Doctor Doom vs Doctor Strange

Rules:

• both are in there standard form. No "God Doom" or "Classic Strange"
• No prep time, random encounter fight
• Fight is to the death

Been done.

Doctor Strange.

@mysticmedivh: My bad, I'm new to the site.

Stephen Strange.

Doom

I'd put all my chips with Strange...

How do you think Doom would win?

Matching him with magic then oneshotting him with tech

Stephen could win with TP or time manipulation.

Dr. Doom is not a match for Strange with Magic. Doom explicitly states Strange is superior and needed prep to amp his power more than x10 just to keep up with Strange:

And even after that Strange was shown to be superior. And what tech does Doom carry that can one shot Stephen? Why couldn't Stephen just send him to another dimension with a mere gesture?

Doom is easily Strange level nowadays. He's matched him since that storyline many times and has outdone him and others have said he's stronger. Any tech can one shot Strange and it has before. His normal blasts even. And Doom can teleport through dimensions so that would do nothing for Strange except allow for a sneak attack.

Strange

I would need to see scans because I find this very difficult to believe. Even in recent comics Dr. Strange was stated to be the most powerful mage in the world:

Dr. Strange is said to be able to kill WWH, one of the most powerful incarnations of Hulk, with a twitch of his finger and end mass conflicts like the Civil War event with a whisper:

Gallery

If Doom had that kind of power, he would have ruled the world by now.

Any tech can one shot Strange and it has before.

Evidence? His normal blasts couldn't even one shot Dr. Voodoo who was a vastly inferior Sorcerer Supreme and Doom even had prep.

His normal blasts even.

I know this is false. The shield which Strange possesses at all times have taken hits from beings explicitly stated to be 5x stronger Thanos, multiple shouts from Black Bolt, and attacks said to be capable of eviscerating mountains into dust.

Don't even get me started on his casted shields which are planetary+.

Awkward moment when Doom runs from Voodoo like a little beetch :P

@m_man: He talked about it in another thread but didn't get the context. It's true that Doom once captured Strange. But he was amped by three high level demons who even after, told Doom he couldn't face Strange directly. So while Strange was distracted by a large number of minor demons Doom hit him with a cheap shot from behind. And as I mentioned to him before, that was the modern Strange you hear people talk about being a shell of his former self, heck Strange eventually even referenced as much in the comics. He never had any chance against classic Strange, nor his more recent return to form. But even in that gap between it still required special circumstances/context for it.

And his counter to your bfr comment is missing two important details. He has done as much to people far more adept at traveling dimensions. There are many ways to make it effective on someone who knows what Doom does. Like when he sent Mordo through time/space and dimensions in such a way and pace that he couldn't get any bearings to stop himself let alone find a way to return (Mordo had to be pulled back from a third party). The other thing is a sneak attack on an aware Strange doesn't work. People have even tried escaping from him via that method but Strange was right there waiting for them (it's a simple thing for him no matter how many galaxies or dimensions away a person is). And that was one of the most simple examples you could have used.

@m_man said:

@darkraiden said:

Doom is easily Strange level nowadays. He's matched him since that storyline many times and has outdone him and others have said he's stronger.

I would need to see scans because I find this very difficult to believe. Even in recent comics Dr. Strange was stated to be the most powerful mage in the world:

Dr. Strange is said to be able to kill WWH, one of the most powerful incarnations of Hulk, with a twitch of his finger and end mass conflicts like the Civil War event with a whisper:

Gallery

If Doom had that kind of power, he would have ruled the world by now.

Any tech can one shot Strange and it has before.

Evidence? His normal blasts couldn't even one shot Dr. Voodoo who was a vastly inferior Sorcerer Supreme and Doom even had prep.

His normal blasts even.

I know this is false. The shield which Strange possesses at all times have taken hits from beings explicitly stated to be 5x stronger Thanos, multiple shouts from Black Bolt, and attacks said to be capable of eviscerating mountains into dust.

Don't even get me started on his casted shields which are planetary+.

Here he stopped his spell easily

Scarlet Witch says his magic is more powerful than hers or Strange's

Oneshots him (amped admittedly), 1

Strange says Doom knows more

Doom and his robots trap Strange (I believe he ambushed him). Also oneshots Surfer (weakened).

I can also point out times where he's oneshotted Adam Warlock, Annihilus, Hulk, etc. All who are also planet level.

That's a Spider-Man comic that doesn't even acknowledge any sort of continuity of Dr. Strange seeing as how if the writer knew anything about Strange, he'd know he has infinitely more powerful shields he uses on a regular basis and wouldn't use the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak because it doesn't even make sense. His basic shields that he can summon with a thought have withstood forces strong enough to hurl planets from their orbits.

Scarlet Witch says his magic is more powerful than hers or Strange's

I think I'd take the word of The Watcher over Scarlet Witch's any day. Here's another instance that confirms Strange is the strongest sorcerer:

Oneshots him (amped admittedly), 1

If he's amped then it's moot.

Strange says Doom knows more

He never even said that. Saying he knows things that he does not =/= knowing more. There are plenty of spells Strange knows that Doom does not.

Doom and his robots trap Strange (I believe he ambushed him). Also oneshots Surfer (weakened).

I don't even have to click on this to know what you're referring to. During the Infinity Gauntlet series. Ambushed with prep and help isn't that impressive.

I can also point out times where he's oneshotted Adam Warlock, Annihilus, Hulk, etc. All who are also planet level.

Strange's shields have withstood attacks from Galactus, Zarathos, Mephisto (in his realm), and Dormammu.

Here's the inferior Dr. Voodoo as Sorcerer Supreme two-shotting Doom:

Gallery

Unlike that instance in that Spider-Man comic, this issue actually acknowledges the continuity of Doom and Strange and their competition for Sorcerer Supreme was even acknowledged.

@m_man said:

@darkraiden said:

Here he stopped his spell easily

That's a Spider-Man comic that doesn't even acknowledge any sort of continuity of Dr. Strange seeing as how if the writer knew anything about Strange, he'd know he has infinitely more powerful shields he uses on a regular basis and wouldn't use the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak because it doesn't even make sense. His basic shields that he can summon with a thought have withstood forces strong enough to hurl planets from their orbits.

Scarlet Witch says his magic is more powerful than hers or Strange's

I think I'd take the word of The Watcher over Scarlet Witch's any day. Here's another instance that confirms Strange is the strongest sorcerer:

Oneshots him (amped admittedly), 1

If he's amped then it's moot.

Strange says Doom knows more

He never even said that. Saying he knows things that he does not =/= knowing more. There are plenty of spells Strange knows that Doom does not.

Doom and his robots trap Strange (I believe he ambushed him). Also oneshots Surfer (weakened).

I don't even have to click on this to know what you're referring to. During the Infinity Gauntlet series. Ambushed with prep and help isn't that impressive.

I can also point out times where he's oneshotted Adam Warlock, Annihilus, Hulk, etc. All who are also planet level.

Strange's shields have withstood attacks from Galactus, Zarathos, Mephisto (in his realm), and Dormammu.

Here's the inferior Dr. Voodoo as Sorcerer Supreme two-shotting Doom:

Gallery

Unlike that instance in that Spider-Man comic, this issue actually acknowledges the continuity of Doom and Strange and their competition for Sorcerer Supreme was even acknowledged.

I mean...Doom's shields have withstood the same punishment and more (Beyonder and IG added onto that list). Also Voodoo's not really inferior to Strange and handled Nightmare and Dormammu easier than he generally does. And Voodoo didn't two shot Doom at all.

Oh and the Watcher is literally wrong. Strange is far from the most powerful magic user. Shuma Gorath, Dormammu, Living Tribunal would all disagree. Hell even Loki has a great argument. I'll take Scarlet Witch and Strange's own words.

I'd like to see that.

I'd also like to point out that pre-retconned Beyonder said Strange is mightier than any in the Marvel universe might suspect.

and IG added onto that list).

Thanos was toying with everyone then. Regardless, Strange's Shield consistently operate on that level:

Shields from a force conjured by Dormammu said strong enough to hurl multiple planets from their orbits (and Strange was weakened too):

Gallery

Shields from Mephisto in his realm:

Gallery

Shied's himself AND Doom against Mephisto in his own realm yet again and then from Doom's own anti-matter bomb:

Gallery

Shields from Galactus:

Shield's from Cyttorak:

Shields from both Satannish and Mephisto's power:

Shields from Dormmamu's power:

etc. etc. etc.

Doom's does not.

Also Voodoo's not really inferior to Strange and handled Nightmare

In Strange's earliest years of his early career before he received numerous permanent amps, he defeated Nightmare with basic illusions in a single comic. So, no he didn't.

and Dormammu easier than he generally does.

He had instruction and knowledge Strange gave him.

And Voodoo didn't two shot Doom at all.

I counted two hits and Doom was down then left knowing he couldn't win.

Oh and the Watcher is literally wrong. Strange is far from the most powerful magic user. Shuma Gorath, Dormammu, Living Tribunal would all disagree. Hell even Loki has a great argument. I'll take Scarlet Witch

That wasn't the Watcher's quote. I was referring to the first quote I posted being the Watcher's. The second is another testimony though The Watcher's is more credible. And the key to The Watcher's words here being "in your world":

and Strange's own words.

1. Strange never said Doom knew more.

2. If you want to take Strange's words:

Only reason Doom could beat Strange according to Strange himself is with prep/ambush which would make up for Doom's "lesser skills".

@m_man:

Voodoo beat him because his brother was surprisingly able to possess Doom and drop his defenses. And considering Doom has taken hits from Hulk and Thor h2h, it'd be a very inconsistent feat. Note that Strange couldn't even beat WWHulk with an amp.

Doom tanks a Watcher's blast, 1

Doom tanks Sentry's hit and takes him out with magic

Forcefield tanks ejection from Galactus

Tanks blast from Infinity Gauntlet (note Thanos was angry at Doom for trying to take the gauntlet from him. The scan even says Doom feels his wrath)

Forcefield blocks blast from Beyonder.

The same Blast KO'd Galactus

As for Strange's statement about himself being stronger than Doom, I don't take that seriously. It's hyping himself. if we took that from Doom, then he'd be all powerful and omnipotent. But him saying Doom knows things he doesn't? That's a big deal considering the source. The Sorcerer Supreme wrong can be proven wrong unless you think Voodoo is stronger than Strange. Even then it'd prove the statement wrong.

And the issue with all of your scans is that Strange has definitely gotten weaker since. Doom hasn't. Most of those are Classic Strange and thus not applicable to this topic. And Doom has that one feat where he was able to kill Marquis of Death and oneshot a Watcher. With no amps. He's also straight up killed Molecule Man before (with a blast) and drained Franklin Richards. So his tech AND his magic are above Strange.

I know I joked about if before but Voodoo is not better than Doom, when Doom and Voodoo fought Nightmare's forces Voodoo was the first to fall (granted via the Penance Stare). Doom probably just left because he realized he wasn't able to become the SS yet, since the Eye was clearly working against him.

Only because Doom was amped. When he no longer had the amp, Voodoo two-shotted him.

Doom tanks a Watcher's blast, 1

The same Watcher that said Strange was the strongest mage in the world?

Doom tanks Sentry's hit

Which doesn't compare to any of the feats I posted. All the scans I posted involved cosmic level beings. Sentry isn't a cosmic-level being. Regardless Dr. Strange has taken a hit from a clone of Thanos that was stated to be 5x physically stronger than Thanos:

and takes him out with magic

He did not take him out. Tony even stopped Victor from attacking further because Sentry would have killed them both.

Forcefield tanks ejection from Galactus

I don't see how being ejected into space compares to any of the feats I posted.

Tanks blast from Infinity Gauntlet

Thanos could have one-shotted everyone if he wanted, he had the power. He chose just to hurt him instead. That isn't impressive.

Forcefield blocks blast from Beyonder.

Which scan is he actually hit? I don't even see it hitting him. And, again, that same Beyonder said Strange was mightier than anyone in the MU suspects.

You only posted two definitive scans of Doom taking a hit from cosmic level beings and one of them from a being who stated that Strange was the strongest sorcerer and another which was from Thanos who wasn't taking anyone seriously.

As for Strange's statement about himself being stronger than Doom, I don't take that seriously. It's hyping himself. if we took that from Doom, then he'd be all powerful and omnipotent.

First off, Strange isn't a megalomaniac like Doom. Secondly, Doom confirmed the exact same thing in the very previous comic when he spoke through Strange:

Doom speaking as Strange stated that Strange rivals "any power he could amass" as in any amount of power Doom could possibly obtain, Strange could challenge. He also stated he used a stealth spell and ambushed Strange with an army of demons which he did just that as you see the demons on-panel. This isn't hypebole, this is literally what happened in the story. Both Doom and Strange came to the exact same conclusion in that arc.

You have Doom saying Strange is stronger in sorcery in two different comics.

The Watcher saying Strange is the strongest sorcerer.

And Strange saying he's stronger than Doom.

I don't see how much clearer it can get.

But him saying Doom knows things he doesn't? That's a big deal considering the source. The Sorcerer Supreme wrong can be proven wrong unless you think Voodoo is stronger than Strange. Even then it'd prove the statement wrong.

Nicodemus, a complete amateur mage who admitted he stood literally no chance against Strange in magic, possessed certain knowledge on magic that Strange did not. You're basically blaming Strange for not being omniscient.

And the issue with all of your scans is that Strange has definitely gotten weaker since. Doom hasn't. Most of those are Classic Strange and thus not applicable to this topic.

Not according to the Brevoort:

And Doom has that one feat where he was able to kill Marquis of Death and oneshot a Watcher. With no amps. He's also straight up killed Molecule Man before (with a blast) and drained Franklin Richards. So his tech AND his magic are above Strange.

Most of these claims are absurd and I'd need scans and context. If he was this powerful he wouldn't have trouble with the FF on a regular basis or lose to Iron Man. You also just posted a scan of a Watcher one-shotting Doom so it's even contradictory.

Actually looking back Voodoo only went down to Nightmare's forces because he was helping Doom. Still Doom is honestly better IMO.

@m_man:

1. I don't remember Doom being amped when he fought Voodoo.

2. It looks like a different Watcher, and his power levels have NOTHING to do with his statements, something you seem caught up on. Statements don't mean more because they come from someone more powerful.

3. Sentry is a cosmic level being based on his feats. He's taken out Void, Molecule Man, most of Asgard, etc. And Considering Strange is normally taken out by much less (Ghost Rider's chains, WWHulk, and so on), the Thanos feat is an outlier.

4. He did take Sentry out. Sentry was done from the fight, Iron Man warned Doom he could kill them both, a statement with no proof that has been contradicted multiple times by feats.

5. He was hit by Galactus's power and easily tanked it. That's impressive

6. Thanos didn't appear to beholding back according to the narrative. You generally don't hold back when angry and right after that he literally said he was done holding back.

7. Not sure what scan you're looking at but he's literally right next to Beyonder's blast and is fine. Galactus is KO'd.

8. Doom is speaking as Strange. Why would he change his wording? That's not proof at all. Doom said Strange was stronger back when he was stronger. Now he's not. It's very simple. Watcher nor Beyonder mean much considering things they've said and been wrong about. And Doom bested both of them. I'd say Doom has just as many moments where he's shown to be => Strange in magic (inversion spell, Children's Crusade, Strange's own mouth, that example above).

9. I'm just quoting Strange. He says Doom knows what he does not. In the context of that question, it implies he knows more. Scarlet Witch later backs it up.

10. Brevoort is wrong though. Feats clearly show this. Strange is nowhere near those days anymore.

11. Context:

Marquis of Death turned Dooms insides to lava and stone or w/e and left him stranded back in time. Doom's 'hate' kept him alive and he trained for centuries honing his skills, it shows him killing a Watcher to keep his secret. He then poses as MoD's apprentice and finishes him off when the amped Fantastic Four defeat him.

Molecule Man, 1

Franklin Richards

Doom doesn't generally lose to Iron Man. Fantastic Four beat people like Galactus and Marquis of Death so they clearly have some plot armor on them. And no, the Watcher hit Doom and Doom was unaffected. Not oneshotted. The complete opposite.

He was. Unless you're referring to the first fight in that series, in which case he had prep and ambushed Voodoo in a hospital where he worked and then drained his magic. Why would Doom need to go through all that if he's so far above him?

It looks like a different Watcher, and his power levels have NOTHING to do with his statements, something you seem caught up on. Statements don't mean more because they come from someone more powerful.

It means more when that someone watches literally everything on Earth and knows the planet better than anyone else mentioned here.

Sentry is a cosmic level being based on his feats. He's taken out Void, Molecule Man, most of Asgard, etc.

That's been disputed multiple times and is another debate entirely. Regardless, Sentry was unstable, wasn't trying to kill Doom, and wasn't even taken out by Doom at all.

And Considering Strange is normally taken out by much

I could say the same about Doom. Iron Man, FF, and Thor.

less (Ghost Rider's chains

That never happened. I think you're referring to Zarathos.

WWHulk, and so on)

No.

Out of context fight. Strange was tricked and had his arms broken so he couldn't cast any spells. If he wanted to, Hulk would be dead "with the merest twitch of a finger".

the Thanos feat is an outlier.

That feat is negligible as stated earlier.

He did take Sentry out. Sentry was done from the fight, Iron Man warned Doom he could kill them both, a statement with no proof that has been contradicted multiple times by feats.

He so far above Sentry that Sentry one-shotted him after they returned to their time?

He was hit by Galactus's power and easily tanked it. That's impressive

All he did was eject him. He didn't even attack him like he did Strange.

Thanos didn't appear to beholding back according to the narrative. You generally don't hold back when angry and right after that he literally said he was done holding back.

He was holding back based on the fact he didn't kill everyone simultaneously. He had the power to but he didn't. That's the definition of holding back.

Not sure what scan you're looking at but he's literally right next to Beyonder's blast and is fine. Galactus is KO'd.

......How is being next to an attack impressive if it doesn't hit you in any way? It even says in the scan he let Galactus take the hit so he can move on.

Doom is speaking as Strange. Why would he change his wording?

What do you mean about changing his wording? He said this literally the issue BEFORE Strange said Doom was less skilled in magic. He wasn't parroting what Strange said because 1. He didn't hear it. 2. Dr. Strange never even said it yet. Doom said Strange was more skilled before Strange even did in that arc.

That's not proof at all. Doom said Strange was stronger back when he was stronger. Now he's not. It's very simple. Watcher nor Beyonder mean much considering things they've said and been wrong about. And Doom bested both of them. I'd say Doom has just as many moments where he's shown to be => Strange in magic (inversion spell, Children's Crusade, Strange's own mouth, that example above).

You keep saying Strange's own mouth when he never said anything of the sort. I addressed this several times. Again, if you want to go by what Strange thinks, here it is:

First you go by what Strange says (or what you think he meant) but then what Strange says doesn't count when it's no longer convenient for your argument.

I'm just quoting Strange. He says Doom knows what he does not. In the context of that question, it implies he knows more. Scarlet Witch later backs it up.

Dude......everyone knows something someone else does not. I know things you don't and vise versa. It doesn't make sense. It's a very forced argument based on twisting that one statement to mean what you want.

Brevoort is wrong though. Feats clearly show this. Strange is nowhere near those days anymore.

First you're denying The Watcher and now an actually authority in Marvel comics.

Marquis of Death turned Dooms insides to lava and stone or w/e and left him stranded back in time. Doom's 'hate' kept him alive and he trained for centuries honing his skills, it shows him killing a Watcher to keep his secret. He then poses as MoD's apprentice and finishes him off when the amped Fantastic Four defeat him.

Molecule Man, 1

Franklin Richards

I looked up that issue. Molecule Man's powers weren't even active and he was still alive the very next issue.

Doom doesn't generally lose to Iron Man. Fantastic Four beat people like Galactus and Marquis of Death so they clearly have some plot armor on them. And no, the Watcher hit Doom and Doom was unaffected. Not oneshotted. The complete opposite.

I honestly see Doom fight and struggle with much weaker opponents. Iron Man, Sentry (breaking Doom's shield with one hand), and FF on a regular basis. Hell, in Secret Wars #9 when MM stripped Victor of his Beyonder powers, he struggled greatly with Mr. Fantastic. In Dr. Voodoo's run, he needed prep to beat him but when Doom fought him with no prep, Voodoo two-shotted Doom. In the FF comic I referenced earlier, Doom was amped with powerful magic and still got tossed around by the FF. I posted far more feats with Strange fighting and defending against abstracts than you have for Doom (and I haven't even show all of Strange's yet). I posted more scans stating Strange is the strongest Sorcerer while you only have one. I don't see Doom operating on that level you claim ever or at least certainly not as the norm from every comic I read for him.

@m_man:

1. What you described...wasn't an amp. And Doom's a villain. That's why he did that.

2. Doom doesn't get taken out by Iron Man. Fantastic Four usually need to exploit a flaw/weakness and are above Strange btw. Thor is arguably above Strange and has a 1-1 record with Doom.

3. Nah, Ghost Rider. It was even Blaze still in control at the time. From the scans I've seen. I could also mention the Traveler, a Blackbolt Skrull, Magik, etc.

4. That statement is literally proven wrong. He tries and still can't put down WWHulk. He's then tricked yes, but the fact that he had to amp himself with Zom in the first place shows his inferiority to Hulk in that instance

5. Doom is trying to masquerade as Strange. He's not gonna say "Doom is better than me in every way." That'd be dumb. Doom is not dumb.

6. I deny what contradicts feats. It's clear to everyone that Classic Strange is not Modern Strange. The difference in feats is the difference between an ant and a dragon, a house and a planet. There's a reason people use 'Classic Strange' as a term.

7. Molecule Man died though. Yeah he came back, but Doom killed him. That's impressive in itself. And the Franklin Richards feat still puts his armor above Strange.

8. Sentry's not below Strange. Doom only struggles with Reed when he's written poorly (as he was in Secret Wars. Very poorly). He's normally easily beating the entire Fantastic Four, Silver Surfer, Adam Warlock, Annihilus, etc. In Unthinkable he stomped the Fantastic 4 several times and they had to outsmart him to beat him so...no he doesn't lose to weaker people. Oh and the vast majority of his losses are doombots. His doombots have even taken on entire X-Men teams.

You only showed Classic Strange which is specifically not allowed by the topic. So that was useless. And Doom's still beaten better (Beyonder, Galactus several times, Franklin Richards, Marquis of Death).

@darkraiden:

You're honestly just repeating the same arguments or taking things out of context. This argument is isn't going anywhere. I don't concede and I'm pretty confidant that if anyone looks at the evidence I provided they'd come to the same conclusion.

Because the same arguments work. And I've taken literally nothing out of context. But w/e.

Doom.

Dr. Strange.

Dr. Strange in a lolrotfcoptorstomp.

Such unnecessary bump.

I assume this is the conversation about Doom being superior to Strange.

Yep. This one exactly.

Dr Strange I mean Doom is obviously good but even he states Stephen is far more powerful. Dooms not Even second with Loki seen as Stranges equal with magic. At any rate Sorcerer Supreme for the win in a good fight

Doctor Strange.

Strange. Doom is s powerful sorceror and has great tech but he's second fiddle to Strange

Like who the hell mentions loki? Strange or doom would stomp loki

Doctor Strange.

Any Doom with Godlike Powers > Classic Strange > Regular Strange Sorcerer of Supreme > Doctor Doom > Any Other Strange.

Surprised no one has posted the Secret Wars scan to rustle some people.

So you're telling me that Dr Doom. Able to absorb the power of the beyonder. Able to siphon the power of GALACTUS THE DEVOURER OF WORLDS LOSES TO A LOSER WHO LOST THE USE OF HIS HANDS IN A CARCRASH!

@ecstaticgrace: tru but If Doom actually put his magic above his tech it’d be a different story. Tbh🤷🏾‍♂️