Flash, Zoom vs Silver Surfer,Mad Jim Jaspers.

Team 1 - Zoom n Flash (wally)

vs

Team 2 - Silver Surfer n Mad Jim Jaspers

Fight takes place in the centre of Times Square, New York - Mid day - usual traffic and people about.Teams start 50 yards from each other in view. The teammates start on the ground and will work together.

Round 1 - Morals on for both teams, win only by KO, no prep.

Round 2 - Morals off for both teams, win by any means, 5 seconds prep. EDIT - the 5 seconds of Prep can only be used within New York itself and a ceiling of height for flyers is limited to 150 feet.

Distance has no effect on Zoom and Flash.

Round 1: If they fight each other face-to-face, Zoom and Flash win.

By any mean for round 2 with no moral? Jim Jaspers could just blink them out of existence during that 5 seconds or Silver Surfer could just destroy Earth.

This fight depends on who gets the first strike.

Surfer can solo both rounds unless it is his powered down version in that case SS and Jaspers take both rounds

@202122 said:

Surfer can solo both rounds unless it is his powered down version in that case SS and Jaspers take both rounds

With Moral on, I doubt Surfer can tag Zoom. Flash could also turn him into a stature.

@202122 said:

Surfer can solo both rounds unless it is his powered down version in that case SS and Jaspers take both rounds

Flash or Zoom would solo Surfer

Spite thread because of MJJ... Should we flag spite threads? I somehow never wanted to do that...

1. MJJ solos

2. SS Solos

@High Revolutionary said:

1. MJJ solos

2. SS Solos

1. MJJ solos

2. SS Solos

FLASH SOLOS

@High Revolutionary said:

1. MJJ solos

2. SS Solos

@Bo88gdan said:

@High Revolutionary said:

1. MJJ solos

2. SS Solos

@Petey_is_Spidey said:

@High Revolutionary said:

1. MJJ solos

2. SS Solos

@High Revolutionary said:

1. MJJ solos

2. SS Solos

curious, how does he do anything if he can get KTFO in a picosecond?

@nickthedevil: Curious, how do you put someone down who can just restore their cells AND is just as fast as you.

I.A.T.

@Petey_is_Spidey said:

@nickthedevil: Curious, how do you put someone down who can just restore their cells AND is just as fast as you.

I.A.T.

how is he just as fast? what's his reaction time? proof? also, i doubt MJJ's powers would work inside the Speed force.

@nickthedevil said:

@Petey_is_Spidey said:

@nickthedevil: Curious, how do you put someone down who can just restore their cells AND is just as fast as you.

I.A.T.

how is he just as fast? what's his reaction time? proof? also, i doubt MJJ's powers would work inside the Speed force.

I'm talking about Silver Surfer, not MJJ.

I.A.T.

@nickthedevil said:

@Petey_is_Spidey said:

@nickthedevil: Curious, how do you put someone down who can just restore their cells AND is just as fast as you.

I.A.T.

how is he just as fast? what's his reaction time? proof? also, i doubt MJJ's powers would work inside the Speed force.

Why wouldn't they? They've only been shown to not work in places where there is no reality at all.

@Dex_Starr said:

@202122 said:

Surfer can solo both rounds unless it is his powered down version in that case SS and Jaspers take both rounds

Flash or Zoom would solo Surfer

Morals on and starting on the ground with no prep or take off time, in this set up, sure. Morals off and 5 seconds for the Surfer to use his prep to fly out of range and destroy the planet...no -- not that he would need to having a reality warper on his side=)

Would you call the speedforce a reality? It seems kinda like Limbo... Johnny quick and Max Mercury were there for years and they didn't age, get hungry, etc...its a place completely out of time and space apparently.

@Petey_is_Spidey said:

@nickthedevil said:

@Petey_is_Spidey said:

@nickthedevil: Curious, how do you put someone down who can just restore their cells AND is just as fast as you.

I.A.T.

how is he just as fast? what's his reaction time? proof? also, i doubt MJJ's powers would work inside the Speed force.

I'm talking about Silver Surfer, not MJJ.

I.A.T.

Silver Surfer is no where near as fast as Flash or Zoom are.

@Wyldsong said:

@Dex_Starr said:

@202122 said:

Surfer can solo both rounds unless it is his powered down version in that case SS and Jaspers take both rounds

Flash or Zoom would solo Surfer

Morals on and starting on the ground with no prep or take off time, in this set up, sure. Morals off and 5 seconds for the Surfer to use his prep to fly out of range and destroy the planet...no -- not that he would need to having a reality warper on his side=)

There's moral's on for Surfer also, he's not going to destroy a planet full of people.

@Dex_Starr: Why not?

@Dex_Starr:

@Dex_Starr said:

@Wyldsong said:

@Dex_Starr said:

@202122 said:

Surfer can solo both rounds unless it is his powered down version in that case SS and Jaspers take both rounds

Flash or Zoom would solo Surfer

Morals on and starting on the ground with no prep or take off time, in this set up, sure. Morals off and 5 seconds for the Surfer to use his prep to fly out of range and destroy the planet...no -- not that he would need to having a reality warper on his side=)

There's moral's on for Surfer also, he's not going to destroy a planet full of people.

That's why I agreed with you on the morals on portion, round 1. He is on the ground, no prep, and well within range.

Round 2 is morals off with 5 seconds of prep, win by any means. That's where the planet goes the way of the dodo, if MJJ just doesn't do some reality altering first.

Surfer solos? Get real.
BB

Edited the OP slightly for round two - just for more balance i hope :D

@Jedi Wolverine said:

Edited the OP slightly for round two - just for more balance i hope :D

With a reality warper in the mix and the words prep, I am not sure there is ever any real balance=)

@troller said:

@Dex_Starr: Why not?

Why what?

@Dex_Starr: EXACTLY!!!!

@Wyldsong said:

@Dex_Starr said:

@Wyldsong said:

@Dex_Starr said:

@202122 said:

Surfer can solo both rounds unless it is his powered down version in that case SS and Jaspers take both rounds

Flash or Zoom would solo Surfer

Morals on and starting on the ground with no prep or take off time, in this set up, sure. Morals off and 5 seconds for the Surfer to use his prep to fly out of range and destroy the planet...no -- not that he would need to having a reality warper on his side=)

There's moral's on for Surfer also, he's not going to destroy a planet full of people.

That's why I agreed with you on the morals on portion, round 1. He is on the ground, no prep, and well within range.

Round 2 is morals off with 5 seconds of prep, win by any means. That's where the planet goes the way of the dodo, if MJJ just doesn't do some reality altering first.

With morals off either Zoom or Flash would beat Surfer to death before he can blink.

Not that it matters since MJJ solo's but Surfer can't take either of these 2 though

@Dex_Starr said:

With morals off either Zoom or Flash would beat Surfer to death before he can blink.

Not that it matters since MJJ solo's but Surfer can't take either of these 2 though

With 5 seconds prep and a man that could teleport or fly out of range, and the lack of restriction for where Surfer could go when this initially started? Not likely.

So tell me, with 5 seconds prep and the Surfer in space with that time, how do they beat him to death (and this is considering the original setup, not the new)?

@Wyldsong: I agree

@Wyldsong said:

@Dex_Starr said:

With morals off either Zoom or Flash would beat Surfer to death before he can blink.

Not that it matters since MJJ solo's but Surfer can't take either of these 2 though

With 5 seconds prep and a man that could teleport or fly out of range, and the lack of restriction for where Surfer could go when this initially started? Not likely.

So tell me, with 5 seconds prep and the Surfer in space with that time, how do they beat him to death (and this is considering the original setup, not the new)?

Surfer cosmic awareness wouldn't even work that fast. When he fought Hulk for the first time it took him more than 5 seconds to realize he was powered off of Gamma Radiation, he wouldn't be able to decipher Zoom and Flashes power in that time

Even if that was the case in this fight he has to stay in NY and he can't fly more than 150 feet in the air

@Dex_Starr: Correct

Uhm... I posted in the Round 2 champIons tournament thread Wally West feats... Please refer to those. In it i have Flash running through space... And Flash has survived explosions by turning intangible. Put the two feats together and Silver surfer blowing up the planet is a worthless move. Norin radd still loses.

@Dex_Starr said:

@Wyldsong said:

@Dex_Starr said:

With morals off either Zoom or Flash would beat Surfer to death before he can blink.

Not that it matters since MJJ solo's but Surfer can't take either of these 2 though

With 5 seconds prep and a man that could teleport or fly out of range, and the lack of restriction for where Surfer could go when this initially started? Not likely.

So tell me, with 5 seconds prep and the Surfer in space with that time, how do they beat him to death (and this is considering the original setup, not the new)?

Surfer cosmic awareness wouldn't even work that fast. When he fought Hulk for the first time it took him more than 5 seconds to realize he was powered off of Gamma Radiation, he wouldn't be able to decipher Zoom and Flashes power in that time

Even if that was the case in this fight he has to stay in NY and he can't fly more than 150 feet in the air

Why does cosmic awareness need to play into this? And I stated, we aren't talking about the 150 feet rule, I am asking you on the original setup where this discussion started -- which had no rule on that. With a no morals Surfer, looking to win by any means, and 5 seconds to do as I have stated, how do they beat him death?

Destroying a planet is a win by any means, and his cosmic awareness has worked much faster than that before, so let's not judge that ability on one showing.

I am not arguing that Flash and Zoom don't have the power to take Surfer out, but I also maintain that with the right setup and some prep, Surfer does have it well within his power to do the same. To morals off Surfer, what is the destruction of a planet?

Flash would still KO surfer. Flash's intangibility + Running through space = survivng the planet busting attack. Flash would still win.

@nickthedevil said:

Uhm... I posted in the Round 2 champIons tournament thread Wally West feats... Please refer to those. In it i have Flash running through space... And Flash has survived explosions by turning intangible. Put the two feats together and Silver surfer blowing up the planet is a worthless move. Norin radd still loses.

That is a better argument for him than what I was getting from Dex -- no offense Dex. Thanks for the intel=)

@Wyldsong: Because without it Surfer wouldn't know to fly up into the air and blow up the planet.

Why aren't we talking about the 150 feet rule? Do you want Surfer to win that badly that your going to give him unfair advantage? There's a 150 foot rule here why means he's in range of getting beaten to death, in round 2 there's no prep. So either way you look at it Surfer can't beat either of these 2 in either round.

Uh why don't show me an instance where his cosmic awareness worked faster than 5 seconds...seriously show this.

No, you're only maintaining a fight where Surfer can fly into the air and nuke the planet with 5 seconds of prep, and he couldn't even in that scenario either.

There are setups where Surfer can beat them but they aren't in this thread and are therefore irrelevant ....

@Dex_Starr said:

@Wyldsong: Because without it Surfer wouldn't know to fly up into the air and blow up the planet.

Why aren't we talking about the 150 feet rule? Do you want Surfer to win that badly that your going to give him unfair advantage? There's a 150 foot rule here why means he's in range of getting beaten to death, in round 2 there's no prep. So either way you look at it Surfer can't beat either of these 2 in either round.

Uh why don't show me an instance where his cosmic awareness worked faster than 5 seconds...seriously show this.

No, you're only maintaining a fight where Surfer can fly into the air and nuke the planet with 5 seconds of prep, and he couldn't even in that scenario either.

Nick already gave an answer to counter my scenario -- which I find plausible and am fine with, and we aren't talking about that rule, because our discussion started before it, and my question to you states that specifically. And morals off, win by any means, why wouldn't he? It's not out of the question.

Sorry if that sounds snippy, not trying to be offensive.

"Because without it Surfer wouldn't know to fly up into the air and blow up the planet."

If he is trying to win by any means and has no morals, why would he need cosmic awareness to realize, "Hey, instead of a long drawn out battle and since I have no morals, it is well within my power to destroy the planet, why shouldn't I?" In scenario 2, did the OP originally state no morals? Yes. Did it state win by any means? Yes. Is blowing up a planet a no morals win by any means scenario? Yes. Did it originally not have a limit on how high he could fly? No, no limit originally. Did I not pose my queries in that original scenario? Why yes, I did pose my queries in that no height limit scenario. So, why is this even a discussion? Regardless, this specific scenario was already successfully countered by someone else, and it was handled nicely, efficiently, and I already acquiesced.

"No, you're only maintaining a fight where Surfer can fly into the air and nuke the planet with 5 seconds of prep, and he couldn't even in that scenario either."

And I maintained that, still discussing the scenario in which it was plausible -- which I clearly stated. You can bring up the 150 foot ceiling all you want, but we started this discussion before that -- hence my continuation on that track, and even clearly bringing it up. You wanted to end the argument, all you had to do was quite simply bring up the feats nick did, instead of trying to talk me out of the scenario I had presented, which is a plausible tactic for a no morals, win by any means, prep included scenario.

Regardless, nick successfully debunked it, and it is now a moot point. So we can move on.

"There are setups where Surfer can beat them but they aren't in this thread and are therefore irrelevant ...."

And thanks for at least admitting this, as I have already admitted where he can lose to these two.

"Uh why don't show me an instance where his cosmic awareness worked faster than 5 seconds...seriously show this."

Later, I'll PM you when I have more time to dig through scans.

Now it is time to end the derailment, and move along, or PM me if you still feel that strongly about it.

@nickthedevil said:

Flash would still KO surfer. Flash's intangibility + Running through space = survivng the planet busting attack. Flash would still win.

I agree mate=)

You just got in two posts on the subject before I finished my first=P

Flash and Zoom win both rounds easily without prep.

Wait a min., which flash and which zoom. There are two Flashes(Barry Allen, Wally West) and two Zooms (Eobard Thawne, Hunter Zolomon)

@Americanson: YEP

@czarny_samael666 said:

Spite thread because of MJJ... Should we flag spite threads? I somehow never wanted to do that...

@jeanroygrant: No we shouldn't, because it is cruel

Can't surfer manipulate matter? Therefore SS solos.

@stonerthps: Nope

@stonerthps said:

Can't surfer manipulate matter? Therefore SS solos.

He can, but the problem in round 1 being that Zoom and Flash are just too fast and the starting distance favors them. Round 2, it is really a moot point, because MJJ can just alter reality in the time given.

@Wyldsong said:

@stonerthps said:

Can't surfer manipulate matter? Therefore SS solos.

He can, but the problem in round 1 being that Zoom and Flash are just too fast and the starting distance favors them. Round 2, it is really a moot point, because MJJ can just alter reality in the time given.

Well speed and distance isn't really a factor with SS cause he can see them no matter their speed or distance it's kinda what he does. Read up on him.

@stonerthps said:

@Wyldsong said:

@stonerthps said:

Can't surfer manipulate matter? Therefore SS solos.

He can, but the problem in round 1 being that Zoom and Flash are just too fast and the starting distance favors them. Round 2, it is really a moot point, because MJJ can just alter reality in the time given.

Well speed and distance isn't really a factor with SS cause he can see them no matter their speed or distance it's kinda what he does. Read up on him.

I have read up on him. In fact, I have already stated in other threads that I am far more biased towards him than either Zoom or Flash. Speed is a factor if they can move before he reacts. After several debates and discussions on these boards, I just don't believe in a scenario set up like round 1, that Surfer is fast enough to react. He is fast, but if you want to prove he can take it, you need to prove he can react faster than both Zoom or Flash, both of which speed (more time manipulation with Zoom I guess) is kind of what they do. Which if you can, get ready for an uphill battle, but if you can, then great. I personally don't mind it, because again, I prefer SS.

@Wyldsong said:

@stonerthps said:

@Wyldsong said:

@stonerthps said:

Can't surfer manipulate matter? Therefore SS solos.

He can, but the problem in round 1 being that Zoom and Flash are just too fast and the starting distance favors them. Round 2, it is really a moot point, because MJJ can just alter reality in the time given.

Well speed and distance isn't really a factor with SS cause he can see them no matter their speed or distance it's kinda what he does. Read up on him.

I have read up on him. In fact, I have already stated in others threads that I am far more biased towards him than either Zoom or Flash. Speed is a factor if they can move before he reacts. After several debates and discussions on these boards, I just don't believe in a scenario set up like round 1, that Surfer is fast enough to react. He is fast, but if you want to prove he can take it, you need to prove he can react faster than both Zoom or Flash, both of which speed (more time manipulation with Zoom I guess) is kind of what they do. Which if you can, get ready for an uphill battle, but if you can, then great. I personally don't mind it, because again, I prefer SS.

@Wyldsong said:

@stonerthps said:

@Wyldsong said:

@stonerthps said:

Can't surfer manipulate matter? Therefore SS solos.

He can, but the problem in round 1 being that Zoom and Flash are just too fast and the starting distance favors them. Round 2, it is really a moot point, because MJJ can just alter reality in the time given.

Well speed and distance isn't really a factor with SS cause he can see them no matter their speed or distance it's kinda what he does. Read up on him.

I have read up on him. In fact, I have already stated in other threads that I am far more biased towards him than either Zoom or Flash. Speed is a factor if they can move before he reacts. After several debates and discussions on these boards, I just don't believe in a scenario set up like round 1, that Surfer is fast enough to react. He is fast, but if you want to prove he can take it, you need to prove he can react faster than both Zoom or Flash, both of which speed (more time manipulation with Zoom I guess) is kind of what they do. Which if you can, get ready for an uphill battle, but if you can, then great. I personally don't mind it, because again, I prefer SS.

Ok. But, surfer can see through time. Meaning no matter what moves they make he'll know they're coming.