Daredevil/Punisher/Elektra (MCU) vs Arrow/Diggle/Speedy (CW)

Round 1: Pure H2H. No weapons.

Round 2: Standard Gear.

Fight takes place in a dimly lit warehouse. All fighters are at their best trying their best to win.

Callouts

Apologies if you were called out and weren't interested or weren't called out and were interested

Probably Team Arrow in both rounds for a very slim majority, and every fight would be incredibly difficult (and entertaining)

Arrow

Team Arrow both rounds.

I'd back team arrow in one hell of a fight.

Rnd1. The only real contest I see here is Daredevil vs Green Arrow. Frank would just destroy Diggle (which sucks because Digs is one of my all time favorites), and not as easily, but Elektra would take down Speedy (Speedy is flashy and all, but she takes WAY too long to take down an opponent, and she relies too much on speed and her opponents not being up to her level) Elektra would neutralize that and have her eating dust. As for Matt and Oliver...that's a HARD one, I'd say Oliver is probably more skilled but Matt has better armor. However, the armor has weak points Ollie could exploit, so I'd give Ollie this one 7/10..unfortunately he'd still have to deal with Frank and Elektra. Elektra, not that big an issue. Frank that's another story. Going 5/5 on this one.

Rnd 2. Different ball game. Team DD has MACHINE GUNS, Fast acting poisoned weapons, and a bad as guy with...um...trick batons.. As for the other team. One DOES have a fire arm which is a bonus. The other two have bows and arrows (which contrary to popular myth, will not penetrate Kevlar, unless using a special armor piercing tip called a "bodkin" tip). Another useful bit of information about Kevlar, it gives very poor protection against high velocity, high caliber fire arm rounds.

Team arrow, will most likely take down Elektra, who may or may not hit someone with a poison arrow, or shuriken first. Oliver WILL hit Matt, but, if the arrow penetrates DD's Kevlar (and Matt's armor has more of the rigid Kevlar) it will only be by about half an inch...the protruding Kevlar fibers will be doing is much damage. Also, Frank, WILL be laying down some massive Rock n Roll with no less than a SAW or more likely a M240 Machine Gun..which will plow through anyone's body armor. I could go into the other details, but this pretty much equals an MCU win. Even if Frank only has the standard M-4/203 they often show him using..

Team Arrow.

@heroup2112: this, however I would give Oliver just 6/10 in the h2h round against Matt.

Do you really think that Oliver would hit Matt? Because he was dodging assault rifle shots... Doesn't matter, I aggre with you

R1: Could he either way

R2: MCU, because of morals (better, lack of morals of Castle and Elektra). Does Oliver has trick arrows for this fight?

CW team for the hand to hand round. Ollie beats Matt. Castle against Dig and Elektra against Thea are great fights and could go either way but Ollie can pick up the slack.

CW team for the standard gear round. Castle is the only one with firearms on the Marvel team and that's pretty much only a forty-five or nine mil. I don't remember what he was carrying. Diggle will be the only one that'll have trouble dodging Elektras thrown weapons. Should be easier than the first round.

Team Daredevil both. Matt beats Ollie after a great fight. Frank takes down Diggle and Elektra beats Thea.

Round 1

Matt beats Ollie, Frank beats Dig. Elektra probably loses to Thea who is then cleaned up by the other two.

Round 2

Matt beats Ollie again. Frank beats Diggle, Thea beats Elektra.

Really depends on who wins first, Thea or Frank.

Matt and Ollie will be very close. Punisher takes down Diggle handily. I don't have a good grasp and enough knowledge on how good Thea is so I won't comment on who wins between her and Elektra but if it's a close fight I can see Matt edging out Ollie or have Punisher help Matt take down Ollie after he beats Diggle... then it's 3 v 1 and I doubt Thea comes out on top.

First round is very close, but the second one is a definite win for the DD team. Matt's body armour enhances his durability and striking damage and Frank is a wizard with firearms, and arrows don't mean much to Matt, although i can see Elektra going down in both rounds, more so the first. At least with her bladed weapons and lack of morals she could potentially get in a killing blow on Speedy or Digs, but not Ollie. Matt and Frank have the necessary physical capabilities and overall fighting skills to win the first round, but it'll be tough, much tougher than the second round.

This is a curbstomp. Daredevil gets fodderized by current Green Arrow like Malcolm Merlyn was. Punisher isn't in Spartan's league. Elektra was pathetic and doesn't belong in battles. The fact that this is being treated as an even battle shows how biased the Vine is to Daredevil.

Ollie beats matt in h2h and in the weapon round.

Frank beats spartan both rounds.

Elektra beats thea in h2h and loses to thea in the gear round.

Whoa there now, there is no way this is a curbstomp for anyone. Daredevil may not be able to beat Ollie yet, but he can definitely hold his own. Saying Arrow will fodderize DD because he fodderized Merlyn is blatant ABC logic at its finest.

In all honesty I haven't been keeping up with the show for a while, so unless Dig got some kind of huge upgrade in the meantime, I don't see how he is so out of Frank's depth. Some feats would be nice. And finally, just because Elektra isn't a top tier fighter, does not mean she is useless. She has done her share of beating up thugs, held her own against Stick, put up a respectable fight against the hand, etc

All in all, I am favoring team arrow, but not without casualties.

1. Arrow

2. Not sure what to consider standard gear for Punisher, so i cant call it.

So what you're saying is that Daredevil, the guy who still gets tired and beaten bloody from fighting a bunch of gangbangers, is competing on grandmaster martial artist tier? Where he has knowledge of ridiculous pressure points and can stop a man's pulse by giving him a tap? And regularly matches characters with centuries of martial arts experience? Daredevil, who's only beaten one impressive martial artist in two seasons of TV amidst all the grounded realistic brawlers who usually give him trouble, which only came after being defeated like three times and required him to be bloodlusted in order to do, is definitely a rival to Vandal Savage while morals on, and while bloodlusted, can defeat guys like Ra's al Ghul and Damien Darhk? Daredevil's speed, his greatest asset, is on a level where he can just casually jump down into the center of eight hard mercenaries aiming their assault rifles at him and literally speedblitz them all one by one before anybody can react, match a faster than eyesight super-soldier move for move in rapid escrima, and chase down a speeding motorcycle with a seven second headstart while on-foot? Putting Daredevil on Merlyn level is being so generous. Saying he's a match for Oliver, who's on Ra's al Ghul level, is ridiculous.

Dig surpassed Punisher when I realized that Punisher can't even kill a bunch of fodder without getting tagged over and over again. Frank isn't actually a highly skilled martial artist, he uses basic moves and pulls his weight with an outrageous threshold for pain. But when John spent a few hours chained up and getting tortured and stabbed through the gut by his brother Andy, only to be released when they figured he was nearly dead and instantly kill both HIVE soldiers guarding him with machine guns using a screwdriver, while dodging bullets from his brother, and then curbstomp, disarm and harmlessly handcuff his brother to a wall all through sheer skill, he became better than Punisher at basically everything. Martial arts skill, speed, brutality, toughness (they're probably equal in that), and obviously strength. Frank at best is on par with Diggle at the beginning of Arrow, since they were both expert soldiers. But by this point Diggle has spent years training in more advanced martial arts and has experience as a superhero. He's out of Frank's league.

Elektra can't even fight two or three generic Triad assassins without falling to her knees gasping for breath... Thea was better than her in the first episode of season four, perhaps even the first episode of season 3 when she casually outfought two of her own instructors at the same time in kenjutsu, and wasn't reduced to panting against a wall. Stick is more skilled than Nobu according to my headcanon, but the fact that he's ancient really makes any feat involving him less impressive. There's nothing stopping Thea from just filling her with arrows really.

Agreed, Matt does seem to get a little too winded and bloody when fighting gangbangers. But that is only due to fighting them after suffering injuries that would have put an ordinary man in traction for weeks, if not outright killed them. The fact he still managed to beat them in droves is a testament to his skill and willpower. He has never faced this problem when fighting them healthy. Ollie's pressure point knowledge is mighty impressive, but since he has only used it once in a blue moon and never in the heat of a battle, I don't think those feats are applicable in this scenario. You seem to have a knack of putting undue importance on experience and implied skill, when they hardly mean much without actual feats. I mean by your logic, Thor should be the best fighter among the avengers. As for Oliver's most skilled adversaries, I can agree on Ra's but Darhk was a mediocre fighter when powerless and I don't recall Ollie beating Savage on his own, unless they have had a recent tussle I am not aware of. And again, Ollie is an impressive fighter and will beat Matt and I never argued otherwise. But based on feats, Matt can definitely give him a hard fight.

Be that as it may, Frank does have an incredible damage soak and brutality to make up for his ostensible skill disadvantage here. I mean sure, he did get tagged a couple of times during his infamous 'prison yard dash' but that was because he was facing half a dozen criminals armed with knives and shivs, in a narrow prison hallway. And he still managed to put them down anyway. John's damage soak and endurance feats are pretty dope, but it doesn't really hold a candle to Frank's. I am talking about crap like shrugging off a shiv to his forearm and pulling it out to use as a weapon, taking multiple punches to the face from an enraged Fisk with a smile, being in good enough shape to fight some Irish mobsters with DD after being tortured with a freaking power drill to his ankle, and more. Dig probably only has him beat in skill and speed, so I am yet not seeing how he so out of Frank's league.

Actually she was beating quite a few of them on her own, when fighting them with Matt, so its only natural she will run out of breath due to fatigue. I am not sure where you got the idea that she could only handle 2 or 3 of them. And ancient or not, Stick was still tough in to withstand getting nails drilled below his fingernails and shrug of getting thrown around walls and was nimble enough to match Daredevil in acrobatics. So there is really no indication that his age had anything to do with his fighting prowess.

*Cringes*

@brucerogers: Matt wasn't suffering any serious injuries before the Dogs of Hell fight, and that scene is what I'm referring to. He fought a bunch of gangbangers two at a time, sometimes three, and by the end of it he was bloody, exhausted, and very nearly defeated.

How can you possibly put someone like that on Oliver/Ra's al Ghul/Damien Darhk/Vandal Savage tier? When Oliver, before he even got his gigantic season 3 amp, was fully capable of just walking into a warehouse full of trained mercenaries wielding swords, knives and other weapons, and just brutalizing every one of them, effortlessly, to the point of not even being touched a single time.

Maybe Daredevil could replicate this, by the very end of season 2. But that's why I said it's generous of me to put him on Malcolm Merlyn's tier. Because at this point, Oliver would still get curbstomped by Merlyn.

Yet you want to put Daredevil on the same tier as the Oliver who is literally skilled enough to fight centuries old, grandmasters of martial arts with superhuman speed and strength in hand-to-hand combat, and hold his own if not win outright? Why? What on EARTH ever happened in that Netflix show to make you believe that? Is there a season 3 I'm not aware of where Fisk spent 150 years training with the world's deadliest organization of assassins, doubled his strength and gained the speed to move like a blur, and then Daredevil still beat him? Because yeah, if that happened, I could see him and Ollie being on level playing field... but nothing in the first two seasons is even close to what Green Arrow is currently capable of. Which makes sense. Like I said, Daredevil, at the end of season 2, is on the same tier as Arrow at the end of his season 2, or possibly even Malcolm Merlyn. If Matt were bloodlusted and had the billyclub (the same conditions in which he beat Nobu) than I would DEFINITELY give him the win over Slade Wilson... but that's as generous as I can possibly be. Putting him, at the end of only 26 episodes of television, on the same tier as the guy with 92 episodes of television, guest appearances on two other major superhero shows AND an animated series, and at least 60 comic book issues, just isn't happening. That's blatant overestimation of the show. It's a grounded and gritty Netflix series, same way Arrow started out, but by this point Arrow is the focal point of a whole comic book expanded universe with metahumans, immortals, time travel, robots, etc. Oliver has fought speedsters, monsters, demons (more or less), his friends wiped out a small army of ninja only for him to solo all of them while mentoring them in a training session, he can literally jump down and speedblitz eight mercenaries aiming their machine guns at him before anybody can react, his average feats of Arrow dodging and deflecting are Daredevil's high-end feats, while his high-end feats consist of outracing a motorcycle on foot and snapping a superhuman's neck with one hand. Meanwhile Daredevil has taken on... gangbangers, 5-6 Hand ninjas at a time (who don't have any feats while all League ninjas are clear peak humans), peak human bruisers and brawlers (Fisk and Castle), and Nobu, who literally has one feat: beating Daredevil, before getting surpassed by Daredevil.

The two characters are literally from entirely different worlds. I bring up Oliver's impossible and superhuman pressure point knowledge because if a comic book character did the things he does, we'd all lose our minds over it. Look up any Batman debate on this site, all of his skill, according to 99% of users, is through his pressure point showings. Yet Arrow is a character we don't like so it becomes less impressive for him? The reason Thor isn't the best fighter in the MCU is because he was never actually stated to be centuries old. He is in the comics. The movies have never even implied it though. Even if he was centuries old though, he didn't spend those centuries in an assassin organization. That's why Ra's and Darhk are much more skilled than Vandal Savage despite not being as old. Age isn't experience, quality is what matters.

And I don't understand where you got the idea that Damian Darhk is an incompetent fighter from. In the finale when he outright reminded the audience that he is a former member of the League of Assassins, and then started doing triple spin kicks in midair across Oliver's face, didn't that make it pretty clear he's supposed to be a good fighter? When he walked over and picked up Oliver's own bow and hit him with one of his OWN arrows, JUST to prove that he could, that was pretty indicative of some high training. Is it the prison fight? That one scene in 23 episodes? Is that what makes you think he's a bad fighter? Because that scene is ridiculously misinterpreted, I've explained my interpretation to users before, but this post is already huge so if you're curious, I'll post it next. But what's most convincing to me is the fact that Damien did WAY better against a morals on Ollie, than Vandal Savage did. Season 4 showed us that morals on and morals off Ollie are in completely different leagues, and although Ollie managed to surpass Damien Darhk while morals off, he was utterly curbstomped morals on, yet fought well against Vandal Savage while also morals on. That leads me to believe that Damian Darhk (in addition to the sheer fact that he was Ra's al Ghul's rival and former partner/best friend) is more skilled than Vandal Savage.

Be that as it may, Frank does have an incredible damage soak and brutality to make up for his ostensible skill disadvantage here. I mean sure, he did get tagged a couple of times during his infamous 'prison yard dash' but that was because he was facing half a dozen criminals armed with knives and shivs, in a narrow prison hallway. And he still managed to put them down anyway. John's damage soak and endurance feats are pretty dope, but it doesn't really hold a candle to Frank's. I am talking about crap like shrugging off a shiv to his forearm and pulling it out to use as a weapon, taking multiple punches to the face from an enraged Fisk with a smile, being in good enough shape to fight some Irish mobsters with DD after being tortured with a freaking power drill to his ankle, and more. Dig probably only has him beat in skill and speed, so I am yet not seeing how he so out of Frank's league.

If I can be blunt for just one second to try and expedite this long post, you're just sugar coating Castle's inferiority. He is very impressive from the perspective of a grounded Marine sniper. But this doesn't change the fact that Diggle can attack a team of special forces and beat them with his bare hands without getting tagged at all.

Diggle has taken a bullet through his shoulder, just like Frank, and didn't even complain about it. The torture he endured from Andy was worse than what Frank endured by the mob, he got stabbed in the STOMACH, not the foot, yet unlike Frank, Diggle went on to speedblitz special forces soldiers armed with rifles and then curbstomp his own brother (arrow-timer, near equal to early Thea in melee, got rammed across an alleyway by a speeding van and just stood up like it didn't even hurt) through sheer skill. Frank hardly smiled when Fisk pummeled him, but Dig can tank hits from Mirakuru users so, like, yeah. There is nothing that Frank exceeds Diggle in. Literally.

Actually she was beating quite a few of them on her own, when fighting them with Matt, so its only natural she will run out of breath due to fatigue. I am not sure where you got the idea that she could only handle 2 or 3 of them. And ancient or not, Stick was still tough in to withstand getting nails drilled below his fingernails and shrug of getting thrown around walls and was nimble enough to match Daredevil in acrobatics. So there is really no indication that his age had anything to do with his fighting prowess.

It took Elektra nearly a minute to defeat two generic no-name Triad assassins. Skip throughout the video and you'll see it's the same thing for the whole season.

@nickzambuto: Has Ollie ever actually used that pressure point to stop a person's heart in a fight? Cause people bring it up all the time, but I've never even seen him actually apply it in combat

It's not meant to be used in combat. The fact that he knows a technique that outrageous and impossible is a testament to the overall level he is on, the quality of his training, the tone and impossibility of his whole world.

...it's not meant to be used in combat?

Then it's not exactly relevant when talking about how he fights. Wouldn't examples from actual fights be more relevant?

Why are pressure points impressive from comic book characters, but when Arrow is inspired by those scenes directly and does the same thing, it's not impressive?

I never even said anything about pressure points from comic characters.

When it comes to comic characters, I'd say the same thing-it's not really valid if it's not used in combat

Oliver and Thea are too much for Matt and Elektra, and Frank can't take them both.

So the fact that Oliver is so advanced in the martial arts that he can stop a man's pulse merely by tapping him, and then awaken the man whenever he feels like it with another tap, just means absolutely nothing to you?

Why doesn't he use it in combat? I mean, if we're discussing how they fight, then something he's literally never used in a fight isn't particularly relevant. It's a cool trick, but if he doesn't do stuff like that in actual fights it doesn't matter

Hnnnnnnnnnnnngh

Want to post... so bad... head hurts...

@stormdriven: Do it!!!

@nickzambuto: Due to the length of your reply, I think I will be better off not quoting it and replying to points that are relevant. I hope you don't mind.

First off yes, when fighting the Dogs of Hell, Matt wasn't as injured as he was when fighting the Russians in the hallway in season 1, but he had just spend a good portion of the night strapped up in chains with wounds that were still fresh from fighting Castle. Plus he was fighting with a gun taped to his right hand, which admittedly would have given him better striking power but at the cost of versatility ie he would not be able to use that hand for anything besides striking. Thus he was hardly at his best now was he?

The only reason why people keep bringing up comic Daredevil or Batman's pressure point skills as combat feats is because they have actually used them as such.I don't recall Ollie ever using them when actually fighting someone and thus those feats don't mean much in a combat scenario. Doesn't make it any less impressive and I never meant to imply otherwise.

As for the experience part, I was actually referring to 616 Thor who has fought countless battles over the centuries and is yet not quite the hand to hand fighter guys like Captain America, Wolverine or Iron fist are. The reason why fighting experience does not hold up when compared to cold hard feats is simply because we do not know about the nature of the battles fought. Using Ra's as an example, how do we know that all the people he has fought and killed over the years were notable fighters and not just random grunts? How do we know that his victories were his own and not due to luck or assistance? and etc. The same applies to combat training.

Technically while a knife to the stomach does sound more fatal, I think you are underselling the consequences of getting power drilled to the foot. The pain would be immense enough to make a person pass out, and yet Frank was lucid enough to further trash talk his tormentors before eventually escape his bounds by removing a blade from his freaking fingernail, and murder the gangsters. Oh and did I mention he was also shot once or twice before making his escape with DD?. And which Mirakuru soldier did Dig tank a hit from?

@nickzambuto:

Matt wasn't suffering any serious injuries before the Dogs of Hell fight, and that scene is what I'm referring to. He fought a bunch of gangbangers two at a time, sometimes three, and by the end of it he was bloody, exhausted, and very nearly defeated.

As @brucerogers pointed out above, Matt was hardly in peak condition considering he had fought Frank earlier that night, suffered from the vertigo that had overcome him from the gunshot, and was chained up pretty much the rest of the night. Even then, Matt still managed to walk all of that and the beating off.

How can you possibly put someone like that on Oliver/Ra's al Ghul/Damien Darhk/Vandal Savage tier? When Oliver, before he even got his gigantic season 3 amp, was fully capable of just walking into a warehouse full of trained mercenaries wielding swords, knives and other weapons, and just brutalizing every one of them, effortlessly, to the point of not even being touched a single time.

How can you compare a weakened Matt to a pissed off Oliver in peak condition? Not to mention Oliver had gear. I'm not bashing the feat, but I don't think it's a comparable instance.

Maybe Daredevil could replicate this, by the very end of season 2. But that's why I said it's generous of me to put him on Malcolm Merlyn's tier. Because at this point, Oliver would still get curbstomped by Merlyn.

Matt when he was supposed to, for all intents and purposes, be in a coma, did something similar in Season 1 (the hallway fight). A peak Matt shouldn't have any problem replicating the same thing at the end of Season 2.

Yet you want to put Daredevil on the same tier as the Oliver who is literally skilled enough to fight centuries old, grandmasters of martial arts with superhuman speed and strength in hand-to-hand combat, and hold his own if not win outright?

If you're going to do a cross universe comparison, refrain from using titles like "grandmasters of martial arts" when they lack feats to support it outside of the ABC logic in beating Oliver. It's wholly irrelevant. Comic Ra's al Ghul is supposed to be a grandmaster martial artist, yet he gets smacked by Batman almost every time they meet.

Is there a season 3 I'm not aware of where Fisk spent 150 years training with the world's deadliest organization of assassins, doubled his strength and gained the speed to move like a blur, and then Daredevil still beat him?

This I don't even understand. An unarmed Ra's would have no hope in beating Fisk. The amount of time you spend training is meaningless when you can't hurt your opponent.

Because yeah, if that happened, I could see him and Ollie being on level playing field... but nothing in the first two seasons is even close to what Green Arrow is currently capable of. Which makes sense. Like I said, Daredevil, at the end of season 2, is on the same tier as Arrow at the end of his season 2, or possibly even Malcolm Merlyn. If Matt were bloodlusted and had the billyclub (the same conditions in which he beat Nobu) than I would DEFINITELY give him the win over Slade Wilson... but that's as generous as I can possibly be. Putting him, at the end of only 26 episodes of television, on the same tier as the guy with 92 episodes of television, guest appearances on two other major superhero shows AND an animated series, and at least 60 comic book issues, just isn't happening.

You should already know that quality beats quantity. Batman has approximately 2000 more appearances in comics than Spider-Man, yet Spider-Man is obscenely more powerful. Not to say Matt is far superior to Oliver in anyway, but you can't discount what Matt has done just because he has fewer appearances. Matt has done enough to say this is a close fight.

Arrow is the focal point of a whole comic book expanded universe with metahumans, immortals, time travel, robots, etc.

And Daredevil is part of an expanded universe that has a giant rage monsters capable of killing giant whales with a punch, and a thunder god that can summon lighting on a whim. Ignoring the context of Oliver's encounters with those types of enemies doesn't help your argument, especially when he's been beaten by a lot less.

to solo all of them while mentoring them in a training session

Team Arrow was fighting each other. They weren't paying attention to just one opponent. Granted Oliver was so much better than them which allowed him to take advantage, but it's not like it was a 3v1.

he can literally jump down and speedblitz eight mercenaries aiming their machine guns at him before anybody can react

When was this?

his average feats of Arrow dodging and deflecting are Daredevil's high-end feats

Seriously? Matt dodges point blank assault rifle fire, from multiple opponents. If you're referring to just arrow dodging, Matt has effortlessly dealt wtih arrows, with the same ease Oliver has. This is an unfounded statement.

while his high-end feats consist of outracing a motorcycle on foot and snapping a superhuman's neck with one hand.

The motorcycle feat is overblown. He didn't outrace a motorcycle, he cut corners through buildings and alleys. My older brother has done the same with my dad's truck before. It's an impressive feat, but not anywhere close to what you make it out to be. What superhuman did he kill with one hand?

gangbangers, 5-6 Hand ninjas at a time (who don't have any feats while all League ninjas are clear peak humans)

How are all League ninjas clear peak humans? There are 2 impressive ones in the entire series. Both were in Season 2. Hardly an accurate representation of all League ninjas.

and Nobu, who literally has one feat: beating Daredevil, before getting surpassed by Daredevil.

I don't see how this is supposed to detract from Matt at all. You're bringing up the fact his only fights are against Matt, as a way to downplay Matt? Why?

I bring up Oliver's impossible and superhuman pressure point knowledge because if a comic book character did the things he does, we'd all lose our minds over it. Look up any Batman debate on this site, all of his skill, according to 99% of users, is through his pressure point showings.

Because Batman actually uses them during fights. Oliver's knowledge of one or two pressure points is irrelevant to the fight.

The reason Thor isn't the best fighter in the MCU is because he was never actually stated to be centuries old

Except he's the Thor from Norse mythology, even in the MCU. So he is centuries old.

Even if he was centuries old though, he didn't spend those centuries in an assassin organization. That's why Ra's and Darhk are much more skilled than Vandal Savage despite not being as old. Age isn't experience, quality is what matters.

Why would being an assassin automatically make you more "skilled" than another person? Deadshot isn't more "skilled' than Batman, and he's one of the best assassins in DC.

And going by your logic, Vandal is leagues more "skilled" than either Ra's or Damien because he knows every pressure point and hold created.

And I don't understand where you got the idea that Damian Darhk is an incompetent fighter from. In the finale when he outright reminded the audience that he is a former member of the League of Assassins, and then started doing triple spin kicks in midair across Oliver's face, didn't that make it pretty clear he's supposed to be a good fighter?

No, the poor technique and the punch out contest he and Oliver had at the end would make anybody else think otherwise.

When he walked over and picked up Oliver's own bow and hit him with one of his OWN arrows, JUST to prove that he could, that was pretty indicative of some high training.

The fact he can use a bow means he had high training?

But what's most convincing to me is the fact that Damien did WAY better against a morals on Ollie, than Vandal Savage did. Season 4 showed us that morals on and morals off Ollie are in completely different leagues, and although Ollie managed to surpass Damien Darhk while morals off, he was utterly curbstomped morals on, yet fought well against Vandal Savage while also morals on. That leads me to believe that Damian Darhk (in addition to the sheer fact that he was Ra's al Ghul's rival and former partner/best friend) is more skilled than Vandal Savage.

Interesting point, and I'd be inclined to agree, but Oliver didn't make any headway against Vandal Savage. Kind of a wash, honestly.

If I can be blunt for just one second to try and expedite this long post, you're just sugar coating Castle's inferiority. He is very impressive from the perspective of a grounded Marine sniper. But this doesn't change the fact that Diggle can attack a team of special forces and beat them with his bare hands without getting tagged at all.

The Ghosts weren't even special forces. The majority were just indoctrinated men.

Diggle has taken a bullet through his shoulder, just like Frank, and didn't even complain about it. The torture he endured from Andy was worse than what Frank endured by the mob, he got stabbed in the STOMACH, not the foot, yet unlike Frank, Diggle went on to speedblitz special forces soldiers armed with rifles and then curbstomp his own brother (arrow-timer, near equal to early Thea in melee, got rammed across an alleyway by a speeding van and just stood up like it didn't even hurt) through sheer skill. Frank hardly smiled when Fisk pummeled him, but Dig can tank hits from Mirakuru users so, like, yeah. There is nothing that Frank exceeds Diggle in. Literally.

This would be valid if Andy and those ghosts hadn't thrown the fight so they could track Diggle to Rubicon. They let him escape. Frank has far superior will power and pain tolerance feats than Diggle does.

Ask, and ye shall receive!

@stormdriven: It's like Christmas!

Ollie wins. Stop trying to justify daredevils failures, then continue to put him on Ollies level. It's annoying.

"But daredevil has hurt in that scene", yeah so. Maybe he gets hurt all the damn time because he doesn't have the necessary skill or physical stats to not get hurt.

lol

Thing is, Matt didn't sustain any particularly grievous wounds from Castle. The episode certainly didn't act like he was being debilitated, and he was definitely over the whole concussion thing by that point. If I can just be blunt for just one moment, the truth is you're just sugarcoating Matt's inadequacy compared to Oliver. They are two different shows with two different tones. It's okay for Matt to get tired after fighting for four minutes, and for larger men like the final biker to be stronger than him despite being canon fodder, and for him to struggle to keep up with large numbers of opponents all attacking at once. His show is still great.

Oliver's show, just doesn't operate like that though. He is a peak human. That means, he is literally the best, at EVERYTHING. No no-name canon fodder big guy is going to be stronger than Oliver. The only people in his whole world capable of keeping up with him, are metahumans and fellow peak humans. When Oliver is attacked by groups, he doesn't struggle to keep track of them all at once. Somehow, someway he is just magically "skilled" enough to keep track of them all at once and control the whole situation at all times. You need only watch that fight clip I posted above. Oliver has three mercenaries attacking him from all sides, yet is able to always dodge their attacks without looking, even making them hit each other, and no matter how they all attack him he seems to always know how to respond, instantly, so that he doesn't become overwhelmed. Daredevil, doesn't do that. Look at his Dogs of Hell fight. When engaged with one guy, it's possible for him to fail to avoid another guy.

Seriously, all you need to do is compare these two fights. One guy is fighting deadly mercenaries armed with swords, knives and armor, up to three/four at a time. The other is fighting gangbangers, on a narrow staircase and almost exclusively one or two at a time. Only one of them beat everybody effortlessly. Oliver having a gun strapped to his hand wouldn't have changed things so drastically when what he did is literally miles more impressive than what Daredevil did. And even if it DID make THAT big of a difference, Daredevil having an excuse for his greater struggles with fodder, doesn't excuse the fact that he still doesn't have an actual counter to Oliver's actual feats. Even if I forgave Daredevil for struggling more with fodder... he still hasn't ever fought characters like Ra's al Ghul, Vandal Savage, or Damien Darhk.

The only reason why people keep bringing up comic Daredevil or Batman's pressure point skills as combat feats is because they have actually used them as such.

Daredevil has. Green Arrow has, in the comics on the superhuman Deathride. And on Ra's al Ghul when he closed his throat.

The only person here who doesn't use pressure points in combat is Batman.

As for the experience part, I was actually referring to 616 Thor who has fought countless battles over the centuries and is yet not quite the hand to hand fighter guys like Captain America, Wolverine or Iron fist are. The reason why fighting experience does not hold up when compared to cold hard feats is simply because we do not know about the nature of the battles fought. Using Ra's as an example, how do we know that all the people he has fought and killed over the years were notable fighters and not just random grunts? How do we know that his victories were his own and not due to luck or assistance? and etc. The same applies to combat training.

I don't understand how you can argue this. Experience is literally the number 1 most important aspect of being a good fighter. Just because you were able to come up with one character who has a lot of experience but isn't the type of character who relies on martial arts skill doesn't change that, especially when your other example, Wolverine, IS a top tier primarily because of his 200 years of experience. How can you just devalue Ra's al Ghul to "oh everybody he ever fought could have been a grunt." Seriously? He spent at least 150 years leading and training the League of Assassins, and an untold number of years prior acting as the horseman for the previous Ra's al Ghul. You can't devalue experience just because Thor isn't a top tier. As if the way Ra's al Ghul was portrayed, with his ability to dodge strikes with only the slightest of movements, didn't support the idea that he was a grandmaster.

Technically while a knife to the stomach does sound more fatal, I think you are underselling the consequences of getting power drilled to the foot. The pain would be immense enough to make a person pass out,

?????? And a knife to the stomach isn't???????

and yet Frank was lucid enough to further trash talk his tormentors before eventually escape his bounds by removing a blade from his freaking fingernail, and murder the gangsters.

Diggle did the exact same thing to more dangerous enemies.

Oh and did I mention he was also shot once or twice before making his escape with DD?.

Irrelevant if that was when they escaped.

And which Mirakuru soldier did Dig tank a hit from?

Solomon Grundy and Ravager. He tanked hits. Better than anybody else in the show.

Normal humans immediately died from a single hit of a Mirakuru user.

Peak humans like Malcolm and Sara was knocked unconscious with a single blow.

Oliver endured the blows and continued fighting, using all of his will power.

Diggle on the other hand, the tank of the team, somehow didn't even seem bothered by them.

bump

Punsiher doesnt take down Diggle handily. If anything Diggle wins a competitive fight??? Wtf

Just him and Arrow are enough imo

Round 1: Netflix team. Diggle and Speedy are good hand to hand fighters, but not nearly on the level of the three Netflix heroes. Ollie would pretty much be their only hope, and he'd lose eventually.

Round 2; CW team. Arrows and handguns make better weapons than billy clubs and sai. Granted Punisher has lots of good weapons, but Green Arrow has beaten plenty of men with guns before (Deadshot, Slade, etc).

What's stopping Oliver from soloing?

The fact that he can't

Round 1:

In h2h, Matt > Oliver > Diggle >= Frank > Thea >= Pre Black Sky Elektra

Not sure.

Round 2:

Probably Team Arrow, although Frank would kill one or two of them.

A lot closer now, but still Team Arrow for a solid majority.

You have to nerf Elektra for this to be fair.