Darth Plagueis runs the 2v1 gauntlet

Darth Plagueis

Rules:

• Characters in their prime unless otherwise stated.
• Win by any means.
• Random encounters.
• Standard gear.
• They start 50 feet apart.
• Fight takes place here:

Gauntet:

1. Quinlon Vos and Tholme
2. Kit Fisto and Plo Koon
3. Darth Mauland Savage Opress
4. Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma(With Gauntlets)
5. Count Dooku and General Greivous
6. Darth Vader and Starkiller
7. Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi
8. Revan and Darth Malak
9. Darth Traya and Meetra Surik
10. Hero of Tython and Vitiate
11. Darth Sidious(TPM) and Darth Maul

Probably stops at 11

Stops at 10.

They don't have speed feats to compete.

I would say makes it to 11. Round 8 could be an issue but Hego probably just blitzes to get by Revan and Malak.

I don't think it matters. 50 feet away is enough time for Vitiate and HoT to combine their power and wreck Plageuis with the Force.

@dccomicsrule2011: How are they going to wreck him with the Force, and why can't someone who can make an entire forest light up in lightning while engaging in a lightsaber duel not cover a comparatively trivial 50 foot sprint to hug Vitiate with his lightsaber?

@i_like_swords said:

Vitiate alone is around, if not above Plagueis level in terms of Force power IMO, I rank him a tad bit above Plagueis. HoT together is enough for them to possibly win via Force stompage. As for speed, Vitiate is fast enough not to be blitz by Plagueis.

@dccomicsrule2011: I don't see how HoT's presence contributes to them being able to, in synergy, wreck Plagueis somehow. And Vitiate requires the slightest amount of preparation to gather his energies to boot.

Why wouldn't he be blitzed?

Done at 11.

He is still faster than Vitiate and Hero combined, he can blitz Vitiate and stomp Hero with the force.

@i_like_swords:

I don't see how HoT's presence contributes to them being able to, in synergy, wreck Plagueis somehow.

Because his raw power is on the level of Revan Reborn? Vitiate alone is on the exact tier as Plagueis (let's just say 9) adding an 8-8.5 would make a difference.

And Vitiate requires the slightest amount of preparation to gather his energies to boot.

So?

Why wouldn't he be blitzed?

Because his speed feats are good enough not to? Vitiate speed feats are on the level of Reborn Revan in the Revan novel (who himself is rivaling the likes of Maul and Anakin speed level), and I'm more than sure Vitiate powers grew after that encounter. That alone should prevent a speed blitz.

@dccomicsrule2011:

Because his raw power is on the level of Revan Reborn? Vitiate alone is on the exact tier as Plagueis (let's just say 9) adding an 8-8.5 would make a difference.

Since when did HoT get that powerful? From my discussions with Nova the best I got was implied power and ambiguous accolades.

So?

Plagueis can sprint 50 feet in a straight line before Vitiate actually prepares an attack.

Because his speed feats are good enough not to? Vitiate speed feats are on the level of Reborn Revan in the Revan novel (who himself is rivaling the likes of Maul and Anakin speed level), and I'm more than sure Vitiate powers grew after that encounter. That alone should prevent a speed blitz.

Plagueis's speed class is sufficient to move faster than someone like Maul or Anakin can see - combine that with the fact the feat you're referencing for Vitiate's speed was on a powerful nexus, and Vitiate has no defence against a saber.. not looking good for scroteface.

stops at 7

Plagueis isn't faster than Anakin or Maul can see, that's ridiculous.

You could argue he isn't based off of showings. I base it off of the fact Palpatine prior to TPM being where he acquired the ability to rival Plagueis's power, was able to move faster than Maul can see. And the fact Luceno believes Plagueis could beat Palpatine at that time implies to me that Plagueis would be of his speed class.

@i_like_swords: You can be more powerful without being faster. Vader is an excellent example. And you don't have to be as fast as someone to beat them either.

@i_like_swords:

Since when did HoT get that powerful? From my discussions with Nova the best I got was implied power and ambiguous accolades.

Ehh.

When discussing the top 10 Jedi rank, Nova and I came to the conclusion that HoT was on Kyp Durron and Revan level in terms of raw power. I don't actually play TOR game (not yet at least, I do plan too though) so all my knowledge on the game comes from my conversations with users on the Vine and the little information I get from the Tie-end novels and such.

Plagueis can sprint 50 feet in a straight line before Vitiate actually prepares an attack.

I'm still not convinced he could blitz, not yet at least.

Plagueis's speed class is sufficient to move faster than someone like Maul or Anakin can see

Based on what? Plagueis has never moved faster than any worth while Force sensitive can perceive. Even 11-4D saw a blur of him, and he's nowhere near Maul or Anakin in terms of overall speed and perception. It can be implied he has such speed because Palpatine, during that time period, was fast enough to out-pace Maul, but just being more power than someone in the Force doesn't make you just as fast as them, otherwise we wouldn't be debating speed blitz here.

combine that with the fact the feat you're referencing for Vitiate's speed was on a powerful nexus

Fair enough. Though Vitiate powers grew by a decent amount since that encounter, IIRC. Plus, there is no way to know for sure how much Vitiate was amped in that environment since that was one of his very few definitive speed feats we have for him...so we can't say for sure it's too far beyond his normal capabilities.

Vitiate has no defence against a saber.. not looking good for scroteface.

LAL.

@lamlam: Force augmentation correlates to power directly. Plagueis and Sidious are both practised hands at augmenting their speed, so I don't think it's too crazy to assume they equivalent Force speed when their power is equal. And the fact Plagueis was more powerful than Sidious when the latter was moving faster than Maul can see only reinforces my theory.

Vader is a bad example because agility and mobility are his main issues, not combative, reactive and perceptive speeds. I wouldn't put him below Maul and even if he is, his suit would be the primary factor, not his own ability.

@dccomicsrule2011:

Ehh.

When discussing the top 10 Jedi rank, Nova and I came to the conclusion that HoT was on Kyp Durron and Revan level in terms of raw power. I don't actually play TOR game (not yet at least, I do plan too though) so all my knowledge on the game comes from my conversations with users on the Vine and the little information I get from the Tie-end novels and such.

HoT's power placement stems from the idea that because Vitiate didn't dominate him with the Force in their fight, he must be powerful enough to resist him. His fight with Vitiate appears to be very circumstantial, though, so I don't throw my weight into it one way or the other.

Based on what? Plagueis has never moved faster than any worth while Force sensitive can perceive. Even 11-4D saw a blur of him

Just because something hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't. If we're going to use the logic you've used at the end, then Kit Fisto can't appear as invisible to non-Force users. Or every time someone appears as a blur then this indicates that is their top speed (including people like Anakin, Maul, Kenobi and anyone who has only made a blur of themselves). Even Sidious only produced a "blur" at one point in Darth Plagueis, yet in that same time frame he's moved faster than Maul can see.

It can be implied he has such speed because Palpatine, during that time period, was fast enough to out-pace Maul, but just being more power than someone in the Force doesn't make you just as fast as them, otherwise we wouldn't be debating speed blitz here.

I know, that's why I'm not claiming my interpretation is fact - but to me, Plagueis having a very similar ability set to Palpatine (incredible Force augmentation, lightsaber mastery, frequent usage of the lightsaber in combat, ect), and being more powerful than him at a time in which Palpatine could essentially blitz Maul, suggests he's of at least an equal speed class. Like, I find the idea of Sidious being faster than Plaguies, after Plagueis is presented as Palpatine's clear superior, as well as physical powerhouse in his own right, silly. I know arguing "well what is there to suggest Sidious is faster than Plagueis" is fallacious, but I think if Sidious really was noticeably faster Luceno would have made a point of it.

Outside of that I agree, his feats aren't enough to blitz Vitiate. Probably.

Fair enough. Though Vitiate powers grew by a decent amount since that encounter, IIRC. Plus, there is no way to know for sure how much Vitiate was amped in that environment since that was one of his very few definitive speed feats we have for him...so we can't say for sure it's too far beyond his normal capabilities.

Well he was definitely amped, the planet they were on alone was a nexus IIRC, Vitiate's chamber was a focal point of dark power to boot from what I remember. If Vitiate did grow in power substantially after this then I suppose you have a case.

Definitely doesn't clear and stops at 11, but the question is essentially whether he can blitz Vitiate. If he can't, he should lose round 10.

This is also fairly out of order. I would put Obi-Wan/Anakin above Exile/Traya etc, partly because of their amazing synergy.

In that case, Vitiate's Force power, which honestly exceeds either of theirs or is at least in a similar class at the time, would be enough for him to gain very similar levels of speed, despite never showing such speed feats. Still, he literally manages to stand in front of HoT and his/her lightsaber in the cutscene prior to their duel, and we do know that they actually fought and eventually Vitiate was seen a moderate distance away from him. So that is an impressive level of speed if you want to interpret it that way.

@shootingnova:

The problem is we at least have some level of comparison for Plagueis - him and Palpatine's approach to the Force is very similar, in that they are both highly physical fighters (when they want to be) who show a tremendous aptitude for Force augmentation within their lightsaber combat. Vitiate on the other hand just doesn't... he isn't shown to be as fast as Palpatine and Plagueis, not because he isn't powerful enough to reach that level of augmentation, but because his combative focus appears to be elsewhere.

It's hard to explain what I mean, but a good way to describe it would be comparing Caedus and Kyp. Comparable in raw power, but Kyp hasn't shown nearly as much aptitude for Force speed as Caedus.

I believe Plagueis would blitz the Hero as well, so I'm not sure if even that feat would be enough.

@i_like_swords: Well, Kyp has never been forced to exercise Force speed to insane levels. The most was deflecting fire from Class 720 freighters years before his prime. So where he stands exactly isn't entirely confirmed, but I see your point. Palpatine and Plagueis are much more physically-oriented than Vitiate, who obviously doesn't see the value in physical practices. But there are plenty of other powerful Force users who do make use of physical ability (Traya, Malak, etc.) who haven't really got any speed feats, partly because they belong to video games but whatever.

@merulezall: Why is that?

Stops at 11

@baztet: Oh you know why, Obi won never loses when he has the high or low ground. All he has to do is make it to that timber stack and he wins Lmao.

^ this.

Speed Blitz is a lame counter when many Jedi have precog anyway, or can slow time perception by drawing on the force anyway. Perfect sxample is Kit Fisto and Ventress were describe as a Blur to Obi Wan Kenobi.

You think Kit or Ventress are blitzing or even faster than him!? Really?

This is Star Wars, not Dragon Ball Z :/

@i_like_swords: No it doesn't. Force speed is an aspect of the Force. Your expertise at it depends on your mastery of it. That is a double standard on your part also, as you say Plagueis would blitz Vitiate, whose power in the Force definitely rivals Plagueis'. If what you say is true, Vitiate would be almost as fast as Plagueis. And Maul was generating afterimages of himself when he fougth Vader whereas Vader wasn't, which is a very clear implication that Maul was faster than Vader despite Vader being more powerful.

He stomps 1 and 2.
Has little difficulty with 3 and 8.
Beats 4, 5, 6, 7, 9 and 10 with some difficulty on his part.
And he stops at 11.

@merulezall: LOL!

Okay.. third attempt at actually posting this without a glitch.

*sigh*

This is what I was trying to convey to Nova. Yes, both are correct. You need to have expertise in Force speed in order to use it well, as it is it's own power. And to reach a certain level you need a certain level of power.

The difference between Plagueis and Vitiate is that Plagueis is clearly an expert in Force augmentation, whereas Vitiate isn't - he's focused far less on physical practices.

At the same time however I see your point about less powerful FU's being able to move faster than more powerful opponents. This ties in to the fact they specialize in that power. Which is just my point, really. Plagueis has both the expertise and the power in Force augmentation in order to match Sidious's speed, we have Luceno telling us that they would be able to have a close enough fight for Plagueis to potentially win, and frankly it just seems silly that Plagueis would be noticeably slower than Sidious.

I know it's easy enough for you to just say that "you can be more powerful without being faster" but I feel that Plagueis being more powerful than Palpatine at a time where he could blitz Maul makes it safe enough to assume that if he put enough effort into his Force speed - which he can when he wants to - he could match his weaker apprentice.

He wouldn't get past Anakin and Obi

@i_like_swords: Well, technically, it's only Luceno's opinion that Plagueis would beat Palpatine, not absolute canon. Sources have told us that Palpatine learnt and matched Plagueis before killing him.

@shootingnova: I'm aware.

@i_like_swords: And to reach a certain level you need a certain level of power.

Proof?

The difference between Plagueis and Vitiate is that Plagueis is clearly an expert in Force augmentation, whereas Vitiate isn't - he's focused far less on physical practices.

Proof?

I feel that Plagueis being more powerful than Palpatine at a time where he could blitz Maul makes it safe enough to assume that if he put enough effort into his Force speed - which he can when he wants to - he could match his weaker apprentice.

What you feel isn't relevant, unless a fair case has been constructed. Your argument that Plagueis is as fast as Palpatine just because he was more powerful overall needs to be stronger before it can be considered fair, even if not entirely factual. The reason your argument needs to be stronger? Because there are actual examples in-universe disproving it.

@lamlam: Where is the proof that Vitiate does augment his physical stats? All I've seen him do are rituals, FLS, lightning and sorcery. He doesn't seem to be much of a combatant at all, he's basically solely a spellcaster.

Show me one good physical feat OR speed feat for him and I'll piss off.

Stops at 11.

@mije_101: Never said he does, bro. Simply asked for proof that he doesn't.