Anyways here's my extremely controversial answer: in H2H probably 3-4 Olivers due to Cap's stats (and his own martial arts skills). With standard gear, 2 Olivers would take 10/10 against Cap.
Round 1: I think 2 should be enough. Three if he's off his game. Oliver's much more skilled but Cap has some insane physicals.
Round 2: I think 1 takes it 5/10. He's won't win if he sticks to regular Arrows, but his trick arrows pack like a 15-20 ton punch. That could disarm Cap and open him for attack. I'll say Cap has a narrow edge though. Just to be safe though, I'll say 2. Two will take it every time though.
Round 1: I think 2 should be enough. Three if he's off his game. Oliver's much more skilled but Cap has some insane physicals.
Round 2: I think 1 takes it 5/10. He's won't win if he sticks to regular Arrows, but his trick arrows pack like a 15-20 ton punch. That could disarm Cap and open him for attack. I'll say Cap has a narrow edge though. Just to be safe though, I'll say 2. Two will take it every time though.
I agree with almost everything, one exception being the bold part.
@hiddenlight: Yeah, Cap would deflect them no problem if he hit the Shield. I was thinking more along the lines of shooting the ground in front of him, or raining rubble from any ceiling or walls (not sure where they're fighting).
Round 1: Maybe 3. Oliver's more skilled, but Cap's no slouch himself, and he's got a significant physical edge. Ollie's had gear when he's gone up against enhanced opponents before, and that's how he's hurt them from what I've seen. He'll be hard pressed to put someone like Cap down
Round 2: 2 could maybe do it, 3's pretty certain. The shield makes Cap more dangerous, but Ollie's gear helps even the stat gap by giving him range. It'll take more than one Ollie to have any kind of certainty of getting past Cap's defenses
100% Serious. 1 Ollie is enough. 1, No plot, fully tactical, no holding back, Ollie is enough. If this fight happened in any random episode Cap would win. BUT if this was a season finale force Arrow he'd take it.
100% Serious. 1 Ollie is enough. 1, No plot, fully tactical, no holding back, Ollie is enough. If this fight happened in any random episode Cap would win. BUT if this was a season finale force Arrow he'd take it.
Didn't you say 'no plot'? Series finale force sounds like plot to me.
Last night's episode really did restore faith in Olivers capabilities.
Indeed.
I wasn't expecting him to outright stomp Merlyn like that, but dang.
1. That was a very, very, shitty fight.
2. I was hoping it was another stupidly elaborate plan. But I guess not.
3. It was an extremely shitty fight, like holy shit that was shit level fight.
4. Malcolm will have his revenge.
it wasn't a bad fight , it just showed oliver when focused can beat the best of best , shows oliver came a long way from season 1 , I'm convinced nobody can beat him in a sword battle outside of katanna since he's already beat maybe 2 of the 3 best
Last night's episode really did restore faith in Olivers capabilities.
Indeed.
I wasn't expecting him to outright stomp Merlyn like that, but dang.
1. That was a very, very, shitty fight.
2. I was hoping it was another stupidly elaborate plan. But I guess not.
3. It was an extremely shitty fight, like holy shit that was shit level fight.
4. Malcolm will have his revenge.
I can see how you would hate the fight. I wish Malcolm could still be considered a threat (and a part of me hopes Malcolm will either improve or prove this was just a one off) but I liked the fight. As mentioned I think it showed how much Olivers improved, and its about damn time Oliver started kicking ass this season after all the jobbing he did....
EDIT: Just for the record it wasn't the best fight in the series (far from it) or even the season. I just like what the fight represents and think its a good refresher of what Oliver should be at this point.
@birdman400: @jashro44: It was a pretty bad fight any way you look at it. If Ollie has become superior to Merlyn, it shouldn't have been by THAT much. Also, compare the choreography to their previous fights, the used to look skilled. This fight was practically brawler with swords. Ollie dropped Merlyn, twice, with just standard punches.
This was a huge let down. How do you go from that first Ras vs Ollie fight, to this.....its just ridiculous. Someone was just half assing it.
@birdman400: @jashro44: It was a pretty bad fight any way you look at it. If Ollie has become superior to Merlyn, it shouldn't have been by THAT much. Also, compare the choreography to their previous fights, the used to look skilled. This fight was practically brawler with swords. Ollie dropped Merlyn, twice, with just standard punches.
This was a huge let down. How do you go from that first Ras vs Ollie fight, to this.....its just ridiculous. Someone was just half assing it.
Oliver was suppose to become the next Ra's and he actually did learn all of Ra's combat strategies and likely many of his combat techniques as well. And Oliver has always been a quick learner. He learned that pressure point from Yao Fei pretty easily for example. Likewise even in season 1 Malcolm stated the reason Oliver couldn't beat him was because he lacked the conviction, and that is why Malcolm planned for Oliver to fight Ra's in a trail by combat. Because Oliver post season 2 was suppose to be better than him already because he had the conviction he didn't have in season one, he just never had a chance to prove it because they never fought (I think we can at least conclude they were likely close at this point, so even if Malcolm was better the gap is probably not that big). And on top of already supposedly being better than Malcolm Oliver received additional training from Ra's, someone who Malcolm was afraid of.
I don't think its impossible to believe Oliver stomped Malcolm here as long as we are willing to accept Malcolms statement that Oliver couldn't beat him because he lacked conviction, and considering all of Olivers league training. And if we chalk up Olivers jobbing earlier in the season due to either his morals or just him being rusty. We'll wait and see how the rest of the season plays out.
I agree with you on the choreography. I felt like the last good choreographed fight was Thea VS Andy....
1 is enough. You can't compare a Mirakuru user with an MCU super soldier, Mirakuru is even more powerful and the users are conventionally invincible. Captain America is more similar to Damian Darhk, AKA Oliver can beat him.
The skill gap is tremendous. I love Captain America as much as everyone else, the MCU is my favorite version of the character, but it's just true. Oliver was already a slightly better fighter than Captain America is now, way back in season 1. But now we're midway through season 4, and the level of threats he's been faced with keep on improving, now he is exponentially better. Not only can current Oliver curbstomp his season 1 self, but he can curbstomp characters (Malcolm) who can curbstomp characters (Nyssa) who can curbstomp his season 1 self. The food chain is just too high, with no enhanced stats Nyssa would make short work of Captain America, and even with his enhanced stats, Cap wouldn't be able to stomp Nyssa because she's still a much better fighter than him. But when Oliver is that many levels above Nyssa, his skill leaves Captain America in the dust.
Darhk's done nothing to suggest he's on Cap's level without using his tk. His best feat is throwing Ollie and denting a pole (and that could have easily been with a tk boost-meaning his base stats aren't at that level)
Darhk's done nothing to suggest he's on Cap's level without using his tk. His best feat is throwing Ollie and denting a pole (and that could have easily been with a tk boost-meaning his base stats aren't at that level)
He also smashed Oliver's head through a metal box. With the handlebar, that was a thick, steel pole rooted into the train that Darhk just casually tossed Oliver's body into with one arm. The pole snapped in half, even though Darhk threw Oliver from several feet away. That's actually a terrific feat, Captain America hasn't proven he can break metal so casually. Their strength is similar but Darhk is multiple times faster, thus making him overall the more physically powerful opponent.
Iirc the pole wasn't that thick, and he didn't snap it, it just bent
Cap's got several movies of consistent strength feats: casually lifting motercycles, smashing Ultron bots, overpowering Winter Soldier's metal arm, sending people flying with blows, lifting that steel beam off Bucky, and more. 1 or 2 feats for Darhk (which could just be the result of tk) aren't enough to put him on Cap's level of strength and durability
@arcus1: Have you ever ridden a train or a bus? Those poles are thick. Too thick for me to wrap my hand all the way around. And they're completely solid. Snapping that metal all the way through in half, let alone with one arm, let alone just by tossing somebody into it from several feet away, is perfectly on par with the level Cap is portrayed at. Smashing the metal box with Oliver's head, too, is on the same level as what Cap would do. Cap might have MORE feats but there's a certain thing called quality over quantity. The two are on the same tier, except Darhk is many times faster.
And the pole totally did snap, check it out.
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casually lifting motercycles, smashing Ultron bots, overpowering Winter Soldier's metal arm, sending people flying with blows, lifting that steel beam off Bucky, and more.
All impressive, but you have to admit, not radically out of Darhk's league. And that's my whole point, the two are on the same physical tier, or at least strength, with Darhk being multiple times faster and therefore having the physical advantage overall. Even if Captain America had the strength edge slightly, Darhk would still have the physical advantage overall.
@arcus1: Have you ever ridden a train or a bus? Those poles are thick. Too thick for me to wrap my hand all the way around. And they're completely solid. Snapping that metal all the way through in half, let alone with one arm, let alone just by tossing somebody into it from several feet away, is perfectly on par with the level Cap is portrayed at. Smashing the metal box with Oliver's head, too, is on the same level as what Cap would do. Cap might have MORE feats but there's a certain thing called quality over quantity. The two are on the same tier, except Darhk is many times faster.
And the pole totally did snap, check it out.
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casually lifting motercycles, smashing Ultron bots, overpowering Winter Soldier's metal arm, sending people flying with blows, lifting that steel beam off Bucky, and more.
All impressive, but you have to admit, not radically out of Darhk's league. And that's my whole point, the two are on the same physical tier, or at least strength, with Darhk being multiple times faster and therefore having the physical advantage overall. Even if Captain America had the strength edge slightly, Darhk would still have the physical advantage overall.
You're correct, it did snap. I missed that
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But you'll understand if that's nowhere near enough to convince me that Dhark is Cap's physical equal
I am aware of what quality over quantity is. However, those two feats for Dhark are not the same as Cap's best feats. In the fight where Oliver beat him in h2h, he showed no evidence of superhuman stats
The idea that Ollie is anywhere NEAR as "skilled" as Cap is absolutely ridiculous. At no point in time has he demonstrated anything of the sort. And no one here is gonna be able to refute that statment at all...watch.
@arcus1: Have you ever ridden a train or a bus? Those poles are thick. Too thick for me to wrap my hand all the way around. And they're completely solid. Snapping that metal all the way through in half, let alone with one arm, let alone just by tossing somebody into it from several feet away, is perfectly on par with the level Cap is portrayed at. Smashing the metal box with Oliver's head, too, is on the same level as what Cap would do. Cap might have MORE feats but there's a certain thing called quality over quantity. The two are on the same tier, except Darhk is many times faster.
All impressive, but you have to admit, not radically out of Darhk's league. And that's my whole point, the two are on the same physical tier, or at least strength, with Darhk being multiple times faster and therefore having the physical advantage overall. Even if Captain America had the strength edge slightly, Darhk would still have the physical advantage overall.
Wat?...
Dude Darhk is no where near Cap level physically. The pole in the video is tops 6" O.D and I guarantee you the gauge metal used on it is nothing substantial most likely 1/8th" steel at most, there is no way its a solid metal bar. He did not snap the metal. The bottom base/mounting plate came off the ground from the impact of Olliver rolling into it and then the pole slipped off the base plate, it did not "snap" off. There is usually some type of set screw(s) to hold the pole's in place at the base plate, he most likely broke the screw(s) and it slipped off. If by tossing him several feet you mean he tossed him like 3 feet then okay. Oliver's knee lands roughly 3ish feet away from Darhk's position and then Oliver rolls into the pole.
And what metal box? Are you talking about the metal shelf that Darhk puts Ollie's head into?? That's a basic extremely thin gauge metal shelf. Most of them are made up off 16 or 18 gauge metal. To give you an idea of how thick that is..
around 1-1.5mm thick. That's what the shelf was made up of. Any strong dude could take a guys head and dent that metal and make the thin hinges/ bolts holding it on the wall to giveway.
All of the feats that @arcus1 mentioned are of far more quality then these 2 feats that Darhk has. Cap has a very large strength advantage and they are not close to being in the same tier.
But you'll understand if that's nowhere near enough to convince me that Dhark is Cap's physical equal
I am aware of what quality over quantity is. However, those two feats for Dhark are not the same as Cap's best feats. In the fight where Oliver beat him in h2h, he showed no evidence of superhuman stats
Well in that first gif Ultron was flying towards Captain America with thrusters at full speed and trying to tackle him. Cap redirected his own motion, it wasn't a feat of strength but it was fantastic skill. If Cap keeps that up in Civil War (he seems to genuinely get greater with each film) then I'll freely admit to the skill gap being less than it is right now. However, FOR now, the gap is quite large, hence my reasoning for Ollie defeating him.
Likewise with strength, Captain America's consistent strength capabilities are similar to Darhk, only slightly greater. Although he has high end showings, like the motorcycle throw, which indicate he's going through quite an amp. If he really does hold back that helicopter during Civil War, again, I will freely admit that the gap has widened. But it needs to become consistent first, as of now with his four film appearances, Captain America's strength isn't really portrayed as very differently from Darhk's. He just has one or two high end showings; the equivalent of 10-20 seconds in over 500 minutes of film.
The motorcycle feat is phenomenal, but I would definitely admit Steve has far greater lifting strength than Darhk. Their striking and battle strength is what is on par. Again, Steve has no battle feats which are radically greater than what Darhk did to Ollie on the train. One of his best striking feats is lightly smacking a Chitauri with his shield in The Avengers and sending it into a car several feet away hard enough to bust the windshield. Almost identical to Darhk onehanding Ollie through the pole. The gif you posted shows a full force Spartan kick from Cap sending a man 20 feet away and smashing into the wall; but that's a full force Spartan kick, compared to a light smack or a onehanded shove, and even though Cap sent the guy far, the guy was a weak canon fodder (compared to an alien Chitauri and peak human Green Arrow) and he didn't even end up breaking anything, he merely traveled far. So the previous two feats are definitely superior.
Destroying the Quinjet was also very impressive but not very strength related. The shield makes things unquantifiable, we know that in the comics Steve can use his shield to effect powerhouses. It's because of the shield's strength, not his own.
And no Steve WASN'T fine after that grenade launched him. He was unconscious for the entire highway fight and only recovered in time for the final duel with Bucky. Plus it's a durability feat anyway. I thought we were talking about strength? Darhk is also superhumanly durable, he was the only person in a room full of hardened soldiers not crippled by the Canary Cry, in fact he wasn't even effected by it at all, and this was in the same scene where Laurel used the Canary Cry to break reinforced glass. In the next scene Darhk completely tanked an explosive/flashbang arrow with a smile on his face, the same arrow which completely blew up reinforced doors and a shipping container. Darhk >>> reinforced glass and metal. He is on Cap's level.
Dude Darhk is no where near Cap level physically. The pole in the video is tops 6" O.D and I guarantee you the gauge metal used on it is nothing substantial most likely 1/8th" steel at most, there is no way its a solid metal bar. He did not snap the metal. The bottom base/mounting plate came off the ground from the impact of Olliver rolling into it and then the pole slipped off the base plate, it did not "snap" off. There is usually some type of set screw(s) to hold the pole's in place at the base plate, he most likely broke the screw(s) and it slipped off. If by tossing him several feet you mean he tossed him like 3 feet then okay. Oliver's knee lands roughly 3ish feet away from Darhk's position and then Oliver rolls into the pole.
And what metal box? Are you talking about the metal shelf that Darhk puts Ollie's head into?? That's a basic extremely thin gauge metal shelf. Most of them are made up off 16 or 18 gauge metal. To give you an idea of how thick that is..
around 1-1.5mm thick. That's what the shelf was made up of. Any strong dude could take a guys head and dent that metal and make the thin hinges/ bolts holding it on the wall to giveway.
All of the feats that @arcus1 mentioned are of far more quality then these 2 feats that Darhk has. Cap has a very large strength advantage and they are not close to being in the same tier.
Darhk totally did snap the pole. If you watch the video you can even HEAR it break, and he bent the rest of the metal pole all the way up at an angle just from the force of Ollie crashing into it.
It did not pop from the base, the pole itself clearly broke.
It's a great feat, and it's the fact that Darhk did this totally effortlessly without even exerting his power, from several feet away (Stephen Amell is like 6 feet tall, so the distance was a little bit more than 3 feet) that puts it on par with any instance of Cap launching people, or busting through submarine glass, or denting a car, or any of his other striking feats.
I don't really understand what you're trying to prove with that graph. Thanks for the exact measurement of the pole's thickness, but it doesn't change or contradict anything I said. That's a solid, metal pole, if Steve casually shoved somebody with one arm into a pole like that, he wouldn't accomplish much more than what Darhk did. The feat is totally on par with Steve's level.
Well in that first gif Ultron was flying towards Captain America with thrusters at full speed and trying to tackle him. Cap redirected his own motion, it wasn't a feat of strength but it was fantastic skill. If Cap keeps that up in Civil War (he seems to genuinely get greater with each film) then I'll freely admit to the skill gap being less than it is right now. However, FOR now, the gap is quite large, hence my reasoning for Ollie defeating him.
Likewise with strength, Captain America's consistent strength capabilities are similar to Darhk, only slightly greater. Although he has high end showings, like the motorcycle throw, which indicate he's going through quite an amp. If he really does hold back that helicopter during Civil War, again, I will freely admit that the gap has widened. But it needs to become consistent first, as of now with his four film appearances, Captain America's strength isn't really portrayed as very differently from Darhk's. He just has one or two high end showings; the equivalent of 10-20 seconds in over 500 minutes of film.
The motorcycle feat is phenomenal, but I would definitely admit Steve has far greater lifting strength than Darhk. Their striking and battle strength is what is on par. Again, Steve has no battle feats which are radically greater than what Darhk did to Ollie on the train. One of his best striking feats is lightly smacking a Chitauri with his shield in The Avengers and sending it into a car several feet away hard enough to bust the windshield. Almost identical to Darhk onehanding Ollie through the pole. The gif you posted shows a full force Spartan kick from Cap sending a man 20 feet away and smashing into the wall; but that's a full force Spartan kick, compared to a light smack or a onehanded shove, and even though Cap sent the guy far, the guy was a weak canon fodder (compared to an alien Chitauri and peak human Green Arrow) and he didn't even end up breaking anything, he merely traveled far. So the previous two feats are definitely superior.
Destroying the Quinjet was also very impressive but not very strength related. The shield makes things unquantifiable, we know that in the comics Steve can use his shield to effect powerhouses. It's because of the shield's strength, not his own.
And no Steve WASN'T fine after that grenade launched him. He was unconscious for the entire highway fight and only recovered in time for the final duel with Bucky. Plus it's a durability feat anyway. I thought we were talking about strength? Darhk is also superhumanly durable, he was the only person in a room full of hardened soldiers not crippled by the Canary Cry, in fact he wasn't even effected by it at all, and this was in the same scene where Laurel used the Canary Cry to break reinforced glass. In the next scene Darhk completely tanked an explosive/flashbang arrow with a smile on his face, the same arrow which completely blew up reinforced doors and a shipping container. Darhk >>> reinforced glass and metal. He is on Cap's level.
So we count Darhk's high end feats but not Cap's?
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Where's Darhk's enhanced strength in this fight? He punches Ollie in the face twice, doing no more damage than a regular peak human might do.
Cap can fight guys like Loki (an Asgardian who's fought Thor) and Ultron (who even in his first form was fighting Iron Man). Sure he was out-matched physically, but the fact that his physicals were enough to contend at all puts him at another level
As for the shield, it clearly does have at least something to do with his own strength. If it was all about the shield, Black Widow would have been able to use it to rip through Ultron bots. But she couldn't.
I guess we don't see what happened to Cap
That was a flashbang arrow Malcom used, not an explosive arrow
As far as durability, Cap's tanked hits from Ultron and Loki, as well as blasts from Ultron and Iron Man. He's above Darhk's durability (which would obviously come into play by making him harder to injure)
@arcus1: Captain America in MCU is literally superhuman. Saying 2-3 weaponless Green Arrows can do better than 10 armed SHIELD agents (whom Steve overpowered in the elevator) is absurd. It will only take one punch, ONE PUNCH, for Cap to KO Green Arrow and break his bones. Whereas it would take someone like Ultron or the Winter Soldier (or Iron Man) to actually bloody & KO Captain America.
@arcus1: Captain America in MCU is literally superhuman. Saying 2-3 weaponless Green Arrows can do better than 10 armed SHIELD agents (whom Steve overpowered in the elevator) is absurd. It will only take one punch, ONE PUNCH, for Cap to KO Green Arrow and break his bones. Whereas it would take someone like Ultron or the Winter Soldier (or Iron Man) to actually bloody & KO Captain America.
There's people saying 1 or 2 could do it, why'd you pick out me?
3 Ollies would definitely be better than a group of random SHIELD agents
For what it's worth I think 3 might have been a low estimate, unarmed I could easily see it taking more to be certain
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