Darth Maul vs. Shaak Ti

Dude whatever, if you're going to overhype maul that's your business however don't come with these bullshit second hand claims that may or may not have been said and that you can't source. If you can site it than by all means provide a SS, otherwise that statement is without a doubt the biggest load in the entire EU.

please provide info on maul never beating grievous without "cheapshotting" him or catching him off guard. force pushing him off the cliff was nothing more than he didn't want to waste his time. there were bigger fish to fry - a bigger agenda to attend to.

i like ventress a lot. i think she is grossly underappreciated, but she can't beat maul. i'm not really sure what you mean by "a ventress level GRIEVOUS."

@kbroskywalker the only time i mentioned you was in my second item:

"2) Using kbro's example of Skywalker defeating Tyranus because of rage is a good example to use for Maul beating Ti. His rage is almost ever present and he uses it to become stronger, which is one of the benefits of being a dark side wielder."

i thought you made a good point. i didn't say you said anything about G and M.

@redheathen: I knew we would meet again, how are you? Still arguing about Maul I see.

On topic: I happen to like shaak quite a bit tbh, but mauls got this, relatively convincingly. Though if someone wants to make the case for Shaak I am interested. (Assuming SoD Maul of course)

Unfortunately, I can't leave this topic alone, lol. :D Good to see you here. ;)

@redheathen: You as well my friend, It seems you and kbro have gotten into it, I will be interested to see the outcome of this.....

@redheathen:

My bad, I misread your post, I thought you said maul beat grevious, you are right, maul did not lose to grevious, there fight was inconclusive.

"2) Using kbro's example of Skywalker defeating Tyranus because of rage is a good example to use for Maul beating Ti. His rage is almost ever present and he uses it to become stronger, which is one of the benefits of being a dark side wielder."

No it isn't, Anakin's rage amp was circumstantially induced(though he was beating dooku before) by kenobi being taken out. Maul doesn't have any thing to make him enraged here.

Force wise, Ti was able to send felucia marek flying with a force blast. Felucia Marek at this time was capable of completely disintergrating one of the largest sarlaccs in the galaxy with his force repluse. Ti while fighting marek was able to simultaenously control all the life on felucia. Shaak Ti over time turned the darkside corrupted world of felucia into a lightside nexus and her death resulted in the planet almost immediately becoming corrupt again.

That being said I'm favoring maul now because felucia marek isn't that good of a duelist...

@kbroskywalker: Fair enough, Maul being the superior duelist is relatively clear in my mind tbh.

However you and @redheathen carry on, don't let me get in the way.

LOL Nothing new there.

Maul is the one force user I've done a lot of research on mostly because people don't really know him, so I spent time reading his books, comics, etc. to set the record straight. He isn't my favorite character, though.

The Clone Wars and Galactic Empire eras are what I know most about in SW, but I've been trying to expand from them, slowly but surely.

NP and Thank you. :)

I was thinking of Anakin and Obi-Wan on planet Tythe in the ROTS novelization. Anakin brings the ceiling down in this.... lol I can't remember what it was... a big building... when he yells at Tyranus. Please let me know if I need to look up the type of building.

I still think he would have been able to beat Tyranus with or without being angry. Well, being angry really did help, lol.

"My powers have doubled."

"Good. Twice the pride, double the fall."

^^^ #FamousLastWords

@redheathen:

I still think he would have been able to beat Tyranus with or without being angry.

Yes, but the rage amp that helped him virtually stomp dooku is not something he or maul for that matter can just do at will.

I was thinking of Anakin and Obi-Wan on planet Tythe in the ROTS novelization

Tythe wasn't in the rots novel, ar eyou thinking loe?

Yea, relooking things, marek didn't really do anything all that impressive as a duelist prior to felucia. I'd put contending with tcw kenobi above losing unluckily to pre prime marek. This battle will almost certainly be decided via sabers so maul should take it. Though I'd favor ti in a force only fight.

(banging head on wall) yesssssssssss.... LoE.... lol I have read a lot of books lately and reread ones that I read long ago. All the information is kind of melding together. Thanks for the correction.

Would you help me with this, please? Rage is always just under the surface for Maul and Vader (using Vader only as an example). Sidious talks about being able to call on Anger and Rage at will, and these two seem to be able to do that. I would like to learn otherwise, though? I can understand Anakin not being able to call on it at will, but the two Sith I just mentioned seem mostly to have it at their disposal. I am not trying to argue with you - just learn.

Apologies for the multiple posts instead of just making one.

It's hard for me to argue the game characters because I don't play the games, so I'm at a complete loss with them. In the EU, we do have Sidious talking about Maul being very powerful in the Force, but that's the best I can do. I know that there is a TFU novel, does that help to know the powers of the characters in the game, or do you need to play the game to really know?

@redheathen: darksiders are given power by their anger, but thats part of their standard power level. However circumstantial factors amp to a power level which they can't reach on their own(At least not normally).

@erkan12: ooh, lowballing contest again?

Alrighty, here we go(5:50):

5:50-5:52

Hondo shoots maul three times taking his leg off the third time. Maul clearly sucks at blaster deflection, a basic skill for lightsaber wielders, tcw ahsoka on the other hand has deflected blaster fire from hondo, clearly tcw ahsoka>maul

@kbroskywalker:

You know who didn't get shot by Hondo?

Jar Jar Binks.

Binks > Maul confirmed!

@emperor339: binks>all sith ever combined

@kbroskywalker:

The novel you're trying to use to contradict dooku draining himself says dooku used "the last burst of dark power" before it was just him and anakin

"he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick that brought his heel against the point of Kenobi's chin with a crack like the report of a huge-bore slugthrower, knocking the Jedi Master back down the stairs. Sounded like he'd broken his neck."

Granted in the novel dooku doesn't use this up using the force vs kenobi but in the novel he also never ragdolls kenobi and only takes out kenobi by sliding him across the floor when he was "bonelessly limp"

And the novel also features a partially hindered kenobi deflecting force blasts from a hindered anakin who as of rots was "vastly improved" from his tcw self, its still a clear improvement from being force blasted by ventress.

This is why you need context. It was his last burst of dark power - the same dark power that he was channeling to enhance his kicks. It wasn't the last of his reserves, since he TK's Obi-Wan immediately afterwards. Not to mention that he was already exhausted from Anakin at this point, so your point's moot either way.

Obi-Wan deflecting telekinetic blasts from Anakin is very good but hardly means that he could exhaust Dooku.

And in the junior novel kenobi was potentially going to counter but dooku's use of the force was too sudden and his ability to take kenobi out was due to how quickly he used the force, not due to kenobi being too weak force wise to defend himself.

The attack being too sudden doesn't preclude the possibility of Dooku ragdolling him through a power disparity nevertheless.

that doesn't mean dooku wasn't drained using the force vs kenobi, dooku "washing away his fatigue" is not at all contradicted by the movie.

Yes, it is. Right after he TK's Obi-Wan, Dooku gets kicked off the balcony, then Anakin clashes with him and Dooku stalemates him in a bladelock for thirteen seconds. He obviously didn't exhaust his power.

@shootingnova:

This is why you need context. It was his last burst of dark power - the same dark power that he was channeling to enhance his kicks. It wasn't the last of his reserves, since he TK's Obi-Wan immediately afterwards. Not to mention that he was already exhausted from Anakin at this point, so your point's moot either way.

Dooku in this version, simply pushes kenobi across the floor after he was made "Bonelessly limp" with a kick, dooku never ragdolls kenobi here.

The sources where kenobi is ragdolled are the movie and the junior novel.

In the junior novel Kenobi is thrown before he sets up his active force defenses are set up, "Kenobi reached to counter with the force it was too sudden".

Now for the movie(I don;t know how to make gifs so I've just set it to start at when dooku throws kenobi)

Dooku throws kenobi at 1:49. Dooku then brings down the platform at 1:57, 7 seconds later, ample time for dooku to regain his energy(or "wash away his fatigue"). Dooku then has 4 seconds untill getting charged by anakin. Furthermore the movie won't(due to time constraints) show details other sources would include, like anakin beating dooku before a rage amp, or that dooku was getting overwhelmed by dueling both of them at the same time. The movie isn't contradicting anything here, its simply not elaborating/including the kind of details that the sw movies don't show(such as a force user expending energy to use the force vs another one, a force user deflecting force attacks).

@kbroskywalker:

Dooku in this version, simply pushes kenobi across the floor after he was made "Bonelessly limp" with a kick, dooku never ragdolls kenobi here.

I know he doesn't ragdoll. That was part of my point.

In the junior novel Kenobi is thrown before he sets up his active force defenses are set up, "Kenobi reached to counter with the force it was too sudden".

I already addressed this. Keep up.

Dooku throws kenobi at 1:49. Dooku then brings down the platform at 1:57, 7 seconds later, ample time for dooku to regain his energy(or "wash away his fatigue"). Dooku then has 4 seconds untill getting charged by anakin.

The movie doesn't imply that Dooku was regaining his energy. Besides, he was kicked off the balcony immediately, and engaged in a saberlock with Anakin immediately. There was no time. Either way, your source's claim about Dooku being helpless against Skywalker's rage because of that is also blatantly contradicted, which still damages the source's credibility.

Furthermore the movie won't(due to time constraints) show details other sources would include, like anakin beating dooku before a rage amp, or that dooku was getting overwhelmed by dueling both of them at the same time. The movie isn't contradicting anything here, its simply not elaborating/including the kind of details that the sw movies don't show(such as a force user expending energy to use the force vs another one, a force user deflecting force attacks).

The movies do show Anakin being enraged, but either way, it's clear that Dooku had a lot of fight left in him after disposing of Obi-Wan.

I know he doesn't ragdoll. That was part of my point.

And my point was that per the novel dooku can recover from being drained/tired which is commonplace in star wars(as it is with real life)

I already addressed this. Keep up.

You're not addressing what I'm saying, Kenobi never gets the chance to counter or defend vs the attack, so this doesn't preclude dooku draining himself to overwhelm kenobi's defense.

The movie doesn't imply that Dooku was regaining his energy.

Because the movie doesn't show that level of detail

Besides, he was kicked off the balcony immediately, and engaged in a saberlock with Anakin immediately.

He was not kicked off immediately after throwing kenobi. Also engaging in a bladelock isn't really proof that dooku wasn't tired.

Dooku being helpless against Skywalker's rage because of that is also blatantly contradicted, which still damages the source's credibility.

Dooku was being driven back for the brief time before the bladelock, and than quickly lost after he used dun moch on anakin, Dooku being incapable of beating anakin at that point(aka being helpless) isn't contradicted at all. And the novel says dooku ahd to use dun moch because he was losing badly.

The movies do show Anakin being enraged

I never said they didn't, I said they never showed dookus truggling vs anakin's speed/strength prior to being enraged or him being desperate when facing both anakin+kenobi.

@erkan12:

Like Savage's Force wave on Anakin and Obi-Wan ?

Circumstantial as has been pointed out to you numerous times

No. Did they get hurt by it ?

Was kenobi trying to hurt them? No. He pushed them back so he had space to go to hondo who had called him over.

from the brothers where he was losing the duel.

Before he focused himself and dealt with both using a secondary style with iffy enviromental aid(as a cramped space should hinder ataru far more than juyo/djem so users fighting on opposite ends)

shaak ti stomps

@kbroskywalker: actually Maul's particular brand of Juyo would be hindered in tight spaces, his acrobats would be harder to preform and using the force there might cause the tunnel to collapse if he wasn't careful. His powerful strikes are also hindered because he can't move as fast.

The more you know

@hypnos0929: no, maul's style is far more linear than kenobi's or most people's ataru, ataru is the most acrobatic form

@kbroskywalker: It really isn't, he uses Acrobatics to disorient his enemies and keep them on the defensive. Have you ever seen Maul fight without acrobatics? Because he almost never does. Even though him and Mace Windu use form 7 they have different styles because form 7 has to be made of at least 2 other styles. In a tight environment Maul's particular brand keeps him from moving as fast or striking as hard. Where as Kenobi wouldn't be as limited.

@kbroskywalker: Shaak Ti is going to die like this.

Bit more of a old republic guy myself, although I think I may say without overstating the case that I have quite a bit of PT/OT knowledge myself, the Post RoTJ Era however I know extremely little about.

I don't know which part you're referring to, you can see Filoni's statements about the duel in here ;

http://www.starwars.com/video/wrath-of-the-sith

''Savage puts up a better fight than the Jedi Council did.''

''Quite the best lightsaber fight we done in the series.''

He litterally says "probably the best lightsaber fight we've done in the series " hell the context in which he used it seemed all opinionated and it's not even praising maul moreso savage as a character "one thing I can say is Savage puts up a better fight than the jedi counsel". "being taken out by sidious is up there"

Sidious litterally comes in laughing toying with them the whole time, suggesting it happened any other way than what was shown is inaccurate. Not even a valid feat for maul tbh.

lol CosmicLantern seems to consistently throw that "you overhype Maul" mud on any Maul post he can without paying attention to fact, and as to erkan12, well done.

I just watched the video and am really glad to find it. I wish I knew how to download it or find it elsewhere on the internet in preparation of it eventually being deleted from the SW site. I can't find it anywhere; not even on WBTM.

@hypnos0929:

I have seen maul fight, before they were in the tunnel, maul wasn't being remotely acrobatic, vs kenobi is season 4, he wasn't acrobatic, in tpm there was little to no acrobatics from him, ataru is the most arobatic form and usualy requires extensive flipping and jumping, juyp does not.

@yousufkhan1212 said:

@kbroskywalker: Shaak Ti is going to die like this.

Never use micheal bay, like ever

You're a notorious maul highballer yourself actually, wouldn't be surprised if you said anything else. That statement isn't praising maul in the manor either of you are suggesting which is quite hilarious. It's as if people lose all form of logical comprehension when they review these statements and take them completely over board like you're doing now.

First off it isn't lowballing to say that oppress outperforming the jedi council was circumstnatial, oppress is not>fisto+tiin+kolar, sidious was toying per multiple sources with the brothers the whole time, including after he killed oppress when maul got rage amped(to an extent he wouldn't be capable of on his own). Second off, its not an indicative showing for maul or oppress because how well they fared had to do with how well sidious allowed them to fare. This isn't a slight against the two as the same would be true of say shaak ti, kenobi, or even folks like mace windu unamped. Sidious is just so well above all these combatants that he can end a fight against them when he wants and sidious was never going all out in the fight. Remember sidious can move faster than a non amped mace windu can react and is a match for folks like yoda who has easily avoided ti+beliba+koon without a saber without moving more than a millimeter for several minuites. Its not that maul or oppress are weak, its that sidious is that good.

@kbroskywalker said:

@yousufkhan1212 said:

@kbroskywalker: Shaak Ti is going to die like this.

Never use micheal bay, like ever

Michael Bay > Dave Filoni > RD 2D

@yousufkhan1212 said:

@kbroskywalker said:

@yousufkhan1212 said:

@kbroskywalker: Shaak Ti is going to die like this.

Never use micheal bay, like ever

Michael Bay > Dave Filoni > RD 2D

blasphemer

@kbroskywalker said:

@yousufkhan1212 said:

@kbroskywalker said:

@yousufkhan1212 said:

@kbroskywalker: Shaak Ti is going to die like this.

Never use micheal bay, like ever

Michael Bay > Dave Filoni > RD 2D

blasphemer

Michael Bay stomps both Dave Filoni and R2 RD via explosions...

@themuser: bioware screwed up the old republic

@kbroskywalker: How so?

@themuser: screwed up revan completely(unforgivable in my book), made this stupid enternal throne subplot, completely mischaracterized the lightside and darkside, completely lie about the "choose your own path"(you don't get to choose crap), making old republic fanboys think valk is the most powerful thing ever, interuupting what stwor should have been about(the protaginist vs valkorian) for this "we are above the light and darkside empire" crap ect.

But its nothing to compared to what disney's done...

@kbroskywalker: I can definitely see where you are coming from, However this probably isn't a good thread to discuss it in.

@themuser: True

i have never stated anything that isn't backed up by something in print. i did overstep once when i used a reference from the SWT story Nameless, but the story turns out to be canon. that said, i still think i overstepped, and i admitted to it. otherwise, please tell me where i've highballed him. i'm happy to address it. if i'm willing to calmly address any mistake i might have made, then why are you not willing to politely point them out?

@redheathen: This quote:

''Savage puts up a better fight than the Jedi Council did.''

Does not mean oppress is> the three jedi sidious instantly killed. Sidious was toying with oppress, hence he put up a better fight.

1)

I think you make good points except I do disagree a bit with you saying that it is not indicative of how well Maul and Savage fared against Sidious. I'll explain by pasting a comment I left on another thread, which is linked here as well:

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/star-wars-universe-1943200/darth-sidious-vs-darth-maul-and-savage-opress-what-1757667/?page=2

I don't agree that Dave Filoni's (DF) argument is non-sequitor.

DF is making a point that Savage was a force to contend with once you put his statement *into context*, which is what is most important. He told us that Lucas wanted characters who weren't in the movies to die.

The fact that the Jedi Council members died so quickly had little to do with them not being able to put up a good fight. That was a statement showing us how good Sidious is. It is not about their inabilities to perform well in dueling/ battle because we know that they are exceptional fighters and force wielders.

So what we are given when DF says that Savage lasted longer is indeed a statement of how good he was once you put it into appropriate context. Outside that context is when you end up with the false logic of non-sequitur.

Of course, I could be wrong and could have misunderstood what DF was saying.

=====================================================

2)

We know that Maul mastered Ataru as well as Niman and Juyo, along with many other varied combat forms. We don't know what all he knew, but we know that Sidious trained him intensely since he was a child, even while he was at Orsis. He would have had to master at least 2 other forms in order to master Juyo, but Juyo is not "made of" at least 2 other styles. It is its own style and unlike the others.

Maul mostly uses Juyo to fight Jinn and Kenobi, which was retconned. After being cut in half, my personal opinion is that Maul most likely wouldn't use Ataru acrobatics because of his mechanical legs, but I think he would have been capable of it, although I think it would have been more tiring to use them for long. It would be really awkward for him, or I think it would have been.

Mace uses a variation of Juyo called Vaapad that he and Borq created. He deflects and redirects Dark Side power (? I can't think of the right term) back to the opponent, if I remember correctly. I'm open to a different understanding on any of the things I've said. Thanks

@redheathen:

1)Source for maul mastering ataru? Also, its not really relevant since maul was not using ataru and has never used ataru in tcw. The way kenobi was fighting in the tunnel was more acrobatic than anything we've seen from Maul.

Mace's style feeds on his own darkness irc, @shootingnova likely knows this, but ea mace's vapaad is a variation of juyo.

Maul mostly uses Juyo to fight Jinn and Kenobi, which was retconned.

It was never retconned

So what we are given when DF says that Savage lasted longer is indeed a statement of how good he was once you put it into appropriate context. Outside that context is when you end up with the false logic of non-sequitur.

Of course, I could be wrong and could have misunderstood what DF was saying.

If given the right context anyone can outperform anyone, That fight isn't at all a good indication of oppress's ability because sidious, as he can with virtually any oppoent, end the fight when he wants menaing the fight lasted or oppress fared as well as sidious wanted or allowed him to.

@kbroskywalker: There is a sentence from Lockdown that shows Maul using Ataru, but nothing said he mastered it.