Gandalf, both
Gandalf the Grey vs Severus Snape
@steelhound56 said:
Sorry for the confusion, I was referring to Gandalf being able to dodge the spell, not the Balrog.
Regardless, yes, the Balrog would fall to Snape.
I would debate a drawn out duel would tip the scale in Gandalf's favor, given his superior endurance when compared to Snape.
Only in a physical melee, not necessarily a magical duel. While largely unimportant, Snape was also the duelling champion, signifying he at least should be capable of handling a duel with Gandalf, and I highly doubt the duel will be lasting for any longer than a few minutes, which, itself, already seems to be going overboard.
I'll concede if Snape gets in a clear shot with the killing curse, it could very well end the fight. The only issue we have here is the strength of Gandalf's shield. It took a hit from a powerful demon's sword (apparently constructed from some sort of fire/sorcery), but can it take a hit from a powerful spell fired by a decently powerful wizard.
The Istari Shield has deflected a featless sword, not an instakill. Deflecting something magical doesn't necessarily equate to being capable of deflecting one of, if not the, most powerful curses ever. Until the Sword has been shown to be an utter instakill, or even having any especially impressive feats, deflecting it isn't going to be a tide-turner.
@ShootingNova Would a killing curse work on Gandalf? Appearently since it hasn't been used above anything like humans orcs or creatures means it won't work on Gandalf. Is there any indication that a killing curse, of any type that Snape could throw won't work because Gandalf is simply an Istari? I am looking to you to settle this battle once and for all.
@MasterJohn: Lol bro, sorry if I've been annoying. I thought you were trolling.. I didn't seriously expect anyone to believe snape stood a chance against Gandalf. But if you say so, let's assume that it'll work if it hits Gandalf for now. So Mr. John, state your case.
@PrinceAragorn1 said:
@MasterJohn: Lol bro, sorry if I've been annoying. I thought you were trolling.. I didn't seriously expect anyone to believe snape stood a chance against Gandalf. But if you say so, let's assume that it'll work if it hits Gandalf for now. So Mr. John, state your case.
We have 2 options if that curse hits Gandalf... 1. Eru sends him back because his mission wasn't complete (he'd come back as the white, that's not an option unless he can be brought back as the grey). 2. He remains dead and eru doesn't bring him back and snape wins. These are the only explinations I can give. Avada Kedavra is one of the most powerful killing curses ever. No doubt it would kill Gandalf upon contact as it killed Dumbledore. And that's my case.
@MasterJohn said:
@PrinceAragorn1 said:
@MasterJohn: Lol bro, sorry if I've been annoying. I thought you were trolling.. I didn't seriously expect anyone to believe snape stood a chance against Gandalf. But if you say so, let's assume that it'll work if it hits Gandalf for now. So Mr. John, state your case.
We have 2 options if that curse hits Gandalf... 1. Eru sends him back because his mission wasn't complete (he'd come back as the white, that's not an option unless he can be brought back as the grey). 2. He remains dead and eru doesn't bring him back and snape wins. These are the only explinations I can give. Avada Kedavra is one of the most powerful killing curses ever. No doubt it would kill Gandalf upon contact as it killed Dumbledore. And that's my case.
Why wouldn't Gandalf Dodge the curse? It's not required he should block it, harry has done so earlier when he fought voldemart..
@PrinceAragorn1 said:
@MasterJohn said:
@PrinceAragorn1 said:
@MasterJohn: Lol bro, sorry if I've been annoying. I thought you were trolling.. I didn't seriously expect anyone to believe snape stood a chance against Gandalf. But if you say so, let's assume that it'll work if it hits Gandalf for now. So Mr. John, state your case.
We have 2 options if that curse hits Gandalf... 1. Eru sends him back because his mission wasn't complete (he'd come back as the white, that's not an option unless he can be brought back as the grey). 2. He remains dead and eru doesn't bring him back and snape wins. These are the only explinations I can give. Avada Kedavra is one of the most powerful killing curses ever. No doubt it would kill Gandalf upon contact as it killed Dumbledore. And that's my case.
Why wouldn't Gandalf Dodge the curse? It's not required he should block it, harry has done so earlier when he fought voldemart..
Exactly. Its not like the thing is 100% bloody accurate. We're just assuming Gandalf is going to stand there and let the curse hit him???
@PrinceAragorn1 We aren't talking Harry Potter, we are talking Gandalf.
There has been no arguments against Snape's psychic spells except "I believe that a spell like that couldn't effect a istari" which is not backed up by evidence or feats just speculation. If that hits Gandalf, he's helpless. All snape needs to do is force Gandalf to take off his ring of power by manipulating his body, then Snape can have him throw down his staff, and dominate him effortlessly.
@MasterJohn said:
@PrinceAragorn1 We aren't talking Harry Potter, we are talking Gandalf.
There has been no arguments against Snape's psychic spells except "I believe that a spell like that couldn't effect a istari" which is not backed up by evidence or feats just speculation. If that hits Gandalf, he's helpless. All snape needs to do is force Gandalf to take off his ring of power by manipulating his body, then Snape can have him throw down his staff, and dominate him effortlessly.
I know who we're talking about. I'm just giving examples that it can be dodged.
Same Goes for the other spells. Even if they do affect him, he's not going to stand there and get hit. Also, Not like snape is the only one doing offensive. Gandalf could throw snape around as he was doing to saruman. Snape has already been knocked out cold by getting hit on the head (Part 3). Or, what if he yanks his wand away by telekinesis? Snape hasn't shown magic without wand as far as I remember.. Dumbledore is the only one who has.
@PrinceAragorn1
Even if they do affect him, he's not going to stand there and get hit. Also, Not like snape is the only one doing offensive. Gandalf could throw snape around as he was doing to saruman. Snape has already been knocked out cold by getting hit on the head (Part 3). Or, what if he yanks his wand away by telekinesis? Snape hasn't shown magic without wand as far as I remember.. Dumbledore is the only one who has.
If a psychic spell hits Gandalf, which he does not need to do vocally and can do it by invoking thought, Gandalf has already been hit and he's in deep trouble. Plus, Snape can cast a spell much quicker then Gandalf can move his staff. Honestly, that staff of Gandalf won't help unless he tries to hurl fire in response to Snape, which snape could deflect with his wand.
Gandalf can not use staffless telekensis. Snape's hit would be too quick before Gandalf can pick up his staff, move it to the side and swipe it at his hand. So let me drawl out a scenario.
"Gandalf enters the room"
Gandalf: Snape, you will fall.
Snape: "Quickly drawls wand and mutters avada kedavra.
Gandalf: " rolls over
Snape: Legilimens!"
"Gandalf is then caught by the occlumency spell, his mind is penetrated and Snape forces him to break his staff and makes him rip off his ring, then dominates him"
Snape: Goodbye, gandalf.
"He then snaps gandalf's neck and throws him across the room"
Alright, and going off of Snape's feats he can do this type of thing. And it wouldn't take him a lot.
@MasterJohn said:
@PrinceAragorn1
Even if they do affect him, he's not going to stand there and get hit. Also, Not like snape is the only one doing offensive. Gandalf could throw snape around as he was doing to saruman. Snape has already been knocked out cold by getting hit on the head (Part 3). Or, what if he yanks his wand away by telekinesis? Snape hasn't shown magic without wand as far as I remember.. Dumbledore is the only one who has.
If a psychic spell hits Gandalf, which he does not need to do vocally and can do it by invoking thought, Gandalf has already been hit and he's in deep trouble. Plus, Snape can cast a spell much quicker then Gandalf can move his staff. Honestly, that staff of Gandalf won't help unless he tries to hurl fire in response to Snape, which snape could deflect with his wand.
Gandalf can not use staffless telekensis. Snape's hit would be too quick before Gandalf can pick up his staff, move it to the side and swipe it at his hand. So let me drawl out a scenario.
"Gandalf enters the room"
Gandalf: Snape, you will fall.
Snape: "Quickly drawls wand and mutters avada kedavra.
Gandalf: " rolls over
Snape: Legilimens!"
"Gandalf is then caught by the occlumency spell, his mind is penetrated and Snape forces him to break his staff and makes him rip off his ring, then dominates him"
Snape: Goodbye, gandalf.
"He then snaps gandalf's neck and throws him across the room"
Alright, and going off of Snape's feats he can do this type of thing. And it wouldn't take him a lot.
Very disagreeable.
Even if he does not need to say anything vocally, how is that related to Gandalf being hit already? Casting spell requires more time than merely moving wand/staff. Why is the staff not going to help Gandalf? weird.
In case you didn't notice, Gandalf carries his staff around with him. So staffless telekinesis, whether he can do it or not, is not required. Snape is nowhere near quick to hit Gandalf before he can react. It's quite the other way round. Here are the problems in your scenario:
1. After sidestepping the Avada kedavra, Why will he not dodge the consecutive spell? What, he will think dodging second spell is not required? unlikely.
2. After saying spell "Legilimens", why would Gandalf get hit by that, and how is he "Getting caught by the occlumency spell"? Where does occlumency step in? And, Legilimens is not used to make a person obey you. It's for reading the person's mind/memories. I don't see why will Gandalf break his staff, rip off his ring, and Get dominated, because snape read his mind, that is, by some miracle he manages to Get hit by it.
On the other hand, Gandalf enters the room, snaps snape's wand away from him by telekinesis, and proceeds to bang him on the walls till his head cracks open. A wandless snape is much more helpless than a staffless Gandalf, it's pretty much over if it comes to hand to hand.
@PrinceAragorn1
Even if he does not need to say anything vocally, how is that related to Gandalf being hit already? Casting spell requires more time than merely moving wand/staff. Why is the staff not going to help Gandalf? weird.
Snape does not require lots of movement or any voice effect to cast pshycic/illusion spells. He also knows what Gandalf will do before he does it. This should give him a edge.
In case you didn't notice, Gandalf carries his staff around with him. So staffless telekinesis, whether he can do it or not, is not required. Snape is nowhere near quick to hit Gandalf before he can react. It's quite the other way round. Here are the problems in your scenario:
So gandalf is quicker then Snape? Proof?
2:56 that's more faster then Gandalf can move.
This seems signifigently fast.
This also is fast. So gandalf isn't coming in disarming him instantly. That has never been his first tactic in battle, not even when he fought Saruman, and Saruman took Gandalf's staff. Snape will get a spell in first. He could do telekenetic spell, that would narrow the odds between him and Gandalf.
2. After saying spell "Legilimens", why would Gandalf get hit by that, and how is he "Getting caught by the occlumency spell"? Where does occlumency step in? And, Legilimens is not used to make a person obey you. It's for reading the person's mind/memories. I don't see why will Gandalf break his staff, rip off his ring, and Get dominated, because snape read his mind, that is, by some miracle he manages to Get hit by it.
Snape invaded Harry's mind with thoughts and made it hurt, one of his mental assault spells. Legilimens is occlumency.
On the other hand, Gandalf enters the room, snaps snape's wand away from him by telekinesis, and proceeds to bang him on the walls till his head cracks open. A wandless snape is much more helpless than a staffless Gandalf, it's pretty much over if it comes to hand to hand.
This scenario is explained in the post above.
@MasterJohn said:
@PrinceAragorn1
Even if he does not need to say anything vocally, how is that related to Gandalf being hit already? Casting spell requires more time than merely moving wand/staff. Why is the staff not going to help Gandalf? weird.
Snape does not require lots of movement or any voice effect to cast pshycic/illusion spells. He also knows what Gandalf will do before he does it. This should give him a edge.
In case you didn't notice, Gandalf carries his staff around with him. So staffless telekinesis, whether he can do it or not, is not required. Snape is nowhere near quick to hit Gandalf before he can react. It's quite the other way round. Here are the problems in your scenario:
So gandalf is quicker then Snape? Proof?
2:56 that's more faster then Gandalf can move.
This seems signifigently fast.
This also is fast. So gandalf isn't coming in disarming him instantly. That has never been his first tactic in battle, not even when he fought Saruman, and Saruman took Gandalf's staff. Snape will get a spell in first. He could do telekenetic spell, that would narrow the odds between him and Gandalf.
2. After saying spell "Legilimens", why would Gandalf get hit by that, and how is he "Getting caught by the occlumency spell"? Where does occlumency step in? And, Legilimens is not used to make a person obey you. It's for reading the person's mind/memories. I don't see why will Gandalf break his staff, rip off his ring, and Get dominated, because snape read his mind, that is, by some miracle he manages to Get hit by it.
Snape invaded Harry's mind with thoughts and made it hurt, one of his mental assault spells. Legilimens is occlumency.
On the other hand, Gandalf enters the room, snaps snape's wand away from him by telekinesis, and proceeds to bang him on the walls till his head cracks open. A wandless snape is much more helpless than a staffless Gandalf, it's pretty much over if it comes to hand to hand.
This scenario is explained in the post above.
Snape has no way to know what Gandalf will do before hand. Stop making things up. No wizard in harry potter has precog.
He does not require lot of movements, but not any less than flick of the staff.
About speed, Gandalf blocked arrows and axes thrown by legolas and gimli nearly point blank. Why'd he have trouble with movements that slow? none of the two videos posted show anything impressive in speed. Not to someone who can block arrows point-blank.
Gandalf does not need to disarm him instantly. He can bang him on the wall as he did with saruman. Why will snape get a spell in first? No reason at all.
Next. Snape invaded harry's mind, and harry fell down on his knees. The floor hurt. Not mind-reading. Read again.
You need to get your facts straight first. Legilimens is not the spell for occlumency. They are exactly opposite. Occlumency is blocking out the legilimens, who's trying to invade. Read again. There is no such a thing as "Getting caught in the occlumency"
You've explained nothing. What is to stop him from banging snape around?
And next, snape cannot do anything without his wand. Gandalf can slash his head off, on the other hand.
Try again.
@MasterJohn: I don't understand, how is that relevant to the matter at hand? The Killing Curse has not failed on a target due to their status, aside from the love sacrifice which Gandalf isn't getting here. There is nothing better than humans and similarly levelled beings in HP, so it's not going to be possible to try it on Istari. Generally, in battle threads, everybody's powers are supposed to work unless they are countered by the opposition, so I see no reason why it isn't working here.
@steelhound56: I am still waiting for your response.
This thread has an offensive amount of straw-manning even on the first page.
I'd say Gandalf because I'd rather have a drink with him.
@MasterJohn said:
@ghostrider fan1 said:
@MasterJohn: why couldnt he do that? sure, he did it to Saruman when he was the white, someone who is of the same kind as him, but not a human before he became the white?
Saruman was apart of the ORDER. Gandalf was kicking him out of the order.
"'I did not give you leave to go,' said Gandalf sternly. 'I have not finished. You have become a fool, Saruman, and yet pitiable. You might still have turned away from folly and evil, and have been of service. But you choose to stay and gnaw the ends of your old plots. Stay then! But I warn you: you will not easily come out again. Not unless the dark hands of the East stretch out to take you, Saruman!' he cried, and his voice grew in power and authority. 'Behold, I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed. I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death. You have no colour now, and I cast you from the order and from the Council.' He raised his hand, and spoke slowly in a clear cold voice. 'Saruman, your staff is broken.' There was a crack, and the staff split asunder in Saruman's hand, and the head of it fell down at Gandalf's feet. 'Go!' said Gandalf. With a cry Saruman fell back and crawled away." - Lord of the Rings; The Two Towers.
I've made my point.
I know this is an older post in this thread, but I first wanted to point out the fallacy being used here.
You used the fallacy "shifting the burden of proof". And I don't mean that in an offensive way, I am just stating a fact. Gandalf breaks an object. You say that the fact that he was kicking Saruman out of the order is proof that he cannot do this in normal situations. People then said that's not true, and you asked them to prove you wrong. That is shifting the burden, because you are the first one to make a claim, and instead of providing proof, you have asked other people to prove you wrong. There is no proof that Gandalf was empowered in any way to accomplish this feat, and he broke an object that is harder to break than a wand. There is no statement anywhere in that paragraph that this is some kind of special power unique to that situation.
Now that that's out of the way, on to my real points. There's a great deal of misconceptions about what Gandalf is and what he can do.
1. There is no difference in power between Gandalf the White, and Gandalf the Grey. It's just a rank. Gandalf always possessed more power than Saruman, (their fight in the movie didn't happen and was bogus) a fact which Saruman was very aware of according to Tolkien. Gandalf possesses more power than he showed even as Gandalf the White though. Back when Gandalf was called Olórin the Valar decided that the Istari should go to Middle Earth to aid the races there through council. Gandalf's father, Eru, (the supreme being of LOTR) put an extra restriction on Gandalf. He asked Gandalf to limit himself in the use of his powers. He was going to Middle Earth as a councilor, not as a warrior archangel designed to solve all their problems for them. Gandalf holds back out of respect for his father. To that end, he is basically as powerful as he needs to be, up to a certain point, which is still unknown because that's how Tolkien writes. Basically though, Balrogs are the same species as Gandalf, except they're a lesser version that's far younger, didn't learn directly under the Valar lords for thousands of years, don't possess a ring of power, and can't wield the power of the Flame of Anor. Anything they can do, he can do better, even holding back.
2. For me, this battle is about morals. If Gandalf has his morals fully on, and refuses to break his oath, then Snape might just win. If it's morals off Gandalf, I just don't see Snape winning against what's basically a super Balrog with a ring of power and an unlimited power source.
3. Gandalf's powers are vague. You yourself have pointed this out. To be perfectly honest, I think Gandalf shouldn't be allowed in battles on this site. The powers of any Maia+ being in LOTR are essentially unknown to the point of being unquantifiable. Tolkien never finished all the stories of Arda, and his writing style was always vague. If he'd ever written the battle of Dagor Dagorath, we'd probably have a lot more interesting feats to work with, but alas we don't. Gandalf is a being that if we go strictly by personal feats he's a low end street leveler. But it's been implied that he is nearly the equal of beings that have done things like create the sun. This either results in him being extremely lowballed or highballed. Gandalf isn't exactly made for comic vine battles. I seriously wonder how Tolkien would react if he saw a Snape vs Gandalf argument. Would you argue that Snape could beat Aulë? http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Aul%C3%AB I think if a reasonable person read Aulë's wiki article they would say he could beat Snape, but it's very unlikely they could prove that through feats. LOTR in general just isn't very compatible with comic vine.
Note: I will not debate movie versions. While I love Peter Jackson's movies, he is a moron when it comes to lore. How did he get Anduril confused with the Banner of Elendil?
@ShootingNova said:
@MasterJohn: I don't understand, how is that relevant to the matter at hand? The Killing Curse has not failed on a target due to their status, aside from the love sacrifice which Gandalf isn't getting here. There is nothing better than humans and similarly levelled beings in HP, so it's not going to be possible to try it on Istari. Generally, in battle threads, everybody's powers are supposed to work unless they are countered by the opposition, so I see no reason why it isn't working here.
And my last question to you is, who wins? These arguments are getting useless.
@MasterJohn: I'm still waiting for your answer as well.
@PrinceAragorn1 said:
@MasterJohn: I'm still waiting for your answer as well.
You'll get it, after I read your ridiculous wall of post.
@PrinceAragorn1
You used the fallacy "shifting the burden of proof". And I don't mean that in an offensive way, I am just stating a fact. Gandalf breaks an object. You say that the fact that he was kicking Saruman out of the order is proof that he cannot do this in normal situations. People then said that's not true, and you asked them to prove you wrong. That is shifting the burden, because you are the first one to make a claim, and instead of providing proof, you have asked other people to prove you wrong. There is no proof that Gandalf was empowered in any way to accomplish this feat, and he broke an object that is harder to break than a wand. There is no statement anywhere in that paragraph that this is some kind of special power unique to that situation.
Now that that's out of the way, on to my real points. There's a great deal of misconceptions about what Gandalf is and what he can do.
What? I gave clear proof that the only reason Gandalf had the power to break the staff is because he was kicking Saruman out of the order. There's no indication he can do that outside of anyone in the order. I gave you canon proof about that. Beg to differ? Show me proof. I don't care about a burdenb of proof, if you have no proof and I do my argument is much stronger.
1. There is no difference in power between Gandalf the White, and Gandalf the Grey. It's just a rank
Gandalf the GREY is much much weaker then Gandalf the White. There is a clear difference. It's not just a rank. If it is, prove it.
Gandalf always possessed more power than Saruman,
I would like proof of this claim. Bring up any burden of proof nonsense I will end the argument myself.
their fight in the movie didn't happen and was bogus)
Alright, then there's no indication if their fight in the movie didn't happen that Gandalf can use TK. So basically, Snape owns him just by your own logic.
Bring up TK again, I bring up this comment.
a fact which Saruman was very aware of according to Tolkien. Gandalf possesses more power than he showed even as Gandalf the White though
Source please?
Back when Gandalf was called Olórin the Valar decided that the Istari should go to Middle Earth to aid the races there through council. Gandalf's father, Eru, (the supreme being of LOTR) put an extra restriction on Gandalf. He asked Gandalf to limit himself in the use of his powers. He was going to Middle Earth as a councilor, not as a warrior archangel designed to solve all their problems for them.
These aren't feats.
he is basically as powerful as he needs to be, up to a certain point, which is still unknown because that's how Tolkien writes. Basically though, Balrogs are the same species as Gandalf, except they're a lesser version that's far younger, didn't learn directly under the Valar lords for thousands of years, don't possess a ring of power, and can't wield the power of the Flame of Anor. Anything they can do, he can do better, even holding back.
Not feats.
2. For me, this battle is about morals. If Gandalf has his morals fully on, and refuses to break his oath, then Snape might just win. If it's morals off Gandalf, I just don't see Snape winning against what's basically a super Balrog with a ring of power and an unlimited power source.
I disagree. There's no indication whatsoever that Gandalf is a "super Balrog". It's speculation. Plus, Snape has a upper hand in occulmenery, and can penetrate Gandalf's mind and make him fall to the floor, then cast a psychic spell to control his body or cast an illusion.
Gandalf's powers are vague. You yourself have pointed this out. To be perfectly honest, I think Gandalf shouldn't be allowed in battles on this site.
Everyone says "Gandalf owns" or "Gandalf takes this" but when debate comes, they have no ground to stand on. Gandalf will continue to be used in debates, and they will stretch beyond 120 results, and they will become absoloutly pointless.
The powers of any Maia+ being in LOTR are essentially unknown to the point of being unquantifiable. Tolkien never finished all the stories of Arda, and his writing style was always vague
Well that's on him, then.
If he'd ever written the battle of Dagor Dagorath, we'd probably have a lot more interesting feats to work with, but alas we don't. Gandalf is a being that if we go strictly by personal feats he's a low end street leveler
That is how the battle forums works, FEATS.
Newcomers use speuclation.
But it's been implied that he is nearly the equal of beings that have done things like create the sun. This either results in him being extremely lowballed or highballed. Gandalf isn't exactly made for comic vine battles. I seriously wonder how Tolkien would react if he saw a Snape vs Gandalf argument. Would you argue that Snape could beat Aulë?
You used a wiki source, I do not use wiki sources. However, if you insist I read the article, here's his "powers"
Aulë seems to have a power most akin to Ilúvatar's - he can create an innumerable amount of things. He made the Two Lamps, and made Angainor, Morgoth's chain. Although he does not have access to the Flame Imperishable, he was able to create life (although it does not have free will). As a Valar, he possesses incredible strength, and has been noted to have rebuilt Arda during and after Morgoth's period of destruction before the coming of the Elves. He likely forged the Valar's weaponry and armor for the War of Wrath. His strength is in the construction of new things, and he is as near to the antithesis of the destructive Morgoth as one can be.
-LOTR wikia.
Just from reading that I say an Avada Kedavra could finish him off. But again, Wikia sources aren't always accurate, and we are speaking GANDALF. And I am desperately trying to end this debate.
but it's very unlikely they could prove that through feats. LOTR in general just isn't very compatible with comic vine.
No, it isn't.
Note: I will not debate movie versions. While I love Peter Jackson's movies, he is a moron when it comes to lore. How did he get Anduril confused with the Banner of Elendil?
I don't know.
On a final note: Snape wins.
@MasterJohn said:
@PrinceAragorn1 said:
@MasterJohn: I'm still waiting for your answer as well.
You'll get it, after I read your ridiculous wall of post.
I'm waiting for your equally ridiculous reply :)
@PrinceAragorn1
I'm waiting for your equally ridiculous reply :)
It's already posted.
@MasterJohn said:
@PrinceAragorn1
You used the fallacy "shifting the burden of proof". And I don't mean that in an offensive way, I am just stating a fact. Gandalf breaks an object. You say that the fact that he was kicking Saruman out of the order is proof that he cannot do this in normal situations. People then said that's not true, and you asked them to prove you wrong. That is shifting the burden, because you are the first one to make a claim, and instead of providing proof, you have asked other people to prove you wrong. There is no proof that Gandalf was empowered in any way to accomplish this feat, and he broke an object that is harder to break than a wand. There is no statement anywhere in that paragraph that this is some kind of special power unique to that situation.
Now that that's out of the way, on to my real points. There's a great deal of misconceptions about what Gandalf is and what he can do.
What? I gave clear proof that the only reason Gandalf had the power to break the staff is because he was kicking Saruman out of the order. There's no indication he can do that outside of anyone in the order. I gave you canon proof about that. Beg to differ? Show me proof. I don't care about a burdenb of proof, if you have no proof and I do my argument is much stronger.
1. There is no difference in power between Gandalf the White, and Gandalf the Grey. It's just a rank
Gandalf the GREY is much much weaker then Gandalf the White. There is a clear difference. It's not just a rank. If it is, prove it.
Gandalf always possessed more power than Saruman,
I would like proof of this claim. Bring up any burden of proof nonsense I will end the argument myself.
their fight in the movie didn't happen and was bogus)
Alright, then there's no indication if their fight in the movie didn't happen that Gandalf can use TK. So basically, Snape owns him just by your own logic.
Bring up TK again, I bring up this comment.
a fact which Saruman was very aware of according to Tolkien. Gandalf possesses more power than he showed even as Gandalf the White though
Source please?
Back when Gandalf was called Olórin the Valar decided that the Istari should go to Middle Earth to aid the races there through council. Gandalf's father, Eru, (the supreme being of LOTR) put an extra restriction on Gandalf. He asked Gandalf to limit himself in the use of his powers. He was going to Middle Earth as a councilor, not as a warrior archangel designed to solve all their problems for them.
These aren't feats.
he is basically as powerful as he needs to be, up to a certain point, which is still unknown because that's how Tolkien writes. Basically though, Balrogs are the same species as Gandalf, except they're a lesser version that's far younger, didn't learn directly under the Valar lords for thousands of years, don't possess a ring of power, and can't wield the power of the Flame of Anor. Anything they can do, he can do better, even holding back.
Not feats.
2. For me, this battle is about morals. If Gandalf has his morals fully on, and refuses to break his oath, then Snape might just win. If it's morals off Gandalf, I just don't see Snape winning against what's basically a super Balrog with a ring of power and an unlimited power source.
I disagree. There's no indication whatsoever that Gandalf is a "super Balrog". It's speculation. Plus, Snape has a upper hand in occulmenery, and can penetrate Gandalf's mind and make him fall to the floor, then cast a psychic spell to control his body or cast an illusion.
Gandalf's powers are vague. You yourself have pointed this out. To be perfectly honest, I think Gandalf shouldn't be allowed in battles on this site.
Everyone says "Gandalf owns" or "Gandalf takes this" but when debate comes, they have no ground to stand on. Gandalf will continue to be used in debates, and they will stretch beyond 120 results, and they will become absoloutly pointless.
The powers of any Maia+ being in LOTR are essentially unknown to the point of being unquantifiable. Tolkien never finished all the stories of Arda, and his writing style was always vague
Well that's on him, then.
If he'd ever written the battle of Dagor Dagorath, we'd probably have a lot more interesting feats to work with, but alas we don't. Gandalf is a being that if we go strictly by personal feats he's a low end street leveler
That is how the battle forums works, FEATS.
Newcomers use speuclation.
But it's been implied that he is nearly the equal of beings that have done things like create the sun. This either results in him being extremely lowballed or highballed. Gandalf isn't exactly made for comic vine battles. I seriously wonder how Tolkien would react if he saw a Snape vs Gandalf argument. Would you argue that Snape could beat Aulë?
You used a wiki source, I do not use wiki sources. However, if you insist I read the article, here's his "powers"
Aulë seems to have a power most akin to Ilúvatar's - he can create an innumerable amount of things. He made the Two Lamps, and made Angainor, Morgoth's chain. Although he does not have access to the Flame Imperishable, he was able to create life (although it does not have free will). As a Valar, he possesses incredible strength, and has been noted to have rebuilt Arda during and after Morgoth's period of destruction before the coming of the Elves. He likely forged the Valar's weaponry and armor for the War of Wrath. His strength is in the construction of new things, and he is as near to the antithesis of the destructive Morgoth as one can be.
-LOTR wikia.
Just from reading that I say an Avada Kedavra could finish him off. But again, Wikia sources aren't always accurate, and we are speaking GANDALF. And I am desperately trying to end this debate.
but it's very unlikely they could prove that through feats. LOTR in general just isn't very compatible with comic vine.
No, it isn't.
Note: I will not debate movie versions. While I love Peter Jackson's movies, he is a moron when it comes to lore. How did he get Anduril confused with the Banner of Elendil?
I don't know.
On a final note: Snape wins.
What the....?
Did you see whose post it was before replying to me? And you're calling him a newcomer? Not what a sane person would do, no offense. I believe you're... trying to reply to @Laurcus , not me...
And about the final note. If you were so particularly sure that snape'd win, and had no intention of listening to anyone's logic why make the thread? . Making things up, saying occlumency and legilimensy are the same things.. If you don't have your facts straight, why call other people new.
Considering your knowledge of HP itself is questionable, sorry to be blunt, I will happily let you declare snape as a winner for yourself. When you read both HP and LOTR, we can continue this debate anytime.
Till then, you're free to assume whatever you feel from what you know about both.
@PrinceAragorn1: You win this thread.....
I gave up on this dude awhile ago. He seems to have a beef with LOTR in general, or maybe just LOTR wizards.....
@PrinceAragorn1 I was not sure Snape won, until I saw the immense obsessivness of fanboys, now I'm certain Snape can win.
My knowledge of harry potter is questionable? While I was giving you pure feats, you were throwing sepculations.
legilimens is the spell Snape used to penetrate Harry Potter's mind, that's a fact, watch the video again. Where are you getting these sources? Appearently asking for pure feats and proof is too much. When you are ready to give me proof, pure feats that are not from the Wiki then you can come talk to me.
@steelhound56 I love LOTR. I was just curious about this battle, and appearently it turned into a raging debate that ends in this kind of mess. It's simply obvious I have a better argument and ground to stand on.
- Snape
- Gandalf in a stomp
LOL, the way this so-called "debate" is revolving is just..... laughable. Laughably disgusting.
@MasterJohn said:
@PrinceAragorn1 I was not sure Snape won, until I saw the immense obsessivness of fanboys, now I'm certain Snape can win.
My knowledge of harry potter is questionable? While I was giving you pure feats, you were throwing sepculations.
legilimens is the spell Snape used to penetrate Harry Potter's mind, that's a fact, watch the video again. Where are you getting these sources? Appearently asking for pure feats and proof is too much. When you are ready to give me proof, pure feats that are not from the Wiki then you can come talk to me.
@steelhound56 I love LOTR. I was just curious about this battle, and appearently it turned into a raging debate that ends in this kind of mess. It's simply obvious I have a better argument and ground to stand on.
If you call blatantly ignoring context of feats and standing of power in one universe while shifting burden of proof from yourself to other debaters to deflect a question an "arugment", I'll agree.
@ShootingNova said:
LOL, the way this so-called "debate" is revolving is just..... laughable. Laughably disgusting.
and this. I completely agree. As much as I love HP and LOTR, I'm done with this thread
@steelhound56: Indeed.
@MasterJohn said:
@PrinceAragorn1
You used the fallacy "shifting the burden of proof". And I don't mean that in an offensive way, I am just stating a fact. Gandalf breaks an object. You say that the fact that he was kicking Saruman out of the order is proof that he cannot do this in normal situations. People then said that's not true, and you asked them to prove you wrong. That is shifting the burden, because you are the first one to make a claim, and instead of providing proof, you have asked other people to prove you wrong. There is no proof that Gandalf was empowered in any way to accomplish this feat, and he broke an object that is harder to break than a wand. There is no statement anywhere in that paragraph that this is some kind of special power unique to that situation.
Now that that's out of the way, on to my real points. There's a great deal of misconceptions about what Gandalf is and what he can do.
What? I gave clear proof that the only reason Gandalf had the power to break the staff is because he was kicking Saruman out of the order. There's no indication he can do that outside of anyone in the order. I gave you canon proof about that. Beg to differ? Show me proof. I don't care about a burdenb of proof, if you have no proof and I do my argument is much stronger.
1. There is no difference in power between Gandalf the White, and Gandalf the Grey. It's just a rank
Gandalf the GREY is much much weaker then Gandalf the White. There is a clear difference. It's not just a rank. If it is, prove it.
Gandalf always possessed more power than Saruman,
I would like proof of this claim. Bring up any burden of proof nonsense I will end the argument myself.
their fight in the movie didn't happen and was bogus)
Alright, then there's no indication if their fight in the movie didn't happen that Gandalf can use TK. So basically, Snape owns him just by your own logic.
Bring up TK again, I bring up this comment.
a fact which Saruman was very aware of according to Tolkien. Gandalf possesses more power than he showed even as Gandalf the White though
Source please?
Back when Gandalf was called Olórin the Valar decided that the Istari should go to Middle Earth to aid the races there through council. Gandalf's father, Eru, (the supreme being of LOTR) put an extra restriction on Gandalf. He asked Gandalf to limit himself in the use of his powers. He was going to Middle Earth as a councilor, not as a warrior archangel designed to solve all their problems for them.
These aren't feats.
he is basically as powerful as he needs to be, up to a certain point, which is still unknown because that's how Tolkien writes. Basically though, Balrogs are the same species as Gandalf, except they're a lesser version that's far younger, didn't learn directly under the Valar lords for thousands of years, don't possess a ring of power, and can't wield the power of the Flame of Anor. Anything they can do, he can do better, even holding back.
Not feats.
2. For me, this battle is about morals. If Gandalf has his morals fully on, and refuses to break his oath, then Snape might just win. If it's morals off Gandalf, I just don't see Snape winning against what's basically a super Balrog with a ring of power and an unlimited power source.
I disagree. There's no indication whatsoever that Gandalf is a "super Balrog". It's speculation. Plus, Snape has a upper hand in occulmenery, and can penetrate Gandalf's mind and make him fall to the floor, then cast a psychic spell to control his body or cast an illusion.
Gandalf's powers are vague. You yourself have pointed this out. To be perfectly honest, I think Gandalf shouldn't be allowed in battles on this site.
Everyone says "Gandalf owns" or "Gandalf takes this" but when debate comes, they have no ground to stand on. Gandalf will continue to be used in debates, and they will stretch beyond 120 results, and they will become absoloutly pointless.
The powers of any Maia+ being in LOTR are essentially unknown to the point of being unquantifiable. Tolkien never finished all the stories of Arda, and his writing style was always vague
Well that's on him, then.
If he'd ever written the battle of Dagor Dagorath, we'd probably have a lot more interesting feats to work with, but alas we don't. Gandalf is a being that if we go strictly by personal feats he's a low end street leveler
That is how the battle forums works, FEATS.
Newcomers use speuclation.
But it's been implied that he is nearly the equal of beings that have done things like create the sun. This either results in him being extremely lowballed or highballed. Gandalf isn't exactly made for comic vine battles. I seriously wonder how Tolkien would react if he saw a Snape vs Gandalf argument. Would you argue that Snape could beat Aulë?
You used a wiki source, I do not use wiki sources. However, if you insist I read the article, here's his "powers"
Aulë seems to have a power most akin to Ilúvatar's - he can create an innumerable amount of things. He made the Two Lamps, and made Angainor, Morgoth's chain. Although he does not have access to the Flame Imperishable, he was able to create life (although it does not have free will). As a Valar, he possesses incredible strength, and has been noted to have rebuilt Arda during and after Morgoth's period of destruction before the coming of the Elves. He likely forged the Valar's weaponry and armor for the War of Wrath. His strength is in the construction of new things, and he is as near to the antithesis of the destructive Morgoth as one can be.
-LOTR wikia.
Just from reading that I say an Avada Kedavra could finish him off. But again, Wikia sources aren't always accurate, and we are speaking GANDALF. And I am desperately trying to end this debate.
but it's very unlikely they could prove that through feats. LOTR in general just isn't very compatible with comic vine.
No, it isn't.
Note: I will not debate movie versions. While I love Peter Jackson's movies, he is a moron when it comes to lore. How did he get Anduril confused with the Banner of Elendil?
I don't know.
On a final note: Snape wins.
You didn't give any proof that Gandalf could only break Saruman's staff because he was kicking him out of the order. You just posted the passage where it happens, and then stated he can't do that whenever he wants. Your argument has no proof. You made a claim, backed it up with nothing, and then asked people to prove you wrong. That's fallacious. And you should care when you use a fallacy, because they're inherently wrong. They're fallacies for a reason. Let me use an example of what your argument's like. "Laurcus makes eggs on Christmas morning. We've never seen Laurcus make eggs before this, therefore he can only make eggs on Christmas morning. I've provided proof, everyone else has to prove me wrong and show that Laurcus can make eggs at other times of the years."
Tolkien stated Gandalf always possessed more power than Saruman in Appendix B: The Tale of Years, The Third Age, Year 2953. If you cut out movie bullcrap, Gandalf never showed any significant power increase going from Grey to White, especially with an author statement that he was always more powerful than Saruman, as that's the only argument that could have been used to show he got more powerful after he died. If that's not a good enough source for you I don't know what to say, other than go out and buy the books so you can look at the appendix yourself.
I'm aware what is a feat and is not a feat. There's no need to be so uptight, I was just explaining my position.
Saying that Gandalf is like a super Balrog isn't speculation. They are both Maiar, the same species. Gandalf is just older and wiser with a couple thousand more years of training, a ring of power and an unlimited power source.
I'm not a newcomer, and once again there's no need to be so uptight, especially about using a wiki for Aulë. I was just trying to demonstrate a point about LOTR lack of feats, a point you seem to have either not grasped, or have chosen to ignore. Also, wikis are a great source for general information. This isn't 1999, you know how hard it is to vandalize a reasonably active wiki these days?
On a final note, Gandalf is immune to mind control and domination from any source but the One Ring. It's one of the powers of Narya, his ring of power.
@MasterJohn said:
@PrinceAragorn1 said:
@MasterJohn: If you have any feats of it working anything above a human or bird/insect, please show them.
This is irrelevant. This is like saying Gandalf has only used his blinding light on dark creatures (Orcs, balrog) yet, he can't use them on anyone else. It's a logical fallacy. It is a magical spell, just because it's been used on Humans doesn't mean it will not work here. I have made a strong case for Snape, and all I get back is speculation and rules set by people who can barely grasp Snape's abilities. He does not need to vocally do his telepathic assaults, but Gandalf has no defense against this:
So by this token would you say that literally anything that can be killed can be killed with AK? Because giants and dragons were both stated to take multiple wizards even to stun, and a Balrog would swat a giant like a gnat. Balrogs are literal demons, created by Arda's equivalent of Satan. There is no way that they're going down to AK spell. I already posted the Ungoliant information and have stated Balrogs were all created equal except for Gothmog, if I must I will bring out a quote from Tolkien encyclopedia but I really don't understand why u just won't accept the truth.
@ShootingNova said:
The Istari Shield has deflected a featless sword, not an instakill. Deflecting something magical doesn't necessarily equate to being capable of deflecting one of, if not the, most powerful curses ever. Until the Sword has been shown to be an utter instakill, or even having any especially impressive feats, deflecting it isn't going to be a tide-turner.
Did spells like the killing curses bounce off of physical barriers in the books? Why would Gandalf's shield be any different. It clearly blocked the Balrog's sword attack in the film.
@Quartermaim: Not all spells are the same in nature. The Killing Curse didn't "bounce off" physical objects, it incinerated them. There is a chance Gandalf could use some kind of environmental element to avoid being hit, that or a sacrifice of one of his weapons. Avada Kedavra apparently could not be blocked by any magical shield, although all the Protego variants (Protego, Protege Horribilis, Protege Totalum) are obviously different from Gandalf's Istari shield, but still bears at least a minor resemblance. Also, I just said that the Istari Shield deflected the Balrog's Sword, so why did you have to mention that? I said the Sword was about featless (or at least no impressive feats).
Gandalf wins easily with both versions
Movie version teleports blinding snape and gutting him
Book version can kill the entire HP universe with his pinky. He is simply out of a mortals league. Also LOTR mortals>HP wizards.
@MasterJohn said:
@PrinceAragorn1 I was not sure Snape won, until I saw the immense obsessivness of fanboys, now I'm certain Snape can win.
My knowledge of harry potter is questionable? While I was giving you pure feats, you were throwing sepculations.
legilimens is the spell Snape used to penetrate Harry Potter's mind, that's a fact, watch the video again. Where are you getting these sources? Appearently asking for pure feats and proof is too much. When you are ready to give me proof, pure feats that are not from the Wiki then you can come talk to me.
@steelhound56 I love LOTR. I was just curious about this battle, and appearently it turned into a raging debate that ends in this kind of mess. It's simply obvious I have a better argument and ground to stand on.
Well, I'm off as well. Before going, though. People on the right side are not called fanboys. So here, you're calling yourself one unfortunately.
Yup. For a guy who says occlumency and legilimency are same, it is. I've never given a wiki reference. And secondly, if you've read harry potter books, the spell is for mind reading only. Snape was flicking through harry's embarassing moments, or private ones. Doing that in a battle is only going to enrage the enemy.
Picking any of your comment, I can see that you're going to competly ignore the difference between an ordinary amateur wizard and an Istari, disregard whatever logic shown to you, and continue to stick with snape.
wish you luck with it.
Gandalf the glandular gladiator
not really, but maybe snape round 1, gandalf fo sho round 2
@ChaosBlazer This has been beaten to death, don't shatter it's ribcage.
Wizard duels seemed to boil down to reflexes in the Potter Verse, Gandalf has better speed feats so he wins.
@ShootingNova said:
I just said that the Istari Shield deflected the Balrog's Sword, so why did you have to mention that? I said the Sword was about featless (or at least no impressive feats).
My issue has nothing to do with you as it does with the concept of Featless characters and people acceptance of such things on these boards only when they feel like it.
My LOTR is a bit rusty but I thought Balrogs were corrupted Maiar. Captains of the first age (by general design Tolkien believed that older was better) humans couldn't create elven crafts and Elves great skill was still nothing to Valar.
Ecthelion, Lord of the Fountain managed to kill Gothmog and died doing so.
I feel on these boards some people concede that Feats are everything, yet time and time again Feats are ignored when common sense comes into play.
On one hand I could say that Sam from LOTR could take Aragog, and any number of acromantula. By design they have no real feats except that they were magically created to protect dwellings and have secreted poison. Since Sam took on and injured Shelob who also had no real feats.
So the question is can Sam kill an unlimited number of featless Acromatula because they are featless and he isn't?
As for the Istari Shield deflected an attack from the Balrog's sword which was featless making the Shield featless except it can block a featless attack.
Gandalf feared the Balrog, he told everyone to flee. Gandalf is considered the wisest (although that is also featless according to the OP). Gandalf honestly believed that the Balrog would kill them all. Everyone in the fellowship believed him. They didn't ask for confirmation of what this Balrog had actually done. If they had we would have scratched out heads and said WTF.
By design I believe that the Balrog was obviously dangerous, its Feats was its initial creation of history, Tolkien's nod to older is more impressive, and the fact that it managed to kill Gandalf who until that point never showed fear or anything from the Hobbit which included the Dragon (except for the necromancer).
I've read Dork Tower, I posted the Cracked tongue and cheek of Gandalf. Gandalf faults are not his but the author to expected everything to make assumptions about his characters.
Please don't see this as a personal attack, its merely a gripe I have on these boards in this fight Snape wins due to feats. But seriously if we go by feats alone Gandalf would lose to the vast majority of people on these boards by his lack of feats. When does common sense actually come into play.
@Quartermaim: In regards to the paragraph with Aragog, being "magically created to protect dwellings and have secreted poison" is not a feat. At all.
You seem to not know what a feat is. How is being considered the wisest (while it's impressive in its own right) a feat?
It's not simply the matter of feats, it's on-panel feats, feats seen, and feats relevant to battle that didn't require amps, prep time, rituals, allies, and so on.
Common sense is being used here; and to a very large extent. A creator isn't necessarily incredibly powerful in combat, and so on. But making assumptions can only go so far, and certainly not to a ridiculous extent. I understand where you are coming from, you simply need to word it better and not push it too far.
@ShootingNova said:
@Quartermaim: In regards to the paragraph with Aragog, being "magically created to protect dwellings and have secreted poison" is not a feat. At all.
You seem to not know what a feat is. How is being considered the wisest (while it's impressive in its own right) a feat?
It's not simply the matter of feats, it's on-panel feats, feats seen, and feats relevant to battle that didn't require amps, prep time, rituals, allies, and so on.
Common sense is being used here; and to a very large extent. A creator isn't necessarily incredibly powerful in combat, and so on. But making assumptions can only go so far, and certainly not to a ridiculous extent. I understand where you are coming from, you simply need to word it better and not push it too far.
Understood thank you for your time.
@Quartermaim: It was no trouble at all.
Just to clarify, a feat is a notable achievement (generally battle-related, but not nearly always) which is basically done by somebody, not a praise or remark said by somebody else regarding that somebody.
For example, there's X and Y.
X lifts a tree telekinetically. That's a feat.
Y says X is the the most intelligent of any being. That is not a feat.
@ShootingNova: You need feats for Gandalf the Grey I can provide them (note these are informations from both Lotr and The Hobbit):
-explosive blasts rendering stones (in truth crumbling stone constructions to pieces) and shooting lightning (instant kill of several orcs): ,,But not Gandalf. Bilbo’s yell had done that much good. It had wakened him up wide in a splintered second, and when the goblins came to grab him, there was a terrific flash like lightning in the cave, a smell like gunpowder, and several of them fell dead.”
,,At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand. A blinding sheet of white flame sprang up. The bridge cracked. Right at the Balrog’s feet it broke, and the stone upon which it stood crashed into the gulf, while the rest remained, poised, quivering like a tongue of rock thrust out into the emptiness."
-telekinesis (using staff or hand, from simple tricks like manipulating movements of smoke rings and their shape to disarming oponent)
-in varying degrees (from simple tricks to more deadly forms of it) create and manipulate light, fire, smoke, use illusions to appear taller and menacing, move unseen and appear out of nowhere, example of smoke and fire magic (smoke makes also a good cover):
,,‘Just at that moment all the lights in the cavern went out, and the great fire went off into a tower of blue glowing smoke, right up to the roof, that scattered piercing white sparks all among the goblins.
The yells and yammering, croaking, jibbering and jabbering; howls, growls, and curses; shrieking and skriking, that followed were beyond description. Several hundred wild cats and wolves being roasted slowly alive would not have compared with it. The sparks were burning holes in the goblins, and the smoke that now fell from the roof made the air too thick for even their eyes to see through. Soon they were falling over one another and rolling in heaps on the floor, biting and kicking and fighting as if they had all gone mad.’"
,,‘He gathered the huge pine-cones from the branches of the tree. Then he set one alight with bright blue fire, and threw it whizzing down among the circle of the wolves. It struck one on the back, and immediately his shaggy coat caught fire, and he was leaping to and fro yelping horribly. Then another came and another, one in blue flames, one in red, another in green. They burst on the ground in the middle of the circle and went off in coloured sparks and smoke. A specially large one hit the chief wolf on the nose, and he leaped in the air ten feet, and then rushed round and round the circle biting and snapping even at the other wolves in his anger and fright.
The dwarves and Bilbo shouted and cheered. The rage of the wolves was terrible to see, and the commotion they made filled all the forest. Wolves are afraid of fire at all times, but this was a most horrible and uncanny fire. If a spark got in their coats it stuck and burned into them, and unless they rolled over quick they were soon all in flames."
,,...And there was one last surprise, in honour of Bilbo, and it startled the hobbits exceedingly, as Gandalf intended. The lights went out. A great smoke went up. It shaped itself like a mountain seen in the distance, and began to glow at the summit. It spouted green and scarlet flames. Out flew a red-golden dragon – not life-size, but terribly life-like: fire came from his jaws, his eyes glared down; there was a roar, and he whizzed three times over the heads of the crowd. They ducked, and many fell flat on their faces. The dragon passed like an express train, turned a somersault, and burst over Bywater with a deafening explosion.’"
,,‘I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree – and they were there before me. They drew away from me, for they felt the coming of my anger and dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring of Amon Sûl. I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old.’"
,,‘In the wavering firelight Gandalf seemed suddenly to grow: he rose up, a great menacing shape like the monument of some ancient king of stone set upon a hill. Stooping like a cloud, he lifted a burning branch and strode to meet the wolves. They gave back before him. High in the air he tossed the blazing brand. It flared with a sudden white radiance like lightning; and his voice rolled like thunder.
“Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan I ngaurhoth!” he cried.
There was a roar and a crackle, and the tree above him burst into a leaf and bloom of blinding flame. The fire leapt from tree-top to tree-top. The whole hill was crowned with a dazzling light. The swords and knives of the defenders shone and flickered. The last arrow of Legolas kindled in the air as it flew, and plunged burning into the heart of a great wolf-chieftain. All the others fled.’"
- telepathy, affecting the minds of others filling them with fear or strenghtening their courage, inspiring to fight (magical influence of Narya ring and his mental powers),,you talked long in your sleep Frodo and it has not been hard for me to read your mind and memories", ,,and I could not 'make' you unless – except by force, which would break your mind.” (mind reading is similar to legilimency and oclumency or whatever it is called, only in his case the barriers are much stronger and his memories are thousands of years long, try to search for something useful in such a baggage of experiences, it must be difficult to search through a normal human mind, especially when one trained occlumency, and Gandalf's ring protects the mind of the wearer just like in case of Galadriel who resisted Sauron's mind reading with the use of Nenya), later this mental powers in the White form developed so to allow him to command persons like imperio spell (including variety where only body movements are controlled by unseen force), but it's not relevant, only the Grey form is discussed
-controlling the water (he made shapes of horses and white glowing riders that enhanced destructive force of flood wave commanded by Elrond, the water took many stone boulders rom the mountains):
“Who made the flood?” asked Frodo.
“Elrond commanded it,” answered Gandalf. “The river of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford. As soon as the captain of the Ringwraiths rode into the water the flood was released. If I may say so, I added a few touches of my own: you may not have noticed, but some of the waves took the form of great white horses with shining white riders; and there were many rolling and grinding boulders.”'
-blessings (on beer :) and on Bill the pony): ,,‘He laid his hand on the pony’s head, and spoke in a low voice. “Go with words of guard and guiding on you,” he said. “You are a wise beast, and have learned much in Rivendell. Make your ways to places where you can find grass, and so come in time to Elrond’s house, or wherever you wish to go.”’ And spells:
,,After that they slept, for their night had been disturbed; and they did nothing more till the afternoon. Then they brought up their ponies, and carried away the pots of gold, and buried them very secretly not far from the track by the river, putting a great many spells over them, just in case they ever had the chance to come back and recover them.’" (not only Gandalf but dwarves too seems to use spells, in fact there are other examples of dwarvish magic ,,spells of exclusion in khuzdul", just a minor interesting detail :), so some sort of more elaborate protection spells for Gandalf's use are not unlikely)
‘“I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs, that was ever used for such a purpose. I can still remember ten score of them without searching in my mind…”’ including shutting spell on the doors and Word of Command (which side effect caused the stone doors of Mazarbul Chamber to burst in pieces and collapsed the roof and walls burying Balrog under rubble):
‘‘Suddenly at the top of the stair there was a stab of white light. Then there was a dull rumble and a heavy thud. The drum-beats broke out wildly: doom-boom, doom-boom, and then stopped. Gandalf came flying down the steps and fell to the ground in the midst of the Company.
“Well, well! That’s over!” said the wizard struggling to his feet. “I have done all that I could. But I have met my match, and have nearly been destroyed. But don’t stand here! Go on! You will have to do without light for awhile: I am rather shaken...”
“I could think of nothing to do but to try and put a shutting-spell on the door. I know many; but to do things of that kind rightly requires time, and even then the door can be broken by strength…
Then something came into the chamber – I felt it through the door, and the orcs themselves were afraid and fell silent. It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell.
What it was I could not guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command. That proved too great a strain. The door burst in pieces…All the wall gave way, and the roof of the chamber as well, I think.”’
Fight with Balrog seems to belong to many categories listed above (lightning, blasting spells, fire, also examples of enormous endurance, strength and agility of Gandalf the Grey, they continued fighting for 10 days):
‘“Name him not!” said Gandalf, and for a moment it seemed that a cloud of pain passed over his face, and he sat silent, looking old as death. “Long time I fell,” he said at last, slowly, as if thinking back with great difficulty. “Long I fell, and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned. Then we plunged into the deep water and all was dark. Cold it was as the tide of death: almost it froze my heart.”
“Deep is the abyss that is spanned by Durin's Bridge, and none has measured it,” said Gimli.
“Yet it has a bottom, beyond light and knowledge,” said Gandalf. “Thither I came at last, to the uttermost foundations of stone. He was with me still. His fire quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake.”
“We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Gloin. Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day. In that despair my enemy was my only hope, and I pursued him, clutching at his heel. Thus he brought me back at last to the secret ways of Khazad-dûm: too well he knew them all. Ever up we went now, until we came to the Endless Stair.”
“Long has that been lost,” said Gimli. “Many have said that it was never made save in legend, but others say that it was destroyed.”
“It was made, and it had not been destroyed,” said Gandalf. “From the lowest dungeon to the highest peak it climbed, ascending in unbroken spiral in many thousand steps, until it issued at last in Durin's Tower carved in the living rock of Zirakzigil, the pinnacle of the Silvertine.”
“There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. There sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.”
Suddenly Gandalf laughed. “But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is that not enough? A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.
Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done. And naked I lay upon the mountain-top. The tower behind was crumbled into dust, the window gone; the ruined stair was choked with burned and broken stone”’
There is also mentioned ,,white fire" that sprouted from the contact of Glamdring with flaming sword of Balrog, it can be poetic description of sparks, but most likely it's another pyrotechnic power, the stream of such white fire is later used against Nazgul by the rise of the hand (in movies portrayed as light coming from staff).
Some would say it's too little but at least for me it shows that Gandalf is insanely powerful.
@Quartermaim: Interesting observation I wanted to share (concerning our arachnids :) or rather I should say beings in spider form or killer spiders from outer space hehe), Shelob may not do much in her lifetime except to eat but we know something about her powers (some of it are my speculation, some certain facts). She was capable to weave webs of shadow just like her mother (this shadow was actively consuming light, she made webs and vapour ,,wrought of veritable darkness" inside it she could be totally invisible until it was too late though she sometimes revelaed herself to her victims for fun), her webs were nearly indestructible even for superior steel of numenorean dagger, only elvish sword was able to cut through, there is also a reference to possible mental powers ,, Already, years before, Gollum had beheld her, Sméagol who pried into all dark holes, and in past days he had bowed and worshipped her, and the darkness of her evil will walked through all the ways of his weariness beside him, cutting him off from light and from regret." (this suspiciously sounds like some psychic link) and ,,holding spell", she looked with her eyes and hold victims in terrified shock (though again it might be poetic language, Tolkien you magnificent trickster :) :):
‘Here the air was still, stagnant, heavy, and sound fell dead. They walked as it were in a black vapour wrought of veritable darkness itself that, as it was breathed, brought blindness not only to the eyes but to the mind, so that even the memory of colours and of forms and of any light faded out of thought.’
‘And still the stench grew. It grew, until almost it seemed to them that smell was the only clear sense left to them, and that was for their torment…
At length Frodo, groping along the left-hand wall, came suddenly to a void. Almost he fell sideways into the emptiness. Here was some opening in the rock far wider than any they had yet passed; and out of it came a reek so foul, and a sense of lurking malice so intense, that Frodo reeled. And at that moment Sam too lurched and fell forward.’
‘But other potencies there are in Middle-earth, powers of night, and they are old and strong. And She that walked in the darkness had heard the Elves cry that cry far back in the deeps of time, and she had not heeded it, and it did not daunt her now. Even as Frodo spoke he felt a great malice bent upon him, and a deadly regard considering him. Not far down the tunnel, between them and the opening where they had reeled and stumbled, he was aware of eyes growing visible, two great clusters of many-windowed eyes – the coming menace was unmasked at last. The radiance of the star-glass was broken and thrown back from their thousands facets, but behind the glitter a pale deadly fire began steadily to glow within, a flame kindled in some deep pit of evil thought. Monstrous and abominable eyes they were, bestial and yet filled with purpose and with hideous delight, gloating over their prey trapped beyond all hope of escape.
Frodo and Sam, horror-stricken, began slowly to back away, their own gaze held by the dreadful stare of those baleful eyes; but as they backed so the eyes advanced. Frodo’s hand wavered, and slowly the Phial drooped. Then suddenly, released from the holding spell to run a little while in vain panic for the amusement of the eyes, they both turned and fled together…’
@fantasywind said:
@ShootingNova: You need feats for Gandalf the Grey I can provide them (note these are informations from both Lotr and The Hobbit):
-explosive blasts rendering stones (in truth crumbling stone constructions to pieces) and shooting lightning (instant kill of several orcs): ,,But not Gandalf. Bilbo’s yell had done that much good. It had wakened him up wide in a splintered second, and when the goblins came to grab him, there was a terrific flash like lightning in the cave, a smell like gunpowder, and several of them fell dead.”
,,At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand. A blinding sheet of white flame sprang up. The bridge cracked. Right at the Balrog’s feet it broke, and the stone upon which it stood crashed into the gulf, while the rest remained, poised, quivering like a tongue of rock thrust out into the emptiness."
-telekinesis (using staff or hand, from simple tricks like manipulating movements of smoke rings and their shape to disarming oponent)
-in varying degrees (from simple tricks to more deadly forms of it) create and manipulate light, fire, smoke, use illusions to appear taller and menacing, move unseen and appear out of nowhere, example of smoke and fire magic (smoke makes also a good cover):
,,‘Just at that moment all the lights in the cavern went out, and the great fire went off into a tower of blue glowing smoke, right up to the roof, that scattered piercing white sparks all among the goblins.
The yells and yammering, croaking, jibbering and jabbering; howls, growls, and curses; shrieking and skriking, that followed were beyond description. Several hundred wild cats and wolves being roasted slowly alive would not have compared with it. The sparks were burning holes in the goblins, and the smoke that now fell from the roof made the air too thick for even their eyes to see through. Soon they were falling over one another and rolling in heaps on the floor, biting and kicking and fighting as if they had all gone mad.’"
,,‘He gathered the huge pine-cones from the branches of the tree. Then he set one alight with bright blue fire, and threw it whizzing down among the circle of the wolves. It struck one on the back, and immediately his shaggy coat caught fire, and he was leaping to and fro yelping horribly. Then another came and another, one in blue flames, one in red, another in green. They burst on the ground in the middle of the circle and went off in coloured sparks and smoke. A specially large one hit the chief wolf on the nose, and he leaped in the air ten feet, and then rushed round and round the circle biting and snapping even at the other wolves in his anger and fright.
The dwarves and Bilbo shouted and cheered. The rage of the wolves was terrible to see, and the commotion they made filled all the forest. Wolves are afraid of fire at all times, but this was a most horrible and uncanny fire. If a spark got in their coats it stuck and burned into them, and unless they rolled over quick they were soon all in flames."
,,...And there was one last surprise, in honour of Bilbo, and it startled the hobbits exceedingly, as Gandalf intended. The lights went out. A great smoke went up. It shaped itself like a mountain seen in the distance, and began to glow at the summit. It spouted green and scarlet flames. Out flew a red-golden dragon – not life-size, but terribly life-like: fire came from his jaws, his eyes glared down; there was a roar, and he whizzed three times over the heads of the crowd. They ducked, and many fell flat on their faces. The dragon passed like an express train, turned a somersault, and burst over Bywater with a deafening explosion.’"
,,‘I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree – and they were there before me. They drew away from me, for they felt the coming of my anger and dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring of Amon Sûl. I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old.’"
,,‘In the wavering firelight Gandalf seemed suddenly to grow: he rose up, a great menacing shape like the monument of some ancient king of stone set upon a hill. Stooping like a cloud, he lifted a burning branch and strode to meet the wolves. They gave back before him. High in the air he tossed the blazing brand. It flared with a sudden white radiance like lightning; and his voice rolled like thunder.
“Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan I ngaurhoth!” he cried.
There was a roar and a crackle, and the tree above him burst into a leaf and bloom of blinding flame. The fire leapt from tree-top to tree-top. The whole hill was crowned with a dazzling light. The swords and knives of the defenders shone and flickered. The last arrow of Legolas kindled in the air as it flew, and plunged burning into the heart of a great wolf-chieftain. All the others fled.’"
- telepathy, affecting the minds of others filling them with fear or strenghtening their courage, inspiring to fight (magical influence of Narya ring and his mental powers),,you talked long in your sleep Frodo and it has not been hard for me to read your mind and memories", ,,and I could not 'make' you unless – except by force, which would break your mind.” (mind reading is similar to legilimency and oclumency or whatever it is called, only in his case the barriers are much stronger and his memories are thousands of years long, try to search for something useful in such a baggage of experiences, it must be difficult to search through a normal human mind, especially when one trained occlumency, and Gandalf's ring protects the mind of the wearer just like in case of Galadriel who resisted Sauron's mind reading with the use of Nenya), later this mental powers in the White form developed so to allow him to command persons like imperio spell (including variety where only body movements are controlled by unseen force), but it's not relevant, only the Grey form is discussed
-controlling the water (he made shapes of horses and white glowing riders that enhanced destructive force of flood wave commanded by Elrond, the water took many stone boulders rom the mountains):
“Who made the flood?” asked Frodo.
“Elrond commanded it,” answered Gandalf. “The river of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford. As soon as the captain of the Ringwraiths rode into the water the flood was released. If I may say so, I added a few touches of my own: you may not have noticed, but some of the waves took the form of great white horses with shining white riders; and there were many rolling and grinding boulders.”'
-blessings (on beer :) and on Bill the pony): ,,‘He laid his hand on the pony’s head, and spoke in a low voice. “Go with words of guard and guiding on you,” he said. “You are a wise beast, and have learned much in Rivendell. Make your ways to places where you can find grass, and so come in time to Elrond’s house, or wherever you wish to go.”’ And spells:
,,After that they slept, for their night had been disturbed; and they did nothing more till the afternoon. Then they brought up their ponies, and carried away the pots of gold, and buried them very secretly not far from the track by the river, putting a great many spells over them, just in case they ever had the chance to come back and recover them.’" (not only Gandalf but dwarves too seems to use spells, in fact there are other examples of dwarvish magic ,,spells of exclusion in khuzdul", just a minor interesting detail :), so some sort of more elaborate protection spells for Gandalf's use are not unlikely)
‘“I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs, that was ever used for such a purpose. I can still remember ten score of them without searching in my mind…”’ including shutting spell on the doors and Word of Command (which side effect caused the stone doors of Mazarbul Chamber to burst in pieces and collapsed the roof and walls burying Balrog under rubble):
‘‘Suddenly at the top of the stair there was a stab of white light. Then there was a dull rumble and a heavy thud. The drum-beats broke out wildly: doom-boom, doom-boom, and then stopped. Gandalf came flying down the steps and fell to the ground in the midst of the Company.
“Well, well! That’s over!” said the wizard struggling to his feet. “I have done all that I could. But I have met my match, and have nearly been destroyed. But don’t stand here! Go on! You will have to do without light for awhile: I am rather shaken...”
“I could think of nothing to do but to try and put a shutting-spell on the door. I know many; but to do things of that kind rightly requires time, and even then the door can be broken by strength…
Then something came into the chamber – I felt it through the door, and the orcs themselves were afraid and fell silent. It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell.
What it was I could not guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command. That proved too great a strain. The door burst in pieces…All the wall gave way, and the roof of the chamber as well, I think.”’
Fight with Balrog seems to belong to many categories listed above (lightning, blasting spells, fire, also examples of enormous endurance, strength and agility of Gandalf the Grey, they continued fighting for 10 days):
‘“Name him not!” said Gandalf, and for a moment it seemed that a cloud of pain passed over his face, and he sat silent, looking old as death. “Long time I fell,” he said at last, slowly, as if thinking back with great difficulty. “Long I fell, and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned. Then we plunged into the deep water and all was dark. Cold it was as the tide of death: almost it froze my heart.”
“Deep is the abyss that is spanned by Durin's Bridge, and none has measured it,” said Gimli.
“Yet it has a bottom, beyond light and knowledge,” said Gandalf. “Thither I came at last, to the uttermost foundations of stone. He was with me still. His fire quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake.”
“We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Gloin. Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day. In that despair my enemy was my only hope, and I pursued him, clutching at his heel. Thus he brought me back at last to the secret ways of Khazad-dûm: too well he knew them all. Ever up we went now, until we came to the Endless Stair.”
“Long has that been lost,” said Gimli. “Many have said that it was never made save in legend, but others say that it was destroyed.”
“It was made, and it had not been destroyed,” said Gandalf. “From the lowest dungeon to the highest peak it climbed, ascending in unbroken spiral in many thousand steps, until it issued at last in Durin's Tower carved in the living rock of Zirakzigil, the pinnacle of the Silvertine.”
“There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. There sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.”
Suddenly Gandalf laughed. “But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is that not enough? A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.
Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done. And naked I lay upon the mountain-top. The tower behind was crumbled into dust, the window gone; the ruined stair was choked with burned and broken stone”’
There is also mentioned ,,white fire" that sprouted from the contact of Glamdring with flaming sword of Balrog, it can be poetic description of sparks, but most likely it's another pyrotechnic power, the stream of such white fire is later used against Nazgul by the rise of the hand (in movies portrayed as light coming from staff).
Some would say it's too little but at least for me it shows that Gandalf is insanely powerful.
The debate has been had, if Snape can get Avada Kedavra before Gandalf can raise his staff or strike him with his sword, then Gandalf dies. Simple as that. Fire would really mean nothing to Snape, he is a Wizard and they have spells for EVERYTHING, fire included.
Do you think a mental assault on Snape will work? There's no indication that Snape, even if his wand is dismembered, won't be able to use legilemency to cripple Gandalf or make him kill himself. How strong IS gandalf's mental barriers? It never specifies.
So nothing here but an explosion would be a threat to Snape, He still wins in my view.
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