Frieza vs Team Naruto(Read Op)

@purple_d_dragon:

I would argue that particular feat outshines Goku and Cell when they were just warming up as well as Goten and Trunks' fight at the tournament. Nobody in the audience could see Krillin or Roshi when they had their brief exchange. If anything, that kind of combat speed seems inconsistent when you look at some of the other fights in the tournament later of. I don't recall anyone having trouble keeping up with Roshi and Goku's fight.

Goku had already changed the path of his Kamehameha before Raditz realized what was happening:

@thedarkpaladin: You're right. I think Goku and Tein in the 22nd budokai were the first characters who could consistently go so fast nobody in the audience could see them. Before that they would just move so fast in short bursts they couldn't tell what was going on. I don't think it was ever stated Roshi and Krillin actually became completely invisible.

Toriyama likes to change his mind and forgets things all of the time too.

Yeah, it was never stated that Roshi and Krillin became invisible, but the referee wasn't able to follow their movements, and i doubt anyone in the crowd could either based on their reactions.

@thedarkpaladin: Ya they definitely couldn't tell what was going on.

And that was just vol.3 of 34.

It may seem inconsistent but if you want to ignore feats because you don't think they should be valid then it comes to personal interpretation. (I've been reading the manga all day and I found funny how they break the fourth wall in various occasions.) And about the fights when people can see them, remember, they can move at incredible speeds, but that doesn't necessary means they move at those speeds all the time.

Dragon ball started out very silly and is very inconsistent all the way up until even now.

However I don't think the fighters were stated to truly go invisible from their high speeds until the 22nd Budokai if I remember correctly.

The exchange Krillin and Roshi had lasted less than a second, it was stated in the manga that half of that took like 0.2 seconds, I could say the entire exchange took 0.3 or 0.4

@purple_d_dragon:

The exchange Krillin and Roshi had lasted less than a second, it was stated in the manga that half of that took like 0.2 seconds, I could say the entire exchange took 0.3 or 0.4

Ya that's an amazing speed feat, I was just saying it was never actually stated they went so fast nobody could see them anymore. It was probably just a quick blur and then they were done.

How fast do you think that was?

It's not about ignoring the feat itself, but we should take consistency into account as well. I'm not saying Goku and Cell are slower than Krillin and Roshi, but it doesn't seem logical that normal humans could follow their moves, even if they were just warming up. By that point, they're leagues ahead of anyone from part 1 Dragon Ball. Also, Dragon Ball was considered a gag manga at the time, which is the reason we characters like Kid Goku breaking the fourth wall.

So, it depends, you can chose between ignoring the speed feat of two fighters going all out to the point they were too fast for the viewers to witness or ignore when the viewers saw a warm up between Goku and Cell.

But if we ignore the latter, should we also ignore the fact that normal people in DB have been consistently shown to be capable of witnessing characters far above 21st Budokai Krillin and Roshi? Sometimes i wish DB was a little more consistent. lol

you ask too much.

and by the way, they break the fourth wall even in the Buu Saga.

Yeah, that happened in the manga.

also this:

It's stated in the databook that Vegeta is planet buster, although he is not a casual planet buster like Frieza

@purple_d_dragon: Just Toriyama's idea of humor.

@alextheboss: i understand why some people doubt vegeta planet buster statement but no way in the hell frieza will lose against naruto characters .

there are similar feats like this

@superproherohunter said:

@alextheboss said:

@avatarreiko:

He charged it for a good 10 seconds.

You realize that's not from a canon manga right?

@alextheboss: lol that is canon.

He casually destroyed Planet Vegeta in Bardock's Manga special which is canon and this was written by Toriyama himself.

Lol no it isn't canon. It's just a special. It's just as canon as all of the old movies. A.K.A. not canon at all. This manga wasn't made by Akria if you didn't know.

try this.

WHY are people still talking about this...............

@alextheboss: so, so, so

@superproherohunter said:

@alextheboss said:

@superproherohunter said:

@alextheboss: lol that is canon.

He casually destroyed Planet Vegeta in Bardock's Manga special which is canon.

Lol no it isn't canon. It's just a special. It's just as canon as all of the old movies. A.K.A. not canon at all. This manga wasn't made by Akria if you didn't know.

try this.

That scan isn't from dragon ball minus...

Please actually do research and know what you are talking about before replying.

@alextheboss:

@omega_kai:

I know that no point in telling me.

Exactly, which makes your statement of asking for proof of a person lying about planet busting pointless since everyone who said they could destroy a planet besides Vegeta in the saiyan saga were obviously planet busters. I would say Saiyan Saga Vegeta is small planet level and at best just barely Earth sized planet level. And it might be due to chain reaction.

He didn't lie though he just held back too much, so you shouldn't of brunt it up in the first place

I know Frieza didn't lie, but he thought that much energy could destroy Namek, but he was mistaken. Why couldn't Vegeta have been mistaken? Vegeta was enraged and could think clearly, their is no way he would know the exact amount of energy. Frieza, a guy who has destroyed many planets, and while calm, still messed up the power needed to destroy Namek. This doesn't look good for saiyan saga Vegeta's planet busting capabilities.

A least prove he lied without all this dumb speculation he said, he was planning on taking Goku and the planet with him twice. Now if you can't bring me proof of him lying, than you need stop debating with me I don't feel reading through your scrutiny repeatedly.

I really don't think you are reading my arguments. I should be the one saying I should stop debating with you since you don't read my arguments. I already said we don't know for sure if he was lying or not. That means we don't know if he could or couldn't planet bust. By simple debating logic if you don't know something for sure you can't make a claim like, Vegeta is 100% a planet buster.

I have no problem with you saying you think Vegeta is planet buster. I just don't like it when people say it's a 100% thing, just like I don't think we can certainly say Cell is a solar system buster.

So what it's shown repeatedly when he's furious he doesn't think straight.

Besides that moment I don't remember him trying to commit suicide just because he is angry. He did another attack like that on Frieza, but he knew if he lost to Frieza he would die anyway, and he couldn't transform anymore because he had no tail. If Vegeta already used his Oozaru form and it looked like Vegeta had no chance and was going to be killed, and then he decided to use a planet busting galic gun, then it would make sense.

Well he keeps implying Vegeta isn't a planet buster, yet while saying he is, his words are ambiguous.

I think he is like me. He knows their is evidence on both sides, but for the sake of debating he says he isn't because that's how debating works.

Well thank you because I totally forgot about this, and it helps me as well everything you said in this sentence helps my argument.

Nope it doesn't help your argument at all. I explained it for you in my last post. Vegeta knew he was going to be killed if he lost to Frieza. Vegeta could of still stomped Goku with his Oozaru form, it's not the same.

How about not jumping in the middle of debate again, because you don't know what your talking about. The only times I ever trust character statements is when they are backed up by proof, why're you bringing OPM into this, a least you could of posted a false statement of DB.

What? You are going off of character statements... There is no proof in the dragon ball manga that Vegeta can bust Earth... Like I already said, there is more proof against it. The absolutely only evidence he is, are his own enraged statements...

And why does it matter what fictional story it comes from? The cockroach said he could dodge light speed attacks and nobody thinks he is lightspeed, and Vegeta said he was going to destroy Earth. Cockroach dude has no lightspeed feats, and up to this day manga Vegeta still has not planet level feats.

@omega_kai:

I already told you multiple times of what's improbable,how about backup your argument with evidence other one statement.

As i said before, quote my exact words. And lol at that last part.. You've been doing the exact same thing.

So you can't show it? Concession accepted

I've shown you that Vegeta is a liar. Once again, your inability to comprehend even the most basic of statements is showing. I never claimed Vegeta was lying about that particular statement, just that it was possible. Now, are you going to be able to show me what i asked for, or should i just write this part off as nothing but hypocritical nonsense, which, btw, continues to spew from you more and more?

Concession accepted

You'll need a better argument if you want to be taken seriously.

Yes I have definitely, what you shown other one statement? Nothing

No, you definitely have not. You haven't shown me a lick of evidence that suggests Goku knew how much energy it would take to blow up a planet in the Saiyan Saga, and all you've shown so far in our argument for Vegeta is a single character statement, which is immediately contradicted by another one of his statements.

Deny are you kidding me, I've shown you twice that Vegeta was gonna take Goku and the planet out, simultaneously, and what the heck are you talking me showing a instance of them lying. I've been asking you first to do it this whole argument and lying about something lying what? How about you finish your sentence. But I should as expect as much because you have no argument I will take this as a concession too since you still fail to bring an instance of them lying.

You blatantly denied one of Vegeta's very own statements at the beginning of our conversation. It's there for everyone to see, so no point in trying to deny it. You've established yourself as a massive hypocrite during the course of this debate by ignoring one statement from Vegeta just because he was angry at the time, yet accepting another statement you want to believe even though.... you guess it.... he was angry at the time. As for me supposedly not finishing my sentence, how about you learn to read the posts correctly so there won't be any more confusion. I'll post it again for you. Show me one instance of Vegeta lying about something like this:

"Vegeta thought Goku could save himself even if he dodges the attack, which wouldn't make any as Goku can't survive in the vacuum of space"

That is the statement you've been trying to write off, is it not?

He even said he had enough of this planet just stop ignoring scans because you don't have an argument.

Good for Vegeta, but he also said Goku could save himself if he dodges the Galick Gun, which kind of goes against his own words when he said that he would wipe Goku out along with planet.. I also find it downright laughable that you're talking about anyone ignoring scans when i haven't said once that Vegeta can't bust a planet, nor did i say he was lying about busting any planets. You're the one writing off his statements just because they go against what you want to believe. I merely pointed out that your logic can easily work against you, but apparently you didn't like that very much.

If Goku would have dodged the Galick Gun he would have save himself but the Earth would be destroyed. What's not to get?

How is Goku going to save himself if Vegeta's Galick Gun was going to turn the planet to ashes along with Goku? That doesn't make any sense...

No you type ambiguous you can play it off all you want.

What do i need to play off when my words are there for everyone to see? Not once did i say Vegeta couldn't destroy earth. That's your selective reading making you see only what you want to see. lol

How exactly does this contradict my logic? I said since Vegeta was enraged, he wasn't thinking things all the way through,

You said "Vegeta was blinded by rage and the time and wasn't thinking clearly" - your exact words. That logic is applicable to any other statement he made while he was angry.

you said since he was engraded he was lying about destroying the planet, which you still have no proof of and never will.

I never said that at all. You're lying through your teeth more and more, pal. All you've shown so far to back up Vegeta being a planet buster is statements, and if we start taking those as 100% fact, even if they lack proper feats to back them up, this thread is entirely pointless because nothing Freeza could do would actually be able to kill Kaguya.

Then why post this your basically saying he isn't "Vegeta said that Goku could save himself by dodging his attack, which wouldn't be true if the planet got destroyed."

Because Vegeta's statements contradict each other and I'm pointing that out. And no, that doesn't mean I'm saying he wasn't a planet buster.

Did I say it did?

What would be the purpose of bringing in up?

I don't care your argument and mine are not same.

Ok, then you're deviating from the main point of our argument. If it's irrelevant, you're just wasting time for no reason.

Oh so you admit he as trying to destroy the planet.

Some of the worst comprehensive reading skills I've ever seen...

Do you take everything at face value? Just because he said, he save himself doesn't mean the Earth wasn't going to be destroyed do you proof the Earth wasn't gonna be destroyed? Nope doubtful but I do.

How is he supposed to save himself if the Earth gets turned into ashes along with Goku himself? Those were Vegeta's words, were they not?

Well its true since you can't proof anything yourself.

Yes, it is true that you've been using argumentative fallacies left and right.

Nice job at tryna twist my words I said he was planet buster because of three instances him trying to use an attack of that level.

I quoted your exact words. There was no need to twist anything. I'll quote them again:

"And in three instances he's used a planet busting attack, when he was at his most angry so you can draw an inference and can conclude he's a planet buster in the Saiyan Saga and Goku knows what he's taking about."

You can lie about it all you want, but the evidence is there for all to see.

Few instances of him lying? What few you must mean one and you no proof he was lying other than lie he said to himself. That fact that he said it to himself doesn't help you in the least bit.

I quoted both instances in the last post.

Doesn't matter though he would have still saved himself from the Galick Gun.

Prove it. All he said was that Goku can save himself, he didn't say Goku can save himself from the Galick Gun, which was going to turn both the Earth and Goku into ashes according to Vegeta himself. There would have been no possible way for Goku to save himself in that scenario.

Yea I did

You didn't.

You said he wasn't sure he would destroy the moon, if he wasn't sure he would have done it at fullpower which would be with his weighted clothing off.

Here's your famous reading comprehension skill at work again. I never said Piccolo wasn't sure, i said how do we know he was sure. You're assuming Piccolo was even thinking about removing his weighted clothing at the time, rather than just trying to destroy the moon as quickly as possible in order to stop Gohan. He was clearly trying to act fast after realizing that destroying the moon would cause Gohan to revert back into his base form.

And he was sweating before he destroyed the moon so your point is moot, and how can you judge he can barely stand up straight off a still image? He's standing up straight just fine in the next panel and the following one after that.

Piccolo wasn't sweating when he fired his attack:

Gallery

and how can you judge he can barely stand up straight off a still image?

Because i have eyes that work. Your eyes clearly need checked if you believe he wasn't standing up straight here:

Hmm, sweating profusely, slouched over, and breathing like he just ran a mile. If that's your definition of casual, you might want to take some time out of your day and buy a dictionary.

Now, can you prove that Piccolo calculated just how much energy he would need to blow up the moon, rather than just, idk... try to blow up the moon?

You knew what I mean

It's your job to make sure you type what you want to say correctly, not mine.

But he never faced a power as strong as Goku's before

What's your point? He clearly saw what Goku was capable of and estimated that 50% of his power would be enough to win, even taking into account that Goku may have been holding back. Freeza didn't even need to use that much power to defeat Goku. That was made evident in the manga.

just like Piccolo never destroyed the moon.

The two don't correlate at all.

See how your own flawed logic works against you

That was a rather pitiful attempt at trying to use my logic against me. Try a bit harder next time.

and how come Goku coming to reasonable conclusion about Vegeta destroying the Earth, who has ki sensing abilities for years be false?

You've yet to prove Goku knew for certain that Vegeta's blast had enough power to blow up the Earth. How would Ki sensing give him an idea on how much energy is required to bust planets. Is this one of your poorly thought out fanfics or something?

I really can't wait to see your next reply because your arguments really do suck,

Not only are your arguments egregiously terrible, but you don't even seem to have the basic comprehension skills required to debate. You continue to misinterpret other people's words and flat out lie as well. That's not even including the fact that you've proven yourself to be a blatant hypocrite..

that is the one and only blatant lie he told in the series and he was saying it to himself.

I've already shown him lie at least twice. Asking for proof that other DB characters have lied about being able to blow up planets is nothing but a sad attempt at drawing me into a Red Herring.

Aha no you haven't your agruments are getting worse as the debate goes on.

Your arguments have been rather shitty since the beginning of this debate, tbh.

Really just stop he's beem shown to have ego and pride all throughout the series.

And? That doesn't change the fact that he was lying.

You haven't lol

Denial at its finest.

Really your trying to pass off this as a lie pathetic.

Are you saying that was a truthful statement?

Got anything else?

I already showed you two statements from Vegeta that weren't truthful. By the way, he made both of those claims while in the same fit of rage as he was when he made the other statement. You know, the one you wrote off.

Oh I did

No, you most certainly didn't. I'd be genuinely surprised if you've actually managed to debunk a single argument during your time on this site.

all your arguments are cop, outs

That's rich coming from you.

back up yours,

I have. You can start backing up your arguments any time now.

you only used like one statement of him lying to himself. And you will continue to use it because you have nothing else.

The two examples I've shown of Vegeta lying are more than enough. You only want to write off statements when it's convenient for you. How unlike a biased DB fan...

My reading skills are fine

Best joke I've heard in a while. Sadly, your comments prove otherwise.

how about come up with good argument.

Take your own advice.

Are you talking about yourself?

Hell of a rebuttal you made there. It really only shows how weak your debating skills are.

Your just full of it.

Try thinking of an actual argument, rather than continue to make yourself look like a fool with these simple-minded replies.

Why do I need to show you example of him lying that's what you need to do I've been asking this from the start.

I've shown you two examples of Vegeta lying.

Your hypocrisy is astounding, really. You want me to show statements of Vegeta lying about blowing up planets, even though i never once claimed that he did, just that it's possible, but you can just write off other statements at your own convenience without having to show an example of Vegeta lying about something similar. You're joking, right?

You need to proof why he was lying in the first place about destroying, the planet

This only further proves you aren't able to read posts correctly. For the hundredth time, i never claimed that he was. It is possible, though, since he claimed Goku could save himself by dodging his attack.

the planet when I did ever say he was lying? Why are you trying use my argument are you that desperate?

I'm merely pointing out your double standards, which are hilarious, btw. You ignore one of Vegeta's statements because he was blinded by rage, but accept the other one. Your logic is poor.

Sure I didn't *sarcasm*

Quote my post. Your word isn't enough at this point, given the sheer amount of times you've been caught lying in this conversation alone.

Cop out argument not worth dealing with Vegeta was already stronger than First Form Frieza so it had t be strong enough.

Again, you only prove how bad your own reading comprehension is. To be perfectly honest, i knew full well from our previous discussions that you aren't the type to be taken seriously, but this is just pathetic..

What in the world does that have to do with my argument? Good grief, you really are a waste of time.

and?

And, that proves your fanfic false. Just because Goku can sense ki, doesn't necessarily mean he knows how much energy is required to destroy a planet.

You chose not to see it, debating you is like a wall.

There is no relevance. It's obvious Freeza can destroy a planet at that point, but it has nothing at all to do with whether or not Goku knows how much energy it takes to blow up Namek.

The planet was destroyed what are you talking about?

Goku didn't know the planet was going to blow up until after Freeza revealed that he destroyed the core. Try to keep up.

They not knowing Namek will explode in 5 minutes is relevant to them because?

Why didn't Goku and King Kai know that Freeza's attack was going to destroy the planet until after Freeza revealed it? Goku originally thought that Freeza just held back too much of his power and didn't try to destroy the planet because he was afraid of getting caught in the explosion.

You actually thought this made sense? How else with ki does Beerus need to take a science class on how to destroy the universe? Did the Z fighters take a science class on how to control Ki?

You talk about making sense, but you think ki sensing grants them automatic knowledge on how much power is needed to destroy a planet, even if they have never witnessed such power before.. lel

If that was the case, shouldn't Goku also know how much energy it would take to destroy someone like Freeza? He clearly didn't know if the Spirit Bomb would be enough, and was surprised to find out that Freeza survived it.

Do you have to have everything spelled out to you

Perhaps if you start forming coherent sentences, your words would be easier to understand.

if Frieza's display of power wasn't enough to convince him he can destroy planet than Frieza himself telling him that he actually did so should convince him.

So, Goku believes that Freeza is capable of destroying a planet.... What's the relevance here? He still didn't know that Freeza's attack was going to destroy Namek until after it was revealed to him.

Didn't you say since Goku never saw/used a planet busting attack?

I said he would logically have no way of knowing how much power is required to destroy a planet until after his fight with Freeza.

He wouldn't know if one was one but he used two Planet level attacks against Frieza the KKx20 Kamehameha and the spirit bomb so Frieza's attack was planetary,

He was worried that the Spirit Bomb might destroy Namek, but he didn't seem to know for sure:

Even ignoring the extremely flawed logic on your part, I'm not disputing whether Frieza's attack was or wasn't planetary.

the planet was destroyed in the end so your point is moot.

It was, but Goku didn't know the planet was going to blow up until after Freeza told him, so the point still stands.

I can't wait to see how many excuses you pull out this time.

I can't wait until you actually start backing up your claims with proof, but it looks like that could be a while.

@alextheboss:

I think he is like me. He knows their is evidence on both sides, but for the sake of debating he says he isn't because that's how debating works.

The craziest part is, i haven't once said that Saiyan Saga Vegeta can't destroy the Earth in this thread. I just find it hilarious how the person i'm debating with chooses to write off one statement Vegeta made all because he was angry at the time, yet accepts the planet busting statement as 100% fact, even though Vegeta was clearly angry when he made that statement as well. lol

@alextheboss

Exactly, which makes your statement of asking for proof of a person lying about planet busting pointless since everyone who said they could destroy a planet besides Vegeta in the saiyan saga were obviously planet busters. I would say Saiyan Saga Vegeta is small planet level and at best just barely Earth sized planet level. And it might be due to chain reaction.

Because I want proof of him lying and its obvious you have none, if you can bring up statements of him habitually lying whether it be past or present than his statement about him destroying the Earth loses credibility. In my opinion, I have provided sufficient proof he was an solid planet buster and had the intention to take out planet during his scuffle with Goku, You're being a massive hypocrite right now, you always talk about DB fanboys not providing proof to their claims, but here I am doing as such. However you continue to dismiss it because I guess since its some common misconception that all villains lie, I could make a claim and Cell was lying about Goku destroying the Earth with his Kamehameha. But there would be no way to prove he was lying, but there no way to prove he was telling truth either because the Kamehameha never destroyed the Earth, its up to the person who made the claim provide the evidence not to make some inquiry.

I know Frieza didn't lie, but he thought that much energy could destroy Namek, but he was mistaken. Why couldn't Vegeta have been mistaken? Vegeta was enraged and could think clearly, their is no way he would know the exact amount of energy. Frieza, a guy who has destroyed many planets, and while calm, still messed up the power needed to destroy Namek. This doesn't look good for saiyan saga Vegeta's planet busting capabilities.

Good point, but the Daizenshuu says otherwise.

I really don't think you are reading my arguments. I should be the one saying I should stop debating with you since you don't read my arguments. I already said we don't know for sure if he was lying or not. That means we don't know if he could or couldn't planet bust. By simple debating logic if you don't know something for sure you can't make a claim like, Vegeta is 100% a planet buster.

I have no problem with you saying you think Vegeta is planet buster. I just don't like it when people say it's a 100% thing, just like I don't think we can certainly say Cell is a solar system buster.

I don't even know how the idea of him lying is possible, his words make the intention perfectly clear, as shown constantly like with Frieza, Android 18, and SPC his thought process deteriorates a little to say the least, when he becomes enraged. How do we not for sure he was lying or not, evidence says otherwise.

Besides that moment I don't remember him trying to commit suicide just because he is angry. He did another attack like that on Frieza, but he knew if he lost to Frieza he would die anyway, and he couldn't transform anymore because he had no tail. If Vegeta already used his Oozaru form and it looked like Vegeta had no chance and was going to be killed, and then he decided to use a planet busting galic gun, then it would make sense.

Its like you don't even read what I type, its getting aggravating his ego and pride clouds his judgement even when he's not enraged like with not heeding the words of Trunks and everybody else with the androids, and not heeding Trunk's words about might Cell becoming to powerful for the both of them if he transforms again. I would say, with his fight with Goku he's the angriest he's ever been in his whole life at that point in time and coupled with the fact that his pride and ego took a big blow, it makes a lot of sense of him not thinking things through.

I think he is like me. He knows their is evidence on both sides, but for the sake of debating he says he isn't because that's how debating works.

Oh than he should make his words a little more clear.

Nope it doesn't help your argument at all. I explained it for you in my last post. Vegeta knew he was going to be killed if he lost to Frieza. Vegeta could of still stomped Goku with his Oozaru form, it's not the same.

If you say so

What? You are going off of character statements... There is no proof in the dragon ball manga that Vegeta can bust Earth... Like I already said, there is more proof against it. The absolutely only evidence he is, are his own enraged statements...

There is actually a lot of proof of him having the capability to destroy the Earth, such as him being thousands of time stronger than someone who destroyed the moon casually, he himself actually able make an artificial moon, and the Daizenshuu saying his attack has enough power to destroy the Earth.

And why does it matter what fictional story it comes from? The cockroach said he could dodge light speed attacks and nobody thinks he is lightspeed, and Vegeta said he was going to destroy Earth. Cockroach dude has no lightspeed feats, and up to this day manga Vegeta still has not planet level feats.

There is big difference between the two, Vegeta actually has a good amount of proof backing up what he says, while the cockroach has none and is immediately contradicted.

@thedarkpaladin

As i said before, quote my exact words. And lol at that last part.. You've been doing the exact same thing.

No, because I already told you before we have been debating this subject a while now, and you have audacity to talk about my reading skills.

I've shown you that Vegeta is a liar. Once again, your inability to comprehend even the most basic of statements is showing. I never claimed Vegeta was lying about that particular statement, just that it was possible. Now, are you going to be able to show me what i asked for, or should i just write this part off as nothing but hypocritical nonsense, which, btw, continues to spew from you more and more?

Concession accepted

You'll need a better argument if you want to be taken seriously.

Concession accepted you still fail to bring proof.

No, you definitely have not. You haven't shown me a lick of evidence that suggests Goku knew how much energy it would take to blow up a planet in the Saiyan Saga, and all you've shown so far in our argument for Vegeta is a single character statement, which is immediately contradicted by another one of his statements.

Goku just having a talk with Cell at very suppressed state knew he didn't have chance from beginning, in the Buu saga when Kid Buu lauched a sphere of energy, even without trying to go into a higher transformation, he already knew there was no possible way he could deflect it. Gohan, Krillin, and Piccolo never saw a planet busting attack, but right when Vegeta fired his attack at full power against Frezza they immediately started showing faces of shock and panic.

You blatantly denied one of Vegeta's very own statements at the beginning of our conversation. It's there for everyone to see, so no point in trying to deny it. You've established yourself as a massive hypocrite during the course of this debate by ignoring one statement from Vegeta just because he was angry at the time, yet accepting another statement you want to believe even though.... you guess it.... he was angry at the time. As for me supposedly not finishing my sentence, how about you learn to read the posts correctly so there won't be any more confusion. I'll post it again for you. Show me one instance of Vegeta lying about something like this:

"Vegeta thought Goku could save himself even if he dodges the attack, which wouldn't make any as Goku can't survive in the vacuum of space"

That is the statement you've been trying to write off, is it not?

Its funny how you conveniently left out what he said before and after, if Goku would have dodged it, he would of saved himself from being killed by the Galick Gun. Evident by him saying, dodge this one trash like he was baiting Goku to challenge his blast like Cell did with Gohan. I don't know how more else it can be explained, if Goku didn't have enough courage to take the blast head on the Earth would be destroyed. Did you forget that he said the planet will be blown to pieces if he saves himself and the following statement after that he says it again.

Even the Daizenshuu supports this:

Good for Vegeta, but he also said Goku could save himself if he dodges the Galick Gun, which kind of goes against his own words when he said that he would wipe Goku out along with planet.. I also find it downright laughable that you're talking about anyone ignoring scans when i haven't said once that Vegeta can't bust a planet, nor did i say he was lying about busting any planets. You're the one writing off his statements just because they go against what you want to believe. I merely pointed out that your logic can easily work against you, but apparently you didn't like that very much.

Bro, how I am ignoring scans? I'm the one that's posting them you have done no such thing.

How is Goku going to save himself if Vegeta's Galick Gun was going to turn the planet to ashes along with Goku? That doesn't make any sense...

Alright what do you think would have happened if Goku didn't take on the Galick Gun? It's like you never took English class your going off an misty statement "save yourself" could mean anything.

What do i need to play off when my words are there for everyone to see? Not once did i say Vegeta couldn't destroy earth. That's your selective reading making you see only what you want to see. lol

You don't have to say it word from word, you hinting at it works all the same.

You said "Vegeta was blinded by rage and the time and wasn't thinking clearly" - your exact words. That logic is applicable to any other statement he made while he was angry.

So what your saying is since he was angry he thought he could destroy a planet.

I never said that at all. You're lying through your teeth more and more, pal. All you've shown so far to back up Vegeta being a planet buster is statements, and if we start taking those as 100% fact, even if they lack proper feats to back them up, this thread is entirely pointless because nothing Freeza could do would actually be able to kill Kaguya.

I'm not lying you just can't debate and what does Frezza have to do with this discussion are you trying to move to another topic because your losing.

Because Vegeta's statements contradict each other and I'm pointing that out. And no, that doesn't mean I'm saying he wasn't a planet buster.

There is no contradiction how about get into English class that will certainly do you some good.

What would be the purpose in bringing in up?

To show he has no concern for his well being.

Ok, then you're deviating from the main point of our argument. If it's irrelevant, you're just wasting time for no reason.

What?

Some of the worst comprehensive reading skills I've ever seen...

You talking about yourself?

How is he supposed to save himself if the Earth gets turned into ashes along with Goku himself? Those were Vegeta's words, were they not?

Already explained above and you continue ignore the scan of the Daizenshuu saying Vegeta can destroy the Earth.

Yes, it true that you've been using argumentative fallacies left and right.

So are you still gonna bank on that one statement.

I quoted your exact words. There was no need to twist anything. I'll quote them again:

"And in three instances he's used a planet busting attack, when he was at his most angry so you can draw an inference and can conclude he's a planet buster in the Saiyan Saga and Goku knows what he's taking about."

You can lie about it all you want, but the evidence is there for all to see.

Ok

I quoted both instances in the last post.

No you didn't the are you trying to actually count the saving himself part as a lie?

Prove it. All he said was that Goku can save himself, he didn't say Goku can save himself from the Galick Gun, which was going to turn both the Earth and Goku into ashes according to Vegeta himself. There would have been no possible way for Goku to save himself in that scenario.

I already did.

Here's your famous reading comprehension skill at work again. I never said Piccolo wasn't sure, i said how do we know he was sure. You're assuming Piccolo was even thinking about removing his weighted clothing at the time, rather than just trying to destroy the moon as quickly as possible in order to stop Gohan. He was clearly trying to act fast after realizing that destroying the moon would cause Gohan to revert back into his base form.

Do you have any proof he wasn't sure? He didn't show a hint of uncertainty at all and removing weighted clothes would take nothing more but a few seconds really faster than that since he was in such a hurry.

Piccolo wasn't sweating when he fired his attack:

Gallery

That's just Toriyama being Toriyama

Gallery

You see his sweat is completely gone.

Because i have eyes that work. Your eyes clearly need checked if you believe he wasn't standing up straight here:

Hmm, sweating profusely, slouched over, and breathing like he just ran a mile. If that's your definition of casual, you might want to take some time out of your day and buy a dictionary.

He flew off just fine and walked just fine shortly after that I guess since Vegeta was looking similar to Piccolo it wasn't casual hold up a minute but he's fighting just fine in the following panels.

Gallery

Now, can you prove that Piccolo calculated just how much energy he would need to blow up the moon, rather than just, idk... try to blow up the moon?

Yes when he blew up the moon, what your asking for is just unreasonable there is no calculation with anything regarding Ki it's spiritual energy. Was there anytime in the Dragon Ball there were unsure about destroying an something other than a villain?

What's your point? He clearly saw what Goku was capable of and estimated that 50% of his power would be enough to win, even taking into account that Goku may have been holding back. Freeza didn't even need to use that much power to defeat Goku. That was made evident in the manga.

Than why would Goku who clearly saw what Vegeta was capable of with ki sensing abilities and went up against people who can destroy continents and moons, people that he beat easily, would not come to an estimate Vegeta had enough power to destroy the planet.

The two don't correlate at all.

I'm just using your own debating style against you.

That was a rather pitiful attempt at trying to use my logic against me. Try a bit harder next time.

Seemed pretty good to me how about you learn how to debate.

You've yet to prove Goku knew for certain that Vegeta's blast had enough power to blow up the Earth. How would Ki sensing give him an idea on how much energy is required to bust planets. Is this one of your poorly thought out fanfics or something?

Just how ki sensing told him to dodge Raditz attack but not Nappa's.

Gallery

Not only are your arguments egregiously terrible, but you don't even seem to have the basic comprehension skills required to debate. You continue to misinterpret other people's words and flat out lie as well. That's not even including the fact that you've proven yourself to be a blatant hypocrite..

You're by far one of the worst debaters on this site, you come up with an excuse every time you get shot down and than you accuse people of lies I should've of known Naruto debaters aren't worth the time. Please stick with Naruto from now on because its clear you have no idea what your talking about when involving DB.

I've already shown him lie at least twice (once). Asking for proof that other DB characters have lied about being able to blow up planets is nothing but a sad attempt at drawing me into a Red Herring.

I already told you before if you have another instance of him lying period, that will be fine.

Your arguments have been rather shitty since the beginning of this debate, tbh.

And you have no argument.

And? That doesn't change the fact that he was lying.

You act like he's an habitual liar, in the series of Dragon Ball when its statements regarding power everything is believed with utmost certainty the only person who lied regarding power is Beerus, but for a good reason.

Denial at its finest.

Your debating is trash and you stay on CV 24/7 how is that?

Are you saying that was a truthful statement?

He's not even lying it's obvious to me now you have never went to anything higher than 7th grade English class, he just can believe he being beaten by someone, who he thought he was post to win against easily. Like if Golden State is losing against Timberland wolfs and Stephen Curry says we can't be getting beat by them, its not lying he's just in utter disbelief that he's getting by an team that was post to be small work.

I already showed you two statements from Vegeta that weren't truthful. By the way, he made both of those claims while in the same fit of rage as he was when he made the other statement. You know, the one you wrote off.

You mean one and I didn't write off anything.

No, you most certainly didn't. I'd be genuinely surprised if you've actually managed to debunk a single argument during your time on this site.

I already whooped your ass in a debate twice on this site now, this will be the third.

That's rich coming from you.

You must be talking about yourself.

I have. You can start backing up your arguments any time now.

You obviously haven't you keep relying on that one statement nothing else.

The two examples I've shown of Vegeta lying are more than enough. You only want to write off statements when it's convenient for you. How unlike a biased DB fan...

Even if it was two you actually think that's enough lol how about you stop writing off scans and actually post some yourself that can actually help you, you do know how to do that don't you, I know some words might be a little too hard.

Best joke I've heard in a while. Sadly, your comments prove otherwise.

Sadly you never got past the 7th grade.

Take your own advice.

If you ever need some tips to learn how to debate remember I'm always here to help, I will even help you get out the 7th grade.

Hell of a rebuttal you made there. It really only shows how weak your debating skills are.

I know that rebuttal was pretty good.

Try thinking of an actual argument, rather than continue to make yourself look like a fool with these simple-minded replies.

How about you form one.

I've shown you two examples of Vegeta lying.

Your hypocrisy is astounding, really. You want me to show statements of Vegeta lying about blowing up planets, even though i never once claimed that he did, just that it's possible, but you can just write off other statements at your own convenience without having to show an example of Vegeta lying about something similar. You're joking, right?

I don't think you know what hypocrisy means.

This only further proves you aren't able to read posts correctly. For the hundredth time, i never claimed that he was. It is possible, though, since he claimed Goku could save himself by dodging his attack.

uh huh

I'm merely pointing out your double standards, which are hilarious, btw. You ignore one of Vegeta's statements because he was blinded by rage, but accept the other one. Your logic is poor.

Concession accepted

Quote my post. Your word isn't enough at this point, given the sheer amount of times you've been caught lying in this conversation alone.

How about you go back read why I said "Sure I didn't" in the first place.

Again, you only prove how bad your own reading comprehension is. To be perfectly honest, i knew full well from our previous discussions that you aren't the type to be taken seriously, but this is just pathetic..

What in the world does that have to do with my argument? Good grief, you really are a waste of time.

I don't like debating you at all lol most of your rebuttals are just insults and reading comprehension skills are just shit, you can't even draw a simple inference, if Vegeta was stronger than First Form Frieza who blew up planet and fires an attack at full power.... I shouldn't even entertain this notion. You have no proof he wasn't sure, he literally says " Are you gonna take the planet with him" how more sure can you be forreal you just don't know when to call it quits. I need some proof he wasn't sure. its up to you to back up these claims.

And, that proves your fanfic false. Just because Goku can sense ki, doesn't necessarily mean he knows how much energy is required to destroy a planet.

Of course it doesn't but if he's experienced power close to it, he can conclude what would be strong enough to destroy a planet and he wasn't wrong anyway the Daizenshuu said, Vegeta had the power capable of destroying Earth.

There is no relevance. It's obvious Freeza can destroy a planet at that point, but it has nothing at all to do with whether or not Goku knows how much energy it takes to blow up Namek.

There is relevance.

Goku didn't know the planet was going to blow up until after Freeza revealed that he destroyed the core. Try to keep up.

The planet was destroyed the attack he sensed was planet level period, actually how is this any relevance to anything its not like the core gives off Ki.

Why didn't Goku and King Kai know that Freeza's attack was going to destroy the planet until after Freeza revealed it? Goku originally thought that Freeza just held back too much of his power and didn't try to destroy the planet because he was afraid of getting caught in the explosion.

Because the planet wasn't destroyed.

You talk about making sense, but you think ki sensing grants them automatic knowledge on how much power is needed to destroy a planet, even if they have never witnessed such power before.. lel

You just keep twisting words

If that was the case, shouldn't Goku also know how much energy it would take to destroy someone like Freeza? He clearly didn't know if the Spirit Bomb would be enough, and was surprised to find out that Freeza survived it.

Pulling stuff out of your ass now, more Ki equals more powerful Goku didn't ever hint at being unsure the Spirit bomb not being enough after charging it. He explained the reason why he didn't throw it is because the power it had at the time wasn't sufficient enough to take out Frieza up until that last moment, he even yells out "Its done" giving a sense of assurcance it should get the job done. They couldn't sense his Ki at the time and didn't know he was actually there until they saw him with there very own eyes, Frieza also said he was almost killed too. Not his excat words but close enough.

Perhaps if you start forming coherent sentences, your words would be easier to understand.

I will try.

So, Goku believes that Freeza is capable of destroying a planet.... What's the relevance here? He still didn't know that Freeza's attack was going to destroy Namek until after it was revealed to him.

And

I said he would logically have no way of knowing how much power is required to destroy a planet until after his fight with Freeza.

What's the difference he used two planet level attack he should know.

He was worried that the Spirit Bomb might destroy Namek, but he didn't seem to know for sure:

The Spirit Bomb was Planet level attack period.

Genki-Dama [Spirit Ball]

First Appearance: Chapter 212

Category: ki manipulation

People: Son Goku

Special Characteristics: The Genki-Dama is a technique that gathers the energy held by grass and trees, humans and animals, objects and the atmosphere, and then fires it. A Genki-Dama gathered from only Kaio Planet had the destructive power to smash a super-speed brick. From this, in the case of a Genki-Dama made on Earth, if you consider the Earth’s size plus the ability to make energy from the sun your ally, it would certainly have the force to destroy a planet. However, it has the weakness that it makes you defenseless until fired. (Daizenshuu 2, p.211/Daizenshuu 4, p.111)

That's why King Kai said you have to be careful with it and was having doubt he could control it in his weakened state and Frieza took the brunt of the explosion.

And please don't say I'm not debating whether the Spirit bomb is planetary.

Even ignoring the extremely flawed logic on your part, I'm not disputing whether Frieza's attack was or wasn't planetary.

Ok

It was, but Goku didn't know the planet was going to blow up until after Freeza told him, so the point still stands.

No its not, just because he didn't the planet would explode isn't his fault, the attack he sensed was planetary.

I can't wait until you actually start backing up your claims with proof, but it looks like that could be a while.

I'm done with this debate, you just keep cherry picking your evidence and refuse to acknowledge anything that goes against your preconceived notions.

@omega_kai:

Because I want proof of him lying and its obvious you have none

I want proof of him telling the truth.

if you can bring up statements of him habitually lying whether it be past or present than his statement about him destroying the Earth loses credibility.

The line before he said he would blow up Earth he said he was the strongest in the universe...

I have provided sufficient proof he was an solid planet buster and had the intention to take out planet during his scuffle with Goku,

The only proof you gave me is the daizenshuu. Nothing besides Vegeta saying he can bust the planet is evidence in the actual manga. I already said he might be, but we can't be sure. Frieza said he was going to bust Namek just like Vegeta said he was going to bust Earth, but it didn't work right, and Frieza>>>>>>>Vegeta

You're being a massive hypocrite right now,

How?

you always talk about DB fanboys not providing proof to their claims,

Because they don't, and dragonball is one of my favorite series if you didn't know. Probably only second to star wars.

but here I am doing as such.

You gave some evidence, I gave some evidence.

However you continue to dismiss it because I guess since its some common misconception that all villains lie,

I'm not dismissing it, I'm saying we should take it with a grain of salt. He may or may not be a planet buster.

I could make a claim and Cell was lying about Goku destroying the Earth with his Kamehameha.

You could, and some people do. On a thread on what people think current Goku can bust the most votes went to moon level, lol. However I obvioulsy disagree with that. Goku is clearly planet level from power scaling. Also Goku wasn't hyping himself up by saying he could planet bust, other characters were saying it. Vegeta was the only one who said the blast was going to destroy Earth.

But there would be no way to prove he was lying, but there no way to prove he was telling truth either because the Kamehameha never destroyed the Earth, its up to the person who made the claim provide the evidence not to make some inquiry.

I completely agree with you here. I think there is plenty of evidence to say ssj Goku is a planet buster, but not enough to say Vegeta was for sure. For all we know Toriyama may have wanted him to be a planet buster, but then changed his mind when he started the Namek saga and kept them at just being able to massively damage the planet until Frieza. Toriyama changes his mind and forgets a lot of things.

I don't even know how the idea of him lying is possible

Except he lied seconds before he said he was going to planet bust. He also wanted Goku to be hit by his glaic gun. Have you never been mad and slightly exaggerated your abilities?

is words make the intention perfectly clear,

His intention was to kill Goku. As far as I know his intention wasn't to die, which is what would of happened if the planet blew up.

Its like you don't even read what I type

I do and some is wrong, lol.

its getting aggravating his ego and pride clouds his judgement even when he's not enraged like with not heeding the words of Trunks and everybody else with the androids, and not heeding Trunk's words about might Cell becoming to powerful for the both of them if he transforms again. I would say, with his fight with Goku he's the angriest he's ever been in his whole life at that point in time and coupled with the fact that his pride and ego took a big blow, it makes a lot of sense of him not thinking things through.

I agree he was enraged, that doesn't mean he would kill himself when he still had his Oozaru form.

There is actually a lot of proof of him having the capability to destroy the Earth, such as him being thousands of time stronger than someone who destroyed the moon casually,

Ummm no....

18,000/408=44

Vegeta was only 44 times stronger than the Piccolo that moon busted. The Earth has 81 times more mass than the moon and is calced to be over 1,000 times harder to destroy. However I don't like calcs because we all know Toriyama doesn't use them.

Now lets calc first form Frieza's power level compared to Piccolo.

530,000/408=1,299

It would actually make sense for Frieza to be planet level based off of power scaling.

he himself actually able make an artificial moon,

It wasn't a moon, it was a ball of light that gives off the light wavelength of a full moon.

and the Daizenshuu saying his attack has enough power to destroy the Earth.

This is your best argument, and it's one of the reasons I think he may just barely be Earth sized planet level.

Also destroying is a lose term. Would you call this destroyed?

There is big difference between the two, Vegeta actually has a good amount of proof backing up what he says, while the cockroach has none and is immediately contradicted.

I agree Vegeta being planet level is way more likely than the cockroach being able to dodge light speed attacks, but he still has not solid evidence that says he can completely vaporize a planet. If you go by the manga alone, even Frieza doesn't have an on panel feat of instantly destroying a planet. The first character that does that is kid Buu.

@alextheboss: I'm done debating this.

@omega_kai: Ok, lol.

But the main problem with your last argument was by saying Vegeta was thousands of times stronger than Piccolo, which was dishonest. People won't take you seriously if you blatantly lie.

@alextheboss: I just noticed you quickly edited that last part in when I wasn't looking lol if we go by power levels, he is a thousands times stronger. That's the only part I got wrong in my argument, you still failed to provide proof for any of your claims.

@omega_kai:

if we go by power levels, he is a thousands times stronger.

Like I said this is wrong...

18,000/408=44

By power levels he is 44 times stronger... I have no idea where you got thousands from.

@omega_kai:

There is actually a lot of proof of him having the capability to destroy the Earth, such as him being thousands of time stronger than someone who destroyed the moon casually,

Vegeta wasn't thousands of times stronger than Piccolo was when he blew up the moon. Did you drop out of math class or something? He wasn't even a hundred times stronger. You're continuing to lie through your teeth, it seems. Even more of a reason for me not to take the garbage you spout with anything but a grain of salt.

he himself actually able make an artificial moon,

He through a ball of energy into the atmosphere, and we have no idea what the size of it was in the first place. Not that it constitutes as proof of Vegeta being a planet buster in the slightest.

and the Daizenshuu saying his attack has enough power to destroy the Earth.

The Daizenshuu is filled to the brim with misinformation and multipliers that are contradicted by the source material itself. Toriyama doesn't even write those books in the first place:

"This Daizenshuu, the 7th and final one, is a huge Dragon Ball encyclopedia. I think the staff who make these books always have a rough time of it, but this one looked even more hellish than usual. They really did a great job. I am ridiculously forgetful, so despite being the author there is lots of stuff even I do not know anymore. It was often quite a nuisance, and I think having this encyclopedia around when the series was still running would have really helped me out. Darn it all. Anyway, my thanks to the staff, and to all Dragon Ball fans."

Straight from the mouth of the author. It's rather sad how this is probably the strongest piece of evidence you've shown thus far, yet it still doesn't guarantee anything. All you have at the end of the day are statements that aren't even remotely backed up by feats. Even if go by scaling, Vegeta's power is nowhere near close enough for him to be able to overcome Earth's GBE, which he would need to do if he was really going to turn the planet into ashes.

There is big difference between the two, Vegeta actually has a good amount of proof backing up what he says, while the cockroach has none and is immediately contradicted.

This is nonsense. Neither character has anything other than statements. Not a single feat backs up either of their claims.

No, because I already told you before we have been debating this subject a while now, and you have audacity to talk about my reading skills.

So, you can't quote my exact words? I'll accept that as a concession, because you're obviously full of it.

Concession accepted

How ironic, considering you basically conceded on this point by not addressing my post.

Concession accepted you still fail to bring proof.

Your comprehension needs work. Once again, I never made the claim that Vegeta was lying about being able to blow up the planet. As it stands, you're the one trying to write off certain statements that go against your rather terrible argument, yet fail to back up your reason by showing proof. Although, that doesn't stop you from thinking others need to prove claims they never even said in the first place. In other words, you're being a blatant hypocrite, which is honestly expected from a biased DB fan lime yourself.

Goku just having a talk with Cell at very suppressed state knew he didn't have chance from beginning,

Demonstrably false. He even claimed that he didn't have any idea what Cell's full power was, and wouldn't know for certain until the fight.

Herms' translation:

Chapter: 390 (DBZ 196), P13.5-6, P14.1-3

Context: After Goku checks out perfect Cell's power

Goku: “…Frankly, I didn’t think he would get so incredible…I don’t have any idea just how strong he could get if he felt like it…I won’t know unless I try, but I think I probably can’t win the way I am now.”

Funny how that example actually worked against you.

in the Buu saga when Kid Buu lauched a sphere of energy, even without trying to go into a higher transformation, he already knew there was no possible way he could deflect it.

Lmao, so Goku knowing that he doesn't have what it takes to repel an attack from Kid Boo us somehow relevant here because...? Goku should know full well what he's capable of dishing out, and seeing as how he's able to sense Kid Boo's attack, he can logically deduce that there would be no way for him to repel it. Funny how SSJ3 Goku still couldn't repel an attack that was anywhere near solar system level by feats. You're basically proving that Cell was talking out of his ass with this argument.

Gohan, Krillin, and Piccolo never saw a planet busting attack, but right when Vegeta fired his attack at full power against Frezza they immediately started showing faces of shock and panic.

The attack doesn't need to destroy a planet to scare the likes of Gohan and Krillin, and it certainly doesn't need to destroy one just to wipe out the area where all three of them were standing. Here are a couple of examples were Gohan, Krillin, and Piccolo show fear of attacks that don't even cause moon level destruction, even though all of them should be a good deal above Piccolo was when he destroyed the moon:

Gallery

Its funny how you conveniently left out what he said before and after,

Which would be?

if Goku would have dodged it, he would of saved himself from being killed by the Galick Gun.

Vegeta explicitly states that his Galick Gun would not only turn the Earth into ashes, but Goku as well. Besides, Vegeta never said that Goku would save himself from the Galick Gun, just that he would save himself.

Evident by him saying, dodge this one trash like he was baiting Goku to challenge his blast like Cell did with Gohan.

Except Cell never stated that Gohan would save himself if he dodged his Kamehameha. And right before Vegeta says this, he stated that his Galick Gun was going to turn both Goku and the Earth into ashes.

I don't know how more else it can be explained,

It could be explained in proper English. Perhaps you should try it sometime.

if Goku didn't have enough courage to take the blast head on the Earth would be destroyed.

It would have been turned to ashes along with Goku as well. Did you forget that your own scans say that?

Did you forget that he said the planet will be blown to pieces if he saves himself and the following statement after that he says it again.

See above.

Even the Daizenshuu supports this:

The Daizenshuu is just summarizing what happend in volume 20/ chapter 229... I can show you a canon episode summary that "proves" Beerus fought Goku at 100%, but that doesn't mean it's the truth.

Bro, how I am ignoring scans? I'm the one that's posting them you have done no such thing.

You're not only ignoring your own scan when you write off one of Vegeta's statements, but Herms' translation as well.

Alright what do you think would have happened if Goku didn't take on the Galick Gun?

Goku and the planet would have been turned to ash. At least this is what Vegeta claims.

It's like you never took English class your going off an misty statement "save yourself" could mean anything.

You really shouldn't be speaking on anyone's ability to comprehend anything, given the sheer number of mistakes you've made in this debate alone that even a toddler could point out... It also doesn't help your credibility much when you make a grammatical errors in the very same sentence. Lmao

You don't have to say it word from word, you hinting at it works all the same.

I haven't hinted towards anything of the sort. I'm just pointing out the possibilities. You claimed I said something that I didn't, and you were proven wrong. It's that simple.

So what your saying is since he was angry he thought he could destroy a planet.

He may have either overestimated his own abilities or lied in order to provoke Goku into challenging his attack.

I'm not lying

You claimed I said something that I didn't. This isn't the first time you've done this in our conversation, and now you're continuing to lie even more. You've proven yourself to be a compulsive liar throughout this entire debate, actually.

you just can't debate

I'm quite literally shutting down everything you bring to the table with the utmost of ease.

and what does Frezza have to do with this discussion are you trying to move to another topic because your losing.

...You're the one who brought Freeza into our discussion in the first place (see post #186). Hefty derp on your part, and the only thing I'm losing here is my patience. Quite frankly, I shouldn't have to hold your hand through this debate just because you have trouble comprehending simple posts. Also, i like how you just ignore every point you don't have a counter for. Your maturity is astounding.

There is no contradiction how about get into English class that will certainly do you some good.

First Vegeta says he will turn the Earth and Goku into ashes, then he says Goku can save himself if he dodges the attack. Maybe a quick Google search can help you learn the definition of contradiction.

To show he has no concern for his well being.

Which is not only an assumption on your part, seeing as how Vegeta was still planning on traveling to Namek and wishing for immortality, but also has nothing to do with a single one of my arguments.

What?

Read it again, slowly this time.

You talking about yourself?

No, I was actually referring to you, as if that wasn't obvious.

Already explained above and you continue ignore the scan of the Daizenshuu saying Vegeta can destroy the Earth.

You didn't explain anything, and just because it's in the Daizenshuu doesn't necessarily mean it's 100% truth. The Daizenshuu also states that Trunks turned Freeza into atoms, yet the manga clearly shows otherwise. Besides, the Daizenshuu wasn't even written by Toriyama in the first place.

So are you still gonna bank on that one statement.

I've shown two examples of Vegeta lying while he was enraged and one statement from him that contradicts another. Your argument hinges on a single character statement, and a databook summary of chapter 229. Laughable.

Ok

Try conceding to something like a man, rather than a spoiled child.

No you didn't the are you trying to actually count the saving himself part as a lie?

...Try going back and reading the two instances that I quoted. Maybe it will clear up some of your confusion.

I already did.

You failed to.

Do you have any proof he wasn't sure? He didn't show a hint of uncertainty at all and removing weighted clothes would take nothing more but a few seconds really faster than that since he was in such a hurry.

Do you have any proof that he was sure? DB characters are constantly surprised when their attacks fail to kill or even damage their enemies in the slightest. If they can sense how much power is needed to destroy something, why would that be the case?

That's just Toriyama being Toriyama

Lel, nice try with that cop out, but Raditz has absolutely nothing to do with Piccolo. Weren't you just saying this:

"and what does Frezza have to do with this discussion are you trying to move to another topic because your losing."

Even though you were the one who brought Freeza into our discussion... Now you're bringing Raditz in, too. You just can't stop showing how much of a hypocrite you are, can you?

Am I supposed to believe Toriyama just showed Piccolo sweating profusely for no reason? The only time he would illustrate something like that is if he wanted to show that his character was either nervous or tired, and seeing as how wasn't sweating at all while firing his blast, it's safe to assume the latter in this instance. Trash rebuttal from a trash debater.

You see his sweat is completely gone.

Irrelevant. Toriyama was made it perfectly clear that Raditz was nervous about Gohan's power level, hence the sweat.

He flew off just fine and walked just fine shortly after that I guess since Vegeta was looking similar to Piccolo it wasn't casual hold up a minute but he's fighting just fine in the following panels.

Lol, if you believe Vegeta assult on Recoome was casual, you clearly need to start using a dictionary before throwing around words you don't know the meaning of. Vegeta was shown to be worn out after firing that attack, and could barely hold his own against Recoome afterwards. He even had to resort to using sneak attacks and stay on the defensive the rest of their very short fight:

Gallery

I suppose you would like to just ignore the fact that Vegeta was hunched over, breathing heavily, sweating, and trembling after firing his attack, all to cover up your terrible argument?

Yes when he blew up the moon, what your asking for is just unreasonable there is no calculation with anything regarding Ki it's spiritual energy. Was there anytime in the Dragon Ball there were unsure about destroying an something other than a villain?

That doesn't prove Piccolo knew how much energy was required to accomplish the feat. You're just assuming that he did. The fact that characters are consistently surprised about their attacks failing to destroy their adversaries only supports case. If ki sensing actually works like you claim it does, they should already be aware of how much energy they would need to dish out to destroy another character.

I'm just using your own debating style against you.

You aren't using my debating style, lol. Your arguments are too poorly thought-out for that to be the case.

Seemed pretty good to me how about you learn how to debate.

If it seems good to you, I already know it's shit. Lol

Just how ki sensing told him to dodge Raditz attack but not Nappa's.

What a horrendous example... Goku knows full well when he's outclassed in power, unless you're trying to say he doesn't know his own strength, which is laughable at best.

You're by far one of the worst debaters on this site,

Which doesn't say much for you, since I've been constantly correcting the utter nonsense you post left and right. I don't think I've encountered a worse debater than you on this or any other site. Nohate would probably take you to school.

you come up with an excuse every time you get shot down

You haven't managed to shut anything down. The only argument you have even attempted to show evidence for is Vegeta's planet busting statement, and I've countered that with my own evidence. I never once claimed Vegeta couldn't destroy a planet anyway, and you can't prove without a doubt that he's able to.

and than you accuse people of lies

You've been caught lying more than once in this debate.

I should've of known Naruto debaters aren't worth the time.

Most Naruto debaters i know would effortlessly crap on any argument you bring forth. That's including myself, btw. Hell, I know plenty of DB fans that would tear you to shreds in a debate.

Please stick with Naruto from now on because its clear you have no idea what your talking about when involving DB.

The funny thing is, I've had to correct you multiple times on the subject of DB.

I already told you before if you have another instance of him lying period, that will be fine.

And as I've already said, he lied twice in the same sentence. Editing my words won't change anything. It's merely a demonstration of your own immaturity.

And you have no argument.

The posts tell a different tale. I've had to prove your nonsense wrong multiple times now.

You act like he's an habitual liar, in the series of Dragon Ball when its statements regarding power everything is believed with utmost certainty the only person who lied regarding power is Beerus, but for a good reason.

This is erroneous reasoning Why should we believe characters from Dragon Ball over any other verse? Juubito stated that he could destory the world with the Sword of Nunoboko, but that doesn't mean his claim was true. The same thing applies to Vegeta in this thread. There is evidence for and against him being a planet buster.

Your debating is trash and you stay on CV 24/7 how is that?

Meh, coming from a garbage debater like yourself, I can't take it too seriously.

He's not even lying it's obvious to me now you have never went to anything higher than 7th grade English class,

Just about every paragraph you type is littered with grammatical errors. I'd honestly be astounded if you actually made it to 7th grade English class with the crap you have been posting.

he just can believe he being beaten by someone, who he thought he was post to win against easily.

"He was post to win against" Rofl

Vegeta stated that he can't be defeated by a lower-level warrior like Goku. No matter how you slice it, that's a lie. He also stated that Piccolo surpassing his power level as a SSJ was impossible.

Like if Golden State is losing against Timberland wolfs and Stephen Curry says we can't be getting beat by them, its not lying he's just in utter disbelief that he's getting by an team that was post to be small work.

That sounds more like denial to me. A more accurate example would be Curry saying that the Golden State Warriors can't be beaten by the Wolves*.

You mean one and I didn't write off anything.

No, I mean two. Actually it was three if you include Vegeta's statement about Piccolo surpassing him. Also, you most certainly did write a statement off.

I already whooped your ass in a debate twice on this site now, this will be the third.

You must have been dreaming then. I recall you running away from our last discussion, you know the one where you were trying to wank Goku by saying he was FTL during the Namek Saga. I also recall smacking you around in the Naruto vs Krillin thread a while back when you tried (failed miserably) to prove Krillin's power was over 18,000 using non canon power levels from V Jump.

You must be talking about yourself.

If you read the post correctly, you would know that isn't the case.

You obviously haven't you keep relying on that one statement nothing else.

I reply to what you post. Not that this matters, once again, I never said Vegeta isn't a planet buster. You aren't able to prove he could destroy the Earth anymore than I can prove he can't. You're the one claiming that he can, so it's up to you to back your claims up, which you continuously fail to do.

Even if it was two you actually think that's enough lol

That's more than enough to prove Vegeta was a liar, yes.

how about you stop writing off scans and actually post some yourself that can actually help you, you do know how to do that don't you,

Sure I do, but apparently you don't, seeing as how you were the one that decided to write off a statement from Vegeta that went against your argument, then I proceeded to point out the major flaws with that line of reasoning, to which you called reaching.

I know some words might be a little too hard.

Well, I don't have trouble spelling simple words like "supposed"... lol

Sadly you never got past the 7th grade.

Even if that was true, it would only mean that you continue to get outperformed by someone with a 7th grade education.

If you ever need some tips to learn how to debate remember I'm always here to help,

Third-rate debaters like yourself are in no position to be helping anyone.

I will even help you get out the 7th grade.

Pretty much the same as above. People who consistently have trouble spelling two syllable words are definitely in no position to be helping anyone with their academics.

I know that rebuttal was pretty good.

Please learn what sarcasm means.

How about you form one.

I have been. Not that I really need to try against a scrub like yourself.

I don't think you know what hypocrisy means.

Shall I post the definition for you?

uh huh

Your responses are getting weaker and weaker. I didn't think it was possible considering how poorly thought-out your replies were even at the very beginning of our conversation. Lol

Concession accepted

Are you even trying at this point, mate?

How about you go back read why I said "Sure I didn't" in the first place.

I did, and replied accordingly. That's why I said your word isn't enough, you need to quote my post if you're going to throw accusations my way. Since you've been caught lying more than Vegeta (lol), your words aren't to be trusted a this point.

I don't like debating you at all lol most of your rebuttals are just insults and reading comprehension skills are just shit,

You shouldn't be talking about insults, and clearly you like debating me or you wouldn't have gone so far off-topic to try and cover up your mistakes. Admitting to them would have made this a lot quicker.

you can't even draw a simple inference, if Vegeta was stronger than First Form Frieza who blew up planet and fires an attack at full power.... I shouldn't even entertain this notion.

It's really sad to see such terrible reading comprehension. When did I say Vegeta wasn't a planet buster during the Freeza Saga? Honestly, is it that hard to read a simple post correctly?

You have no proof he wasn't sure, he literally says " Are you gonna take the planet with him" how more sure can you be forreal you just don't know when to call it quits. I need some proof he wasn't sure. its up to you to back up these claims.

No, you need to prove that Piccolo was sure, since you're the one making the claim. Shifting the burden of proof isn't going to work.

Of course it doesn't but if he's experienced power close to it, he can conclude what would be strong enough to destroy a planet and he wasn't wrong anyway the Daizenshuu said, Vegeta had the power capable of destroying Earth.

...How would he know how much can destroy a planet if he's never seen anything like it before? Goku never witnessed a planet busting attack until his fight with Freeza, so logically speaking, he would have no way of knowing if Vegeta was telling the truth. Daizenshuu statements are great and all, but by no means do they confirm anything. Especially when there's canon evidence that goes against it.

There is relevance.

How is it relevant to our discussion?

The planet was destroyed the attack he sensed was planet level period,

Doesn't change the fact that he clearly thought Freeza held back his power to avoid destroying Namek, which wouldn't make sense if he knew the attack was planet level.

actually how is this any relevance to anything its not like the core gives off Ki.

See above. So, how would Piccolo know how much energy it takes to destroy the moon? Do you believe the moon gives off ki?

Because the planet wasn't destroyed.

Nice job completely ignoring the second half of that post. I noticed you like to resort to such cowardly tactics when you can't think of a rebuttal. Anyway, it doesn't matter if the planet didn't get destroyed right away. Goku didn't know it was going to happen at all until Freeza mentioned it, and actually thought Freeza didn't try to destroy it because he didn't want to get caught in the explosion.

You just keep twisting words

I don't need to twist words. That's what you've been doing this entire time by saying that I claimed Vegeta wasn't a planet buster.

Pulling stuff out of your ass now, more Ki equals more powerful Goku didn't ever hint at being unsure the Spirit bomb not being enough after charging it.

And he was clearly surprised to find out that Freeza survived it, which shouldn't be the case since he knew how powerful both Freeza and the Spirit Bomb were.

He explained the reason why he didn't throw it is because the power it had at the time wasn't sufficient enough to take out Frieza up until that last moment, he even yells out "Its done" giving a sense of assurcance it should get the job done.

Except it didn't get the job done. Goku failed, and was later shocked to see that Freeza survived.

They couldn't sense his Ki at the time and didn't know he was actually there until they saw him with there very own eyes, Frieza also said he was almost killed too. Not his excat words but close enough.

Freeza said he thought he would die, and since he cannot sense power levels, I could understand why he was worried. In actuality, Freeza still had more than enough power after taking that attack.

I will try.

Alright.

And

If he knew how much power was required to destroy Namek, there would have been absolutely no reason for him to feel at ease after Freeza destroyed the core...

What's the difference he used two planet level attack he should know.

Can you prove Goku knew they were planet level attacks? Didn't think so.

The Spirit Bomb was Planet level attack period.

Not by feats it wasn't.

Genki-Dama [Spirit Ball]

First Appearance: Chapter 212

Category: ki manipulation

People: Son Goku

Special Characteristics: The Genki-Dama is a technique that gathers the energy held by grass and trees, humans and animals, objects and the atmosphere, and then fires it. A Genki-Dama gathered from only Kaio Planet had the destructive power to smash a super-speed brick. From this, in the case of a Genki-Dama made on Earth, if you consider the Earth’s size plus the ability to make energy from the sun your ally, it would certainly have the force to destroy a planet. However, it has the weakness that it makes you defenseless until fired. (Daizenshuu 2, p.211/Daizenshuu 4, p.111)

Ok... read your own translation, bro. It says a Spirit Bomb made on Earth has the force to destroy a planet if you consider the Earth's size, plus the ability to make energy from the Sun your ally. Goku didn't draw energy from the Sun when he tried to use it on Earth, and Gohan mentioned that Namek didn't have as much life as the Earth, so naturally, Goku wouldn't be able to draw as much power. We also have no idea what the conditions on the other planets near Namek were, or how much life was on them.

That's why King Kai said you have to be careful with it and was having doubt he could control it in his weakened state and Frieza took the brunt of the explosion.

That statement can be interpreted differently. Perhaps King Kai meant that he simply needs to be careful how much energy he gathers.

And please don't say I'm not debating whether the Spirit bomb is planetary.

Ok.

No its not, just because he didn't the planet would explode isn't his fault, the attack he sensed was planetary.

You have yet to prove this. Meanwhile, all evidence points against it. Goku thought Freeza held back his power and failed. He was surprised to be proven wrong.

I'm done with this debate,

Concession accepted. You would have avoided this much humiliation if you threw in the towel long ago, tbh.

you just keep cherry picking your evidence and refuse to acknowledge anything that goes against your preconceived notions.

I don't think you know what a Cherry Picking fallacy is.

Guys Powerlevels don't work like that. Nappa with a PL of 4,000 was a lot stronger than Piccolo who had a PL of 3,500. Just a gap of 500 is a huge difference in dc, strength, speed and durability. Nappa was toying with Piccolo and Krillin together with ease. It looked like he is 10x stronger than both of them combined.

Nappa having a power level of 4,000 doesn't seem right. He was able to give Goku a decent fight once he calmed down, and Goku himself remarks that the fight could take a while. Both Piccolo and Krillin were utterly outclassed and couldn't do much of anything against Nappa:

Gallery

Besides, if a character with a power level of let's say 300 can destroy the moon, then a power level of 600 would make you twice as strong as the moon buster.

Frieza still stomps. Nardo fap boys be fighting tooth and nail for a W.

@thedarkpaladin:

Nappa having a power level of 4,000 doesn't seem right. He was able to give Goku a decent fight once he calmed down, and Goku himself remarks that the fight could take a while. Both Piccolo and Krillin were utterly outclassed and couldn't do much of anything against Nappa.

Those are the official Numbers:

Piccolo-3,500

Krillin 1,770

Nappa 4,000

Nappa Max Power 7,500

So Nappa is something between 4,000 and 7,500 and he was only Max Power while fighting Goku against the others he was not powered up. Lets say he is around 6,000 while fighting Krillin and Piccolo 5,270 (both combined) vs 6,000 and he was still toying with them. If you would guess how much stronger would Nappa be 2x,4x stronger. Because that was how it looked tp me. And Goku having a PL of 8,100 against Nappas 7,500 was a big gap aswell. Goku was not fighting him serious at any given time other than whe he finished him off where he used a Kaioken.

Besides, if a character with a power level of let's say 300 can destroy the moon, then a power level of 600 would make you twice as strong as the moon buster.

And that is what i don't think is true. Radditz had a PL of 1,200 and was killed by an attack with a little bit more powerlevel (1,330) If powerlevels would work that way as we think than this attack should not have any effect on him because they are nearly the same PL. I belive that even the slightest differences can make a huge gap of power Reccome vs Vegeta, Nappa vs Piccolo and Krillin, Piccolo and Goku vs Radditz shown that you don't need to have a big gap in PL to have a huge gap in stats. However i belive this holds true till it is over half a million after that you need a lot more difference than 100 200 to see the difference

@kratosx64x:

Nappa Max Power 7,500

Can you verify this? I've never seen this number from any canon source.

So Nappa is something between 4,000 and 7,500 and he was only Max Power while fighting Goku against the others he was not powered up. Lets say he is around 6,000 while fighting Krillin and Piccolo 5,270 (both combined) vs 6,000 and he was still toying with them. If you would guess how much stronger would Nappa be 2x,4x stronger. Because that was how it looked tp me. And Goku having a PL of 8,100 against Nappas 7,500 was a big gap aswell. Goku was not fighting him serious at any given time other than whe he finished him off where he used a Kaioken.

Do you have proof that Nappa's power level was above 4,000 while he was fighting Piccolo and Krillin. Goku stated on panel that the fight could take a while. To me, they looked pretty evenly matched, with Goku having a slight advantage. The difference between Goku (pre Kaio-Ken) and Nappa (calm) didn't seem as great as the difference between Nappa and Piccolo + Krillin. I know Goku could have finished Nappa whenever he wanted to, but that's only through the use of Kaio-Ken, which multiplies your stats.

And that is what i don't think is true. Radditz had a PL of 1,200 and was killed by an attack with a little bit more powerlevel (1,330) If powerlevels would work that way as we think than this attack should not have any effect on him because they are nearly the same PL.

Certain cutting/piercing attacks seem to be effective against most DB characters. Krillin could have killed Nappa and Freeza with his Destructo Disk, and they were both much stronger than him.

I belive that even the slightest differences can make a huge gap of power Reccome vs Vegeta, Nappa vs Piccolo and Krillin, Piccolo and Goku vs Radditz shown that you don't need to have a big gap in PL to have a huge gap in stats. However i belive this holds true till it is over half a million after that you need a lot more difference than 100 200 to see the difference

I don't really agree with that myself. Goku vs Nappa pretty much convinces me that a big gap in power levels doesn't always mean a big gap in stats. Also, i don't believe Recoome has a canon power level, but i could be mistaken. The underlined part doesn't seem very logical to me either.

@thedarkpaladin: As far as i know are all PL till Frieza saga canon from the Daizenshuu and the Weakly Jumps so this is the picture from it:

Gallery

And yeah you are right that his pl was not 7,500 it is from a Game so not canon at all i apologize for that mistake. But i belive he must be stronger to keep up with Goku after he powered up.

And the thing is that it would be a little far fetched to think that by higher powerlevels 100 or 200 more would effect the fight that much. by a few thousands it is but not by higher numbers.

Goku 100,500,075 and Frieza with 100,200,075 had a better fight than Nappa with 4,000 and Piccolo with 3,500 so that would be logical.

@kratosx64x:

As far as i know are all PL till Frieza saga canon from the Daizenshuu and the Weakly Jumps so this is the picture from it:

I'm pretty sure V Jump power levels aren't canon material. Just look at the number they have for Popo, lol. In the manga, Popo admits Kami is much superior to himself. There's also a problem with Raditz being at 15,000. When Tien defeated one of the Saibamen, Nappa mentions that they each had a power level of 1,200, which was supposedly equal to Raditz:

And yeah you are right that his pl was not 7,500 it is from a Game so not canon at all i apologize for that mistake. But i belive he must be stronger to keep up with Goku after he powered up.

No problem, but there really isn't any proof that Nappa was stronger than 4,000 if we go by the numbers listed in the Daizenshuu.

And the thing is that it would be a little far fetched to think that by higher powerlevels 100 or 200 more would effect the fight that much. by a few thousands it is but not by higher numbers.

Well, there is evidence on both sides. Goku being over 8,000 yet claiming that it would take a while to beat an opponent like Nappa. There's also Goku needing to use kaio-Ken x3 just to fight with Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga.

Goku 100,500,075 and Frieza with 100,200,075 had a better fight than Nappa with 4,000 and Piccolo with 3,500 so that would be logical.

But then there's Goku vs Nappa, which was also a much closer fight than Nappa vs Piccolo. I think power levels are BS for the most part, but if we try to use them to scale a character's destructive capacity, we can't just make assumptions and say a character twice as strong as a moon buster has more than twice the amount of DC.

@thedarkpaladin: Yeah but we can't make assumptions the other way either because there are some things speak for both ways. Like Piccolo vs Nappa, Goku vs Nappa, Goku vs Frieza and so on. It was the best thing to get rid of PLs at the end of Namek Saga.

Yeah, this is exactly why i never liked using power levels to scale characters. lol

@kratosx64x: Actually, i completely forgot about this scan:

It should be sufficient evidence to prove that doubling your power level will also double your stats. There's also this translation from the Daizenshuu:

Kaio-Ken

First Appearance: Chapter 226

Category: ki manipulation

People: Son Goku

Special Characteristics: A technique that instantly amplifies the ki inside one’s body, multiplying all that person’s abilities, including power, speed, defense, etc. Since it makes one capable of utilizing battle power many times their own ability, it is extraordinarily effective during battles with formidable opponents. However, because it is impossible to multiply excessively far beyond one’s abilities, experimenting with an unreasonably high Kaio-Ken might destroy one’s own body. When the user’s battle power is 8,000, their limit is x2, and when they are at 3 million the limit is x10. However, since real battles are harsh, Goku often had to use Kaio-Ken above those limits. The Kaio-Ken’s designer is the North Kaio, but Goku was the first person to be able to master it. (Daizenshuu 2, p.212/ Daizenshuu 4, p.113)

Anime: The first movie it was used in was “The World’s Strongest Guy”, when it was shown during the battle with Dr. Uiro (Daizenshuu 6, p.52). In “Super Decisive Battle for the Earth”, Goku challenged Turles with Kaio-Ken x10 (Daizenshuu 6, p.60). In the movies after that, the “~x” number mark wasn’t used.

@thedarkpaladin: But he does not say that. He says he uses all his Ki to amp his stats. And the description says by amplifing your ki you can double your abilties but not that it doubles your PL or your Ki.