbox thread, so you didn't know this. Mine and my partner's arguments were based upon this fact. Also, there are a ton of zombies who's template this could be based upon, you can't just say "Oh they're exactly like Resident Evil zombies" or whatnot, because it was never specified. In a lot of the zombie material i've read/watched, most of them still retain a shred of their former selves, those parts of themselves that are innate and ingrained into their being. This i included in our argument also. Anyway, this whole thing is over already so not much point in arguing, i just wanted to make sure you were casting your vote for the right reasons.
@JediWaffles: I won't continue the argument, however I'd like to point out I didn't remain with only the RE zombies. I also pointed out Deadspace creatures/zombies, and 28 days/weeks Later. Its also a Romero factoid, zombies are commonly found in their normal state of being. Most all zombie lore says you retain some memory... and then you eat your loved ones. But just had to remind you I had not used the single example.
@CadenceV2: I'm just saying, I've already made it abundantly clear that there were to be no loopholes for the zombies to somehow get intelligence. I also told nickthedevil that these zombies are not like Marvel Zombies. I'm not trying to change your vote and I'm okay with you voting for Team Zombies. But I just find it unfair when somebody votes for Team Zombies for a reason that isn't even valid.
@CadenceV2: I'm just saying, I've already made it abundantly clear that there were to be no loopholes for the zombies to somehow get intelligence. I also told nickthedevil that these zombies are not like Marvel Zombies. I'm not trying to change your vote and I'm okay with you voting for Team Zombies. But I just find it unfair when somebody votes for Team Zombies for a reason that isn't even valid.
I hear ya. With our the Intelligence Team Resistance has a way better chance. But if we talk Muscle memory vs Intellegence = skill then the Zombie team like Wolvie and Shrike have over a hundred years of Combat experiance and training to still be a serious threat.
Now if we say there as intellegent as Walking Dead or Resident Evil T Virus Zombies then the Resistance Pwns them badly because they can just forever out think them or out run them.
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