Darth Maul runs the Star Wars Gauntlet

@erkan12: Yes, I do. TPM Maul has kicked into people's torsos and punched through wampas while injured. What physical feat does TCW Maul have that outclasses TPM Maul's? And I maintain what I said about speed.

All you have is an impractical and out-of-context statement from a character who was completely ignorant on one party. So no, you do not have any evidence.

The Jedi were pushed back, and that was a casual TK push. Not that it matters, considering Anakin has rivaling or even superior telekinetic feats than Dooku anyways, so I would hardly expect him to be beaten by TK.

Defeating force combat master Bruu Jun Fan. Defeating Pre Vizsla's weaponry without using TK. Defeating Savage Opress physically. Stalemate in lightsaber duel with RotS (TCW though but very close that timeline) Obi-Wan Kenobi.

I am talking about this, Dooku throwing troopers while force sensitive Obi-Wan and Anakin didn't affected much.

And Anakin can't match with Dooku or TCW Maul. He stalemated with Obi-Wan.

He did nothing to impress me. TPM Maul outmatched Anoon Bondara, whose own technical skills, knowledge and accolades are above Jun Fan.

How is this a strength feat? And Vizsla's attacks were mostly one-time, and not all of them went unfelt by Maul. At least one of them, to my memory, actually hit Maul.

I love how you think grabbing a brutish and sloppy character's hand, and then using mechanical legs to pin him to the floor would matter. TPM Maul punching through a wampa is at least as good.

So what? TPM Maul outfought Anoon Bondara, outfought Darsha Assant, drove off Qui-Gon Jinn with an injured leg, held the advantage over both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan at once, outfought a Kenobi who was amped by Force Rage, etc.

And this is TCW Kenobi, not RotS Kenobi. RotS is his prime. TCW Obi-Wan would have been very close, but not quite there yet.

Not to mention receiving accolades for being one of the most skilled Sith in history, and descriptions from Sidious such as "nonpareil" lightsaber skills, etc. (yes, I'm aware this is fluff, but TCW Maul never really received anything on this scale, to my knowledge).

Nothing you have listed exceeds TPM Maul's showings in any way.

@erkan12 said:

Anakin can't match with Dooku or TCW Maul. He stalemated with Obi-Wan.

His powers were significantly reduced during that fight. Despite his senses being advanced enough to fight an entire army alongside Kenobi while they were blindfolded, he was unable to even sense Kenobi during this time. Read Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader. Anakin was clearly stated to be vulnerable during that fight. He was "between worlds", as it was put. So his emotions were conflicting with his powers.

And let's see Dooku sundering huge dome facilities or manipulating Conqueror-class dreadnaughts. Dooku himself was astonished by Anakin's power in Labyrinth of Evil.

In the ruined archive hall of LiMerge Power's plasma facility, Count Dooku waited for Kenobi and Skywalker to arrive. The room was enormous by any standard, thirty meters high and three times that in circumference.

More droids appeared. To Dooku, this was nothing more than a game, Obi-Wan told himself. But if it was a demonstration of Force ability Dooku wanted, then Anakin was still more than willing to provide it.

"Dooku!" he howled.

With such force and wrath that the ceiling of the vast hall began to collapse.

Dragging himself out from under plasteel girders and chunks of ferrocrete, Count Dooku came shakily to his feet and gazed in astonished disbelief at the shambles of the control room. Had the containment dome been so weak that it had succumbed to flurries of ricocheting blaster bolts, or had Skywalker's voiced rage actually called the ceiling down? Had Dooku not leapt forcefully at the last moment, he might have been buried, as the two Jedi were, somewhere below, in the expanse of rubble that covered the archive room. He was certain that they had survived. But if nothing else they were trapped, which had been the intent from the start.

But Skywalker... Assuming that he had grown powerful enough to have collapsed the dome, the end result was simply further evidence that he would someday undo himself. Wasn't it? Because admitting to any alternative explanation meant accepting that Skywalker was potentially a greater threat to the Sith than anyone realized.

Source: Labyrinth of Evil

@shootingnova: You want physical feats, and I have showed you. Now you are denying it. Well, maybe not skill but speed, physical strength and durability of his grown thats for sure.

I am talking about this, not mechanical legs ;

And Vizsla fight ;

In other words, you concede. I gave you rebuttals for all of your points and you dismissed them as denials. I'll accept this as a concession.

And seriously? Durability? What durability feats does Maul have in TCW that outclass TPM Maul getting up after getting bowled over by Skycar repulsors or busting open hatches while enduring roasting temperatures?

And speed? What feats does he have there to outclass TPM Maul being faster than Qui-Gon (who could run/fight imperceptibly fast, form shields out of his blade, etc.), twisting around volleys of blaster bolts, moving fast enough to vanish, perceiving preternatural speeds in slow motion, shattering spines before guards could blink, forming multiple webs out of his lightsaber, killing multiple beings in an eyelash, etc.

No, physically, they are still the same. You have provided nothing to insinuate otherwise.

Lol.

@erkan12 said:

I am talking about this, not mechanical legs ;

And Vizsla fight ;

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1. I know what you were talking about. Savage is completely unrefined and clumsy. Why is grabbing his hand such an impressive feat?

2. Nothing TPM Maul couldn't accomplish at all. His speed, agility and dexterity is in every way on par with TCW Maul's.

@erkan12: Honestly, this discussion is becoming tiring. We're detracting too much from the thread without accomplishing anything. As such, it'd be safer to just agree to disagree.

@shootingnova:

You are coming up with TPM Maul's feat, like I am denying these. It is stated as ''Maul had grown powerful'' not saying ''Maul had grown powerful in the force''

And Savage saying it too. But well, what can I say ? there is no need any empty discussion for it.

@erkan12: So you do concede. Come back when you actually refute my points instead of mocking me with pointless and refuted logic. As I said, Savage was referencing Maul from Lotho Minor, not TPM Maul, whom he never met. Your comparison using Savage's subjective opinion is invalid because of that. But for some reason, you treat his opinion like that of an omniscient god.

What you can say is that there are no feats TCW Maul has that outclass TPM Maul's.

And just let it go. We're not even helping the thread with this.

And Lastly, being astonished by good feat but that doesn't mean they are in same leage. For example, Darth Plagueis astonished by TPM Maul's speed but that does not mean Plagueis and TPM Maul's speed are same.

@erkan12: Hardly to the same degree. Plagueis wasn't expecting much because he had never seen Maul before. Dooku faced Anakin many times already, being astonished after that is more impressive a feat.

You still provided nothing to support the claim that Anakin can't compare to Dooku when his feats are at least as good.

This thread got way out of hand. I'll agree that he stops at 3 because of Kit's Shi-choo(highly effective against dual blades) coupled with his comparable skill and speed to Maul's. Kit's also not far behind in his Force ability for Maul to have major advantage. Combine that with Koon being there and Maul loses a majority.

Kit wasn't even able to decisively beat Ventress who uses dual blades, nevermind Maul. And as I'll say again for the millionth time - Maul will only be able to use one of his blades against Kit at a time. One. Not two. There's no form advantage.

There speed and skill isn't really comparable in the way they're close. Maul outclasses him. Not to the degree he'd run rings around him, but he'd still beat him decisively alone. He is also quite far behind Maul in TK unless you have something to show otherwise (on land, not underwater).

Combining Koon makes things more interesting, sure, but I still doubt it's enough to beat Maul. Also, I'm going to take away Mauls darksaber for this round just so people can stop falling back on this non-existant form advantage.

@i_like_swords 1. You're right about that. Kit doesn't really have any comparable 1v1 dueling skill feats because his form kinda puts him at disadvantage. I'm guessing I'm overrating that TCW Grievous feat a little bit too much. I also forgot that Kit used a Force push on Grievous to knock him off his balance. Displaying a TK advantage that he wouldn't have against Maul. Since both Maul and GG are faster and stronger that Kit by an appreciable margin; I guess I shouldn't give that TCW feat so much weight. However it is still a legit showing for Kit's skill and mastery of Shi-choo.

2. You're right Maul does outclass Kit in speed by a bit. Although Kit does approach Maul in speed with this showing

To the rear of the car, where Grievous's pair of MagnaGuards had made the mistake of pitting themselves against Kit Fisto, the Nautolan's blade was a cyclone of blazing blue light.

--Taken from Labyrinth of Evil.(credit to Silver)

Not that it evens them out but we agree Kit is no sloth. And no, I don't have any real good TK feats for Kit outside of water right now.

3. Yeah that would better I think.

@whirlwind_33: Alrighty, bro.

@i_like_swords

@dccomicsrule2011: Couldn't he stop at Round 2? Pre-Viszla has given him and Obi-Wan good fights before, its obvious that guy has some type of plot armor against Force Sensitive's. Add in Jango, and I could see them winning.....

1. He only really gave Maul a good fight because he used every weapon in his arsenal against him, whereas Maul used only his lightsaber and martial arts skill.

2. He didn't give Obi Wan a good fight considering it did seem like Obi Wan holding back, by the way he neglected to retaliate, and didn't even redirect the missiles. Also, he basically got owned apart from the one combo of strikes he landed.

3. Ahsoka Tano, and a completely untrained force sensitive who has no experience, both did better against him than Maul and Kenobi, so it makes no sense for him to perform as well as he had.

4. He has no superhuman stats, and shouldn't really be competing in H2H with guys like Maul who see superhumanly fast droids in slow motion, and can kill 5 beings in the flicker of an eyelash, as well kick through a guys torso, punch through a Wampas chest, and trash durasteel with his hits.

5. The only real way to justify Vizsla doing well against them, is that Mandalorians are notorious for doing well against force users. Although this doesn't transfer to Vizsla because of his showings against Ahsoka and the other featless guy, and no other Mandalorian engages Jedi in H2H so well.

So.. I mean Vizsla shouldn't really have done as well as he did. He was kind of a one-shot character in essence. And Jango while good, has never dealt with someone as good as Maul, and both guys have no real answer or telekinesis. Maul should handily deal with either up close, and can dodge anything they throw at him.

@i_like_swords: Fair enough, I was kind of being a bit Jovial hence the term "Plot Armor :P"

@laflux: I could tell man :p. Just figured you would like the insight. Vizsla did grow on me for a while but then my common sense came back to remind me that he's a bit of a plot device.

@i_like_swords: What if you would little remade it? Modify the first round, keep the second, in third remove Plo Koon, in fourth give Savage and Asajj each one lightsaber, in fifth lightsabers only (not sure about this really), in sixth try to replace Windu with someone like Bloodlusted Dark Side Obi-Wan or I dont know but putting in this gauntlet 2 or 3 vs 1 its just you know what.

@penderor: I think the first round is just enough of a challenge to make it a discussable fight, but not enough for Maul to lose a majority. Maul would decisively beat Fisto or Koon alone, so there's no reason both of them together isn't a fair fight, especially considering both have at best stalemate showings against Ventress, and there's no longer a "form advantage" in that round, cause I've removed the Darksaber. Plus, Maul is better than both in TK. In the fourth I don't think swapping lightsabers around would make a difference, and the fight is quite good as it is. Eh, Grievous is fine where he is and in-character Maul wouldn't just force-abuse him right away. And I think Mace Windu vs Maul is one of the most debateable fights in Star Wars.

No, there is no such a thing.

Maul didn't use any TK on him, because he had to win Death Watch commander's loyalty, since winning with ''sorcerer's ways'' does not help at all.

Maul just stomps Vizsla and Fett with force choke.

In this list, Maul is superior to everyone in TK, except Mace Windu.

@i_like_swords: I disagree that maul would get decisive victory. Not sure about Plo but Fisto would give him a hard time thought he would probably knew from the beginning he is the lost one here. And I dont think Mace vs Maul is much debatable. Windu was able to develop his own form knowing both Juyo and Vaapad against Maul Juyo. He has an edge here plus Vaapad is created against Dark Side users I believe.

For Erkan. I am not so sure if he would be able to choke them both at once.

@penderor:

I disagree that maul would get decisive victory. Not sure about Plo but Fisto would give him a hard time thought he would probably knew from the beginning he is the lost one here.

Based on?

And I dont think Mace vs Maul is much debatable. Windu was able to develop his own form knowing both Juyo and Vaapad against Maul Juyo. He has an edge here plus Vaapad is created against Dark Side users I believe.

Vaapad is basically a lightside adaption of Juyo. Mace was good at Juyo, but seeing as that form draws on extremely volatile emotions, and is banned by the Jedi, Mace had to channel it in a positive way. Vaapad is his way of using Juyo without succumbing to the dark side. It wasn't created to combat Sith necessarily, it's just Windu's way of not falling to it, even though he teeters the line between light and dark quite heavily. But besides all that, just because he adapted Juyo doesn't make him more skilled than Maul by that alone. Mace has actually mastered every single lightsaber form, compared to Maul who has only mastered Juyo, Teras Kasi and Jar Kai. But is also proficient in Niman, and Dun Moch. However, this also doesn't instantly make Mace more skilled than Maul, given General Grievous has also mastered every lightsaber form and well.. he's not as skilled as Maul or Mace in combat terms.

What does make Mace more skilled than Maul, is because he has slightly better feats, and a slightly better skill accolade. Mace has fought Grievous, sparred with Dooku and stalemated/lost, defeated/stalemated (can't remember) Sora Bulq.. he's just fought more opponents than Maul. Maul's best feats are beating/fighting evenly with Kenobi nearing his prime, beating Kenobi and Qui Gon simultaneously, forcing Qui Gon to escape while Maul had a leg injury, killing Bruu Jun-Fan (the best unarmed combatant in the Jedi order) and Ko Solok simultaneously, and killing both Anoon Bondara (one of the best fighters in the Jedi order at his time) and his apprentice, who was amped to power levels above Anoon during their fight.

He's also stomped Korami Vosa, Dooku's old apprentice, right after being shot in the shoulder by a blaster, and completely schooled Savage, but they're lower tier feats.

In terms of accolades - Mace was second only to Dooku and Yoda in terms of lightsaber skill, and is known as one of the Jedi's most skilled fighters of all time. Maul, has been stated as being one of the most skilled Sith in all of galactic history. He's also been called one of the most deadly and well trained Sith. So his accolades are slightly lower than Mace's. And his feats are only slightly lower than Mace's. Still, they're close as hell in terms of overall lightsaber skill, and seeing as Maul is due to be fighting either Grievous or Dooku in an upcoming comic series, we'll see how he does against a real opponent other than Kenobi, very soon.

Also, the other thing that needs to be noted is that Maul is quite a bit better in TK than Mace. Mace has the skill, Maul has the force power. I'd say their physical stats are probably near identical.

I am thinking like this (and I know this was full amped Savage, I am showing this only for an example)

Also Vizsla and Fett are non-force sensitive, with TCW Maul's TK level this can be done.

And for Fisto and Koon, they would be good match for TPM Maul, but really I don't see them winning against TCW Maul.

@erkan12: To be fair, that was an amped Savage force choking two people while they were fighting. Not a good example, and Maul hasn't shown the ability to dominate two competent force users simultaneously. Granted I still think he can send one of them absolutely flying when he gets the chance, and could then deal with one of them alone - but he isn't stomping both in the force simultaneously.

Edit: That's in regards to Koon and Fisto though. He could do it to Jango and Vizsla granted he gets the chance.

@i_like_swords: True they were not focussed on Savage (though Dooku was using force lightning when Savage trying to attack) but still, they are not ordinary force sensitives, Ventress has some good TK feats and other one is Dooku... Amazing TK feat for Savage nontheless.

And there is a decent argument. You can't say he has greater magnitude of that power just because he used it against him successfully though

Exactly

@i_like_swords: Its based on the fact that Kit Fisto is shii-cho master? It has no weaknesses and Maul cannot really suprise Fisto with anything containing lightsaber skills. He cannot speedblitz him. He just cannot stomp him or easily beat him. Sidious killed two jedi masters with two attacks but he needed 3 or 4 to kill Fisto since he was able to deflect at least two strikes. I dont think that he would have much more trouble with Maul and dont argue with theyre duel on Mandalore because thats no factor.

Sidious in funny mood is going to kill one zabrak and keep the other. He wasnt using much of his powers on them.

... So you're agreeing with Nova, but disagreeing with me.. when me and Nova said the exact same thing?..

LOL what. Fisto getting creamed in 2 shots by Sidious makes him impressive, but Maul being toyed with isn't impressive? They both showed the exact same level of inferiority in their fights with Sidious. Fighting Sidious is never a good benchmark for anything given the fact nobody can compete with him.

People need to stop referencing Kit Fisto losing to Ventress. Makashi was literally designed as a counter to Shii-Cho. That's exactly why their advantages and disadvantages stand at a completely opposite interval. Shii-Cho is good against blaster bolts but isn't tailored for dueling; Makashi was tailored for dueling, not saber combat. Shii-Cho is best against multiple opponents or a single opponent with multiple weapons; Makashi is best suited for combating one person.

Obviously, if you look at masters of these forms, such as Kit Fisto and Dooku, respectively, they can pretty much compensate for this by virtue of their own skill and experience. But Makashi is still, fundamentally, a counter for Shii-Cho. It was originally designed for such a purpose.

And Maul does not outclass Fisto in speed or skill at all. Fisto forming cyclones of light out of his blade is a better speed feat than anything Maul has ever achieved, and Fisto is at least approachable to Maul by virtue of being one of the most skilled combatants in the Order and casually handling a pair of Magnaguards in a trilogy where three of them were deemed to be beyond Kenobi's ability to defeat, and actually did pose a challenge to Kenobi.

@i_like_swords: lmao nevermind, my main point was that Wisdom / potency =/= will

@i_like_swords: Fisto blocked two strikes and third one killed him. Whats impressive about being toyed? Just look on his fight with Savage. He was just avoiding his attacks like it would be nothing. The whole fight wasnt necessary at all they just made it to looks cool otherwise Sidious would just pushed them on the wall, choked to death Savage and then he would start torture Maul. Or with the first hit killing Savage, with second or third disarming Maul and then make him surrender.

What is your point, exactly? That Fisto is a better duelist than Maul because Sidious killed him in like two hits? Sidious could have snapped either of their necks simultaneously at a gesture. He could kill both of them before they even perceive what had happened. There's totally f*ck all impressive with either of their encounters with Sidious.

You know why you're bringing that up? Because Maul has better dueling feats, better accolades, better training, and better combat knowledge than Fisto. There's no advantage for Fisto to have in dueling.

Also Fisto is actually at a disadvantage in terms of lightsaber form. I've given Maul one lightsaber now. Shii Cho is good against multiple opponents, or multiple blades. Maul is one opponent, with one blade. And guess what? Shii Cho is actually ineffective against exactly that type of opponents. Whereas Mauls style totally focuses on breaking down an opponents defence. Maul has the form advantage, not Fisto. I swear Fisto's Shii Cho is being wanked through the roof in this thread.

Fisto and Kenobi are not in the same league as well.

I believe this quote proves that Kit Fisto is inferior to Obi-Wan Kenobi ; (Fisto afraid and admits he would feel better with Obi-Wan)

"I'd feel better if Yoda were here. Or even Kenobi. On Ord Cestus, Obi-Wan and I—"
"Yoda is pinned down on Kashyyyk, and Kenobi is out of contact on Utapau. The Dark Lord has revealed himself, and we dare not hesitate. Think not of if, Master Fisto; this duty has fallen to us. We will suffice… we will suffice. We will have to."

―Kit Fisto and Saesee Tiin (Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith novel)

And still I didn't see any ''proof'' that Sidious was toying with them even against Savage. So this is the logic ; ''Sidious didn't toying with Fisto because he killed him already''

So guess what, Savage Opress died as well......

Sidious was going to kill Savage already, toying with him makes no sense at all.

Savage did better job than even Fisto, I believe this proves Windu's friends are so weak in these levels, and even Savage Opress is stronger than Kit Fisto.

Also TCW Maul has many ways to stomp non-force sensitive beings such as Jango and Vizsla, not only force choke.

Neck snapping ;

Cracking their arms or legs ;

And, heart squishing ;

@erkan12: I completely overlooked that leg-snapping feat. Not bad at all. Gonna add it to the respect thread.

Btw, you think Savage needs a respect thread?

Of course, especially after doing this ;

His potential in the dark side is worthy of note.

Stops at mace windu...

@erkan12 said:

Didn't Sidious turn off his sabers at one point and just casually move out of the way of Savage's strikes? That's a pretty clear sign of toying with Savage to me.

@erkan12: Yes, there is proof. Read Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy (I thought you liked Darth Maul - care to pick up a novel of his?) Sidious could have speedblitzed them from the beginning but he limited his speed so that he could be seen. In the novel, at the end of the fight Sidious speedblitzes Maul, disarms him, and then ragdolls him. All Sidious did was stand there and let Savage attack and miss horribly anyways. Maul was unconscious; he wanted to let Maul see his brother die. That was the entire purpose - Sidious is a sadist.

This quote has nothing to do with power. Considering Kit Fisto had Mace Windu in his party, does this mean that Obi-Wan is more skilled than Mace Windu? All this means is that if Kenobi was here to join the four Jedi, Fisto would have felt safer. Stop using random quotes that you took off Wookieepedia, taking them out of context, and then reaching desperately with them. Honestly, have you read any material on Fisto at all? If not, read something like LoE. Because at the moment, your analysis is quite off the mark.

I made a blog yesterday to address these false misconceptions about the Jedi accompanying Windu being weak: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/were-the-jedi-masters-who-accompanied-mace-windu-i-1554418/

Mace Windu himself was the one who chose those three Jedi because they were three of the best in the Order. Shaak Ti and Obi-Wan Kenobi follow this up with their own opinions, in which they also list them as three of the best in the Order:

"I have chosen four of our best. Master Tiin, Master Kolar, and Master Fisto are all here, in the Temple. They are preparing already."

"What about Skywalker? The chosen one."

"Too much of a risk," Mace replied. "I am the fourth."

...

"Anakin, why? The Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?"

...

Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee - four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance."

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Not to mention Fisto's speed feats exceeding Mace Windu's and Saesee Tiin's power feats/accolades exceeding Mace Windu's.

Yes, Fisto is clearly in Obi-Wan's caliber. He is almost as killed as Kenobi and is faster. He is probably at least as powerful as well.

@erkan12 said:

Of course, especially after doing this ;

His potential in the dark side is worthy of note.

And again with taking things out of context. Ventress and Dooku were fighting each other - they would have had to have surrendered their power and attention to each other, not to Savage. An enraged Savage Choking two distracted being is almost tantamount to Choking two non-Force sensitives. He literally took them by surprise.

@shootingnova: To be fair, Bruu isn't a slouch. He was deemed, by Yoda, the Order's best unarmed fighter, so he should at least rival Anoon.

@intrepid37: When I did ever say anything about Bruu? Defeating him is not better than defeating Anoon Bondara, nor is it better than holding an advantage over Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan at the same time, especially taking into account that Qui-Gon > Anoon Bondara.

He turned off his lightsaber because he used force on Maul here ;

-2:40-

@shootingnova

Now I understand this Sidious highballing, just because he slaughtered Fisto I guess ? Yeah Fisto looks like cool and it seems he has some fans but really, Fisto is not at these levels. What duel he ever won ? You are saying this is as proof of Fisto's speed ;

Fisto forming cyclones of light out of his blade

This was under water, and TPM Maul already turned his lightsaber fast enough to make a shield.

Really, Fisto has no good duel feats, and no force feats on land. He is just overrated, Windu has much much better duel feats and saying Fisto is fast as Kenobi even fast as Windu is just fallacious idea.

And IIRC, Fisto already lost to Ventress by being slow.

And also saying, Fisto can deflect two of Sidious' attacks, while Savage and even TCW Maul can't, is make no sense either.

@shootingnova said:

@erkan12 said:

Of course, especially after doing this ;

His potential in the dark side is worthy of note.

And again with taking things out of context. Ventress and Dooku were fighting each other - they would have had to have surrendered their power and attention to each other, not to Savage. An enraged Savage Choking two distracted being is almost tantamount to Choking two non-Force sensitives. He literally took them by surprise.

Distracted ? Are you saying Dooku didn't notice Savage ? Last time I check, he send force lightning to him seconds ago in there.