Do we actually have.. calcs? Or are we just making useless 'feats' based guesses as is typical for a Vs discussion?
Are you saying out of universe calcs are supposed to be more reliable than in-universe logic? Because if so have fun arriving at some of the most hilarious conclusions ever.
Bantha and I visited a forum where everyone was like: Using IRL physics means this makes no sense! I need genuine calcs rather than your basic feats!
And we basically trolled and soloed the forum... they seem to have Cade, Arca and Thon in the same league as Krayt which is above Yoda :P
@i_like_swords: The comments I left on this thread about Calcs over feats are just some of the things the head moderator of the place said on those forums. It's quite funny. He thinks feats are too open to individual interpretation and therefore unreliable
@i_like_swords: The comments I left on this thread about Calcs over feats are just some of the things the head moderator of the place said on those forums. It's quite funny. He thinks feats are too open to individual interpretation and therefore unreliable
Honestly, even my freaking trolling self soloed several of them and they just kept yelling: PHYSICS! at me.
@wollfmyth209: Wollf your arguments did not apply real world physics therefore they were crap
Yeah... I mean forget the fact that its stated they moved at a certain speed... it doesn't make sense when you account physics... in a universe that lacks area of effect...
@wollfmyth209: You can bang on about 'logic' and 'feats' and 'canon' all you want, but all of that is going to be subordinate to interpretation because people don't view symbols in the same way, or attach meaning in the same way.
Zannah/Bane take this, Bane has both the raw power in the force and the dueling ability to take Darth Revan. Zannah's sorcery Eliminates Malak about as fast as she can use it.
It doesn't suggest that, at all. lol. Saying Revan will regret finding the Star Map which has some "incredible power" doesn't mean Pall cannot comprehend the Star Map, especially when he's implied to be comparable to the likes of Exar Kun.
Maybe “comprehend” was the wrong word to use, but Pall is clearly warning Revan that the Star Map’s power is too much for Revan, or Pall – or any other – to control. Of course this is not the case, as the person in question is Revan himself, but there’s a clear reason why Pall warns him.
Very hyperbolic statement.
This is a Star Map:
This is the Star Forge (I'm well aware this is from DeviantArt, but the sense of scale is there, and it looks cool):
You could easily fit several million Star Maps into that.
And this is ridiculous. Especially since Malak was more amplified by the Star Forge than hindered.
The reason he was amped is because he could subjugate it. It drains all other beings – dark or light – so it’s a hinderance to all except those who can control it.
"There is no one left with the power to control the Forge, though many have tried. I have watched them be devoured, their life drained from them as they attempt to tap into its power. Knowing what we do of the Builders and their fate, I'm convinced that Revan did not intend us to keep the Star Forge - to use it would mean the end of the Sith... the end of the Force."
–Bastila Shan.
"In your terminology, the Star Forge is a tool of the dark side. It corrupts those who use it so that it can generate greater and greater amounts of negative energy to fuel itself. The Builders thought they were strong enough to control this effect, but they were wrong. They became victims of their own creation, and eventually their hatred turned them against each other. Civil war destroyed the Infinite Empire - a lesson to remember. Only one who is immensely strong in mind can harness the power of the Star Forge without suffering a similar fate."
–Ancient Rakata Computer.
"We were not the first to fall to the dark side. But we had more power than those before us. It came from elsewhere - our oldest secret. Only we would know, we lords. Only we would know where our power came from. It is a secret of so long ago. I no longer remember. So much power, it is blinding. You must find this place, or have you? Or did you? Or will you? Oh, so many images. I see your heart, human Jedi. I see your power, your pride. You, you will find the old place, the dark place, and you will regret it."
–Ajunta Pall.
"The Star Forge was an enormous space-station/factory that harnessed the power of an entire star. Within its hull was a vast, intricate network of automated machines designed to mass-produce weaponry, droids, and starships. However, it was more than merely a metal construct. Its shadowed cavities were infused with the dark side of Force, endowing it with evil, breathing life."
–Databanks: The Star Forge.
"The Star Forge is more than just a space station. In some ways, it is like a living creature. It hungers. And it can feed on the dark side that is within all of us! Look around you, Revan. See the bodies? You should recognize them from the Academy. These are Jedi who fell when I attacked Dantooine. For all intents and purposes dead, except for one difference: I have not let them become one with the Force. Instead I have brought them here. The Star Forge corrupts what remains of their power and transfers the dark taint to me! You cannot beat me, Revan. Not here on the Star Forge. Not when I can draw upon the power of all these Jedi! And once you are beaten I will do the same to you. You will be trapped in a terrible existence between life and death, your power feeding me as I conquer the galaxy!"
–Darth Malak.
(Credit for the quotes goes to Darthant66)
Plus he could replenish his powers by draining Jedi, IIRC.
That’s the point. The Star Forge is selfish (if you could call it that), devouring all in its vicinity and empowering only itself. The fact that Malak could essentially “steal” its power is further testament to his willpower.
Correction: the temple of Lehon made Bane feel light-headed. Lehon itself just made him feel more power in the Dark Side than Korriban.
You’re right, thanks for the correction!
I don't recall him every resisting Nathema.
"He knew with absolute certainty that he had been to this world before. He remembered its deserted city and its lifeless surface. He remembered searching the empty buildings with Malak, looking for archives, records, and astrogation charts that would guide them on the next step of the journey. But most of all, he remembered the horror of a dead planet entirely stripped of the Force."
–The Old Republic: Revan.
That's more Force Healing or Battle Mind or Battle Meditation than willpower.
You’re probably right, but it still doesn’t take away from Malak’s other willpower feats.
So make a big enough opening to kill him, then?
Zannah had to concentrate intensely when employing the Spell on Bane; she can’t attack while she’s using it.
@wolfrazer: Any proof that Malak improved in the span of a few weeks so much that his pre-KotOR self would be incapable of replicating what he did in KotOR?
I think this match is close one, but I favour Team 1 for the majority tbh.
- Was what I had previously said.
But although I had already considered this close, my lack of Knowledge regarding Zannah kept me from deciding whether Malak vs Zannah would change the tables of the match.
I still have the same opinion of Darth Revan vs Bane, that DR will be able to hold out, almost with complete parity, but at a slight disadvantage.
But now I know a lot more about that Malak/Zannah match up, I feel the minimum scenario you presented is likely.
At the absolute minimum, he should be capable of holding his own until Darth Malak comes over to join the fray once Darth Zannah is dead.
You say Antoine is making a video on this soon?
Since he previously stated that he feels this is a close match up, though still favours team 1 and your admittance that you likely won't change his mind completely (indicating he still holds true to his previous opinion) I think this'll be interesting.
I respect both yours and @SilentBat's opinion highly and since you both appear to have different conclusions, I'm looking forward to this video...
Regardless of whether he manages to present an amazing counter argument and I end up wish washing between the two conclusions again, I still hold true (as I have since the beginning) that this match-up is a very close one.
(Or maybe you just meant he was uploading a video in general and not specific to this match-up and I'm just getting my hopes up).
@darthant66: I loved Revan and Malak vs Bane and Zannah (then again, I really like most of Antoine's videos). I thought it was phenomenal and near perfection. The only problem I personally had was Malak defeating Zannah-- which I made a comment about, you can probably find it easily-- but other than that, I agree that Revan > Bane. I agree with you that Antoine (and GreyJedi91 for that matter) rely on feats and facts to make their analysis from while EvanNova, and sometimes Jen/ Reti, tend to make their analysis' from Imaginationland. That's why I've always loved Antoine's, Matt's, Rico's, Soup's, AI's, and Wollf's videos more than the others.
It's not like Bane vs DR is anything but a close fight, but Malak's ability to pressure Zannah and resist her sorcery/esoteric abilities as well as being much more imposing as a duelist and combative force user solidifies the win.
Either way, the MvZ fight is going to be the one ending first for sure, they're not as matched as DR and Bane and are very different combatants. So whoever wins that fight is who will turn the tables and I'm glad that was made evident.
@darthant66: You already said who wins. I meant tell me the points that put it in favor of Malak and Revan. PM them if you don't want others to see it.
@darthant66: why?? I can't think of a single advantage bane has over revan. What was the fighting style he showed? Actually great? Most people seem to think Revan is an average duelist. Which is ridiculous.
I always liked @SilentBat's analyses. I feel like they were always based in the most truth, while the others were, like you said, glorified "fan-fiction."
As for this particular video, I was initially leaning more towards Darth Bane and Darth Zannah, but he has convinced me.
@darthant66: Honestly, I think Malak is a great duelist and a powerful Force wielder, but I don't see him getting in Zannah's guard and defeating her for a solid majority. I think Zannah could stonewall him and press her own offensive with her counterattacks much like Revan when he takes Malak's jaw off, but to a much more devastating degree. I'm always open to other opinions, but I just don't see Malak beating her 1-on-1. Do you think Malak > Zannah tho?
@darthant66: My hypothesis was that Bane and Zannah would win based on Zannah's sorcery disabling Malak. But then when looking the KOTOR campaign guide, Malak had a hard counter.
@darthant66: Ah interesting, I forgot that Zannah had to continue spinning her lightsaber for her form to be effective. Well, it's time to brush up on Zannah then and re-read ROT and DOE. Thank you!
I also addressed the rule on Youtube. I've searched for your comment, Emperordmb, but I cannot find it. It's likely buried just as mine is.
Now I'm back at my PC, I'll throw in my knowledge on the rule, just to clarify somethings. I'm gonna be lazy and just copy/paste my comment from Youtube.
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Hey, Antoine. Emperor339 here from Comicvine. Can't tag you on the site since I'm not at my pc, so I'll do it here. First off, I'd like to say 'great video'. It was one of your best yet imo and I agree with your analysis. Very entertaining too. I just wanted to ask how much merit you give that campaign guide stating Malak is immune to fear effects. I understand when people reference force powers or lightsaber forms as you pick and choose them to fit the character. However, I'm an avid player on the rpg and I wanted to clear something up. Immunity to fear effects isn't an ability chosen to represent the character. In the rpgs game mechanics, ALL Jedi Masters and Sith Lords are IMMUNE TO FEAR EFFECTS.
It also lists Vader, ROTS Yoda and ROTS Kenobi as immune to fear effects because of this rule. It's not one of the abilities that is indicative of the character, just a gameplay bonus all Masters and Lords get. Again, I agree with your outcome and there is evidence outside the rpg that indicates Malak could resist mental torture, but I just wanted to clear that rule up.
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If you want me to send you screenshots of the Sith Lord or Jedi Master for evidence or ever need some clarification regarding the Star Wars:Official Roleplaying Game, feel free to ask me on YT or Comicvine (though I'm away from my PC until Sunday). I'm a fan of these rpgs and my idea of fun is reading through rulebooks.
Again, it's just that 1st level features for prestige classes such as Jedi Master and Sith Lord tend to end up misrepresenting a character's capability since they're oddly specific and anyone attaining the class automatically recieves this bonus.
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For just an example, the rule in question is why, Yoda, Kenobi, Windu, Plo Koon, Ki-Adi Mundi, Kit Fisto and Seasee Tiin are listed as 'Immune' to fear effects wheras Anakin Skywalker isn't. Simply because he wasn't bestowed the title of Jedi 'Master' and is instead just a Jedi Knight. I hope this clears things up.
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