The Sandman comics have shown that Angels, Demons, etc (including Lucifer) belong to a lesser order of beings than The Endless or The Kindly Ones. In a fight though it depends on other factors than speed, strength, power etc. It depends entirely on the fates of the two, and that depends on a host of other factors completely unrelated to the fight itself, factors that might have been decided centuries before the two ever meet up to fight.
" The scan IMO means Morning Star is Above death. at least he needs to be in order to be Unaffected by Death. "
No, just that she had no claim on him. That dosn't mean that she will never have a claim on him, just that she isn't presently there to claim him, just to offer him some advice and say "Hi".
" The Sandman comics have shown that Angels, Demons, etc (including Lucifer) belong to a lesser order of beings than The Endless or The Kindly Ones. In a fight though it depends on other factors than speed, strength, power etc. It depends entirely on the fates of the two, and that depends on a host of other factors completely unrelated to the fight itself, factors that might have been decided centuries before the two ever meet up to fight.
So...
Lucifer Wins
(if he is fated to)
or
Death Wins
(if she is fated to) "
This is very simple to explain.
Lucifer is the second most-powerful being in creation. The most powerful being in creation was God, now Elaine Belloc. There is no middle ground. Lucifer wins.
The Kindly Ones are below the Endless. Dream stated that Lucifer could destroy him if he wanted to.
@lagoon_boy: Pretty much, yeah. Lucifer awakens in a black void, presumeably just after getting his butt kicked. He sees Death. He tells Death that she has no claim over him (to paraphrase "I ain't dead"). Death agrees that she has no claim on Lucifer (he isn't dead yet and thus she has no claim over him) but warns that big things are afoot.
Lucifer and Death arn't Tights-and-Capes types who stand on rooftops and shout monologues. They are more ... hmm... metaphysical than that.
Lucifer is the second most powerful being in the universe. Elaine is the most powerful being in two universes. This is established in Lucifer cannon.
... but that's it. They are very big fish in a very little pond.
The Endless are more powerful than that, shown to have sway over the entire multiverse. Death herself has ended universes. This is established in Sandman cannon.
Lucifer is also bound by certain rules, whereas Thessaly The Witch states that Death of The Endless isn't. In Brief Lives it is stated that Death will outlive the end of everything. Presumably 'everything' includes Lucifer.
Of course as one of The Endless this incarnation of Death may end, but Death of The Endless her/itself will not end until everything else that can end has ended. It's kind of implied in her name and title. Even then it is a paradox wither Death can end herself if she is necessary to fulfil the function of ending and ushering into wherever Death goes when Death itself dies. I mean, can death die?
So it comes down to wither it is ever stated anywhere in Sandman or Lucifer that Lucifer is more powerful than Death of The Endless. He is the second most powerful person in one, possibly two, universes. Big fish, small pond. She is Death for the entire multiverse.
Of course, in a fight it depends whoever is fated to win.
Even if Lucifer is fated to win and kill this incarnation of Death, there will still be Death of The Endless there to take her prior incarnation away.
" Lucifer is the second most powerful being in the universe. Elaine is the most powerful being in two universes. ... but that's it. They are very big fish in a very little pond. The Endless are more powerful than that, shown to have sway over the entire multiverse. Lucifer is also bound by certain rules, whereas Thessaly The Witch states that Death of The Endless isn't. In Brief Lives it is stated that Death will outlive the end of everything. Presumably 'everything' includes Lucifer. "
Sorry, second most-powerful being in the multiverse. And since Elaine took over the role of the Presence, she is the most powerful being in the DC multiverse. The multiverse is equivalent with "creation", let's be clear on that. And Lucifer's own creation was a multiverse as well.
Did you completely ignore Dream's statement? He even prepared for the possibility of his destruction.
What are these rules?
Lucifer is composed of pure will. The only reason he could not escape is because Susanoo turned his own power against him. And yes he died, hence the need for an equivalent exchange (Elaine) for him to leave.
@CosmicSpiral: I'm having trouble coming up with supporting evidence for Lucifer having any power outside his own corner of the multiverse. True, he did create a second universe (but by harnessing a rare power source). I'd also point out that creation dosn't equal multiverse. "All of creation" can mean a single universe such as the one created by Lucifer or the one that Lucifer comes from that was created by The Presence.
Sadly it seems that this is a case of Superman looses to Batman in Batman comics, Batman looses in Superman titles.
In Lucifer the series focuses on the most powerful and interesting beings around. Same with Sandman. Both sources should at best be regarded as being 'unreliable narrators', and any claims of power levels should be regarded sceptically. After all, every boxer claims to be "the best" or "unbeatable", yet only one will hold the title. We can only go on what we have observed, and that is Lucifer being powerful in one universe of the DC Multiverse, and The Endless seemingly being multiversal. Regardless of who is more powerful in terms of relative power, a fight to the death with Death might be impossible to win. It would be like trying to lick your own elbow, impossible but entertaining to watch.
Put simply I'm unsure who would win, or even if a fight would be possible.
(joke) However, I'd have to go with "The Midnighter" to win in this contest. He comes from outside the DC Multiverse, from the greater series of Multiverses in The Bleed that DCs Multiverse exists in. Also he looks hot in leather. I think that should count for something. Right? Wait, can it be a jello-pit fight to the death? (/joke)
Lucifer. Couple of pages later he actually threatens her that he'll destroy her if she doesn't chose her words, and she doesn't deny it. Dream himself has stated that Lucifer is a being far more powerful than him. Whoever is saying angels are lesser than the Endless needs to get a clue.
" Lucifer. Couple of pages later he actually threatens her that he'll destroy her if she doesn't chose her words, and she doesn't deny it. Dream himself has stated that Lucifer is a being far more powerful than him. Whoever is saying angels are lesser than the Endless needs to get a clue. "
99% of the angels are lesser than the Endless. By far.
" Lucifer. Couple of pages later he actually threatens her that he'll destroy her if she doesn't chose her words, and she doesn't deny it. Dream himself has stated that Lucifer is a being far more powerful than him. Whoever is saying angels are lesser than the Endless needs to get a clue. "
99% of the angels are lesser than the Endless. By far. "
" Lucifer. Couple of pages later he actually threatens her that he'll destroy her if she doesn't chose her words, and she doesn't deny it. Dream himself has stated that Lucifer is a being far more powerful than him. Whoever is saying angels are lesser than the Endless needs to get a clue. "
99% of the angels are lesser than the Endless. By far. "
Stop ruining my point. :P "
LOL. I just think that angels are, generally speaking, overrated due to their status, Lucifer and Michael aside.
" @CosmicSpiral: I'm having trouble coming up with supporting evidence for Lucifer having any power outside his own corner of the multiverse. True, he did create a second universe (but by harnessing a rare power source). I'd also point out that creation dosn't equal multiverse. "All of creation" can mean a single universe such as the one created by Lucifer or the one that Lucifer comes from that was created by The Presence.
Sadly it seems that this is a case of Superman looses to Batman in Batman comics, Batman looses in Superman titles.
In Lucifer the series focuses on the most powerful and interesting beings around. Same with Sandman. Both sources should at best be regarded as being 'unreliable narrators', and any claims of power levels should be regarded sceptically. After all, every boxer claims to be "the best" or "unbeatable", yet only one will hold the title. We can only go on what we have observed, and that is Lucifer being powerful in one universe of the DC Multiverse, and The Endless seemingly being multiversal. Regardless of who is more powerful in terms of relative power, a fight to the death with Death might be impossible to win. It would be like trying to lick your own elbow, impossible but entertaining to watch.
Put simply I'm unsure who would win, or even if a fight would be possible.
(joke) However, I'd have to go with "The Midnighter" to win in this contest. He comes from outside the DC Multiverse, from the greater series of Multiverses in The Bleed that DCs Multiverse exists in. Also he looks hot in leather. I think that should count for something. Right? Wait, can it be a jello-pit fight to the death? (/joke) "
What's his "own corner"? He created a mutliverse from Michael's power; he even states it in a conversation. The comic is pretty clear that Lucifer can't create something from nothing, and that's his only limitation in power. So Michael was necessary to create something in the Void. Otherwise Lucifer is free to manipulate whatever he wants.
If you read Batman comics, you know that Batman loses in them. Analogy fail. Lucifer was acknowledged as the second most-powerful being in the Sandman title, not the Lucifer title. It was the same title in which Dream reasonably expected to be destroyed upon his second trip to Hell. He also forcibly opened doors in the Dreaming, where Dream's wishes are paramount.
Elaine was not very powerful until the end of the series. Meleos was not very powerful. Mazikeen was not very powerful. Yet they were all major players.
A book is not an 'unreliable narrator' any more than a perspective can be considered 'wordy'. Sandman and Lucifer are largely third-person narratives. The most unreliable narrator you can find is Lyta Hall, because she went off the deep end.
I just licked my own elbow. Are people really that inflexible?
" I love both these characters but I really couldn't care less who would "win"...however, I do see the same arguments over and over and want to see someone properly explain how Lucifer wins since in Neil Gaiman's own Books of Magic, Death is shown to be the last being in existence in the universe...so where does Lucifer come in? Obviously he had to have met his end somewhere. It's not like it's impossible for him to die. So someone, please enlighten me, where is the flaw in my logic? Do I come at this from the wrong angle, maybe? "
Remember, Lucifer embarks at a journey beyond the Presence's Universe at the end of his series. It is conceivable that his existence is continued someplace else.
" I love both these characters but I really couldn't care less who would "win"...however, I do see the same arguments over and over and want to see someone properly explain how Lucifer wins since in Neil Gaiman's own Books of Magic, Death is shown to be the last being in existence in the universe...so where does Lucifer come in? Obviously he had to have met his end somewhere. It's not like it's impossible for him to die. So someone, please enlighten me, where is the flaw in my logic? Do I come at this from the wrong angle, maybe? "
Remember, Lucifer embarks at a journey beyond the Presence's Universe at the end of his series. It is conceivable that his existence is continued someplace else. "
ah, you have outsmarted me there...but is it not also conceivable that Death is at the end of all universes? "
" I love both these characters but I really couldn't care less who would "win"...however, I do see the same arguments over and over and want to see someone properly explain how Lucifer wins since in Neil Gaiman's own Books of Magic, Death is shown to be the last being in existence in the universe...so where does Lucifer come in? Obviously he had to have met his end somewhere. It's not like it's impossible for him to die. So someone, please enlighten me, where is the flaw in my logic? Do I come at this from the wrong angle, maybe? "
Remember, Lucifer embarks at a journey beyond the Presence's Universe at the end of his series. It is conceivable that his existence is continued someplace else. "
ah, you have outsmarted me there...but is it not also conceivable that Death is at the end of all universes? "
Of all the Universes encompassing His creation - but it was evident that Lucifer met his father in neutral ground - beyond the jurisdiction of either one of them. And while the Endless are multiversal beings (Dream mentioned a Universe getting destroyed due to a Vortex, eons ago, to Rose Walker), I think that could elude even them.
" I love both these characters but I really couldn't care less who would "win"...however, I do see the same arguments over and over and want to see someone properly explain how Lucifer wins since in Neil Gaiman's own Books of Magic, Death is shown to be the last being in existence in the universe...so where does Lucifer come in? Obviously he had to have met his end somewhere. It's not like it's impossible for him to die. So someone, please enlighten me, where is the flaw in my logic? Do I come at this from the wrong angle, maybe? "
Currently Lucifer is flying around in the Void or the Primal Monitor, depending on how close you want to be to DC continuity. Either way he is existing beyond the mutliverse.
"I love both these characters but I really couldn't care less who would "win"...however, I do see the same arguments over and over and want to see someone properly explain how Lucifer wins since in Neil Gaiman's own Books of Magic, Death is shown to be the last being in existence in the universe...so where does Lucifer come in? Obviously he had to have met his end somewhere. It's not like it's impossible for him to die. So someone, please enlighten me, where is the flaw in my logic? Do I come at this from the wrong angle, maybe? "
Lucifer had left his multiverse in the end. He meets the Presensce, decides he doesn't want to "fuse" with his father, and fllys off into the Void.He also meets some being that claims he's continued living even after the universe is over. So Lucifer had left creation(whether the creature that talked to Lucifer was DEath or something is unknown to me.) It's unknown as to what happens to him, but I just have a feeling he didn't die.
"I love both these characters but I really couldn't care less who would "win"...however, I do see the same arguments over and over and want to see someone properly explain how Lucifer wins since in Neil Gaiman's own Books of Magic, Death is shown to be the last being in existence in the universe...so where does Lucifer come in? Obviously he had to have met his end somewhere. It's not like it's impossible for him to die. So someone, please enlighten me, where is the flaw in my logic? Do I come at this from the wrong angle, maybe? "
Lucifer had left his multiverse in the end. He meets the Presensce, decides he doesn't want to "fuse" with his father, and fllys off into the Void.He also meets some being that claims he's continued living even after the universe is over. So Lucifer had left creation(whether the creature that talked to Lucifer was DEath or something is unknown to me.) It's unknown as to what happens to him, but I just have a feeling he didn't die. "
Aztek is the premium expert on Lucifer not only here, but everywhere, I think the analysis was rather unnecessary. LOL.
" okay, this is where things start to get over my head, I'm not going to lie, I'm a one universe kind of guy, it's why i avoid crossovers...too many combining universes in any form befuddles me...either way I am happy with your explanation and will stop using the same point every time this thread pops up :P "
"I love both these characters but I really couldn't care less who would "win"...however, I do see the same arguments over and over and want to see someone properly explain how Lucifer wins since in Neil Gaiman's own Books of Magic, Death is shown to be the last being in existence in the universe...so where does Lucifer come in? Obviously he had to have met his end somewhere. It's not like it's impossible for him to die. So someone, please enlighten me, where is the flaw in my logic? Do I come at this from the wrong angle, maybe? "
Lucifer had left his multiverse in the end. He meets the Presensce, decides he doesn't want to "fuse" with his father, and fllys off into the Void.He also meets some being that claims he's continued living even after the universe is over. So Lucifer had left creation(whether the creature that talked to Lucifer was DEath or something is unknown to me.) It's unknown as to what happens to him, but I just have a feeling he didn't die. "
Aztek is the premium expert on Lucifer not only here, but everywhere, I think the analysis was rather unnecessary. LOL. "
Oh. Well now I know, and knowing is half the battle. :P
" The Sandman comics have shown that Angels, Demons, etc (including Lucifer) belong to a lesser order of beings than The Endless or The Kindly Ones. In a fight though it depends on other factors than speed, strength, power etc. It depends entirely on the fates of the two, and that depends on a host of other factors completely unrelated to the fight itself, factors that might have been decided centuries before the two ever meet up to fight.
So...
Lucifer Wins
(if he is fated to)
or
Death Wins
(if she is fated to) "
This is very simple to explain. Lucifer is the second most-powerful being in creation. The most powerful being in creation was God, now Elaine Belloc. There is no middle ground. Lucifer wins. The Kindly Ones are below the Endless. Dream stated that Lucifer could destroy him if he wanted to. Your arguments make no sense. "
In the current order of the christian gods would dictate that Lucifer would win because he as God himself are both immortal and not subject to Death. There is a really good novel series by Piers Anthony that dealt with the offices of the Immortals. The first book is call On a Pale Horse. The Incarnations of Immortality. Good Stuff!
" @GamorasBigDaddy: They said he was the 3rd most powerful begin in the universe, next too Michael and God. "
Nobody ever said that.
However, he has been referred to as "probably the most powerful being there is, next to his creator" during the Season of Mists arc in Sandman, by Dream. Whether it is true or not is up for anyone to judge.
" @GamorasBigDaddy: They said he was the 3rd most powerful begin in the universe, next too Michael and God. "
Nobody ever said that.
However, he has been referred to as "probably the most powerful being there is, next to his creator" during the Season of Mists arc in Sandman, by Dream. Whether it is true or not is up for anyone to judge. "
Michael is God's second-in-command and was the one who kicked Lucifer out of Heaven. That mask him more powerful, it's just that Lucifer doesn't follow the same rules and is smarter then Michael.
" @GamorasBigDaddy: They said he was the 3rd most powerful begin in the universe, next too Michael and God. "
Nobody ever said that.
However, he has been referred to as "probably the most powerful being there is, next to his creator" during the Season of Mists arc in Sandman, by Dream. Whether it is true or not is up for anyone to judge. "
Michael is God's second-in-command and was the one who kicked Lucifer out of Heaven. That mask him more powerful, it's just that Lucifer doesn't follow the same rules and is smarter then Michael. "
Stature does not mean anything. Especially when you are second when no one is third.
Lucifer wasn't kicked out of Heaven. The Presence gave him dominion over Hell (the most distant place from the Primum Mobile), and he agreed to stop the war and depart.
@Morpheus_: Stature means everything to these people, Lucifer was kicked out of Heaven and the Presence only aloud Lucifer to rule over Hell with the first, second and third of the fallen.
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