Flash vs Team

How exactly was Savitar removing speed from speedsters?

My argument is not predicated on SS being able to control speed better than Flash; he doesn't have to. All he has to do is directly manipulate the speed force energy itself and nullify it. Manipulating and controlling vast amounts of energy--any kind of energy--is literally what the Power Cosmic is designed to allow the user to do.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that SS can't break the connection between Wally and the speed force. Are you telling me that a high-tier energy manipulator could not find ways to nullify speed force energy? Or that he couldn't manipulate speed force energy in any way? This claim is dubious to me considering Norrin's feats with respect to energy manipulation and the fact that Wally seems to have no inherent immunity to energy manipulation in general. And this seems all the more clear to me considering that Captain Cold has already done this to Barry Allen in the New 52. Generally, when characters don't have feats of durability for a specific type of attack we assume they don't have it; but here it seems like even though Wally has no feats of durability against energy manipulation, people are still arguing otherwise. Again, I'm really not understanding this double standard.

@uberhikari: What do you mean how does Savitar do it? He used the Speed Force to gain speed powers. With superior control over said speed powers he robbed people of their speed and transferred it to his minions. It's like asking how does Surfer use the Power Cosmic to go into the astral plane -- he just kind of does, there's no underlying scientific mechanics behind it.

If Surfer can't control Speed better than the Flash, how do you expect him to use his energy manipulation to cut him off from his powers, which is specifically just speed incarnate? He would specifically have to cut Flash off from the Speed Force by overriding his connection to it, which necessarily implies he's better at manipulating Speed/Speed Force than Flash.

Also, what do you mean by what Captain Cold did to new 52 Barry? Did you read the comics or do I have to point out that Barry was literally horrifically limited from using his full power and that, later in the series, he completely chumped Cold despite Cold's aura when he wasn't being forced to hold back?

Wally's got a singular feat against someone trying to cut him off from the Speed Force (Savitar). It's not a very explored concept, I suppose, but Savitar successfully cut off four other people from the Speed Force with little to no issue.

First, calm down. I wasn't trying to be obtuse; I never read the Savitar storyline so I was asking you specifically what happened. It's no different than someone asking for context surrounding scans.

Second, again, my argument isn't that Surfer can control speed better than Flash. This is literally what I just wrote:

My argument is not predicated on SS being able to control speed better than Flash; he doesn't have to. All he has to do is directly manipulate the speed force energy itself and nullify it. Manipulating and controlling vast amounts of energy--any kind of energy--is literally what the Power Cosmic is designed to allow the user to do.

The major disadvantage that Flash has is that he's a high-tier kinetic energy manipulator and ONLY a high-tier kinetic energy manipulator. The most basic ability of the Power Cosmic is the ability to control, manipulate, drain, absorb and transform almost any kind of energy on a vast scale. What's stopping Norrin from turning all the speed force energy that Wally attempts to use into light? Or thermal energy? Or radiation?

Third, again, let's assume for the sake of argument that Norrin can NOT cut Wally off from the speed force, how does that stop Norrin from doing any of the other things I just mentioned? Again, there seems to be a real double standard here. Generally when characters do not possess feats showing specific kinds of durability we assume they don't have said durability. When characters don't show TP resistance or resistance to matter transmutation, for example, we assume they don't have said resistance. Why should this case be any different?

Fourth, it doesn't matter if Barry eventually beat Captain Cold. Why? Because SS is infinitely stronger than Captain Cold. And if Captain Cold can find and exploit weaknesses by creating a field that can nullify the Flash's power, imagine what Norrin can do with 1 minute of prep and Cosmic Awareness. Now, add to this the fact that Norrin is bloodlusted and Wally is going to have a hell of a time winning this fight.

There's a certain irony in you telling me to calm down that I'm just gonna have to ignore.

Nothing's truly stopping Surfer from being able to kill Flash with his abilities besides Flash killing him first. I think it's safe to say there's no way Flash will survive an attack from a bloodlusted Surfer if Surfer hits him. Flash's out is that he's significantly faster and can clearly hurt people at or above the caliber of Surfer when going all out.

I'm unsure as to how Cosmic Awareness is an out, either. For one, Surfer's cosmic awareness is vague and 90% of the time unused or useless to a situation at hand. Secondly, Wally's powers don't originate or compare to anything that exists in Surfer's universe so I'm unsure as to how cosmic awareness would fill him in on the info.

A better idea would be that he could get an idea of how Flash's powers work and some of the weaknesses from the JL members plotting against him during the 1 minute prep, but does that mean Wally gets to use his prep to think around these situations? 5 minutes to Wally is literally billions upon trillions of years to a normal person if he so chooses it to be(given his feat vs Solaris). Assuming he knows his teammates know his weakness and he's given basic info on Surfer.

It's not like Wally would have to walk into a pre-emptively set up cold field (if Surfer were exploiting the Absolute Zero weakness) if he knew it was there via prepping. He can speed steal from a distance or pick up GL's ring from his blitzed, dead body to use it (Wally has actually used Hal's powers before when Hal granted him half of his ring's abilities during a Brave and The Bold flashback story thing) to protect himself from the cold field and then blitz Surfer or whatever. I dunno, the entire scenario is so chalk full of variables it's hard to determine, which is why I originally was going to stay out of the thread. I've debated Wally vs Surfer far more than I've ever wanted to on this forum.

@dredeuced: I feel like this debate will circle around for all eternity.

@dredeuced:

There's a certain irony in you telling me to calm down that I'm just gonna have to ignore.

Alright, you definitely got me on this one. I was thinking the same thing right after I wrote that, lol.

Nothing's truly stopping Surfer from being able to kill Flash with his abilities besides Flash killing him first. I think it's safe to say there's no way Flash will survive an attack from a bloodlusted Surfer if Surfer hits him. Flash's out is that he's significantly faster and can clearly hurt people at or above the caliber of Surfer when going all out.

I think Flash can certainly hurt a bloodlusted SS, but I'm just curious: How would Flash even kill Surfer in this fight? I don't think he can kill Norrin with IMP's or de-atomization. And I don't think dropping him off at the heat death of the universe would work because SS can time travel and travel via hyperspace.

I'm unsure as to how Cosmic Awareness is an out, either. For one, Surfer's cosmic awareness is vague and 90% of the time unused or useless to a situation at hand. Secondly, Wally's powers don't originate or compare to anything that exists in Surfer's universe so I'm unsure as to how cosmic awareness would fill him in on the info.

On second thought, I'm not even sure Cosmic Awareness matters. And it certainly doesn't matter if Wally's powers are foreign to SS. Why? Because the Power Cosmic intuitively gives Norrin the ability to transform nearly any type of energy into any other type of energy. That's just what the Power Cosmic allows a user to do. A perfect example of this is when SS fought Tenebrous and Aegis at the end of Annihilation, SS was able to channel the energy of the Big Crunch with no problems to kill both of them. The advantage of the Power Cosmic is it's versatility.

Moreover, while the source of Flash's abilities is the speed force, that's only the source of his abilities. But what Flash is really manipulating is kinetic energy, and kinetic energy isn't foreign to SS or particularly unique to any universe. Turning kinetic energy into any other kind of energy Norrin desires should be a piece of cake. And this is why I'm dubious about whether or not something like speed steal would work on Norrin. Draining SS of all kinetic energy is useless if he can transform any energy into any other energy or transform matter into energy; he could literally regain his kinetic energy by creating it.

A better idea would be that he could get an idea of how Flash's powers work and some of the weaknesses from the JL members plotting against him during the 1 minute prep, but does that mean Wally gets to use his prep to think around these situations? 5 minutes to Wally is literally billions upon trillions of years to a normal person if he so chooses it to be(given his feat vs Solaris). Assuming he knows his teammates know his weakness and he's given basic info on Surfer.

This doesn't matter because OP stipulates that, "All know everything about each other." The characters in this fight already know everything about each other. Moreover, Wally can think until he's blue in the face but his main disadvantage is something that he can not overcome: which is Norrin's versatility with the Power Cosmic. Flash simply has no defense against energy manipulation.

Overall, though, I think Flash would have a much harder time killing SS than the other way around because Flash's normal ways of killing Norrin probably would not work, while all SS needs is 1 nanosecond and Flash is dead. The question is whether you think SS will ever get that nanosecond.

You can blame that on Dredeuced. The dude just can't accept his character losing sometimes.

Supes dips, and for 15 minutes, comes back, and kills them all.

Wally has no chance. Surfer is just icing on the cake. Wally can't reach Superman if he's already in the sun before he can reach escape velocity. Enough of the wanking. Wally dies a horrible death here.

The fact of the matter is the team gets a minute of prep, in that minute of prep Norrin can use the power cosmic to shield himself from any possible blitzing long enough to use his mastery of matter/energy manipulation to make the Flash as harmless as a kitten seeing as his source of power is energy based, he doesn't even have to cut him off from it he can simply manipulate it, change its make up and many other different variables pertaining to it making it and him a non threat. SS has completely drained the Hulks powers, absorbed Fireloads, overloaded Dr Spectrums, has drained a duplicate of himself who was equal in power within seconds and even given the power cosmic to others on occasion. Norrin is a top tier energy manipulator, anybody claiming for some unknown reason this wouldn't work on Wally is absurd. The prep time and complete knowledge of one another stated by the OP negates any possible blitzing, ultimately giving SS and team the win.

I think people assume that Surfer and Supes are just going to stand on Flash's level (i.e THE GROUND), and let him just run through them, or phase about their brains, or whatever think the Wally fanboys like to claim. In those prep minutes, Supes could literally can just fly to the sun, and push the moon into the Eartg. Wally dies horribly here, and if you think he has a chance, you're deluding yourself because of your rabid fanboyism.

@hardcorefakes said:

@monsterstomp said:

@xiix said:

@juiceboks said:

Wally tears through everyone. Seriously..if he's bloodlusted he can literally take all the time he needs and there's nothing anyone on the team can do about it. Not even Norrin.

Supes dips, and for 15 minutes, comes back, and kills them all.

Wally has no chance. Surfer is just icing on the cake. Wally can't reach Superman if he's already in the sun before he can reach escape velocity. Enough of the wanking. Wally dies a horrible death here.

Ya know..it's one thing to immediately resort to throwing around labels to people who disagree with you. But to do it without even understanding the situation? C'mon man step your reading game up.

"Everyone starts on the ground, 1 mile distance."

It's not an assumption..

"Everyone starts on the ground, 1 mile distance."

Actually, I blame the people debating for SS. SS doesn't have an answer for the speed force. Wally has 5 minutes of preparation. I remember where Hal said Wally could clean the city in 5 seconds and Wally saying it feels like hours. 5 minutes would be days to Wally, and considering Wally knows SS just as well as SS knows Wally, SS would probably be the first he'd take out if he considers the threat level.

The starting distance isn't that far considering that Wally covered 17.5 million miles in 0.0001 microsecond, which is 0.00000000001 seconds (I think). SS would be taken out before he even knows the fight began.

Before his electrical impulses leave his brain, Wally just blitzed him!

I don't think you know how fast Wally is!

Irrelevant. You realize how many times Flash fanboys have labelled people? Numerous times.

And what does it matter? They already have enough prep time to slaughter him. Don't get mad because your character can only compete with people who have to limit themselves to his level. Not like it matters, since he'll be laughably destroyed, but I just wanted to point it out. Logically, if the Surfer and Supes get prep, Supes dips, and Surfer goes intangible. Not much Wally can do here. No matter how hard Wally fans will stomp and cry, it doesn't change the fact that he dies here. End of discussion. Now can we move on?

@monsterstomp: One minute of prep is all a blood lusted SS would need to amp and raise his defenses, effectively shielding himself by the power cosmic for the blitz in which he knows is coming, unless you can show proof of the Flash penetrating the defenses of somebody on the level of a blood lusted Surfer then there is a really good chance that he can't, unless you can show proof of the Flash effectively fighting off matter/energy manipulation by somebody on the level of a blood lusted surfer, there is a very good chance he can't and will lose this fight.

What shield is SS putting up? Are you making sh*t up or has SS actually done it? Also, SS won't be allowed to put his shields up prior to the fight even starting, as soon as the fight starts, Flash will blitz him before his brain tells his body what to do! Even if he somehow got his "shields" up, Wally can phase through that and still blitz him. Give me proof of SS shielding abilities.

Did you not read that they have prep time, you Wally drone? He puts the damn shields up before the fight even starts; much like Supes dips before the fight even starts. Wally will die a horrible death here.

@monsterstomp:

I find it amusing that you need proof of SS being able to do something as simple as putting up a shield seeing as he wields the power cosmic and with it is able to do just about whatever he wants with energy/matter on a high end scale. Perhaps you should read up on him some if you question something like that.

I cannot believe this thread has gone this far espsially since WW and superman have already beaten flash before and flash has never beat them this thread is ridiculous

It's not even that. What amuses me is the fact that you actually have no more than 5 people actually arguing for Wally. Even when it's stated the team has prep. It's mind boggling. Hell, the prep isn't even needed; it's only there to throw the Wally fanboys a bone so that they don't say "LOL 10 MILLION IMPS IN A PICOSECOND HERP DERP". Arguing with them is impossible.

@hardcorefakes:

Agreed, it being argued that Wally can beat the likes of Superman, WW, Hal Jordan, Thor and SS all working together, all given prep time and all knowing Wally inside and out is a joke and does nothing but make this site look bad.

It's insanity, but it's best just to ignore those people. Most sites don't think Wally is some god, but there is an infestation of them here. I'm not sure why. Trust me, your IQ will be lowered when you hear some of the "math" and hypothetical situations they pull out of their asses, just because they know Flash has never done any of the BS that they make up and that he hasn't been this all-powerful divine being that they love to imagine he is. That's probably why he has to face the likes of Grodd and Captain Cold.

....I think I just opened up a can of worms.....

I just want proof on how strong his shields are or if he can even do it?

Killemall pointed out on an SS vs Superman and Martain Manhunter thread that SS has never created fire with the power cosmic, even though he could.

If he hasn't done it, ever, then why would he do it here? He could do it, but he hasn't done it. You can't just claim that because he wields the power cosmic he can create shields or whatever he wants. The dude hasn't even created fire. Stop trolling.

@hardcorefakes:

Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern and Thor are all non-factors here. Even going off of the New 52 Wally is waaaaaaay faster than them. Really, try putting up a 'Wally vs the rest of the Justice League (new 52)' thread up and see how many people will agree that Wally stomps them all.

However, considering SS does have a minute of prep he could very easily put up anti-speedblitz shields and then wipe out Wally with a massive supernova-level blast.

The hypocrisy is strong in this one.

And I can point out that Wally has never done 10 million IMPs in a picosecond.

If he hasn't done it, ever, then why would he do it here? He could do it, but he hasn't done it. You can't just claim that because he wields the speed force he can do 10 million IMPs or whatever he wants. The dude hasn't even done 10 million IMPs. Stop trolling.

You see what happens when your drone argument is flipped on it's side? Not so fun to be on the receiving end, is it?

*Cough cough* Surfer HAS created fire via the cosmic before though....And he doesn't even need shields, just intangibility (though a shield is REALLY easy for anyone with energy projection to create).

Intang doesn't work with Wally.

How strong are SS's shields?

@hardcorefakes:

On every occasion that Wally has done an IMP, he's knocked out his opponent (except for I think one instance that might have been up against Zoom which was already idiotic because Wally's not as fast as Zoom) or then said 'you know I could have thrown another million of those if I'd wanted to'. The rest of the JL (well, only Batman Superman and WW really, but hey) have all either confirmed this statement, nodded grimly at the time, or done something else to affirm his capability of doing so.

It's not even a special technique or anything. When Flash goes at a certain speed, ALL his punches (or theoretically kicks) are IMPs, reflected in the battle with Zum.

Except I never stated he could throw 10 million IMP's in a picosecond.

Only in the eyes of the Wally fanboys are they non-factors. Supes could solo him, no ifs ands or buts about it. Nope.

I can say about the same five people will think he stomps them. The rest will just laugh at the amount of fail coming out of their mouths. And considering Supes does have a minute of prep, he could just dip and IMP the planet, slaughtering Wally. But your mind is already made up, so it's pointless arguing with you.

Except most Wally fanboys do. Are you any different?

I'm not a fanboy.

I'm sure you're not. But tell me, do you think he can do 10 million IMPs in a picosecond?

I think would be the most telling part, if you say yes.

@hardcorefakes:

Erm...

in order for Supes to sundip, he'd have to be able to get to the Sun in 30 seconds, which is far faster than his max speed going to the sun (what was it, a minute and a half? two minutes)

So...yeah, that's impossible.

@hardcorefakes: I don't think he could. It wouldn't even matter, I doubt SS can take hits that out do what Thanos was doing. Wally is just too much. Too fast.

@monsterstomp:

First, the whole point of bloodlust is that the character will be using their abilities to their fullest extent possible to kill their opponent, that's sort of what bloodlust means. So, you can't claim since Surfer hasn't used his powers to do X he won't do it now. Those sorts of arguments only matter when the characters are fighting in character, but bloodlust negates CIS.

Second, Silver Surfer has created force fields strong enough to protect himself from the gravitational pull of black holes and he's even fought inside of black holes before. Such as when he fought Red Shift.

Third, the idea that SS has no answer for the speed force is just bunk. You've been following my debate with Dredeuced this whole time and yet you still continue to argue that Norrin, as a high-tier energy manipulator, can not manipulate speed force energy? Or simply transform it into any other form of energy he wants? Or simply nullify it?

A bloodlusted SS could use that 1 minute of prep to put himself and everybody else on the team inside of a field that essentially nullifies Wally's speed force abilities; the same way Captain Cold did to Barry Allen. After that, there's absolutely nothing Wally could do. Wally has no resistance or answer for high-tier energy manipulation.

Finally, how would Wally even kill SS? This is a fight to the death as stipulated by the OP. IMP's won't kill Norrin, neither will de-atomization. And, like I said before, dropping him off at the heat death of the universe won't work either because SS can time travel and travel in hyperspace.

@uberhikari:

Good arguments!

Wally solos because hes so fast its incomprehensible, he'd be able to KO before the team knew what was going on.

30 seconds? Why are you pulling things out of your ass?

Supes can fly at about 9 times the speed of light. The sun is 94 million miles away from Earth. Light takes about 8 minutes to travel here. You do the math. Go on. Think. He has more than enough time to dip. Don't get butthurt because he's about to obliterate Wally.

ROFL. It's a good argument because he's arguing why Surfer rips Wally to pieces? Yet, I give you facts about why Supes can do it also, and you cover your eyes and ears and say "LALALALA I can't hear you!!!"

Immature much?

@thevoiceofreason:

That feat was only by absorbing the speed of a planet of FTL-ers, though. And the team has a minute of prep so SS could bring up shields.

@uberhikari:

1. Wally can phase through SS's shields. Won't matter since he'll get to SS faster than SS can think to put up shields.

2. The Speed Force is from a foreign universe. It's not in the cosmic awareness level. It's out of SS's reach. It may be an energy source, but its clearly one that can't easily be exploited. It's not an automatic power set for SS. He can't exploit a persons power origin in the first zeptosecond of the fight. By the time SS figures out what he has to do, the team is out. SS just doesn't have the reaction to exploit the speed force before Wally can cover a mile.

3. Captain Cold usually sets the scene before Wally or Barry get there giving Cold the leg in their encounters. SS doesn't have that benefit here. The OP didn't say anything about toying with the battlefield prior to the fight.

Lol 10 million imps in a pico second lol, that's the funniest thing I've ever heard some people are on drugs, please lock this thread.

First, have you actually read New 52 Flash? Captain Cold didn't have shields when he fought Barry Allen, he essentially created a field around himself that nullifies Barry's powers. Norrin doesn't need shields. As a high-tier energy manipulator, all he would have to do is create a field around himself (and any member of the team) that would nullify Flash's speed force abilities.

Second, the team gets 1 minute of prep time. Norrin could use that prep time to put a field around himself and every other team member before the fight started.

Third, if the speed force can't be "easily exploited," then tell me how Captain Cold was able to whoop Barry's ass by doing just that. And Norrin is infinitely more powerful than Captain Cold.

Moreover, on what grounds do you claim that SS can't manipulate speed force energy? The Power Cosmic literally gives Norrin the ability to manipulate all forms of energy; it doesn't matter if it's foreign to him or not. If it's energy, he can manipulate it. (Again, I point to when he channeled the energies of the Big Crunch to kill Tenebrous and Aegis is Annihilation.) And just like I said to Dredeuced, this is a ridiculous double standard. Generally when characters don't have feats showing a specific kind of durability we assume they don't possess said durability. Flash has NO feats of resisting high-tier energy manipulation. None whatsoever.

Furthermore, the speed force is the source of Wally's power, but what he's actually manipulating is kinetic energy. And kinetic energy is not unique at all. What's stopping SS from turning all the kinetic energy that Wally uses into harmless light? Or thermal energy? Or lethal radiation?

Fourth, SS doesn't have to "toy with the battlefield." All he would need to do is put the field around himself and everybody else on the team.

@uberhikari:

btw

If SS can control kinetic energy

Why doesn't he just stop Thanos from punching?

Also, hasn't Thor broken through SS's shields on multiple occasions? If he wasn't amped up when he did this...

if its rune king thor or of thor thor solos flash (matter manipulation etc,) if its regular its a toss up between him and thor as for ss vs flash ss tkaes w/o trying

@uberhikari:

1. Don't compare Captain Cold to what SS could do. Captain Cold doesn't mess with the speed force, he creates a zero field that slows molecules. He is designed specifically to take Flash's. Moreover that is Barry! Not Wally. May I state again that Wally is much faster than Barry. Superman and Captain Atom are faster than Barry currently.

2. I suppose SS can create a field, but still, he doesn't know how to exploit Wally's speed. It's too versatile to understand in a minute. He literally won't have the time. Also with the kinetic thing? No, the speed force grants Wally his powers, its the source of his speed, without it he is human. SS can't take his kinetic energy. Not when Wally can lend, steal and share speed himself. Moreover, SS can't manipulate physical and magical energy. Thanos literally beat SS to a pulp, physically. Wally can do the same in less time.

Because the writers didn't want him to? That's like asking why anybody gets punched...because that's the way the writers wrote it, lol. Characters aren't independent entities that can choose how they act in stories.

I'm not aware of any instance where Thor has broken through Norrin's shields. In any event, Norrin doesn't need shields to win this fight.

The Wally fanboys don't care. They think he can solo universes.

Wait, so are you arguing that Norrin could not create a zero field as well? Not quite sure what you're saying here. And it doesn't matter if it's Wally or Barry. The point is that there are ways that Norrin, as a high-tier energy manipulator, can exploit Wally's weaknesses. Moreover, Norrin doesn't have to specifically use a zero field; he's a high-tier energy manipulator. He can use the Power Cosmic to develop any sort of field he wants to nullify speed force abilities or slow down Wally's molecules. With the versatility of the Power Cosmic, Norrin's possibilities are pretty much endless.

Silver Surfer has nano-second operational speed. 1 nanosecond is like 31 years compared to a second, and there are 60 seconds in a minute so...he'll have plenty of time to think this over. Moreover, I never said Norrin could take his kinetic energy, he doesn't have to. He can transform it into anything he likes. And where exactly are you getting that Norrin can't manipulate "physical and magical energy"?! It's routinely accepted on comicvine that Norrin can easily own Green Lantern by draining his ring. And the idea that Norrin can't manipulate kinetic energy because he gets punched is out-of-this-world silly. So, Wally never gets punched? Thanos once knocked Galactus off his feet with an energy blast, does that mean Galactus can't manipulate energy now?