@purple_d_dragon: According to the Databook Kaguya couldn't maintain a physical form:
Also, in the scan of her going back to her humanoid form we can see she still hasn't fully regenerated her right side or her right arm.
The arm she had previously lost was her left arm:
... yeah, and? she is still can't grown limbs as she pleases if took her sweet time to regrown an arm (if you can't regrown your arm in seconds then your regeneration is not as good as cell's or Piccolo's), her form is irrelevant if we are talking about regeneration powers, she still recover her human self from the chakra mass, she didn't regenerate from nothing and her only showing with standard regeneration was growing back an arm. imagine if she gets her head blew up, or if Frieza totally destroys her body. can her "immortality" save her?
@purple_d_dragon: According to the Databook Kaguya couldn't maintain a physical form:
Also, in the scan of her going back to her humanoid form we can see she still hasn't fully regenerated her right side or her right arm.
The arm she had previously lost was her left arm:
... yeah, and? she is still can't grown limbs as she pleases if took her sweet time to regrown an arm (if you can't regrown your arm in seconds then your regeneration is not as good as cell's or Piccolo's), her form is irrelevant if we are talking about regeneration powers, she still recover her human self from the chakra mass, she didn't regenerate from nothing and her only showing with standard regeneration was growing back an arm. imagine if she gets her head blew up, or if Frieza totally destroys her body. can her "immortality" save her?
And it confirms that if she didn't have a physical form than she regenerated her whole body, including her head, from just chakra (not from nothing, but even Buu can't regen from nothing) which is further proven by the fact that she was shown regenerating an arm that Naruto hadn't cut off previously. It doesn't matter how long it took, it's still better than Piccolo's regen at least who can only regenerate if his head is intact.
@purple_d_dragon: According to the Databook Kaguya couldn't maintain a physical form:
Also, in the scan of her going back to her humanoid form we can see she still hasn't fully regenerated her right side or her right arm.
The arm she had previously lost was her left arm:
... yeah, and? she is still can't grown limbs as she pleases if took her sweet time to regrown an arm (if you can't regrown your arm in seconds then your regeneration is not as good as cell's or Piccolo's), her form is irrelevant if we are talking about regeneration powers, she still recover her human self from the chakra mass, she didn't regenerate from nothing and her only showing with standard regeneration was growing back an arm. imagine if she gets her head blew up, or if Frieza totally destroys her body. can her "immortality" save her?
And it confirms that if she didn't have a physical form than she regenerated her whole body, including her head, from just chakra (not from nothing, but even Buu can't regen from nothing) which is further proven by the fact that she was shown regenerating an arm that Naruto hadn't cut off previously. It doesn't matter how long it took, it's still better than Piccolo's regen at least who can only regenerate if his head is intact.
My problem with this is the fect chakra still has mass, regenerating from a mass of chakra is cool, but what I want to know if she can regenerate from a little piece of her head (if that's all she has left) only regrowing from a small piece of her body or a small amount of chakra.
-I know, the different translations mess things up a bit, in Spanish he said even if you dodge you will die along with the earth yadda yadda stardust yadda yadda... or something like that.
I don't understand Spanish, but the Viz translation says something similar:
-Well, if we are not taking a statement for one we shouldn't do for the other.
I haven't disregarded a single statement in this thread that wasn't contradicted by the series itself.
-Said for? herself? Black Zetsu? both are known for making up stories.
Since when is Kaguya known for making up stories? And that same logic can apply to Vegeta's statement as well.
-I know, the different translations mess things up a bit, in Spanish he said even if you dodge you will die along with the earth yadda yadda stardust yadda yadda... or something like that.
I don't understand Spanish, but the Viz translation says something similar:
-ok.
-Well, if we are not taking a statement for one we shouldn't do for the other.
I haven't disregarded a single statement in this thread that wasn't contradicted by the series itself.
-I mean the immortality statement.
-Said for? herself? Black Zetsu? both are known for making up stories.
Since when is Kaguya known for making up stories? And that same logic can apply to Vegeta's statement as well.
-Kaguya lied to their sons and people of the world as she erased their memories and made them worship her as a god... at least she did in the anime that explained their story.
@thedarkpaladin: I know my original post has a lot of spelling errors lol but I'm on mobile and everything is all clunky and it hard to quote and auto correct is a B****.
No thats definitely reaching it would be even Vegeta was a character known for lying in situations like those but he isn't.
It really isn't. You're trying to discredit a certain statement by saying Vegeta was enraged at the time, but call it reaching when others do the same. Textbook example of a double standard. Also, when has Vegeta been known to lie about things like this:
This pretty much confirms that Vegeta thought Goku could save himself even if he dodges the attack, which wouldn't make any as Goku can't survive in the vacuum of space. Not saying Vegeta wasn't a planet buster, however.
...
Yes he's been training in manipulatin, tracking and sensing Ki since he was kid and he's one of the best Ki users in the whole manga, he would definitely know how powerful an attack would. It doesn't matter even hasn't seen an attack specific power before his Ki sensing abilities tell him all the home if it's too weak or too strong.
Explain how he would magically know how much power is needed to destroy the earth if he's never witnessed something like that. That's an assumption on your part.
This isn't even bluff it's just his ego, I could just blame this on Toriyama's writing style since he writes on fly. Than his statement would actually be true, but it won't still doesn't change anything since this isn't even a bluff.
Your right, it wasn't a bluff. It was more like a bald-faced lie, and Vegeta knew it at the time. He had just received quite the beating from Goku before making that statement, as a matter of fact. You could blame it on Toriyama's writing style, but it wouldn't hold any weight without evidence to support your position.
This is reaching I said give me an instance of him bluff akin to that scenario its obvious he wasn't bluffing if we have a least three occcasions of him trying to do it.
How do you know he was trying to destroy the planet in during those other instances? I don't care if you want an example of him lying about a certain situation, i was merely pointing out the massive flaw in your reasoning, since you tried to use the cop out by discrediting a certain statement with the "Vegeta was enraged at the time" excuse..
How you think he was bluffing is puzzling,
What's honestly puzzling me here is how you came to that conclusion when i have said nothing of the sort. Please read the comments more carefully next time.
we literally have Piccolo saying he's gonna destroy the planet and one look at his face will tell you he's dead serious.
No, we have Piccolo asking if Vegeta was going to take the planet along with Freeza. That's sounds like he's unsure to me, but he did look worried, i'll give you that.
On top of the fact that Vegeta literally busted out crying in despair when Frieza kicked his attack away,
And this is relevant because...?
even Trunks said his attack would destroy the planet that's the main reason he had to redirect it.
Ok. I'm not disputing that he wasn't a planet buster at that time, or even during the Saiyan Saga for that matter. However, Vegeta clearly wasn't trying to destroy the planet in that instance.
@purple_d_dragon: According to the Databook Kaguya couldn't maintain a physical form:
Also, in the scan of her going back to her humanoid form we can see she still hasn't fully regenerated her right side or her right arm.
The arm she had previously lost was her left arm:
... yeah, and? she is still can't grown limbs as she pleases if took her sweet time to regrown an arm (if you can't regrown your arm in seconds then your regeneration is not as good as cell's or Piccolo's), her form is irrelevant if we are talking about regeneration powers, she still recover her human self from the chakra mass, she didn't regenerate from nothing and her only showing with standard regeneration was growing back an arm. imagine if she gets her head blew up, or if Frieza totally destroys her body. can her "immortality" save her?
And it confirms that if she didn't have a physical form than she regenerated her whole body, including her head, from just chakra (not from nothing, but even Buu can't regen from nothing) which is further proven by the fact that she was shown regenerating an arm that Naruto hadn't cut off previously. It doesn't matter how long it took, it's still better than Piccolo's regen at least who can only regenerate if his head is intact.
My problem with this is the fect chakra still has mass, regenerating from a mass of chakra is cool, but what I want to know if she can regenerate from a little piece of her head (if that's all she has left) only regrowing from a small piece of her body or a small amount of chakra.
Well I don't see why not because that little piece of her head would have chakra too.
In my opinion, it should hold about as much weight as the planet busting statements from both Vegeta and Black Zetsu.
-Kaguya lied to their sons and people of the world as she erased their memories and made them worship her as a god... at least she did in the anime that explained their story.
The people worshiped Kaguya after she put an end to the war, but began to fear her power shortly after:
I don't recall her ever lying to her sons, but i'm going off the manga here. I don't watch the anime because of all the endless filler. lol
@thedarkpaladin: I know my original post has a lot of spelling errors lol but I'm on mobile and everything is all clunky and it hard to quote and auto correct is a B****.
Don't worry about it. I can still make out what you're saying.
@alextheboss: Why are you showing me this that just proves my point about him not surviving if he dodges. Plus on how Vegeta never said such a thing
What? Vegeta literally says Goku can save himself if he dodges it...
I very much know about how accurate Herms translations are I myself have a Kanzenshuu account myself and go there regularly. Nonetheless, this just proves my point that if Goku had dodged the attack the Earth would have been destroyed, what Alex was saying that if Goku would of dodged the attack he might have survived. When Vegeta said no such thing, he uses that scan every time to argue against Vegeta not being a planet buster even though its faulty.
Are you missing the part where Vegeta says Goku may be able to save himself? Goku can't save himself if their is no planet, and Vageta isn't the type of person to commit suicide anyways.
@purple_d_dragon: According to the Databook Kaguya couldn't maintain a physical form:
Also, in the scan of her going back to her humanoid form we can see she still hasn't fully regenerated her right side or her right arm.
The arm she had previously lost was her left arm:
... yeah, and? she is still can't grown limbs as she pleases if took her sweet time to regrown an arm (if you can't regrown your arm in seconds then your regeneration is not as good as cell's or Piccolo's), her form is irrelevant if we are talking about regeneration powers, she still recover her human self from the chakra mass, she didn't regenerate from nothing and her only showing with standard regeneration was growing back an arm. imagine if she gets her head blew up, or if Frieza totally destroys her body. can her "immortality" save her?
And it confirms that if she didn't have a physical form than she regenerated her whole body, including her head, from just chakra (not from nothing, but even Buu can't regen from nothing) which is further proven by the fact that she was shown regenerating an arm that Naruto hadn't cut off previously. It doesn't matter how long it took, it's still better than Piccolo's regen at least who can only regenerate if his head is intact.
My problem with this is the fect chakra still has mass, regenerating from a mass of chakra is cool, but what I want to know if she can regenerate from a little piece of her head (if that's all she has left) only regrowing from a small piece of her body or a small amount of chakra.
Well I don't see why not because that little piece of her head would have chakra too.
Yeah, but not all of it. She had no infinite chakra as she got tired during the fight, losing parts of her body which are made mostly of chakra will end up affecting her regen, as as I said, she didn't instantly regrow her arm. she could only regenerate after absorbing a lot of chakra from the humans trapped in the mugen tsukuyomi and regaining control of herself.
Piccolo's regen taxes him, but at least it was fast and he has the FEATS to prove he can regrow a body from his head.
Cell is the same but better as he actually gains a power boost after regenerating.
This thread has been people asking about feats, so, by feats, Piccolo and Cell still have better regeneration showings as they grow entire bodies from small pieces, unlike Kaguya who didn't instantly grow her arm and when she reformed her body she did by having a giant mass of chakra to regenerate from.
By the way, I found a funny Dragon Ball Naruto crossover manga, I will be leaving this thread, there is no more fun to be have with it.
My final thought is Frieza 8/10 as Madara (by using truth seeking balls) and Sasuke (genjutsu, maybe) seem to be the only factors here. Naruto's attacks wouldn't even tickle him and Kaguya with out her coach will get herself eventually vaporised (we are only using in panel feats so Kaguya can't planet bust and her bones could arguably be stop by Frieza's durability which was enough to save him from a planet explosion while being half dead).
By the way, if you think Kaguya can BFR Frieza, she would need to land her hands on him first, and as I posted before, he dodges more times than he tanks.
In my opinion, it should hold about as much weight as the planet busting statements from both Vegeta and Black Zetsu.
-Kaguya lied to their sons and people of the world as she erased their memories and made them worship her as a god... at least she did in the anime that explained their story.
The people worshiped Kaguya after she put an end to the war, but began to fear her power shortly after:
I don't recall her ever lying to her sons, but i'm going off the manga here. I don't watch the anime because of all the endless filler. lol
She put the people in the planet inside her Mugen Tsukuyomi by opening a portal to another dimension that showed a Moon which she used to put everyone to sleep, by ending the war you mean putting them inside the illusion and releasing only a few people off the jutsu so they would serve her, she erased their memories so they would forget what she did and then made up laws so the humans would be manure for the tree.
but yeah, statements won't do in this thread.
Also, I got myself reading a Naruto/Dragon Ball fanmade manga where Goku ends up in Naruto's world just before shippuden, funny little thing. so I won't be posting in this thread anymore, it was fun but now I have other things to do, I haven't talk much with my GF because of this thread, so bye.
She put the people in the planet inside her Mugen Tsukuyomi by opening a portal to another dimension that showed a Moon which she used to put everyone to sleep, by ending the war you mean putting them inside the illusion and releasing only a few people off the jutsu so they would serve her, she erased their memories so they would forget what she did and then made up laws so the humans would be manure for the tree.
That definitely sounds like anime filler to me. I know in the manga it was hinted that she was able to cast her jutsu upon the populace because of her Sharingan and Byakugan:
I also don't remember the manga saying anything about Kaguya erasing the memories of everyone on the planet, but i'm honestly too lazy to go back and check. :p
but yeah, statements won't do in this thread.
Well, i don't we should just disregard them at the same time, but it is true that none of the statements being debated here have feats to back them up.
Also, I got myself reading a Naruto/Dragon Ball fanmade manga where Goku ends up in Naruto's world just before shippuden, funny little thing. so I won't be posting in this thread anymore, it was fun but now I have other things to do, I haven't talk much with my GF because of this thread, so bye.
Mind sending me a link so i can read it, too? I'll see you around the forums another time.
@thedarkpaladin: It's only in spanish, and it wasn't that long, only 6 chapters, Goku steamrolled everyone until he met Itachi, he broke out his Genjutsu but then got trapped in another non torture genjutsu, so he didn't tried to escape it and just enjoyed it, while poor Itachi had to stay still because of the effort of containing Goku's power.
And yeah, he powered up to break out the Genjutsu, Kisame tried to drown him then.
And yeah, call me whenever you think I may be needed in a Naruto/Dragon Ball/Toriko thread, as I've read about those three more than anything else.
"It really isn't. You're trying to discredit a certain statement by saying Vegeta was enraged at the time, but call it reaching when others do the same. Textbook example of a double standard. Also, when has Vegeta been known to lie about things like this:"
Yes it really is, Vegeta has been known to show several times to do stuff without thinking, another example is when Cell killed Trunks. He blindly attacked him even though he was beaten by him easily before ,while he was just warming up and this time he came back more powerful than ever. Even when Andriod 18 broke his arm lol he still tried to keep on fighting, even though he was outmatched. Also I meant to say Vegeta is not known for lying in situations like those spelling errors I was talking about.
"Explain how he would magically know how much power is needed to destroy the earth if he's never witnessed something like that. That's an assumption on your part."
Because he is a master at Ki sensing and can make an estimate, really this shouldn't be a discussion right now he does it every time. Every time he dodges or tanks an attack is proof enough that he would know how much would go into planet busting. Piccolo never destroyed the moon before but he knows how much Ki goes into busting it they are masters at using their Ki.
"Your right, it wasn't a bluff. It was more like a bald-faced lie, and Vegeta knew it at the time. He had just received quite the beating from Goku before making that statement, as a matter of fact. You could blame it on Toriyama's writing style, but it wouldn't hold any weight without evidence to support your position."
Vegeta is known as prideful, arrogant, and someone full of ego it wouldn't be surprising for him to say that when he's getting beaten. He was Prince of his race and a elite warrior trained since birth and the strongest of his race, yet he's beaten by some low class warrior who was shipped off to another planet right when he was born. It shouldn't be surprising seeing him say stuff like that.
"How do you know he was trying to destroy the planet in during those other instances? I don't care if you want an example of him lying about a certain situation, i was merely pointing out the massive flaw in your reasoning, since you tried to use the cop out by discrediting a certain statement with the "Vegeta was enraged at the time" excuse.."
Because as shown in the manga when he's blinded by rage he doesn't think clearly.
"What's honestly puzzling me here is how you came to that conclusion when i have said nothing of the sort. Please read the comments more carefully next time"
You were certainly inferring it, you even said in a past comment "how do we know if he is bluffing or not."
"No, we have Piccolo asking if Vegeta was going to take the planet along with Freeza. That's sounds like he's unsure to me, but he did look worried, i'll give you that."
What lol how does that me him unsure that you did read what you just typed lol how you get anymore clearer with that coupled with the facial expressions and factoring in authors intent.
And this is relevant because...?
You can see he's clearly in distraught and was screaming at the top of his lungs saying he was a Super Saiyan. It's obvious he put everything he had into that attack even noted by Krillin.
"Ok. I'm not disputing that he wasn't a planet buster at that time, or even during the Saiyan Saga for that matter. However, Vegeta clearly wasn't trying to destroy the planet in that instance."
I already said he wasn't that's why he redirected the attack but he was firing at full power and was sure pissed off. Which shows when he's blined by rage he can't think clearly.
@purple_d_dragon: The artwork looks kind of mediocre, tbh. Are you all caught up with Toriko?
Yeah, fan made, but at least is funny, I've found some very well made Manga from fans, and this one is poor in comparison.
But this one is not even finished yet.
And yes, I did read all of Toriko, much better than I expected, definitely is now one of my favourites, and their power is at least Buu Saga levels for the top tiers.
@alextheboss: Why are you showing me this that just proves my point about him not surviving if he dodges. Plus on how Vegeta never said such a thing
What? Vegeta literally says Goku can save himself if he dodges it...
I very much know about how accurate Herms translations are I myself have a Kanzenshuu account myself and go there regularly. Nonetheless, this just proves my point that if Goku had dodged the attack the Earth would have been destroyed, what Alex was saying that if Goku would of dodged the attack he might have survived. When Vegeta said no such thing, he uses that scan every time to argue against Vegeta not being a planet buster even though its faulty.
Are you missing the part where Vegeta says Goku may be able to save himself? Goku can't save himself if their is no planet, and Vageta isn't the type of person to commit suicide anyways.
Vegeta never said "You may be able to save yourself ", never, am I blind or something because Paladin posted Herms translation and it says that no where, so why do you keep repeating it? If you don't believe Herms translation (which is more accurate by the way) Viz says basically the same thing.
Yes it really is Vegeta has been known shown to several times to do stuff without thinking several times another example is when Cell killed Trunks.
What does that have to do with anything we're talking about here? You're clearly trying to use an excuse only when it's convenient to your argument, but call it reaching when someone uses that logic against you...
He blindly attack him even though he was beaten by him before him easy while he was warming up and this time he came back more powerful than ever.
This also has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Vegeta was clearly pissed off at Cell for killing Trunks and decided to attack him for it. How exactly is this relevant at all to Vegeta outright lying about something and you trying to play it off with the "well he was enraged" excuse?
Even when Andriod 18 broke his arm lol he still tried to keep on fighting, even though when he was outmatched.
Your point being?
Also I meant to say Vegeta is not known for lying in situations like those spelling errors I was talking about.
Alright, but you still haven't answered my question... Since when has Vegeta been known to lie or bluff about something like this:
This pretty much confirms that Vegeta thought Goku could save himself even if he dodges the attack, which wouldn't make any as Goku can't survive in the vacuum of space. Not saying Vegeta wasn't a planet buster, however.
You want to discredit this statement by saying Vegeta was enraged, but you don't believe that should apply to his planet busting statement because he's never been known to bluff about things like that....even thought that's quite literally the only time he's actually tired to destroy a planet on panel. So, why should the underlined statement be any different if we go by your logic?
Because he is a master at Ki sensing and can make an estimate really this shouldn't be a discussion right now he does it every time. Every time he dodges or tanks an attack is proof enough that he would know how much would go into planet busting. Piccolo never destroyed the moon before but he knows how much can Ki goes into busting it they are masters at using their Ki.
He clearly didn't know Freeza destroyed Namek's core. Same with King kai, who's also proficient in the art of sensing ki. Goku should only know how much power is needed to destroy a planet after his fight with Freeza. We can't be sure that Piccolo knew he would have destroyed the moon with a single ki blast. He just wanted to get rid of it to stop Gohan.
Vegeta is known as prideful, arrogant, and someone full of ego it wouldn't be surprising for him to say that when he's getting beaten. He was Prince of his race and a elite warrior trained since birth and the strongest of his race, yet he's beaten by some low class warrior who was shipped off to another planet right when he was born. It shouldn't be surprising seeing him say stuff like that.
But that doesn't change the fact that he was clearly lying in that instance, not only because he was aware of Freeza's superiority, which he flat-out admits later on, but because he knew Goku surpassed him by using Kaio-Ken x3. Herms' translation:
Chapter: 230 (DBZ 36), P14.5
Vegeta: “It can’t be!! H-He's surpassed my battle power!!”
Besides, even though Vegeta is prideful and arrogant, he knows full well when he has been surpassed even if it's by someone he deems inferior.
Herms' translation:
Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P11.7
Vegeta: “The battle power I sensed then really did surpass mine, as a Super Saiyan…Im-impossible…He’s just a Namekian...”
Because as shown in the manga when he's blinded by rage he doesn't think clearly.
...That doesn't mean he was actually trying to destroy the planet while fighting Freeza, and we know for certain he wasn't trying to against Cell, even though he was enraged at the time.
You were certainly inferring it, you even said in a past comment "how do we know if he is bluffing or not."
I didn't infer anything of the sort. What i did do, however, was point out the major flaw in your reasoning.
As for this:
"how do we know if he is bluffing or not."
You were the who asked me to find an example of him bluffing about destroying a planet. I said that we would have no way of knowing for certain whether he was bluffing or not since he never destroyed a planet on panel, which is true. That doesn't mean i believe he was, and i never gave my opinion on the matter. Don't try to twist my words.
What lol how does that me him unsure that you did read what you just typed lol how you get anymore clearer with that couple with the facial expressions and factoring in authors intent.
Because he's asking Vegeta if he would take the planet along with Freeza. He didn't outright say that Vegeta would have destroyed the planet.
You can see he's clearly in distraught and was screaming at the top of his lungs saying he was a Super Saiyan. It's obvious he put everything he had into that attack even noted by Krillin.
And this still isn't relevant at all to the discussion at hand. Like i said before, i'm not disputing whether Vegeta was a planet buster or not.
I already said he wasn't that's why he redirected the attack but he was firing at full power and was sure pissed off.
@purple_d_dragon: Yeah, Toriko was better than i thought it would be. I'm thinking about catching up on Bleach, but just can't seem to get interested enough to actually sit down and start reading it. lol
"What does that have to do with anything we're talking about here? You're clearly trying to use an excuse only when it's convenient to your argument, but call it reaching when someone uses that logic against you..."
It shows that when Vegeta gets into fits of rage he doesn't think about the repercussions of his actions, what you're saying his highly unlikely, in my opinion it's reaching. What you're doing right now is very conventional way of debating , which is find every excuse to use even if those excuses are implausible.
"This also has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Vegeta was clearly pissed off at Cell for killing Trunks and decided to attack him for it. How exactly is this relevant at all to Vegeta outright lying about something and you trying to play it off with the "well he was enraged" excuse?"
This has everything to do with what we're talking about go back and read your comments, you contradict yourself you say you don't deny Vegeta is a planet buster, but ask for proof. That he is which is it you do believe he is but or you don't? Well anyways, this proves it doesn't matter if Vegeta would have died along with the planet because as shown in many instances, his mind is clouded and doesn't think of what will happen after. And in threee instances he's used a planet busting attack, when he was at his most angry so you can draw an inference and can conclude he's a planet buster in the Saiyan Saga and Goku knows what he's taking about.
Your point being?
When he's mad he's not thinking clearly. So destroying a planet even though he's on it is plausible especially with his history.
"Alright, but you still haven't answered my question... Since when has Vegeta been known to lie or bluff about something like this:"
I never said he wasnt one to do that I'm the one that brung it up the first place. This proves my point when has he? When has been known to lie in battle and bluff about his power in scenario similar to him threatening Goku with his Galick Gun?
"You want to discredit this statement by saying Vegeta was enraged, but you don't believe that should apply to his planet busting statement because he's never been known to bluff about things like that....even thought that's quite literally the only time he's actually tired to destroy a planet on panel. So, why should the underlined statement be any different if we go by your logic?"
Yep and you said yourself what he said it wasn't a bluff "Your right, it wasn't a bluff. It was more like a bald-faced lie, and Vegeta knew it at the time." I need something credible to say he can't bust a planet during Saiyan Saga. Your logic is just because, he said lie in the chapter of his planet busting statement, nothing that comes out of his mouth from that point on is the truth.
"He clearly didn't know Freeza destroyed Namek's core. Same with King kai, who's also proficient in the art of sensing ki. Goku should only know how much power is needed to destroy a planet after his fight with Freeza. We can't be sure that Piccolo knew he would have destroyed the moon with a single ki blast. He just wanted to get rid of it to stop Gohan."
Yea right lol you see how your own logic was just used against you that isn't a adqueate counter. That's merely just an idea not worth arguing against.
"But that doesn't change the fact that he was clearly lying in that instance, not only because he was aware of Freeza's superiority, which he flat-out admits later on, but because he knew Goku surpassed him by using Kaio-Ken x3. Herms' translation:"
This is alll irrelevant it's just ego, after he got his lights punched out by Goku, he said refused to believe his PL passed his and you keep saying you're not disputing Vegeta is a planet buster, than what are you disputing? And what is this point of this debate
"Besides, even though Vegeta is prideful and arrogant, he knows full well when he has been surpassed even if it's by someone he deems inferior."
Herms' translation:
Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P11.7
Vegeta: “The battle power I sensed then really did surpass mine, as a Super Saiyan…Im-impossible…He’s just a
Namekian
Correct when he fighting the very person who more powerful than him
...That doesn't mean he was actually trying to destroy the planet while fighting Freeza, and we know for certain he wasn't trying to against Cell, even though he was enraged at the time.
I never said he did for either
"I didn't infer anything of the sort. What i did do, however, was point out the major flaw in your reasoning."
Yes you did your own comments basically implied it "Can you prove it? Goku has no way of knowing if Vegeta could actually destroy the planet or not."
You reply to my comment implying Vegeta was lying about his destroying the planet
actually show me one instance of Vegeta bluffing in a scenario akin to this one.
Better yet, i'll show you an example of Vegeta's dishonesty using this very same scenario:
Chapter: 231 (DBZ 37), P1.2, P2.1
Context: after Goku beats him up with the Kaio-Ken x3
Vegeta: “This…this cannot be happening!!! I…I am a Super Elite!! I can not be beaten by some lower-level warrior like him!!! [ ] I am the best in the universe…!!!!”
Obviously Vegeta is not the best in the universe and he knew this himself at the time. It's also a bit of an exaggeration to say he can't be beaten by some lower-level warrior like Goku, when he clearly can.
"You were the who asked me to find an example of him bluffing about destroying a planet. I said that we would have no way of knowing for certain whether he was bluffing or not since he never destroyed a planet on panel, which is true. That doesn't mean i believe he was, and i never gave my opinion on the matter. Don't try to twist my words."
Yes you did you basically said Vegeta was lying
Because he's asking Vegeta if he would take the planet along with Freeza. He didn't outright say that Vegeta would have destroyed the planet.
So what Vegeta obviously didn't care about the planet to launch an attack of that magnitude.
And this still isn't relevant at all to the discussion at hand. Like i said before, i'm not disputing whether Vegeta was a planet buster or not.
If you aren't disputing it than why ask me about if Goku knows how much Ki goes into planet busting?
Cool, i guess.
Yes I know and a side note I'm never making a big ass post on mobile ever, ever , and ever again.
@alextheboss: I don't feel like going back and quoting your comment but your basically saying it right here too which is Vegeta attack hit the Earth it wouldn't have been destroyed. The daizenshuu says his attack would have destroyed the earth anyway so think what you will just dont be a hypocrite and use the daizenshuu to support your argument for or against DB.
@omega_kai: I'm not saying it can't destroy the planet, I'm saying it's not 100% it can. If it wasn't for the all the evidence in the Namek saga that implies Frieza is the only planet level character I would say Vegeta is a planet buster.
It shows that when Vegeta gets into fits of rage he doesn't think about the repercussions of his actions, what you're saying his highly unlikely, in my opinion it's reaching. What you're doing right now is very conventional way of debating , which is find every excuse to use even if those excuses are implausible.
And what exactly have i said in your opinion that's highly unlikely? What you're doing here is establishing yourself as a pretty massive hypocrite by using a certain line of reasoning that you think supports your position, yet instantly writing off that very same reasoning when it's turned against you.
This has everything to do with what we're talking about go back and read your comments, you contradict yourself you say you don't deny Vegeta is a planet buster, but ask for proof.
I'm genuinely starting to wonder if you've actually been reading what I've wrote correctly or if you're just seeing what you want to see. Not once have i asked you to prove that Vegeta is a planet buster in our entire debate. What i did ask is if you can prove Goku would magically know for certain how much power it would take to destroy the Earth, which you never managed to prove, btw. Not only that, but you don't seem to be able to recognize a contradiction when you see one. Just because i don't deny that Vegeta is a planet buster doesn't mean i actually believe him to be. I've yet to give my opinion on that subject. However, you contradicted your own logic pretty profusely by writing off a certain statement as false simply because Vegeta was enraged, but call it reaching when someone points out that your very same reasoning can be used against you.
That he is which is it you do believe he is but or you don't?
This isn't a coherent sentence at all, tbh. If you're asking whether i think Vegeta is or isn't a planet buster, then my answer is simple - he may or may not be.
Well anyways, this proves it doesn't matter if Vegeta would have died along with the planet because as shown in many instances, his mind is clouded and doesn't think of what will happen after.
My argument has nothing at all to do with whether Vegeta would or would not have died, or even cared about dying, since he was in a fit of rage at the time... You sure you're responding to the right person?
And in threee instances he's used a planet busting attack, when he was at his most angry so you can draw an inference and can conclude he's a planet buster in the Saiyan Saga and Goku knows what he's taking about.
This is some pretty fallacious logic you're using here... It's already a major stretch in logic for you to assume Vegeta was a planet buster during the Saiyan Saga simply because he was angry (lol), but to come to the conclusion that Goku knows how much power is needed to destroy a planet just because Vegeta may have been telling the truth is... well can't use words like that on Comicvine. How do you know Goku wasn't just worried that Vegeta's claim might have been true, and didn't want to risk the Earth's destruction by calling his bluff?
When he's mad he's not thinking clearly. So destroying a planet even though he's on it is plausible especially with his history.
Vegeta said that Goku could save himself by dodging his attack, which wouldn't be true if the planet got destroyed.
I never said he wasnt one to do that I'm the one that brung it up the first place. This proves my point when has he? When has been known to lie in battle and bluff about his power in scenario similar to him threatening Goku with his Galick Gun?
This doesn't prove your point. In fact, you're basically destroying your own argument here:
"Me- This pretty much confirms that Vegeta thought Goku could save himself even if he dodges the attack, which wouldn't make any as Goku can't survive in the vacuum of space. Not saying Vegeta wasn't a planet buster, however."
"You- In my opinion, no it doesn't Vegeta was blinded by rage at the time and wasn't thinking clearly, he was gonna do the same exact thing to Frieza."
So, just because he was blinded by rage, you're assuming that he wasn't thinking clearly when said Goku can save himself (just for the record, he's never been known to lie about something like that before), yet call it reaching when someone uses the exact same line of reasoning against you. You aren't making any sense....
Yep and you said yourself what he said it wasn't a bluff "Your right, it wasn't a bluff. It was more like a bald-faced lie, and Vegeta knew it at the time." I need something credible to say he can't bust a planet during Saiyan Saga. Your logic is just because, he said lie in the chapter of his planet busting statement, nothing that comes out of his mouth from that point on is the truth.
Here you go with strawman fallacies... That isn't my logic at all. I'm simply explaining to you that your own logic is flawed and can very easily be turned against you, seeing as how you want to completely disregard one statement that doesn't support your position because of a certain reason, yet accept another statement as truth...even when the very same reason for why you were trying to discredit the initial statement still applies. Twisting other people's words around isn't going to help your argument. It only shows dishonesty, and is a common tactic used primarily by rank amateurs, to be perfectly honest.
Yea right lol you see how your own logic was just used against you that isn't a adqueate counter. That's merely just an idea not worth arguing against.
Since you completely ignored the point about Goku and King Kai not realizing Freeza's attack still had enough power to destroy the planet, which is probably because you were unable to think of an actual counter, i'll accept it as a concession lol
This is alll irrelevant it's just ego
It isn't irrelevant at all, actually. It clearly shows that Vegeta was a liar. Sugar coat it all you want, but facts are facts at the end of the day.
, after he got his lights punched out by Goku, he said refused to believe his PL passed his
I guess you completely ignored the translations i posted earlier which proves this nonsense wrong. I'll post them again for you:
Chapter: 230 (DBZ 36), P14.5
Vegeta: “It can’t be!! H-He's surpassed my battle power!!”
Vegeta: “This…this cannot be happening!!! I…I am a Super Elite!! I can not be beaten by some lower-level warrior like him!!! [ ] I am the best in the universe…!!!!” "
Straight from Vegeta himself. Seriously though, stop with the dishonesty. There would be much more dignity in it for you if you just owned up to your mistakes.
and you keep saying you're not disputing Vegeta is a planet buster, than what are you disputing?
Your flawed reasoning. See the beginning of our conversation.
And what is this point of this debate
You tell me.
Correct when he fighting the very person who more powerful than him
It still applies, as he did admit Goku surpassed his power level and was forced to transform into the Oozaru.
I never said he did for either
The posts say otherwise:
Me- We know for a fact that he exaggerated the truth a couple times in the very same scene. Also, we've never seen Vegeta destroy a planet in the manga, therefore we would have no way of knowing whether or not he was bluffing in any of those instances.
You- This is reaching I said give me an instance of him bluff akin to that scenario its obvious he wasn't bluffing if we have a least three occcasions of him trying to do it. How you think he was bluffing is puzzling, we literally have Piccolo saying he's gonna destroy the planet and one look at his face will tell you he's dead serious. On top of the fact that Vegeta literally busted out crying in despair when Frieza kicked his attack away, even Trunks said his attack would destroy the planet that's the main reason he had to redirect it.
....
Yes you did your own comments basically implied it "Can you prove it? Goku has no way of knowing if Vegeta could actually destroy the planet or not."
You reply to my comment implying Vegeta was lying about his destroying the planet
That doesn't mean that i came to a conclusion that Vegeta was lying... You asked me to provide an example of Vegeta blufing in a similar scenario and i showed you Vegeta telling a lie in that very same scenario.
Yes you did you basically said Vegeta was lying
I never said Vegeta was lying about blowing up the planet. Selective reading at its finest.
So what Vegeta obviously didn't care about the planet to launch an attack of that magnitude.
The point being, it doesn't necessarily prove that Piccolo knew for sure if the attack would have destroyed Namek.
If you aren't disputing it than why ask me about if Goku knows how much Ki goes into planet busting?
Because you're trying to say that he does, even though you have absolutely no evidence to back yourself up. Later on, we see that Goku and King Kai both fail to realize Freeza's attack destroyed Namek's core, and that the planet was still going to explode.
Yes I know and a side note I'm never making a big ass post on mobile ever, ever , and ever again.
Good, because your formatting has been pretty bad during this entire conversation. lol
@omega_kai: I'm not saying it can't destroy the planet, I'm saying it's not 100% it can. If it wasn't for the all the evidence in the Namek saga that implies Frieza is the only planet level character I would say Vegeta is a planet buster.
Also can I have the Daizenshuu quote and source?
There is no evidence in Namek Saga that implies that, I've seen what you use as evidence to support argument which in my opinion isn't enough, not even close to it.
Here the scan:
And what exactly have i said in your opinion that's highly unlikely? What you're doing here is establishing yourself as a pretty massive hypocrite by using a certain line of reasoning that you think supports your position, yet instantly writing off that very same reasoning when it's turned against you.
What your saying is really highly improbable and has never happened, please just show me one instance of character in DB lying about blowing up the planet can you a least do that? I'm a least showing the consistency of his actions and trying proving why of what your saying is unlikely. I'm not writing anything off, how about you provide an adequate counter of why he would be lying other than, this line of reasoning supports your argument.
I'm genuinely starting to wonder if you've actually been reading what I've wrote correctly or if you're just seeing what you want to see. Not once have i asked you to prove that Vegeta is a planet buster in our entire debate. What i did ask is if you can prove Goku would magically know for certain how much power it would take to destroy the Earth, which you never managed to prove, btw. Not only that, but you don't seem to be able to recognize a contradiction when you see one. Just because i don't deny that Vegeta is a planet buster doesn't mean i actually believe him to be. I've yet to give my opinion on that subject. However, you contradicted your own logic pretty profusely by writing off a certain statement as false simply because Vegeta was enraged, but call it reaching when someone points out that your very same reasoning can be used against you.
This goes both ways because some things you type are ambiguous "Just because i don't deny that Vegeta is a planet buster doesn't mean i actually believe him to be." so you think he isn't one just say it.
However, you contradicted your own logic pretty profusely by writing off a certain statement as false simply because Vegeta was enraged
When did I ever do this?
This isn't a coherent sentence at all, tbh. If you're asking whether i think Vegeta is or isn't a planet buster, then my answer is simple - he may or may not be.
There is no in-between you either believe he is or isn't, this is the ambiguous typing I'm talking about.
My argument has nothing at all to do with whether Vegeta would or would not have died, or even cared about dying, since he was in a fit of rage at the time... You sure you're responding to the right person?
Did I say it did? I've said repeatedly that Vegeta doesn't care about the repercussions of his actions when, he's in a fit of rage this supports my argument that doesn't care about his well being. He was gonna take himself, Goku, and the planet all together as long as he got to take Goku with him.
Evident by him saying so himself twice
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This is some pretty fallacious logic you're using here... It's already a major stretch in logic for you to assume Vegeta was a planet buster during the Saiyan Saga simply because he was angry (lol), but to come to the conclusion that Goku knows how much power is needed to destroy a planet just because Vegeta may have been telling the truth is... well can't use words like that on Comicvine. How do you know Goku wasn't just worried that Vegeta's claim might have been true, and didn't want to risk the Earth's destruction by calling his bluff?
Your logic is pretty much unsupported and has no footing and, I'm not saying Vegeta was a planet buster because he was angry and I've never said he was one for that. What I am saying is with his extensive history of what he does, when his anger reaches his limit there nothing to support that he would be lying, bluffing, or outright not do it, if he has the capability to.
Vegeta said that Goku could save himself by dodging his attack, which wouldn't be true if the planet got destroyed.
So you don't believe he's a planet buster do you read what you type?
This doesn't prove your point. In fact, you're basically destroying your own argument here:
"Me- This pretty much confirms that Vegeta thought Goku could save himself even if he dodges the attack, which wouldn't make any as Goku can't survive in the vacuum of space. Not saying Vegeta wasn't a planet buster, however."
"You- In my opinion, no it doesn't Vegeta was blinded by rage at the time and wasn't thinking clearly, he was gonna do the same exact thing to Frieza."
So, just because he was blinded by rage, you're assuming that he wasn't thinking clearly when said Goku can save himself (just for the record, he's never been known to lie about something like that before), yet call it reaching when someone uses the exact same line of reasoning against you. You aren't making any sense....
Your not making any sense, you yourself have the translations from Herms, saying if Goku dodged the attack Earth would have been blown to pieces "save yourself" is a general phrase if Goku would have dodged the attack, he would have saved himself from being killed by the Galick Gun, but he would have died by the planet explosion.
Since you completely ignored the point about Goku and King Kai not realizing Freeza's attack still had enough power to destroy the planet, which is probably because you were unable to think of an actual counter, i'll accept it as a concession lol
I countered it completely
He clearly didn't know Freeza destroyed Namek's core. Same with King kai, who's also proficient in the art of sensing ki. Goku should only know how much power is needed to destroy a planet after his fight with Freeza. We can't be sure that Piccolo knew he would have destroyed the moon with a single ki blast. He just wanted to get rid of it to stop Gohan."
What kind of counter is this, he destroyed the moon with a casual ki blast with this weighted clothing on if he wasn't sure, he would have done it at full power and used a full power attack. Even Frieza who didn't know how to use Ki at the time, estimated that all it would take for him to kill Goku would be half of his maximum power and he was right, in addition to never facing an opponent as strong as Goku.
It isn't irrelevant at all, actually. It clearly shows that Vegeta was a liar. Sugar coat it all you want, but facts are facts at the end of the day
Ok so since he lied about one thing, he lies about everything lol how about proving it? Doubt you can
I guess you completely ignored the translations i posted earlier which proves this nonsense wrong. I'll post them again for you:
Chapter: 230 (DBZ 36), P14.5
Vegeta: “It can’t be!! H-He's surpassed my battle power!!”
Vegeta: “This…this cannot be happening!!! I…I am a Super Elite!! I can not be beaten by some lower-level warrior like him!!! [ ] I am the best in the universe…!!!!” "
Straight from Vegeta himself. Seriously though, stop with the dishonesty. There would be much more dignity in it for you if you just owned up to your mistakes.
You actually managed to prove me wrong for once too bad this helps me though, that shows its all ego, because he was done by an low class saiyan, he still can't endure that knowledge and goes all on about how his noble blood spilled by this trash. That's definitely ego that's repeatedly shown all across the series, can you actually show one time of him saying a blatant lie other than this instance? And I'm not talking about no him saying he's gonna surpass Goku but never does, like a full blown lie, or believing he's a Super Saiyan for a limited of time even though he wasn't. For example if he told Krillin and Gohan to not worry about the Ginyu Force because he's stronger than them, that would be a blatant lie.
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Your flawed reasoning. See the beginning of our conversation.
How about you back up your argument with actual proof other than one translation that's been debunked.
You tell me.
No I was never talking to you in the first place, you replied to me first, plus your comments are ambiguous.
It still applies, as he did admit Goku surpassed his power level and was forced to transform into the Oozaru.
Alright
The posts say otherwise:
Me- We know for a fact that he exaggerated the truth a couple times in the very same scene. Also, we've never seen Vegeta destroy a planet in the manga, therefore we would have no way of knowing whether or not he was bluffing in any of those instances.
You- This is reaching I said give me an instance of him bluff akin to that scenario its obvious he wasn't bluffing if we have a least three occcasions of him trying to do it. How you think he was bluffing is puzzling, we literally have Piccolo saying he's gonna destroy the planet and one look at his face will tell you he's dead serious. On top of the fact that Vegeta literally busted out crying in despair when Frieza kicked his attack away, even Trunks said his attack would destroy the planet that's the main reason he had to redirect it.
Looks like I did say that posting on mobile its very cluttered and things are hard to follow, this still doesn't take away from anything, can you actually prove he was bluffing other than an egotistic lie, he said to himself? Nope ok than and I will ask you again do you have any other instances of him lying about his attack power? Or just anything akin to that scenario? Your whole argument is banking on one translation.
That doesn't mean that i came to a conclusion that Vegeta was lying... You asked me to provide an example of Vegeta blufing in a similar scenario and i showed you Vegeta telling a lie in that very same scenario.
Oh really why did you comment this Vegeta said that Goku could save himself by dodging his attack, which wouldn't be true if the planet got destroyed." the scenario you provided was terrible and it wasn't even similar in the least bit. Him lying to himself because he's a egomaniac is not similar, I already not why you can't give me an example because there isn't one.
I never said Vegeta was lying about blowing up the planet. Selective reading at its finest.
Your own comments say otherwise.
The point being, it doesn't necessarily prove that Piccolo knew for sure if the attack would have destroyed Namek.
Your just grasping for the clouds lmao he didn't know for sure I don't know how sure he could any be? Just look at everyone's faces right when fired the blast they knew how potent it was right from the gecko.
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Because you're trying to say that he does, even though you have absolutely no evidence to back yourself up. Later on, we see that Goku and King Kai both fail to realize Freeza's attack destroyed Namek's core, and that the planet was still going to explode.
What does destroying Namek Core have to do with anything, Frieza even before launching that attack showed how easy he could destroy the planet beforehand, with his maniacal laugh and speech about killing himself than rather being killed by Goku and saying how he can survive in space who wouldn't believe him? Plus there literally no difference between core busting or planet busting the planet will explode nonetheless. Also how is it exactly there fault for them not knowing Namek is gonna explode? There not the ones who destroyed the core and you act like Goku got an education in the first place, furthermore right when Frieza destroyed the core Planet Namek emitted a bright light giving the illusion the planet was going to explode. So King Kai and Goku being fooled looks ok in my books.
Scans for how easy he can decimate the planet and Frieza saying he's the one who destroyed Planet Vegeta:
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The light that emitted from Namek to give the illusion of an explosion:
please just show me one instance of character in DB lying about blowing up the planet can you a least do that?
The only characters who stated they could destroy the planet are Vegeta, Frieza, Cell, and Buu. Frieza, Cell, and Buu can obviously planet bust.
The closet thing I can give you to an example is Frieza saying he was going to blow up Namek but he ended up only destroying the core.
I'm a least showing the consistency of his actions and trying proving why of what your saying is unlikely. I'm not writing anything off, how about you provide an adequate counter of why he would be lying other than, this line of reasoning supports your argument.
He has plenty of reasons to lie. He wanted Goku to take the attack so he would win. He was angry and wanted to brag about his power. Angry people tend to try and hype themselves up.
Also Vegeta wanted immortality and din't want to die. Destroying the planet would kill himself and he didn't even use his Oozaru form yet.
There is no in-between you either believe he is or isn't, this is the ambiguous typing I'm talking about.
Why does someone have to pick a side?
Ok so since he lied about one thing, he lies about everything lol how about proving it? Doubt you can
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I would also like to bring up when Vegeta almost destroyed Namek attacking Frieza he was already stronger than Frieza's first form so it would make sense for him to be a planet buster, and he didn't care about killing himself at that point because the dragon balls were gone and Frieza was obviously going to kill him. He had absolutely nothing left up his sleeve.
And if you trust character statements, then this cockroach can dodge lightspeed attacks.
Pretty much Vegeta is only a planet buster if the story needs him to be.
What your saying is really highly improbable and has never happened,
And what did i say that's highly improbable. I know you seem to have trouble reading the posts correctly, so go ahead and quote my exact words and i'll be happy to address it.
please just show me one instance of character in DB lying about blowing up the planet can you a least do that?
This isn't an acceptable argument. First of all, what other characters lie or don't lie about has absolutely nothing to do with Vegeta's claim. Besides, you're trying to write off a certain statement from Vegeta, but you can't even show me a single instance where he has lied about something like this:
This pretty much confirms that Vegeta thought Goku could save himself even if he dodges the attack, which wouldn't make any as Goku can't survive in the vacuum of space. Not saying Vegeta wasn't a planet buster, however.
I know for certain that you won't be able to find an instance of Vegeta lying about something like that, so why write off just one statement for a specific reason, but completely ignore that reason when it pertains to a statement that you want to believe? That's a pretty massive double standard...
I'm a least showing the consistency of his actions and trying proving why of what your saying is unlikely. I'm not writing anything off, how about you provide an adequate counter of why he would be lying other than, this line of reasoning supports your argument.
No, you most definitely have not been doing that. I can quote your very own words again if you like:
"Me- This pretty much confirms that Vegeta thought Goku could save himself even if he dodges the attack, which wouldn't make any as Goku can't survive in the vacuum of space. Not saying Vegeta wasn't a planet buster, however."
"You- In my opinion, no it doesn't Vegeta was blinded by rage at the time and wasn't thinking clearly, he was gonna do the same exact thing to Frieza."
You blatantly deny Vegeta's own words because you believe he was blinded by rage, yet Vegeta has never been shown to make something like that up throughout the entire series. However, that doesn't stop you from accepting Vegeta's statement about destroying the Earth, even though he was blinded by rage at that time as well as not thinking clearly. Then you go on to ask for an instance of Vegeta or any DB character lying about their planet busting capabilities even when you can't show me one instance of Vegeta or any other DB character lying about something like this:
Vegeta thought Goku could save himself even if he dodges the attack, which wouldn't make any as Goku can't survive in the vacuum of space
That doesn't make any sense...
This goes both ways because some things you type are ambiguous "Just because i don't deny that Vegeta is a planet buster doesn't mean i actually believe him to be." so you think he isn't one just say it.
Nothing i typed was ambiguous. You're just reading the posts incorrectly, which was made apparent when you started accusing me of saying something i have not said.
When did I ever do this?
"Me- This pretty much confirms that Vegeta thought Goku could save himself even if he dodges the attack, which wouldn't make any as Goku can't survive in the vacuum of space. Not saying Vegeta wasn't a planet buster, however."
"You- In my opinion, no it doesn't Vegeta was blinded by rage at the time and wasn't thinking clearly, he was gonna do the same exact thing to Frieza."
There is no in-between you either believe he is or isn't, this is the ambiguous typing I'm talking about.
Lmao, what kind of nonsense is this? It's as if you don't know the meaning of the word possibly... Saiyan Saga Vegeta may be a planet buster, but nothing is certain.
Did I say it did?
...You brought it up:
"Well anyways, this proves it doesn't matter if Vegeta would have died along with the planet because as shown in many instances, his mind is clouded and doesn't think of what will happen after."
I've said repeatedly that Vegeta doesn't care about the repercussions of his actions when, he's in a fit of rage this supports my argument that doesn't care about his well being.
And as I've said before, that has absolutely nothing to do with my argument.
He was gonna take himself, Goku, and the planet all together as long as he got to take Goku with him.
That's if Vegeta really was a planet buster at the time.
Evident by him saying so himself twice
He also said that Goku could save himself by dodging his attack, which makes no sense if it was going to blow up the earth. Your own scans confirm this.
Your logic is pretty much unsupported and has no footing and,
Says the guy who has been using argumentative fallacies in damn near every post.
I'm not saying Vegeta was a planet buster because he was angry and I've never said he was one for that.
Your own words:
"And in three instances he's used a planet busting attack, when he was at his most angry so you can draw an inference and can conclude he's a planet buster in the Saiyan Saga and Goku knows what he's taking about."
What I am saying is with his extensive history of what he does, when his anger reaches his limit there nothing to support that he would be lying, bluffing, or outright not do it, if he has the capability to.
Except the only time he's actually threatened to blow up a planet while he was in a state of anger was during the Saiyan Saga, so moot point.
So you don't believe he's a planet buster do you read what you type?
I should be asking you the same question. What part of that sentence lead you to believe i was saying anything of the sort. My entire point on the matter is that we don't know for certain what would have happened, and we have a few instances where Vegeta was caught lying. It's quite simple. He either lied about being able to destroy the planet, or he lied about Goku being able to save himself.
Your not making any sense, you yourself have the translations from Herms, saying if Goku dodged the attack Earth would have been blown to pieces "save yourself" is a general phrase if Goku would have dodged the attack, he would have saved himself from being killed by the Galick Gun, but he would have died by the planet explosion.
Then he wouldn't have saved himself at all because the Galick Gun is what's supposedly going to destroy the earth. Either way he would have been wiped out.
I countered it completely
No, you didn't.
What kind of counter is this, he destroyed the moon with a casual ki blast with this weighted clothing on if he wasn't sure, he would have done it at full power and used a full power attack.
So what if he had his weighted clothing on? Piccolo's blast definitely wasn't casual. He was sweating bullets and could barely stand up straight after firing it:
Even Frieza who didn't know how to use Ki at the time,
I'll dismiss this as pure, unadulterated ignorance. Of course Freeza could use Ki at the time. He just wasn't able to sense power levels.
estimated that all it would take for him to kill Goku would be half of his maximum power and he was right, in addition to never facing an opponent as strong as Goku.
Because he already witnessed what Goku was capable of while they were fighting. He estimated how much Goku was holding back and came to a reasonable conclusion that 50% of his power would be more than enough for him to win the fight.
Ok so since he lied about one thing, he lies about everything lol how about proving it? Doubt you can
Nice comprehension skills you have there. I never said he lies about everything, but he certainly proved himself to be a liar all the same.
You actually managed to prove me wrong for once
I've proven you wrong more than once in this debate, but the same can't be said for you.
too bad this helps me though, that shows its all ego, because he was done by an low class saiyan, he still can't endure that knowledge and goes all on about how his noble blood spilled by trash.
It doesn't help you at all. In fact, it isn't even relevant. He was simply upset about being surpassed by Goku
That's definitely ego that's repeatedly shown all across the series, can you actually show one time of him saying a blatant lie other than instance? And I'm not talking about no him saying he's gonna surpass Goku but never does, like a full blown lie, or believing he's a Super Saiyan for a limited of time even though he wasn't. For example if he told Krillin and Gohan to not worry about the Ginyu Force because he's stronger than them, that would be a blatant lie.
Why do i need to show you Vegeta lying more than once. Not that i already haven't, lol. He actually lies twice in that very same sentence:
I can not be beaten by some lower-level warrior like him!!!
Obviously he can be beaten by a low-level warrior like Goku. That was clearly demonstrated once Goku beat that crap out of him and overpowered his Galick Gun.
[ ] I am the best in the universe…!!!!” "
Shouldn't even have to explain why this is BS.
How about you back up your argument with actual proof other than one translation that's been debunked.
That translation is proof, bud. You haven't managed to debunk anything. You can start backing up a few of your claims with proof any day now.
No I was never talking to you in the first place, you replied to me first, plus your comments are ambiguous.
Nothing ambiguous about my comments. You've clearly been putting words in my mouth this entire debate, so i would say that has more to do with your comprehensive reading skills than anything else.
Looks like I did say that posting on mobile its very cluttered and things are hard to follow, this still doesn't take away from anything, can you actually prove he was bluffing other than an egotistic lie, he said to himself? Nope ok than and I will ask you again do you have any other instances of him lying about his attack power? Or just anything akin to that scenario? Your whole argument is banking on one translation.
You're reaching for the stars here. I just proved that Vegeta is a liar. I never said he was lying about blowing up the planet, but it's possible since he seemed to believe Goku would have saved himself if he dodged the Galick Gun, even when the very same attack was supposed to blow the planet to bits. Either way, Goku would have been killed by it. Can you prove Vegeta actually was a planet buster in the Saiyan Saga? No? Well ok then, since your entire argument hinges on a single character statement, which makes no sense whatsoever seeing as how you've already disregarded another statement from him all because he was in angry at the time and may not have been thinking clearly.
Oh really why did you comment this Vegeta said that Goku could save himself by dodging his attack, which wouldn't be true if the planet got destroyed."
Gee idk, maybe because that's what Vegeta said? If the Galick Gun was going to blow the Earth to bits, how would it be possible for Goku to save himself?
the scenario you provided was terrible and it wasn't even similar in the least bit. Him lying to himself because he's a egomaniac is not similar, I already not why you can't give me an example because there isn't one.
No, you're clearly grasping at straws with this silly line of reasoning. The fact is, Vegeta was shown on panel lying more than once. You asking me to show other instances is quite pathetic when you yourself disregarded one of his statements, and still can't seem to show me a single example of him lying about anything similar to that situation. So, why do you get to write off whatever you choose to, but when i point out that your logic can be turned against you, you expect me to provide other examples of him lying? That's hypocritical and makes you seem biased.
Your own comments say otherwise.
Yet, you can't find a single example of me saying that. As i said before, selective reading at its finest.
Your just grasping for the clouds lmao he didn't know for sure I don't know how sure he could any be? Just look at everyone's faces right when fired the blast they knew how potent it was right from the gecko.
This is a pretty weak rebuttal. Just because Piccolo was nervous about the attack doesn't mean he knew for sure what was going to happen.
What does destroying Namek Core have to do with anything
Goku and King Kai didn't know that Freeza's attack was going to destroy the planet. They should be able to sense that, shouldn't they?
, Frieza even before launching that attack showed how easy he could destroy the planet beforehand, with his maniacal laugh and speech about killing himself than rather being killed by Goku and saying how he can survive in space who wouldn't believe him?
Good for Freeza, but i'm not seeing the relevance.
Plus there literally no difference between core busting or planet busting the planet will explode nonetheless.
Which only further destroys your own argument. Goku and King Kai should be able to realize that Freeza's attack was still going to destroy the planet if they can both know how much power is needed to do so.
Also how is it exactly there fault for them not knowing Namek is gonna explode?
...Because according to you, Goku knows how much energy is required to destroy a planet.
There not the ones who destroyed the core and you act like Goku got an education in the first place, furthermore right when Frieza destroyed the core Planet Namek emitted a bright light giving the illusion the planet was going to explode. So King Kai and Goku being fooled looks ok in my books.
If Goku didn't get an education, how could he possibly know how much energy is needed to destroy Namek in the first place?
Scans for how easy he can decimate the planet and Frieza saying he's the one who destroyed Planet Vegeta:
How is this relevant?
The light that emitted from Namek to give the illusion of an explosion:
So, what you're saying is, Goku thought the planet was going to blow up. Too bad he wouldn't have any reason to worry if what you were saying about him was true. Freeza deliberately held back his power so the planet wouldn't be destroyed in an instant. Why wasn't Goku able to sense that if he knows how much energy it takes to destroy a planet?
It's really funny how far people can go to say they can't to this or can do that. Dudes DBZ is simple they can destroy planets and moons simple. toriyama isn't putting nearly as much thought when he created this ad you people are.
@freshflintstone: Multiple characters imply Frieza is the only planet level character on Namek. I agree Toriyama probably intended Vegeta to be a planet buster when he was writing it, but Toriyama tends to forget and change things. Old Kai also said the guy who sealed him in the z sword was weaker than Buu, but in an interview Toriyama said Beerus was the one who sealed him in the sword and this was later confirmed in Super.
@freshflintstone: Multiple characters imply Frieza is the only planet level character on Namek. I agree Toriyama probably intended Vegeta to be a planet buster when he was writing it, but Toriyama tends to forget and change things. Old Kai also said the guy who sealed him in the z sword was weaker than Buu, but in an interview Toriyama said Beerus was the one who sealed him in the sword and this was later confirmed in Super.
Frieza is only planet level, but he is known for destroying planets more often than others so i can see why people would elude to that. I don't know why people would be saying different. Toriyama also retconned Buu to being a primordial being
Frieza is only planet level, but he is known for destroying planets more often than others so i can see why people would elude to that. I don't know why people would be saying different.
Goku made fun of Frieza for being able to destroy entire planets, but not a single man. That insult doesn't make much sense if all the Ginyu members Goku just beat up could also destroy entire planets. Krillin even freaks out at Nappa's planet warping attack.
I would say saiyan saga Vegeta's Galic Gun and the Ginyu force are all kind of planet level, but not like Frieza. I don't think they can just wipe out planets. They might be able to "destroy" the planet, but large parts of the planet may still be there. Like maybe they could do this.
You could call this planet level and have the hype of Frieza being able to destroy entire planets make sense.
It's really funny how far people can go to say they can't to this or can do that. Dudes DBZ is simple they can destroy planets and moons simple. toriyama isn't putting nearly as much thought when he created this ad you people are.
@valarmelkor: @alextheboss: based on that fact that almost everyone in dbz that has been killed by a ki beam was disintegrated into nothing example of this was cell, jeice, nappa, buu
@thedarkpaladin: check the fight Krillin had with Jacky Chunn, when they did all that stuff in like a second or less, just try to imagine the speed difference they would have by Cell saga.
Also, check the manga again, Raditz had already dodged Goku's Kamehane Ha, he was already moving away before Goku changed the angle, and just when Goku did that Raditz reacted and blocked the attack, he didn't try to outruned.
It's really funny how far people can go to say they can't to this or can do that. Dudes DBZ is simple they can destroy planets and moons simple. toriyama isn't putting nearly as much thought when he created this ad you people are.
@valarmelkor: @alextheboss: based on that fact that almost everyone in dbz that has been killed by a ki beam was disintegrated into nothing example of this was cell, jeice, nappa, buu
You can't even see cells with your eye, there is no way you can tell by looking that even the atoms were destroyed. I'm not saying they weren't, but you can't know for sure unless it is stated.
Why are we debating Vegeta's planet busting statement when the character involved here has his own on panel feat of planet busting?Smh
I don't really remember but probably because people are trying to power scale off of Vegeta or saying even Vegeta could beat the team. Frieza would win if he is serious but since the OP is making Frieza playing around and the team is bloodlusted with perfect teamwork they should win.
Very interesting battle. Frieza could get bfr potentially to another dimension by Kaguya, but they can't beat him into submission. He's too strong for them. In his weakest form he destroyed planetes
@alextheboss: You can't even see cells with your eye, there is no way you can tell by looking that even the atoms were destroyed. I'm not saying they weren't, but you can't know for sure unless it is stated.
Fair enough... But when naruto hit kazuka (I think I spelled it wrong) it was stated that rasenshuriken attacks on a atomic lvl and destroyed every cell in his body but there was still a body left behind. I know I can't see cells but I know I can see a whole body. Granted we r talking about tsb here but just wanted to show that just cuz it's stated doesn't always make it true
@alextheboss: Frieza would win if he is serious but since the OP is making Frieza playing around and the team is bloodlusted with perfect teamwork they should win.
I agree assuming their hax works they can def pull off a couple wins here
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