Cyttorak vs Shuma-Gorath

" Shuma-Gorath cant beat Cyttorak. "

"
This is still going on? It's a Shuma stomp fest. Cyttorak has nothing to show for all his hype. "

" @Prince CortSether said:

"
This is still going on? It's a Shuma stomp fest. Cyttorak has nothing to show for all his hype. "

You didnt read any comic book with Cyttorak, right? "

" @Jedisupermaster: 
 Strange, even when fused with the chaos lord Arioch and having all his powers as Sorcerer Supreme, magical artifacts from Cyttorak and the Vishanti,  as well as all of his prep time, was unable to harm Shuma-Gorath until Shuma's own power was surging within himself. It was Shuma-Gorath's power defeating  Shuma-Gorath. It was Shuma who was shown to be capable of withstanding destruction from a guy who already held the majority of magical power in Marvel. It was Shuma-Gorath who had a servant who had power as strong as he could imagine, it was Shuma-Gorath who had power enough to destroy galaxies just by being present, it was Shuma-Gorath who made the Ancient One tremble in fear and realize that he was doomed the moment Shuma made it known he was targeting earth, it was Shuma-Gorath who enslaved Nightmare within his dimension, he totally dominated Nightmare within his own realm just by projecting his influence, he didn't even have to go there. It is Shuma-Gorath who rules hundreds of universes and can feed off of  any kind of energy, it was Shuma-Gorath and the rest of the Many-Angled Ones who pwnd the abstracts of the Cancerverse and made the Cancerverse's Galactus Engine that was pwning Celestials. It was Shuma-Gorath who made Mephisto and Satannish look like mice in a great temple in one of his lesser realms and it was Shuma-Gorath who Doc Strange regarded as being even more powerful than Dorammu. Cyttorak dies at Shuma's tentacles if the two meet. "

Ok, let me give some facts to you.

First of all, Cyttorak has limitless power in his own demension. Did you read a comic with Cain Marko and Luke cage? You can find there that Cyttorak gives limitless kinetic energy to Juggernaut making him unstoppable. Vishanti, didnt allowed Strange to fight Cyttorak with their powers because they were affraid of Cyttorak. Dspeir, the strongest FEAR LORD (he can beat classic Nightmare) with a power enougth to control the universe (he had a very little part of Cyttoraks power and was able to control it easily) wasnt able to kill depowered Juggy. So, if Cyttoraks avatar, who has only a VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY little part of Cyttoraks power, can withstood an attack of a being who can destroy the whole universe, you can imagine how powerfull Cyttorak trully is. Trion Juggernaut, who had only a very little part of Cyttoraks power, was destroying demensions, universes and demensional barriers easily and he was multiversal thread. Trion Juggernaut >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Arioch. Dr. Strange, while being in Crimson Cosmos, told, that nobody outside Crimson Cosmos can save him. many powerfull creatures invoked Cyttoraks power. Dormammu, for example. Also, if i not mistake, Juggy defeated Nightmare once. A classic Nightmare, who banished Eternity once. And that is not all of my facts. Cyttorak beats Shuma-Gorath.

" @Prince CortSether said:

" @Jedisupermaster: 
 Strange, even when fused with the chaos lord Arioch and having all his powers as Sorcerer Supreme, magical artifacts from Cyttorak and the Vishanti,  as well as all of his prep time, was unable to harm Shuma-Gorath until Shuma's own power was surging within himself. It was Shuma-Gorath's power defeating  Shuma-Gorath. It was Shuma who was shown to be capable of withstanding destruction from a guy who already held the majority of magical power in Marvel. It was Shuma-Gorath who had a servant who had power as strong as he could imagine, it was Shuma-Gorath who had power enough to destroy galaxies just by being present, it was Shuma-Gorath who made the Ancient One tremble in fear and realize that he was doomed the moment Shuma made it known he was targeting earth, it was Shuma-Gorath who enslaved Nightmare within his dimension, he totally dominated Nightmare within his own realm just by projecting his influence, he didn't even have to go there. It is Shuma-Gorath who rules hundreds of universes and can feed off of  any kind of energy, it was Shuma-Gorath and the rest of the Many-Angled Ones who pwnd the abstracts of the Cancerverse and made the Cancerverse's Galactus Engine that was pwning Celestials. It was Shuma-Gorath who made Mephisto and Satannish look like mice in a great temple in one of his lesser realms and it was Shuma-Gorath who Doc Strange regarded as being even more powerful than Dorammu. Cyttorak dies at Shuma's tentacles if the two meet. "

Ok, let me give some facts to you.

First of all, Cyttorak has limitless power in his own demension. Did you read a comic with Cain Marko and Luke cage? You can find there that Cyttorak gives limitless kinetic energy to Juggernaut making him unstoppable. Vishanti, didnt allowed Strange to fight Cyttorak with their powers because they were affraid of Cyttorak. Dspeir, the strongest FEAR LORD (he can beat classic Nightmare) with a power enougth to control the universe (he had a very little part of Cyttoraks power and was able to control it easily) wasnt able to kill depowered Juggy. So, if Cyttoraks avatar, who has only a VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY little part of Cyttoraks power, can withstood an attack of a being who can destroy the whole universe, you can imagine how powerfull Cyttorak trully is. Trion Juggernaut, who had only a very little part of Cyttoraks power, was destroying demensions, universes and demensional barriers easily and he was multiversal thread. Trion Juggernaut >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Arioch. Dr. Strange, while being in Crimson Cosmos, told, that nobody outside Crimson Cosmos can save him. many powerfull creatures invoked Cyttoraks power. Dormammu, for example. Also, if i not mistake, Juggy defeated Nightmare once. A classic Nightmare, who banished Eternity once. And that is not all of my facts. Cyttorak beats Shuma-Gorath.

"

This is still going on?

" @Jedisupermaster said:

" @Prince CortSether said:

" @Jedisupermaster: 
 Strange, even when fused with the chaos lord Arioch and having all his powers as Sorcerer Supreme, magical artifacts from Cyttorak and the Vishanti,  as well as all of his prep time, was unable to harm Shuma-Gorath until Shuma's own power was surging within himself. It was Shuma-Gorath's power defeating  Shuma-Gorath. It was Shuma who was shown to be capable of withstanding destruction from a guy who already held the majority of magical power in Marvel. It was Shuma-Gorath who had a servant who had power as strong as he could imagine, it was Shuma-Gorath who had power enough to destroy galaxies just by being present, it was Shuma-Gorath who made the Ancient One tremble in fear and realize that he was doomed the moment Shuma made it known he was targeting earth, it was Shuma-Gorath who enslaved Nightmare within his dimension, he totally dominated Nightmare within his own realm just by projecting his influence, he didn't even have to go there. It is Shuma-Gorath who rules hundreds of universes and can feed off of  any kind of energy, it was Shuma-Gorath and the rest of the Many-Angled Ones who pwnd the abstracts of the Cancerverse and made the Cancerverse's Galactus Engine that was pwning Celestials. It was Shuma-Gorath who made Mephisto and Satannish look like mice in a great temple in one of his lesser realms and it was Shuma-Gorath who Doc Strange regarded as being even more powerful than Dorammu. Cyttorak dies at Shuma's tentacles if the two meet. "

Ok, let me give some facts to you.

First of all, Cyttorak has limitless power in his own demension. Did you read a comic with Cain Marko and Luke cage? You can find there that Cyttorak gives limitless kinetic energy to Juggernaut making him unstoppable. Vishanti, didnt allowed Strange to fight Cyttorak with their powers because they were affraid of Cyttorak. Dspeir, the strongest FEAR LORD (he can beat classic Nightmare) with a power enougth to control the universe (he had a very little part of Cyttoraks power and was able to control it easily) wasnt able to kill depowered Juggy. So, if Cyttoraks avatar, who has only a VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY little part of Cyttoraks power, can withstood an attack of a being who can destroy the whole universe, you can imagine how powerfull Cyttorak trully is. Trion Juggernaut, who had only a very little part of Cyttoraks power, was destroying demensions, universes and demensional barriers easily and he was multiversal thread. Trion Juggernaut >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Arioch. Dr. Strange, while being in Crimson Cosmos, told, that nobody outside Crimson Cosmos can save him. many powerfull creatures invoked Cyttoraks power. Dormammu, for example. Also, if i not mistake, Juggy defeated Nightmare once. A classic Nightmare, who banished Eternity once. And that is not all of my facts. Cyttorak beats Shuma-Gorath.

"

1) All god have virtually unlimited power in their dimension as they control the very fabric of the realm itself. What you said about Cyttorak holds true for Shuma-Gorath as well. Though Cyttorak has yet to prove that he can forcefully transfer the power of other universes into himself, unlike Shuma who has done so over 100 times. 2) And the Vishanti couldn't defeat Shuma-Gorath the first time around and then told Strange that they wouldn't help him fight Shuma.3) Okay, Shuma-Gorath would dominate D'Spayre also. It was also said that should Shuma-Gorath fully enter 616 once again then it would be doomed. 4) Trion Juggernaut had quite a lot of Cyttorak's power. He didn't destroy any dimensions either, he was breaking a barrier between dimensions - two different things.5) Arioch has only one showing for a few panels so you can't really compare Trion and Arioch. However, we do know that Kaluu, the evil opposite of the Ancient One, was unable to venture into Arioch's realm because the realm before that had such strong energy it put him into a coma. And in that realm we know that Mephisto and Satannish are nothing to that power, and Arioch is even more powerful than the energies that control the realm Kaluu collapsed in. That means Arioch is >>>> Mephisto and Satannish. Trion couldn't pull a PIS move like Strange did against him, and I doubt he'd be able to destroy Arioch since he can become as powerful as he can imagine.6) Many powerful creatures, sorcerers, and even planets invoke the power of Shuma-Gorath.7) So what proof are you going to rely on that Cyttorak is superior to Shuma-Gorath? "

1) I can prove that Cyttorak has truly limitless power. Do you want me to do that?

2) They fought Shuma-Gorath, but they feared of Cyttorak and didnt even fight him. So that proves power of Cyttorak >>>>>>>>>>>>>> power of Vishanti.

3) Are you sure Shuma-Gorath can beat THAT Dspeir? I highly doubt since THAT Dspeir was able to manipulate the whole 616-universe.

4) Why do you think Trion Juggernaut has quite a lot Cyttoraks powers? he has only a power of 1 Cyttoraks aspect. Cyttorak has many aspects. And Trion Juggernauts power was growing every second. Also, it was wrote in one comic that Trion Juggernaut destroyed some demensions and universes and he was able to do that. Shuma-Gorath will not do anything to him. I hope you will understand why do i think so.

5) Cyttorak has limitless power, so do Trion Juggernaut. Imagination is not limitless. trion Juggernaut destroyes Arioch.

6) For example?

7) Limitless power of Cyttorak >>>>>>>>>>>>> limitness power of Shuma-Gorath.

As I like to find the fairness of things against the fanboyism or the biased subjective of assessment of “cool characters” over old characters so powerful that for the same reason rarely are reported. I will expose all the evidence about why Cyttorak overpowers Shuma Gorath.   (^__^) (^ O ^)

I begin by clarifying some terms that lend to utter confusion.

Begin to understand what means the term Omnipotence in its absolute and relative sense:

The Blackwell dictionary of Western philosophy defines Omnipotence:

“Unlimited power; commonly attributed to a deity or deities” and Cyttorak is a deity.

Source:

http://omnipotence.askdefine.com/ 

According to The Blackwell dictionary of Western philosophy and Thesaurus dictionary quoted several authors argue that Omnipotence is a power that transcends all understanding and human perception and so that omnipotence breaks logic (paradox of omnipotence), meaning: "God can make a rock so heavy that God can not lift it, and lift it anyways because he is omnipotent." It is the only way to properly explain omnipotence as to be able to do everything.

It is obvious this definition is subject to theological and philosophical connotations broader than those defined by Marvel. Next we see the reductionism and relativity about the definition of omnipotence by Marvel which differs greatly from the above definition:

Omnipotence by Marvel:

“All-powerful. The term is also used generically to describe numerous beings possessing vast power, which, although not unlimited, by far surpasses that of most sentient beings. Among the known so-called omnipotents are Galactus, the Celestials, the Watchers, the Stranger, the Living Tribunal, and others.”

Source:

http://marvel.wikia.com/Glossary:Omnipotent

Marvel official glossary states generically referred to within the meaning of Omnipotence beings who have a vast power (not unlimited) and exceeds that of most sentient beings, so they are so-called omnipotent.

It’s clear that they are all cosmic physical beings (The Celestials, The Watchers, Galactus) and abstract cosmic entities (Eternity, Oblivion, Death) belong to the -616- universe and they do not have unlimited powers and can be rightly so-called omnipotent by Marvel’s definition. Conversely, the Omnipotent term (theological and and philosophically ) is reserved for TOAA (ultimate God) who has the true and ultimate omnipotence, ie, infinite power to do whatever he wants without restrictions, as Marvel implied and I have explained before.

Shuma Gorath is also regarded as omnipotent in its realm defined by Marve,l because it does have vast magical powers, but not unlimited.

Also Cyttorak fits perfectly into the definition of the Omnipotent according Marvel but unlike the others, his magic powers are truly unlimited or limitless on his pocket realm. However, Cyttorak would not be Omnipotent (according to the theological and philosophical definition) despite having infinite magic power, because Cyttorak has infinite power only to do several things within his own realm (restriction) but not to do anything he wishes or impossible things for him. So Cyttorak’s skills on CC are: to have infinite power to invulnerability (Cyttorak is an abstract magic entity and he will be taking any physical humanoid image or form if he wishes to communicate with physical or sentient beings without allowing him to be hurt); to have infinite power to super strength, durability and indestructibility, guaranteeing essentially immortality. Cyttorak can shape his crimson bands and make them as strong as he wishes (tentacles, circles and crimson rings). Usually the magic users can invoke the Crimson Bands shaped as rings, thick circles, a box, a large gem, and so forth, whatever the magic user desires and are almost always used to restrain or imprison an enemy. Also may be manipulated like a rope for pulling others out of danger. Cyttorak can teleport things or beings in time or between multiple dimensions; he can create simple forms of life (elves). Besides, is totally a fact that his endless or limitless magic is the source of many powerful magic users or wielders sorceress, such as: The Ancient One, Dr. Strange, Baron Mordo, Dr. Doom, Morgan Le Fay, Demonicus, Azrael, Kaecilus, Augustyne Phiffe, Jacob Roark, etc, and mystical entities such as: Zom, Dormammu and Umar, including his evil avatar of the destruction, of course, the Juggernaut.

Furthermore, Cyttorak is an immensely powerful mystical abstract deity (limitless elemental magic power) which is the only one who is both God and Demon unlike the others mystic beings. However, the most important feature of Cyttorak as an Omnipotent entity is he does have more power than other Omnipotent (according Marvel) beings such as: LT, The Celestials, Shuma Gorath, Mikaboshi, The Stranger, Galactus, etc. because Cyttorak’s magic power is infinite/endless/limitless/unlimited in his own imprisoned essence (The crimson pocket universe). This is the infinitely the great difference that puts Cyttorak superior to all of them, but only on Crimson Cosmos.

Living Tribunal is second in command after TOAA within the Multiverse but not interfere on the Crimson Cosmos/ Cyttorak. The crimson cosmos itself is Cyttorak and therefore, LT has no control over someone who has infinite magical powers in his own essence, and even more knowing that LT defined by Marvel is a cosmic entity with vast cosmic powers (a Nigh-Omnipotent according to the our theology/philosophy definition or Omnipotent according to Marvel), but not unlimited. Therefore, the only one who judges everything what happens or concerns into crimson cosmos is Cyttorak.

This was already demonstrated along this threat but I will show one last time.

Shuma Gorath was beaten two times by a mortal, but a mortal who is called the Supreme Sorcerer Dr. Stephen Strange. First, Strange overpowered Shuma powers after he drained all the energies from Arioch (Demon/Magician, which magic powers were clearly vast but limited), doing this, Dr. Strange physically defeated Shuma Gorath, by destroying it, but due to the large amounts of evil magic energies absorbed, Shuma Gorath was emerging within Strange. However, the “tiny motes” of humanity remained of Strange was so powerful that not only was able to drain and manipulate at his will the Arioch’s magic energies, Dr. Strange was able to have enough willpower and determination to complete his mission: to save the earth and defeat once and for all Shuma Gorath’s physical consciousness temporally. For this, Strange impaled himself to sacrifice his ego and thus prevent future spells to the rebirth of Shuma Gorath. In this way, Strange defeated Shuma Gorath and this clearly represents a form of victory for Strange and a way to defeat Shuma Gorath. Want to admit it or not, Shuma Gorath was absolutely defeated by Dr. Strange.

Strange clearly defeated Shuma Gorath preventing its fusion with him, even it was reiterated by Dr. Strange without ego and Kaluu after telling what happened in his battle, where he clearly tells him he defeated the Lord of Chaos. This fact explains why a No-ego Strange had so destructive energies accumulated when Kaluu helped him to burn or release some of that energy when Kaluu took him by traveling through different astral planes. Clearly these energies absorbed from Arioch were totally finite or limited (These energies would have a destructive effect only on galaxy buster level). This fact shows the limitation of the magical energies from Arioch/Shuma Gorath and their defeat at the hands of Doc Strange on their own realm (A Demon/ Magician like Arioch was drained and forced to be merged completely by a mortal, pathetic).

I do take this irrefutable evidence to put down the belief of Shuma Gorath produces in massive amounts its own magical energies. Unfortunately, Shuma Gorath out of its realm does not produce its own magical energies and is subject to drain or prey upon the energy-life of other beings to produce its own magic powers. Shuma Gorath here, clearly, could not produce its own magical energies, not even was able to do any magical power because it was so weak and hungry that sadly it had no mystical powers and it was with the priority needs to consume the energies from others to at least to recover its strength. Pity.

Is this a clear evidence of the limited capacity of Shuma Gorath to produce magical powers?

Absolutely, Yes. Shuma Gorath was defeated again by a mortal (Dr. Strange), Shuma Gorath does not produce its own magical energies without requiring sustenance of the life energies from others.

Here clearly, Shuma Gorath was defeated by Strange for the second time. Dr. Strange carried Shuma Gorath to Stonehenge to banish it to a dimension of no return although this it left him seriously injured. For those who ignore the role of Dr. Strange in all the defeats of Shuma Gorath, here, he was able to connect his own life force to the arcane ambient mystic energies of the surrounding environment of Stonehenge in order to create an interdimensional gateway to banish Shuma, ie, he used all his mystic powers and knowledge in the study of the Egocentric and Ecocentric magic to open an interdimensional gateway on Stonehenge and banish Shuma. So here, he won again and beat Shumawithhisown means.

What is Shuma Gorath?
According to the Marvel definitions, Shuma Gorath is an extradimensional Class 3 Demon, and a demon is:

If we analyze the third definition, which I think looks the most complete, we note Shuma Gorath lives to prey upon lower life energies forms, draining their energies to produce its own and survive (this is confirmed in the above scan which Shuma Gorath appears weak and hungry, without its own magical powers but with the need to absorb energy from Sue Storm and the rest of the Fantastic Four). Shuma Gorath can only gain power in one way: stealing energy from an unwilling source by consuming the source entirely or by draining a portion of energy from the source, like when Shuma Gorath was unconsciously stealing the energies from Sise-Neg. So, this exchange is one-way, so the demon only takes energy.

Conversely, Cyttorak is a Deity whose conception of himself is beyond good and evil; he would prefer to be God or Demon or both, but unlike Shuma Gorath (who is only chaos and pure evil that needs to prey upon the lives (energies) from others to sustain their own), Cyttorak doesn’t need to take energy from anyone, or he doesn’t need to be paid with human souls to sustain and increase its power when the petitioners invoked him (as happens with other Elder Gods or Demons such as: Chthon, Mephisto, Sattanish or the same Shuma Gorath) because Cyttorak is just limitless, endless, infinite elemental magic energy himself. Because of this, Cyttorak can grant magic energy, even spiritual power to a petitioner in answer to an invocation or prayer in the proper way. However, Cyttorak also may chose to ignore the request, depending the innate spiritual energy or the “mystic potential” and knowledge of the mystic arts (study of the three fundamentally mystical sources or “Paths to Enlightenment”, according to the book of the Vishanti: Egocentric, Ecocentric and Exocentric magic) present in the petitioner or magic user due it plays an important part in how often request are granted by Cyttorak. In short, has to be a powerful and skilled sorcerer, magician or mystic entities that can be benefited by invoking his powers as I’ve mentioned above (The Ancient One, Dr. Strange, Baron Mordo, Dr. Doom, Morgan Le Fay, Demonicus, Azrael, Kaecilus, Augustyne Phiffe, Jacob Roark, etc and mystical entities such as: Zom, Dormammu and Umar, including his avatar, of course, the Juggernaut). Also Cyttorak can be given spiritual energy unconditionally in the form of worship for the worshippers for a petition of favor or even without expect nothing in return because they know about his existence.

Is a fact, demons of the Third Class like Shuma Gorath according the OHOTMU only have one way to gain power: “to be a parasitic form of quasi-mystical superhuman life, requiring sustenance of some sort (generally "souls" or life essences) from lesser creatures (like man) in order to live." And so it was proved, Shuma Gorath has the need to rule hundreds of dimensions or worlds for self-sustaining energy by absorbing of those lesser creatures. Even from the event against Sise-Neg, Shuma Gorath unknowingly or unconsciously it was stealing his energies; moreover, it was living on the Earth stealing energies (feasting) from humans-apes during prehistory. Therefore, Shuma Gorath is a life preying-demon so-called dark god.

This fully demonstrated Shuma Gorath is a demon who never had unlimited magical powers on its realm and less outside it.

In summary, according to the Marvel definitions above, is described the traits and characteristics which define perfectly Shuma Gorath, who is the leader of the Old Ones (ancient demons race whose inhabited the earth before the man appeared) whose form and functions degenerated forced it to consume or prey the energy lives from others in order to feed itself and produce its magical powers. Also, Shuma Gorath lives in others dimensions and had vast magical powers (energies consumed from hundreds of worlds) that allowed it manipulate magical energies only a planetary scale (which justifies its defeat against Strange), indicating well the limitation of its magical powers, unlike Cyttorak which is truly, factually limitless. This clearly confirms the lower, dwarfed and thwarted demonic nature of Shuma Gorath against Cyttorak, as it was demonstrated before.

Therefore, all these evidences show the energy of Shuma Gorath unlike those of Cyttorak are quite limited and he can be defeated by Strange in his own dimension and out of this, conversely, Strange can not even to do nothing against Cyttorak, who is much more powerful (this event against Shuma with prep were chronologically identified as an important experience/knowledge that allowed him to mature more as a sorcerer supreme and protector of mankind).

Unlike Shuma Gorath, conversely, the Supreme Sorcerer was pretty owned by Cyttorak on several ocassions:

As I like to find the fairness of things against the fanboyism or the biased subjective of assessment of “cool characters” over old characters so powerful that for the same reason rarely are reported. I will expose all the evidence about why Cyttorak overpowers Shuma Gorath.   (^__^) (^ O ^)

I begin by clarifying some terms that lend to utter confusion.

Begin to understand what means the term Omnipotence in its absolute and relative sense:

( A BUNCH OF DICTIONARY QUOTES)

Shuma Gorath is also regarded as omnipotent in its realm defined by Marvel, because it does have vast magical powers, but not unlimited.

Also Cyttorak fits perfectly into the definition of the Omnipotent according Marvel but unlike the others, his magic powers are truly unlimited or limitless on his pocket realm. 

However, Cyttorak would not be Omnipotent (according to the theological and philosophical definition) despite having infinite magic power, because Cyttorak has infinite power only to do several things within his own realm (restriction) but not to do anything he wishes or impossible things for him.

So Cyttorak’s skills on CC are: to have infinite power to invulnerability (Cyttorak is an abstract magic entity and he will be taking any physical humanoid image or form if he wishes to communicate with physical or sentient beings without allowing him to be hurt)

  to have infinite power to super strength, durability and indestructibility, guaranteeing essentially immortality.

Cyttorak can shape his crimson bands and make them as strong as he wishes (tentacles, circles and crimson rings).

Cyttorak can shape his crimson bands and make them as strong as he wishes (tentacles, circles and crimson rings). Usually the magic users can invoke the Crimson Bands shaped as rings, thick circles, a box, a large gem, and so forth, whatever the magic user desires and are almost always used to restrain or imprison an enemy.

Cyttorak can teleport things or beings in time or between multiple dimensions

 Besides, is totally a fact that his endless or limitless magic is the source of many powerful magic users or wielders sorceress, such as: The Ancient One, Dr. Strange, Baron Mordo, Dr. Doom, Morgan Le Fay, Demonicus, Azrael, Kaecilus, Augustyne Phiffe, Jacob Roark, etc, and mystical entities such as: Zom, Dormammu and Umar, including his evil avatar of the destruction, of course, the Juggernaut.

Furthermore, Cyttorak is an immensely powerful mystical abstract deity (limitless elemental magic power) which is the only one who is both God and Demon unlike the others mystic beings.

However, the most important feature of Cyttorak as an Omnipotent entity is he does have more power than other Omnipotent (according Marvel) beings such as: LT, The Celestials, Shuma Gorath, Mikaboshi, The Stranger, Galactus, etc. because Cyttorak’s magic power is infinite/endless/limitless/unlimited in his own imprisoned essence (The crimson pocket universe). This is the infinitely the great difference that puts Cyttorak superior to all of them, but only on Crimson Cosmos.

Living Tribunal is second in command after TOAA within the Multiverse but not interfere on the Crimson Cosmos/ Cyttorak.

The crimson cosmos itself is Cyttorak and therefore, LT has no control over someone who has infinite magical powers in his own essence, and even more knowing that LT defined by Marvel is a cosmic entity with vast cosmic powers (a Nigh-Omnipotent according to the our theology/philosophy definition or Omnipotent according to Marvel), but not unlimited. Therefore, the only one who judges everything what happens or concerns into crimson cosmos is Cyttorak.

With respect to Cyttorak's exile, all that is known is Cyttorak had limited influence on the earth during the prehistoric time at the moment when he was banished from it , that alone justifies the reason for his banishment under unknown circumstances by someone unknown. This is not an indicator which demonstrates the superiority of someone over Cyttorak, unless TOAA was who did it (but it is a speculation of mine that I can not prove) . The only thing we can deduce is that "limited influence" of Cyttorak on earth could not be destroyed and so it was banished to CC or himself.

The only thing we can deduce is that Cyttorak can not be destroyed and due he can not be destroyed he was exiled, but the question is: How do you exile someone who is infinite crimson magic himself? If I may deduct, would be only and just only by enclosing himself, ie, infinite energy was contained in an infinity container. Hence, the Crimson Cosmos is his prison but also is the same Cyttorak in oneself.   

Cyttorak is a Deity and by par excellence is a God, also one half of him is a Demon by his most destructive aspect because Cyttorak is the Lord of Oblivion and Master of the Raging Storm.

Therefore, the Oblivion, Entropy and Death are subject under Cyttorak's orders as part of the repertoire of his most destructive and evil aspect.

The irrefutable logic and evidence of this is there is no time on Cyttorak/CC (Conversely, the entire physical Universe, the Multiverse and Omniverse can die and be eaten by the Oblivion or the Outer Void because there is time, these realities are subject or ruled by the continuity of space-time and physical laws but all physical laws are Ruled by Magic).

Cyttorak is infinitely eternal and immortal/unkillable due he is essentially limitless magic power; also he has existed for billions of years, long before the -616- Universe or even may be before the Multiverse itself. The Lord of Oblivion (void, nonexistence) is oldest than the Lord of Chaos.

If we look at the facts, Shuma Gorath’s feats compared only to one of the "little shows" that loom over the Cyttorak’s powers are completely inferior, if Shuma Gorath was able to manipulate magical energies on a planetary scale and may have a destructive effect to shatter some galaxies is absolutely dwarfed with fact which a fraction of the Crimson energies plundered by D'Spayre from the Juggernaut was much power, to the point he could manipulate the very fabric of the universe itself at his will and conduit the Oblivion or the Outer Void where he wanted, being the most powerful of all in the Universe.

Even Marvel official sources have publicly stated and demonstrated the only abstract being who has limitless magic power in his own essence is Cyttorak

nobody else has it.

The rest of the powerful abstract mystical beings as Agamotto, Hoggoth and Osthur (The Vishanti) or Chthon

So Cyttorak doesn’t need tons of feats just to prove he does have limitless magic power on his own turf or he is the most powerful simply because he doesn’t need it

nobody can defeat him on CC, he is invincible, nobody has the Omnipotence to overpower him or dwarf him, nobody can fight or destroy someone who has unlimited magic power to what I mentioned above. Nobody can control, beat, destroy or drain the power which is limitless from him, ie, nobody can beat him, destroy, control or drain all the limitless magic power of Cyttorak/Crimson Bands, which infinitely overpowers their own abilities, skills and vast magic powers (but limited) from others like Shuma Gorath.

Moreover, the facts explained about Cyttorak are clear and noticeably supported by Marvel creators who have full control and authority over the comics and their characters. They stated and shown publicly on several occasions: Cyttorak is a magical being immensely powerful because he has unlimited magic power. The most recent and forceful statement: “Cyttorak is likely above Shuma Gorath” (stated by the executive editor and Senior Vice President of Marvel publishing Tom Brevoort, who has edited and supervised personally many occurrences of Shuma Gorath and Cyttorak respectively (Avengers # 24-25, 29/2000, Thor # 17/1999, Deadline # 1/2002, etc.) is sufficiently clear and reiterates 100 % the fact Cyttorak overpowers Shuma Gorath in all senses. 

Even the Vice President of Marvel gives me reason about Cyttorak is superior to Shuma Gorath. Wait, Why doesn't surprise me this? is obvious.

But wait, now what are the evidences that put or exploit the Shuma Gorath’s weakness?

This was already demonstrated along this threat but I will show one last time.

Shuma Gorath was beaten two times by a mortal

Shuma Gorath was beaten two times by a mortal, but a mortal who is called the Supreme Sorcerer Dr. Stephen Strange. First, Strange overpowered Shuma powers after he drained all the energies from Arioch (Demon/Magician, which magic powers were clearly vast but limited), doing this, Dr. Strange physically defeated Shuma Gorath, by destroying it, but due to the large amounts of evil magic energies absorbed, Shuma Gorath was emerging within Strange. However, the “tiny motes” of humanity remained of Strange was so powerful that not only was able to drain and manipulate at his will the Arioch’s magic energies, Dr. Strange was able to have enough willpower and determination to complete his mission: to save the earth and defeat once and for all Shuma Gorath’s physical consciousness temporally. For this, Strange impaled himself to sacrifice his ego and thus prevent future spells to the rebirth of Shuma Gorath. In this way, Strange defeated Shuma Gorath and this clearly represents a form of victory for Strange and a way to defeat Shuma Gorath. Want to admit it or not, Shuma Gorath was absolutely defeated by Dr. Strange. 

In this way Strange defeated Shuma Gorath and this clearly represents a form of victory for Strange and a way to defeat Shuma Gorath. Sorry.

Strange clearly defeated Shuma Gorath preventing its fusion with him, even it was reiterated by Dr. Strange without ego and Kaluu after telling what happened in his battle, where he clearly tells him he defeated the Lord of Chaos. This fact explains why a No-ego Strange had so destructive energies accumulated when Kaluu helped him to burn or release some of that energy when he took him by traveling through different astral planes. Clearly these energies absorbed from Shuma Gorath were totally finite or limited. This fact shows the limitation of the magical energies of Shuma Gorath and its defeat at the hands of Doc Strange on its own realm.

 

It's funny how some people intend to do to see the facts distorted in favor of praise and to glorify Shuma (like if he had had won all battles against Strange)

(only by fanboyism)

@kenshiroo

and without coherent argument when they say that it was "Shuma who destroyed itself"

@kenshiroo

completely ignoring the role of Dr. Strange in his battle. Shuma Gorath was in its own realm and, yet with all its powers to 100%, were not sufficient to kill or destroy a mortal, so all its plans to rule the earth were frustrated and it was defeated by the "tiny motes” of memories remained from the essence of a powerful mortal: Dr. Strange.

@kenshiroo

Shuma Gorath was clearly defeated by Strange, like it or not

@kenshiroo

and this explains itself how Shuma’s magical powers are totally limited even on its own turf

@kenshiroo

If Shuma had been as powerful as someone unsuccessfully, would have us believe, then it had never been defeated by a mortal (Dr. Strange) and had no storyline in the comic.

The second time Strange faced a weak and hungry Shuma Gorath, Strange transported Shuma to Stonehenge to banish it again. Here again, it was demonstrated the Shuma Gorath qualities like a demon, which needs to take upon the life energies of living beings to create its own powers.

Is this a clear evidence of the limited capacity of Shuma Gorath to produce magical powers?

Absolutely, Yes.

 Shuma Gorath was defeated again by a mortal (Dr. Strange), Shuma Gorath does not produce its own magical energies without requiring sustenance of the life energies from others.

Here clearly, Shuma Gorath was defeated by Strange for the second time. Dr. Strange carried Shuma Gorath to Stonehenge to banish it to a dimension of no return although this it left him seriously injured. For those who ignore the role of Dr. Strange in all the defeats of Shuma Gorath, here, he was able to connect his own life force to the arcane ambient mystic energies of the surrounding environment of Stonehenge in order to create an interdimensional gateway to banish Shuma, ie, he used all his mystic powers and knowledge in the study of the Egocentric and Ecocentric magic to open an interdimensional gateway on Stonehenge and banish Shuma. So here, he won again and beat Shuma with his own means.

The second time Strange faced a weak and hungry Shuma Gorath, Strange transported Shuma to Stonehenge to banish it again. Here again, it was demonstrated the Shuma Gorath qualities like a demon, which needs to take upon the life energies of living beings to create its own powers.

I do take this irrefutable evidence to put down the belief of Shuma Gorath produces in massive amounts its own magical energies.

Now, I will begin to clarify some conceptions about the nature of Shuma Gorath and why it does being clearly inferior to Cyttorak.

What is Shuma Gorath?
According to the Marvel definitions, Shuma Gorath is an extradimensional Class 3 Demon, and a demon is:

1) “A godlike being whose form and functions have degenerated so it preys upon the living in some way.” Source: http://marvel.com/universe/Glossary:D

Is a fact, demons of the Third Class like Shuma Gorath according the OHOTMU only have one way to gain power: “to be a parasitic form of quasi-mystical superhuman life, requiring sustenance of some sort (generally "souls" or life essences) from lesser creatures (like man) in order to live."

 2) 

Source: OHOTMU (1991)

Is a fact, demons of the Third Class like Shuma Gorath according the OHOTMU only have one way to gain power: “to be a parasitic form of quasi-mystical superhuman life, requiring sustenance of some sort (generally "souls" or life essences) from lesser creatures (like man) in order to live."

@kenshiroo

This fully demonstrated Shuma Gorath is a demon who never had unlimited magical powers on its realm and less outside it.

@kenshiroo

In summary, according to the Marvel definitions above, is described the traits and characteristics which define perfectly Shuma Gorath, who is the leader of the Old Ones (ancient demons race whose inhabited the earth before the man appeared) whose form and functions degenerated forced it to consume or prey the energy lives from others in order to feed itself and produce its magical powers.

@kenshiroo

Also, Shuma Gorath lives in others dimensions and had vast magical powers (energies consumed from hundreds of worlds) that allowed it manipulate magical energies only a planetary scale (which justifies its defeat against Strange)

@kenshiroo

 indicating well the limitation of its magical powers, unlike Cyttorak which is truly, factually limitless.

@kenshiroo

 This clearly confirms the lower, dwarfed and thwarted demonic nature of Shuma Gorath against Cyttorak, as it was demonstrated before.

@kenshiroo

Therefore, all these evidences show the energy of Shuma Gorath unlike those of Cyttorak are quite limited and he can be defeated by Strange in his own dimension

@kenshiroo

Strange can not even to do nothing against Cyttorak, who is much more powerful (this event against Shuma with prep were chronologically identified as an important experience/knowledge that allowed him to mature more as a sorcerer supreme and protector of mankind).

@kenshiroo

Unlike Shuma Gorath, conversely, the Supreme Sorcerer was pretty owned by Cyttorak on several ocassions:

(Several scans that don't show in the least how Cyttorak would fare against Shuma-Gorath)

with all the evidence presented, is a real and powerful fact Cyttorak utterly destroys Shuma Gorath. Cyttorak outclasses and overpowers Shuma in every way. (^__^) (^ O ^) "

7) Caused a guy who was near the end of his journey in absorbing all the magical energy in Marvel to hesitate and resort to putting him to sleep before Shuma realized his presence (wasn't sure even with all that power if he could defeat Shuma)

" @kenshiroo:

@kenshiroo said:

As I like to find the fairness of things against the fanboyism or the biased subjective of assessment of “cool characters” over old characters so powerful that for the same reason rarely are reported. I will expose all the evidence about why Cyttorak overpowers Shuma Gorath.   (^__^) (^ O ^)

Good luck.

@kenshiroo said:

I begin by clarifying some terms that lend to utter confusion.

Begin to understand what means the term Omnipotence in its absolute and relative sense:

( A BUNCH OF DICTIONARY QUOTES)

Cool story bro.

@kenshiroo said:

Shuma Gorath is also regarded as omnipotent in its realm defined by Marvel, because it does have vast magical powers, but not unlimited.

All gods carry the "omnipotent" claim within their realms - that is until someone of higher power comes in and dominates them. So in that sense, everyone other than TOAA or a Supreme Being (like the Infinity Being) has vast but not unlimited powers.

@kenshiroo said:

Also Cyttorak fits perfectly into the definition of the Omnipotent according Marvel but unlike the others, his magic powers are truly unlimited or limitless on his pocket realm. 

Virtually  unlimited or limitless. Those are very different things.

 @kenshiroo said:

However, Cyttorak would not be Omnipotent (according to the theological and philosophical definition) despite having infinite magic power, because Cyttorak has infinite power only to do several things within his own realm (restriction) but not to do anything he wishes or impossible things for him.

I'm holding you to this for any arguments from you later about Cyttorak being able to do anything he wants.  Remember you said this.

 @kenshiroo said:

So Cyttorak’s skills on CC are: to have infinite power to invulnerability (Cyttorak is an abstract magic entity and he will be taking any physical humanoid image or form if he wishes to communicate with physical or sentient beings without allowing him to be hurt)

 Cyttorak is not an abstract. I would love to know what abstract concept he is supposed to represent. Do tell.

 @kenshiroo said:

  to have infinite power to super strength, durability and indestructibility, guaranteeing essentially immortality.

 Nothing special. All gods and have super strength, durability, varying levels of indestructibility, and are by definition immortal.

 @kenshiroo said:

Cyttorak can shape his crimson bands and make them as strong as he wishes (tentacles, circles and crimson rings).

And yet others have broken out of his Crimson Bands when he has tried to restrain them.

 @kenshiroo said:

Cyttorak can shape his crimson bands and make them as strong as he wishes (tentacles, circles and crimson rings). Usually the magic users can invoke the Crimson Bands shaped as rings, thick circles, a box, a large gem, and so forth, whatever the magic user desires and are almost always used to restrain or imprison an enemy.

  You see, almost always. His Crimson Bands have been broken out of quite a few times, whether manifested by himself or others.

 @kenshiroo said:

Cyttorak can teleport things or beings in time or between multiple dimensions

 Funny how he cannot escape his own pocket realm, then. Not even a reason given as to why. He's just stuck there.

 @kenshiroo said:

 Besides, is totally a fact that his endless or limitless magic is the source of many powerful magic users or wielders sorceress, such as: The Ancient One, Dr. Strange, Baron Mordo, Dr. Doom, Morgan Le Fay, Demonicus, Azrael, Kaecilus, Augustyne Phiffe, Jacob Roark, etc, and mystical entities such as: Zom, Dormammu and Umar, including his evil avatar of the destruction, of course, the Juggernaut.

 And Shuma-Gorath is/has been served by the following: Arioch, The Baby God, The Brain-Ship, Dagoth, Ebora, Erlik Khan, The Gatekeeper, Ghaszaszh Nyirh, Kathulos, Khats, Kulan Gath, The Living Buddha, N'Gabthoth, Nicholas Scratch, Nightmare, The Serpent Men of Starkesboro, Sligguth, Vammatar, The Water Elemental.

@kenshiroo said:

Furthermore, Cyttorak is an immensely powerful mystical abstract deity (limitless elemental magic power) which is the only one who is both God and Demon unlike the others mystic beings.

A few things wrong with this. 1) As I already pointed out, Cyttorak is not an abstract. 2) Cyttorak is not the only one both God and Demon. Shuma-Gorath refers to itself as a God and has been stated as a God through on-panel narration. When a bio contradicts on-panel statements, guess which one wins?

@kenshiroo said:

However, the most important feature of Cyttorak as an Omnipotent entity is he does have more power than other Omnipotent (according Marvel) beings such as: LT, The Celestials, Shuma Gorath, Mikaboshi, The Stranger, Galactus, etc. because Cyttorak’s magic power is infinite/endless/limitless/unlimited in his own imprisoned essence (The crimson pocket universe). This is the infinitely the great difference that puts Cyttorak superior to all of them, but only on Crimson Cosmos.

(Citation Needed)

* P.S. Saying "according to Marvel" isn't a citation.

 @kenshiroo said:

Living Tribunal is second in command after TOAA within the Multiverse but not interfere on the Crimson Cosmos/ Cyttorak.

 More fallacious claims. The Crimson Cosmos is within the Marvel Omniverse. The Living Tribunal has jurisdiction over it. He just never goes there because Cyttorak just sits on his butt all day long playing with elf children while his almighty avatar robs jewelry.

 @kenshiroo said:

The crimson cosmos itself is Cyttorak and therefore, LT has no control over someone who has infinite magical powers in his own essence, and even more knowing that LT defined by Marvel is a cosmic entity with vast cosmic powers (a Nigh-Omnipotent according to the our theology/philosophy definition or Omnipotent according to Marvel), but not unlimited. Therefore, the only one who judges everything what happens or concerns into crimson cosmos is Cyttorak.

 Your conclusions are peculiar. The Crimson Cosmos is Cyttorak so therefore the Living Tribunal has no jurisdiction over it? There is absolutely no correlation between the Living Tribunal's boundaries and whether a pocket realm is or isn't a deity itself. The Living Tribunal has jurisdiction over the entire Marvel universe including everything within it. If Cyttorak was threatening cosmic balance the Living Tribunal would stop him, but Cyttorak is stuck in his Crimson Cosmos and has never threatened the cosmic order,  so Living Tribunal has no reason to meddle with Cyttorak's business.

 @kenshiroo said:

With respect to Cyttorak's exile, all that is known is Cyttorak had limited influence on the earth during the prehistoric time at the moment when he was banished from it , that alone justifies the reason for his banishment under unknown circumstances by someone unknown. This is not an indicator which demonstrates the superiority of someone over Cyttorak, unless TOAA was who did it (but it is a speculation of mine that I can not prove) . The only thing we can deduce is that "limited influence" of Cyttorak on earth could not be destroyed and so it was banished to CC or himself.

 We can sit here and deduce things all day but it doesn't demonstrate in the least how Cyttorak is supposed to be superior to all the others you mentioned like Shuma-Gorath and the Living Tribunal.

 @kenshiroo said:

The only thing we can deduce is that Cyttorak can not be destroyed and due he can not be destroyed he was exiled, but the question is: How do you exile someone who is infinite crimson magic himself? If I may deduct, would be only and just only by enclosing himself, ie, infinite energy was contained in an infinity container. Hence, the Crimson Cosmos is his prison but also is the same Cyttorak in oneself.   

 Yea, Cyttorak cannot be destroyed yet he can be beat up and knocked out by his own avatar. In fact, in  Dr. Strange III #44 Cyttorak was unconscious after getting the gem ripped out of his forehead by Juggernaut and stayed that way until the gem was placed back in his head by Nova. That's a pretty glaring weakness right there, wouldn't you say? Simply rip the gem from his forehead and he goes down. And you realize that Cyttorak being the realm itself doesn't mean much at all? Like what Galactus started to do to Mephisto's realm, a powerful enough being could destroy the realm itself.

@kenshiroo said:

Cyttorak is a Deity and by par excellence is a God, also one half of him is a Demon by his most destructive aspect because Cyttorak is the Lord of Oblivion and Master of the Raging Storm.

Kay.

@kenshiroo said:

Therefore, the Oblivion, Entropy and Death are subject under Cyttorak's orders as part of the repertoire of his most destructive and evil aspect.

 Not one on-panel instance supports this. Cyttorak having aliases does not equate to abstracts being dependent on him.

@kenshiroo said:

The irrefutable logic and evidence of this is there is no time on Cyttorak/CC (Conversely, the entire physical Universe, the Multiverse and Omniverse can die and be eaten by the Oblivion or the Outer Void because there is time, these realities are subject or ruled by the continuity of space-time and physical laws but all physical laws are Ruled by Magic).

 
What? That is utter fabrication. Cyttorak's Crimson Cosmos is merely a pocket realm within the Marvel universe.

 @kenshiroo said:

Cyttorak is infinitely eternal and immortal/unkillable due he is essentially limitless magic power; also he has existed for billions of years, long before the -616- Universe or even may be before the Multiverse itself. The Lord of Oblivion (void, nonexistence) is oldest than the Lord of Chaos.

No. No to just everything in here. Cyttorak and every other abstract and god was created after the suicide of the Infinity Being, which created the original universe. The first creation was made by the Infinity Being with its Big Bang from the void, which created all of the abstracts and deities.
 

@kenshiroo said:

If we look at the facts, Shuma Gorath’s feats compared only to one of the "little shows" that loom over the Cyttorak’s powers are completely inferior, if Shuma Gorath was able to manipulate magical energies on a planetary scale and may have a destructive effect to shatter some galaxies is absolutely dwarfed with fact which a fraction of the Crimson energies plundered by D'Spayre from the Juggernaut was much power, to the point he could manipulate the very fabric of the universe itself at his will and conduit the Oblivion or the Outer Void where he wanted, being the most powerful of all in the Universe.

D'Spayre being overconfident and boastful. What else is new?. Cyttorak has never shown himself to be a universal buster and as such this is mere hyperbole.

@kenshiroo said:

Even Marvel official sources have publicly stated and demonstrated the only abstract being who has limitless magic power in his own essence is Cyttorak

Virtually limitless power of Cyttorak. Big difference.

@kenshiroo said:

nobody else has it.

 (Citation needed)
 
@kenshiroo said:

The rest of the powerful abstract mystical beings as Agamotto, Hoggoth and Osthur (The Vishanti) or Chthon

 None of which are abstracts, but okay...

@kenshiroo said:

So Cyttorak doesn’t need tons of feats just to prove he does have limitless magic power on his own turf or he is the most powerful simply because he doesn’t need it

 Yeah, no. Actually Cyttorak does. He needs feats of his own power or must demonstrate his ability to stand up to other deities who have large scale feats. That's how it works in the battle forums. Cyttorak has nothing to his name. You can't just pull out statements from nowhere. Well, actually you can but it doesn't have any substance behind it.  Good lord, this guy has become the Storm of Marvel's gods.

@kenshiroo said:

nobody can defeat him on CC, he is invincible, nobody has the Omnipotence to overpower him or dwarf him, nobody can fight or destroy someone who has unlimited magic power to what I mentioned above. Nobody can control, beat, destroy or drain the power which is limitless from him, ie, nobody can beat him, destroy, control or drain all the limitless magic power of Cyttorak/Crimson Bands, which infinitely overpowers their own abilities, skills and vast magic powers (but limited) from others like Shuma Gorath.

 All except the almighty Juggernaut owned Cyttorak himself by punching him repeatedly. Unfortunately for him he was connected with Cyttorak so he cut off his own power in the process. However, unfortunately for Cyttorak if anyone of moderate power comes in and starts punching him he will be done for seeing as how they won't be relying on Cyttorak for power. I guess Shuma could just whack Cyttorak with a tentacle and effectively KO him. Or once again, simply remove the ruby from his head  seeing as Cyttorak himself stated the source of his crimson cosmos is linked to the ruby on his head.

@kenshiroo said:

Moreover, the facts explained about Cyttorak are clear and noticeably supported by Marvel creators who have full control and authority over the comics and their characters. They stated and shown publicly on several occasions: Cyttorak is a magical being immensely powerful because he has unlimited magic power. The most recent and forceful statement: “Cyttorak is likely above Shuma Gorath” (stated by the executive editor and Senior Vice President of Marvel publishing Tom Brevoort, who has edited and supervised personally many occurrences of Shuma Gorath and Cyttorak respectively (Avengers # 24-25, 29/2000, Thor # 17/1999, Deadline # 1/2002, etc.) is sufficiently clear and reiterates 100 % the fact Cyttorak overpowers Shuma Gorath in all senses. 

Even the Vice President of Marvel gives me reason about Cyttorak is superior to Shuma Gorath. Wait, Why doesn't surprise me this? is obvious.

There are problems with this.

1) Tom Brevoort has never written a single issue involving Shuma-Gorath. His opinion on the matter has about as much worth as Stephanie Meyer.

The only author whose opinion would matter regarding the specific question would be Steve Englehart, as he wrote Shuma-Gorath's first Marvel appearances and has used Cyttorak in his writings before. This is merely proof that Brevoort doesn't know what the hell he is talking about. Shuma-Gorath and even Zom have both demonstrated they draw the attention of far more powerful entities. Cyttorak has only ever been noticed by the other featless members of the Octessence.

I'm sorry but one opinion from a single person in Marvel's staff who has never been directly related in a storyline revolving around Shuma-Gorath does not overturn years of on-panel feats and previously established powers.

@kenshiroo said:

But wait, now what are the evidences that put or exploit the Shuma Gorath’s weakness?

This was already demonstrated along this threat but I will show one last time.

Shuma Gorath was beaten two times by a mortal

Strange lost the first confrontation and won the two others by very special circumstances.

 @kenshiroo said:

Shuma Gorath was beaten two times by a mortal, but a mortal who is called the Supreme Sorcerer Dr. Stephen Strange. First, Strange overpowered Shuma powers after he drained all the energies from Arioch (Demon/Magician, which magic powers were clearly vast but limited), doing this, Dr. Strange physically defeated Shuma Gorath, by destroying it, but due to the large amounts of evil magic energies absorbed, Shuma Gorath was emerging within Strange. However, the “tiny motes” of humanity remained of Strange was so powerful that not only was able to drain and manipulate at his will the Arioch’s magic energies, Dr. Strange was able to have enough willpower and determination to complete his mission: to save the earth and defeat once and for all Shuma Gorath’s physical consciousness temporally. For this, Strange impaled himself to sacrifice his ego and thus prevent future spells to the rebirth of Shuma Gorath. In this way, Strange defeated Shuma Gorath and this clearly represents a form of victory for Strange and a way to defeat Shuma Gorath. Want to admit it or not, Shuma Gorath was absolutely defeated by Dr. Strange. 

In this way Strange defeated Shuma Gorath and this clearly represents a form of victory for Strange and a way to defeat Shuma Gorath. Sorry.

Strange clearly defeated Shuma Gorath preventing its fusion with him, even it was reiterated by Dr. Strange without ego and Kaluu after telling what happened in his battle, where he clearly tells him he defeated the Lord of Chaos. This fact explains why a No-ego Strange had so destructive energies accumulated when Kaluu helped him to burn or release some of that energy when he took him by traveling through different astral planes. Clearly these energies absorbed from Shuma Gorath were totally finite or limited. This fact shows the limitation of the magical energies of Shuma Gorath and its defeat at the hands of Doc Strange on its own realm.

 

 
I don't understand why you wish to continue pushing that it was Stephen Strange the mortal who defeated Shuma-Gorath. It wasn't.  Firstly, when Strange first encountered Shuma-Gorath within the Ancient One's mind, he was getting manhandled and had no hope of winning. He had to resort to killing the Ancient One's ego within his consciousness, merely to seal the gateway into 616. Even before that when seeing Shuma-Gorath with Sise-Neg, Strange had to beg Sise-Neg to take care of him. Secondly, it is expressly stated by Strange after he merges with Arioch that "Stephen Strange is no more". He even tells Shuma-Gorath that the only parts of Strange left in him are little motes. Strange merged with Arioch in absolutely no way, shape, or form = Doctor Strange as normal. Strange had to learn and wield the arts of black magic and fuse with Arioch. Not to mention he already had all of his knowledge as sorcerer supreme and artifacts from Cyttorak and the Vishanti, yet he couldn't harm Shuma-Gorath until he started to turn into him. Even after that Shuma had the nifty ability to cause whoever defeats him to turn into him, which is why Strange/Arioch/Shuma had to impale itself to prevent Shuma's consciousness from taking him over. It's just sad that you're trying to pass this of like Strange could defeat Shuma willy nilly when  Strange had to fuse with black magic, a being with infinite energy and turn into Shuma-Gorath, and then kill himself in order to save the earth, and then Shuma just re-manifested later anyway. Not to mention that when Strange's journey began he was running away from Shuma-Gorath's servants and getting his butt kicked and even got his eye taken out by one of them.


@kenshiroo said:

It's funny how some people intend to do to see the facts distorted in favor of praise and to glorify Shuma (like if he had had won all battles against Strange)

It's funny that you're trying to make it seem like Shuma-Gorath lost to Strange by being overpowered when Strange was getting his ass handed to him and had to rely on plot device to win on EVERY occasion, yea, even the weakened Shuma.

1st battle:

Doesn't look like Strange was doing any winning here. Had to kill his mentor to simply seal a dimensional barrier and escape with his life.

2nd battle:

You already posted. Yet you failed to mention the amount of prep Strange had garnered: Fusing with black magic, having artifacts of Cyttorak and the Vishanti, tons of prep time where he had to confront his servants and move up the ladder absorbing more energy as he went on, fusing with the chaos lord, Arioch, turning into Shuma-Gorath, forced to impale himself to prevent from being consumed. Strange's victory here was not normal Classic Strange. It was Classic Strange fueled with black magic/Arioch and Shuma-Gorath's essence.

3rd battle:

You posted Shuma-Gorath's low showing when he was weak and hungry from his long slumber. You seem to take this as if Shuma-Gorath needs to constantly feed otherwise he will end up like this, not taking into account that this was his first on-panel appearance since his battle with Strange meaning he had just manifested himself back together shortly beforehand. It's a special circumstance and not at all indicative of his power. That's like saying Galactus is < Fantastic Four because he's hungry and weak sometimes.   

 @kenshiroo said:

(only by fanboyism)

 
(Only by on-panel showings).

Funny, the fanboy behavior would be coming from the one making grandiose claims for someone essentially featless - Cyttorak.
 

@kenshiroo

said:

and without coherent argument when they say that it was "Shuma who destroyed itself"

 
 That's actually a very coherent argument. Strange turned into Shuma, wielded the earth replica created by Shuma, and hurled it at the original Shuma within the realm. On-panel.

 

@kenshiroo

said:

completely ignoring the role of Dr. Strange in his battle. Shuma Gorath was in its own realm and, yet with all its powers to 100%, were not sufficient to kill or destroy a mortal, so all its plans to rule the earth were frustrated and it was defeated by the "tiny motes” of memories remained from the essence of a powerful mortal: Dr. Strange.

 Shuma was not defeated by memories. What nonsense is that? The memories of Strange only served to let him remember his mission. The power necessary to destroy Shuma-Gorath came from Shuma's own energy. There's no way around this it's shown as such in the illustrations. Quit trying to pass off that Strange at normal levels beat Shuma-Gorath ever under normal circumstances.
 

@kenshiroo

said:

Shuma Gorath was clearly defeated by Strange, like it or not

 
Defeated by plot device in every single encounter, never defeated in a contest of straight power.
 

@kenshiroo

said:

and this explains itself how Shuma’s magical powers are totally limited even on its own turf

  Not really.
 

@kenshiroo

said:

If Shuma had been as powerful as someone unsuccessfully, would have us believe, then it had never been defeated by a mortal (Dr. Strange) and had no storyline in the comic.

 
Strange even states that he's "no more" when facing Shuma-Gorath in his realm. He was fused with a chaos lord. That =/= mere mortal. And in defeating Shuma-Gorath he had to become Shuma-Gorath a.k.a. a god. That was the whole point of the Nietzsche quote Shuma-Gorath stated "He who fights dragons becomes a dragon himself". 
 
@kenshiroo said:

The second time Strange faced a weak and hungry Shuma Gorath, Strange transported Shuma to Stonehenge to banish it again. Here again, it was demonstrated the Shuma Gorath qualities like a demon, which needs to take upon the life energies of living beings to create its own powers.

Shuma-Gorath is invoked for power by many demons and black magic practitioners, meaning it generates its own energy. Shuma-Gorath even demonstrated this by generating the earth replica. Shuma-Gorath's own power was causing Kaluu to go into a coma by being present. He even dominated Nightmare within his own dimension without even having to go there. That's further proof Shuma-Gorath has his own energy. He couldn't drain power from others if he didn't have his own inherent, great power to begin with. Shuma just has the added benefit of being able to absorb energy from others and draw from their power as well. Nobody is denying Shuma's leech-like qualities, but the problem is that you seem to think Shuma's power only comes from external forces when all evidence proves the contrary. Kulan Gath even invoked the name of Shuma-Gorath in order to try and attain his godhood. Shuma-Gorath needed to feed when summoned because he had been destroyed previously and sought nourishment after his long sleep. Shuma-Gorath doesn't need the power of mortals to use his magic powers, it's merely food to him. Unless you think Shuma-Gorath conquers dimensions by summoning the vast powers of prehistoric apes? lol

@kenshiroo said:

Is this a clear evidence of the limited capacity of Shuma Gorath to produce magical powers?

Not at all.
 
@kenshiroo said:

Absolutely, Yes.

Nope.

@kenshiroo said:

 Shuma Gorath was defeated again by a mortal (Dr. Strange), Shuma Gorath does not produce its own magical energies without requiring sustenance of the life energies from others.

Oh wow, Strange defeated a Shuma-Gorath that was collapsing over itself by transporting the both of them to Stonehenge and using the energy of the area to send Shuma-Gorath back to his dimension - big whoop. It's not like Strange almost died trying to simply BFR a weak Shuma, oh wait.

And yea, because Shuma-Gorath was shown to be unable to generate energy without feeding first? Wait, no he just gives power to those who invoke him and used his power to communicate to him from 1000 dimensions away. And you know, along with the other Many-Angled Ones empowered the Galactus Engine of the Cancerverse that was killing abstracts and Celestials. Does Cyttorak have any of these feats? Nope. But please, tell me how Shuma-Gorath was able to empower the Galactus Engine if he had no inherent powers of his own. Better yet, please say how others invoke him for spells.
 
@kenshiroo said:

Here clearly, Shuma Gorath was defeated by Strange for the second time. Dr. Strange carried Shuma Gorath to Stonehenge to banish it to a dimension of no return although this it left him seriously injured. For those who ignore the role of Dr. Strange in all the defeats of Shuma Gorath, here, he was able to connect his own life force to the arcane ambient mystic energies of the surrounding environment of Stonehenge in order to create an interdimensional gateway to banish Shuma, ie, he used all his mystic powers and knowledge in the study of the Egocentric and Ecocentric magic to open an interdimensional gateway on Stonehenge and banish Shuma. So here, he won again and beat Shuma with his own means.

You mean the Gateway a.k.a. Stonehenge's power. He would have died to a weak Shuma had it not been there.
 
@kenshiroo said:

The second time Strange faced a weak and hungry Shuma Gorath, Strange transported Shuma to Stonehenge to banish it again. Here again, it was demonstrated the Shuma Gorath qualities like a demon, which needs to take upon the life energies of living beings to create its own powers.

Shuma-Gorath's appearance in Avengers was a special case as he was recently manifested from physical destruction, of course he's going to need to recuperate in that instance. It's far more logical that that is the case then stating that Shuma needs to absorb from others to create his powers when Shuma-Gorath has been shown to generate his own mystical energy time after time, without having fed. The food is merely energy, but the powers he has are his own, unless you think apes give him the enormous power? No. His power comes from himself and he can increase that power by conquering universes.

Additionally, from his official Marvel bio: 

Shuma-Gorath is a extradimensional demon and is therefore immune to disease and aging.  In his native dimension he is virtually omnipotent. He generates his own mystical power, but is also able to draw energy, mystical or otherwise, from others.
 

@kenshiroo said:

I do take this irrefutable evidence to put down the belief of Shuma Gorath produces in massive amounts its own magical energies.

 See Marvel bio.

@kenshiroo said:

Now, I will begin to clarify some conceptions about the nature of Shuma Gorath and why it does being clearly inferior to Cyttorak.

Oh gawd.

 
@kenshiroo said:

What is Shuma Gorath?
According to the Marvel definitions, Shuma Gorath is an extradimensional Class 3 Demon, and a demon is:

1) “A godlike being whose form and functions have degenerated so it preys upon the living in some way.” Source: http://marvel.com/universe/Glossary:D

Is a fact, demons of the Third Class like Shuma Gorath according the OHOTMU only have one way to gain power: “to be a parasitic form of quasi-mystical superhuman life, requiring sustenance of some sort (generally "souls" or life essences) from lesser creatures (like man) in order to live."

 
Not all gods in the same category are exactly the same. There are varying levels of power and differences between them, even when in the same category. This is just a general rule. 
Shuma-Gorath is also stated to be the leader of the Great Old Ones, which Hoggoth is a part of, but do you see any similarities between Hoggoth and Shuma-Gorath? Yea, me neither.  Shuma-Gorath doesn't need to feast in order to live, but it does so because it is attracted to the energy it adds to his own. By saying Shuma needs these lesser beings to survive, you're effectively saying Shuma-Gorath would die without them. However, we know this isn't true because 1) Shuma-Gorath already resurrected himself from nothingness, showing that he cannot die 2) It was supported by Thanos, who stated that even Mistress Death couldn't permanently destroy the bodies of the "Undying Ones".


@kenshiroo said:

 2) 

Source: OHOTMU (1991)

I love how you just contradicted yourself with this. Notice how it says that demons possess their own magical powers?

 @kenshiroo said:

Is a fact, demons of the Third Class like Shuma Gorath according the OHOTMU only have one way to gain power: “to be a parasitic form of quasi-mystical superhuman life, requiring sustenance of some sort (generally "souls" or life essences) from lesser creatures (like man) in order to live."

Notice it says that that's how they gain power. It never states anywhere that they do not have their own inherent powers, as you love to so imply. And as explained above, Shuma-Gorath has been shown on-panel to not be able to die, effectively nullifying the idea that he absolutely needs to feed in order to live.
 

@kenshiroo

said:

This fully demonstrated Shuma Gorath is a demon who never had unlimited magical powers on its realm and less outside it.

Too bad Shuma-Gorath's bio states he is virtually omnipotent within his native realm.

I mean your argument is pretty much void at this point.

@kenshiroo

said:

In summary, according to the Marvel definitions above, is described the traits and characteristics which define perfectly Shuma Gorath, who is the leader of the Old Ones (ancient demons race whose inhabited the earth before the man appeared) whose form and functions degenerated forced it to consume or prey the energy lives from others in order to feed itself and produce its magical powers.

And part of the Many-Angled Ones, don't forget that.

 

@kenshiroo

said:

Also, Shuma Gorath lives in others dimensions and had vast magical powers (energies consumed from hundreds of worlds) that allowed it manipulate magical energies only a planetary scale (which justifies its defeat against Strange)

 
Ugh, quit adding your own unsupported commentary. Shuma-Gorath generates its own mystical power, shown on-panel and bio supported. That doesn't justify Shuma's defeat against Strange. Apparently you couldn't comprehend the darn story. Strange won because he became Shuma, not because of this non-existing weakness you wish Shuma-Gorath had.

 

@kenshiroo

said:

 indicating well the limitation of its magical powers, unlike Cyttorak which is truly, factually limitless.

 
Virtually limitless, and only within the Crimson Cosmos, which Shuma-Gorath could just destroy and absorb, btw.

 

@kenshiroo

said:

 This clearly confirms the lower, dwarfed and thwarted demonic nature of Shuma Gorath against Cyttorak, as it was demonstrated before.

 
You didn't really demonstrate anything.

 

@kenshiroo

said:

Therefore, all these evidences show the energy of Shuma Gorath unlike those of Cyttorak are quite limited and he can be defeated by Strange in his own dimension

 
Yea, any god could be defeated in their dimension if their opponent garnered the means to turn into itself. No, Shuma cannot be defeated by Strange in his dimension. In fact, without that prep time Strange would not even be able to reach Shuma-Gorath's dimension without collapsing into a comatose state like Kaluu. Meanwhile he was doing fine in Cyttorak's realm.
 

@kenshiroo

said:

Strange can not even to do nothing against Cyttorak, who is much more powerful (this event against Shuma with prep were chronologically identified as an important experience/knowledge that allowed him to mature more as a sorcerer supreme and protector of mankind).

 
The fact that you're trying to pass of Dr. Strange when in Cyttorak's realm as being > the Doctor Strange in Shuma-Gorath's realm is absolutely moronic. Strange was amped in Shuma-Gorath's realm further than he has ever been in any other instance. The Strange that went waltzing into Cyttorak's realm would be collapsing in the realm before Arioch's just like Kaluu. Experience doesn't mean jack in terms of power at Strange's disposal, otherwise Current Strange would be a beast since his experience has added up, yet he gets pwned on a regular basis.

 

@kenshiroo

said:

Unlike Shuma Gorath, conversely, the Supreme Sorcerer was pretty owned by Cyttorak on several ocassions:

(Several scans that don't show in the least how Cyttorak would fare against Shuma-Gorath)

 
None of those scans did anything at all to show how Cyttorak would fare against Shuma. Wow, so he's stronger than the other featless members of the Octessence and was toying with a regular Doctor Strange. Huge feat *sarcasm*

@kenshiroo said:

with all the evidence presented, is a real and powerful fact Cyttorak utterly destroys Shuma Gorath. Cyttorak outclasses and overpowers Shuma in every way. (^__^) (^ O ^) "

So basically you argued  against Shuma because according to you:

1) Shuma-Gorath can't survive without eating apes
2) One person who has never written anything to do with Shuma-Gorath has the opinion that Cyttorak is greater so it must be true
3) Shuma-Gorath doesn't create its own mystical energy

- 1 and 3 were quickly debunked merely by posting Shuma-Gorath's bio (nevermind all the on-panel evidence)


And you argued for Cyttorak because according to you:

1) Cyttorak beat up a regular Doctor Strange so he must be greater than Shuma
2) D'Spayre was overconfident as to what Cyttorak's powers would do
3) A bunch of stuff you made up about Cyttorak


So as a rundown, here are Cyttorak's feats:

1) Gets banished from earth for unknown circumstances
2) Can't agree with the others of the Octessence on who is most powerful so they create a bet
3) Creates Juggernaut to spread his fame because he cannot escape his own cosmos
4) Created elves to dance around in front of him
5) Got the crap kicked out of him by Juggernaut

Shuma-Gorath's feats:

1) Dominated the Fear Lord Nightmare without even having to go into the realm and even forced a spell of silence on him:
2) Conquered hundreds of dimensions (as to Cyttorak's measly one that he cannot even escape from):
3) Had a lesser realm that made Mephisto and Satannish like mice in a temple in comparison and caused Kaluu to drop and foam at the mouth:
4) Had power that when surging through Strange was enough to destroy galaxies just by being present
5) Created a voodoo replica of earth and surrounded it in a ring of fire. Also put a spell on it to prevent strange from removing the fire ring and it caused death and pain throughout the world:
6) Could have destroyed all the netherrealms in existence if the battle with Strange/Arioch continued:

7) Caused a guy who was near the end of his journey in absorbing all the magical energy in Marvel to hesitate and resort to putting him to sleep before Shuma realized his presence (wasn't sure even with all that power if he could defeat Shuma)

8) Reformed from seemingly complete destruction:
9) Helped power the Galactus Engine of the Cancerverse that was killing Celestials and cosmics
10) Was stated to not be able to die by Thanos and others within the Cancerverse

Cyttorak's enemies:

1) Nobody even cares about him


Strange when facing Shuma-Gorath, heck even in preparation for Shuma-Gorath, before absorbing Arioch, was at a far greater level of power than when in the Crimson Cosmos.  Before Strange went to Shuma's realm to fight him he had TONS of prep. Doctor Strange had begun to practice black magic with Kaluu and then lost an eye that contained eldritch energy. He used this eldritch to subdue the sprites of Earth and then fights the forces of chaos in off panel battles and takes all the magic from his lover, Victoria Bentley, who had enough magical potential that she could have been a threat to Baron Mordo. He also has his mystical artifacts from the Vishanti, magical artifacts of Cyttorak, merges with the chaos lord Arioch and even after all this he can't harm Shuma until he has fused with Shuma's energy. Shuma-Gorath has actually tangled with very high level magic users and come out on top or caused his opponent to avoid the battle. Cyttorak has jack squat to his name. Shuma-Gorath >>>>>>>>>>>>CyttorakThe End. "

Ok, lets continue this argue:

1. Shuma dominated fear Lord, yeah? Juggernaut dominated the strongest Fear Lord - Dspeir and he allready defeated classic Nightmare in his own demension. So that Shumas feat is nothing compare to that feats. And Cyttorak CAN destroy the universe and if he didnt show that it doesnt mean he cant since there are enougth proofs he CAN do that (Dspeir with little part of Cyttoraks power was able to control 616 universe and he allmost opened a portal to Oblivions realm and lol he wasnt able to kill Juggernaut).

2. Who told you such crap Cyttorak cant ascape from his demension? he can do that. He escaped it in a Seven Sfears War, if i not mistake. And why should he go out of his demension since he care only about Crimson Cosmos?

3. Mephisto and Satannish are nothing compare to Cyttorak.

4. Trion Juggernaut with only a very little part of Cyttoraks power destroyed demensions, universes and demensional barriers and that feats >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> galactic distruction.

5. So what?

6. Destroyed all the netherrealms in existence? No. Since Cyttorak survived Absolute Nullifier twice.

7. So what?

8. SO WHAT?!

9. Thors Godblast damaged Exitars armor and made Galactus flee, but it didnt hurt classic Juggernaut. Galactus wasnt able to escape Cyttoraks tentacles and he was banished in Crimson Cosmos. 

10. And?

You see? You have no proofs on your side, man. 

" Shuma should be able to stomp in any situation here.......................................................................... "

" @ebuchanan said:

" Shuma should be able to stomp in any situation here.......................................................................... "

Based on what? "

" @Jedisupermaster said:

" @ebuchanan said:

" Shuma should be able to stomp in any situation here.......................................................................... "

Based on what? "

On-panel feats. Or you could just look at everything I posted above. "

Did you see what i posted above? 

Man, Cyttorak beats Shuma-Gorath. Cyttoraks feats are more impressive then Shumas feats. Its just because someone who has only a very little part of Cyttoraks power can control the whole 616 universe. ^_^

" @Prince CortSether said:

" @Jedisupermaster said:

" @ebuchanan said:

" Shuma should be able to stomp in any situation here.......................................................................... "

Based on what? "

On-panel feats. Or you could just look at everything I posted above. "

Did you see what i posted above? 

Man, Cyttorak beats Shuma-Gorath. Cyttoraks feats are more impressive then Shumas feats. Its just because someone who has only a very little part of Cyttoraks power can control the whole 616 universe. ^_^

"

" @Jedisupermaster said:

" @Prince CortSether said:

" @Jedisupermaster said:

" @ebuchanan said:

" Shuma should be able to stomp in any situation here.......................................................................... "

Based on what? "

On-panel feats. Or you could just look at everything I posted above. "

Did you see what i posted above? 

Man, Cyttorak beats Shuma-Gorath. Cyttoraks feats are more impressive then Shumas feats. Its just because someone who has only a very little part of Cyttoraks power can control the whole 616 universe. ^_^

"

That's called hyperbole. D'Spayre was boasting. "

Prove it.

Dspeir WAS able to control The 616 universe. And i think so not only because of his words - he allmost opened a portal to Uoter Void there.

Also, if you didnt noticed, Cyttorak has limitless power in his own demension and your "proofs" didnt prove anything. 

The end.

" @Prince CortSether:Why is that hyperbole ? I mean D'spayre is not some douche, didn't he corrupt a cosmic cube once ? "

" @Prince CortSether:So ? Have we seen something indicating that Shuma is universal power aside from just a narration ? No. Why don't you call that a hyperbole when Shuma hasn't destroyed a universe on panel either ? Oh wait, I know, because you, Dora, ride Shuma's tentacles for a very long time. "

" @TheUltimateSurvivor said:

" @Prince CortSether:Why is that hyperbole ? I mean D'spayre is not some douche, didn't he corrupt a cosmic cube once ? "

It's hyperbole because we have seen nothing from Cyttorak to suggest that he's a universal power. D'Spayre is small fry in the grand scheme of things.

As far as the cosmic cube goes, he tried to use it to make himself stronger after Captain America was killed but then it brought back to life the Avengers and then D'Spayre was defeated by Echo. "

That proves nothing. Dspeir allmost opened a portal to Oblivions realm. So, i cant see any reason to do any hyperbolisation. Cyttorak is a universal buster. Also, if you read comics about Trion Juggernaut, you remember that he actuely destroyed some demensions and universes. Marvel itself mentioned that Cyttorak has limitless power.

" @Prince CortSether said:

" @TheUltimateSurvivor said:

" @Prince CortSether:Why is that hyperbole ? I mean D'spayre is not some douche, didn't he corrupt a cosmic cube once ? "

It's hyperbole because we have seen nothing from Cyttorak to suggest that he's a universal power. D'Spayre is small fry in the grand scheme of things.

As far as the cosmic cube goes, he tried to use it to make himself stronger after Captain America was killed but then it brought back to life the Avengers and then D'Spayre was defeated by Echo. "

That proves nothing. Dspeir allmost opened a portal to Oblivions realm. So, i cant see any reason to do any hyperbolisation. Cyttorak is a universal buster. Also, if you read comics about Trion Juggernaut, you remember that he actuely destroyed some demensions and universes. Marvel itself mentioned that Cyttorak has limitless power.

"

" @TheUltimateSurvivor said:

" @Prince CortSether:So ? Have we seen something indicating that Shuma is universal power aside from just a narration ? No. Why don't you call that a hyperbole when Shuma hasn't destroyed a universe on panel either ? Oh wait, I know, because you, Dora, ride Shuma's tentacles for a very long time. "

Firstly, the Dora character was anti-Shuma, and she's gone. Secondly, Shuma-Gorath ruling hundreds of dimensions is not only stated by him and not even denied by Doctor Strange, but backed up in his official bio. Shuma has also contended (and even caused the death) of others who have demonstrated universal or beyond universal power: Sise-Neg, The Vishanti, Celestials, etc.  By default, we know Shuma can do so. There is nothing to contradict this.Meanwhile, what has Cyttorak done and who has he fought that has demonstrated universe busting power? That's right, nobody. He's spent his days forcing elf children made from his body to worship him and having his avatar rob jewelry from banks. "

" @Prince CortSether said:

" @TheUltimateSurvivor said:

" @Prince CortSether:So ? Have we seen something indicating that Shuma is universal power aside from just a narration ? No. Why don't you call that a hyperbole when Shuma hasn't destroyed a universe on panel either ? Oh wait, I know, because you, Dora, ride Shuma's tentacles for a very long time. "

Firstly, the Dora character was anti-Shuma, and she's gone. Secondly, Shuma-Gorath ruling hundreds of dimensions is not only stated by him and not even denied by Doctor Strange, but backed up in his official bio. Shuma has also contended (and even caused the death) of others who have demonstrated universal or beyond universal power: Sise-Neg, The Vishanti, Celestials, etc.  By default, we know Shuma can do so. There is nothing to contradict this.Meanwhile, what has Cyttorak done and who has he fought that has demonstrated universe busting power? That's right, nobody. He's spent his days forcing elf children made from his body to worship him and having his avatar rob jewelry from banks. "

Dora was pro-Capcom and you're still here.
LOL, all he was doing was leaching Genesis energy, that's all. And then fell asleep.
OK, ruling hundreds of dimensions, where are those dimensions ? Who was there to stop him ? How did he conquer them ? Can you tell me ? "

" @Prince CortSether: Lol, what I'm not arguing about who is better, they both suck. One is sitting on his throne somewhere and another is just a disgusting octopus.
But hyperbole theme is another story. "

" @TheUltimateSurvivor said:

" @Prince CortSether: Lol, what I'm not arguing about who is better, they both suck. One is sitting on his throne somewhere and another is just a disgusting octopus.
But hyperbole theme is another story. "

So Shuma-Gorath loses because of his appearance is essentially your argument. Glad to know this was time well spent. "

" @Prince CortSether said:

" @TheUltimateSurvivor said:

" @Prince CortSether: Lol, what I'm not arguing about who is better, they both suck. One is sitting on his throne somewhere and another is just a disgusting octopus.
But hyperbole theme is another story. "

So Shuma-Gorath loses because of his appearance is essentially your argument. Glad to know this was time well spent. "

Where did I say Shuma loses ? I said they both suck.
Sorry that I hurt your fanboy feelings, though :( "

" @TheUltimateSurvivor said:

" @Prince CortSether said:

" @TheUltimateSurvivor said:

" @Prince CortSether: Lol, what I'm not arguing about who is better, they both suck. One is sitting on his throne somewhere and another is just a disgusting octopus.
But hyperbole theme is another story. "

So Shuma-Gorath loses because of his appearance is essentially your argument. Glad to know this was time well spent. "

Where did I say Shuma loses ? I said they both suck.
Sorry that I hurt your fanboy feelings, though :( "

You're not the least bit good at trolling. Find another hobby. "

" @Prince CortSether said:

" @TheUltimateSurvivor said:

" @Prince CortSether said:

" @TheUltimateSurvivor said:

" @Prince CortSether: Lol, what I'm not arguing about who is better, they both suck. One is sitting on his throne somewhere and another is just a disgusting octopus.
But hyperbole theme is another story. "

So Shuma-Gorath loses because of his appearance is essentially your argument. Glad to know this was time well spent. "

Where did I say Shuma loses ? I said they both suck.
Sorry that I hurt your fanboy feelings, though :( "

You're not the least bit good at trolling. Find another hobby. "

I'm glad that I'm not as good at trolling as you, Mr illegal wooden v..gina. "

" @Jedisupermaster said:

" @Prince CortSether said:

" @TheUltimateSurvivor said:

" @Prince CortSether:Why is that hyperbole ? I mean D'spayre is not some douche, didn't he corrupt a cosmic cube once ? "

It's hyperbole because we have seen nothing from Cyttorak to suggest that he's a universal power. D'Spayre is small fry in the grand scheme of things.

As far as the cosmic cube goes, he tried to use it to make himself stronger after Captain America was killed but then it brought back to life the Avengers and then D'Spayre was defeated by Echo. "

That proves nothing. Dspeir allmost opened a portal to Oblivions realm. So, i cant see any reason to do any hyperbolisation. Cyttorak is a universal buster. Also, if you read comics about Trion Juggernaut, you remember that he actuely destroyed some demensions and universes. Marvel itself mentioned that Cyttorak has limitless power.

"

Trion Juggernaut never destroyed any dimensions. He was attempting to break through dimensional barriers. "

Since when?

I think its useless for you to argue because i gave a Cyttoraks feat that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all Shuma-Goraths feats.

" @Prince CortSether said:

" @kenshiroo:

@kenshiroo

said:

As I like to find the fairness of things against the fanboyism or the biased subjective of assessment of “cool characters” over old characters so powerful that for the same reason rarely are reported. I will expose all the evidence about why Cyttorak overpowers Shuma Gorath.   (^__^) (^ O ^)

Good luck.

@kenshiroo

said:

I begin by clarifying some terms that lend to utter confusion.

Begin to understand what means the term Omnipotence in its absolute and relative sense:

( A BUNCH OF DICTIONARY QUOTES)

Cool story bro.

@kenshiroo

said:

Shuma Gorath is also regarded as omnipotent in its realm defined by Marvel, because it does have vast magical powers, but not unlimited.

All gods carry the "omnipotent" claim within their realms - that is until someone of higher power comes in and dominates them. So in that sense, everyone other than TOAA or a Supreme Being (like the Infinity Being) has vast but not unlimited powers.

@kenshiroo

said:

Also Cyttorak fits perfectly into the definition of the Omnipotent according Marvel but unlike the others, his magic powers are truly unlimited or limitless on his pocket realm. 

Virtually  unlimited or limitless. Those are very different things.

 

@kenshiroo

said:

However, Cyttorak would not be Omnipotent (according to the theological and philosophical definition) despite having infinite magic power, because Cyttorak has infinite power only to do several things within his own realm (restriction) but not to do anything he wishes or impossible things for him.

I'm holding you to this for any arguments from you later about Cyttorak being able to do anything he wants.  Remember you said this.

 

@kenshiroo

said:

So Cyttorak’s skills on CC are: to have infinite power to invulnerability (Cyttorak is an abstract magic entity and he will be taking any physical humanoid image or form if he wishes to communicate with physical or sentient beings without allowing him to be hurt)

 Cyttorak is not an abstract. I would love to know what abstract concept he is supposed to represent. Do tell.

 

@kenshiroo

said:

  to have infinite power to super strength, durability and indestructibility, guaranteeing essentially immortality.

 Nothing special. All gods and have super strength, durability, varying levels of indestructibility, and are by definition immortal.

 

@kenshiroo

said:

Cyttorak can shape his crimson bands and make them as strong as he wishes (tentacles, circles and crimson rings).

And yet others have broken out of his Crimson Bands when he has tried to restrain them.

 

@kenshiroo

said:

Cyttorak can shape his crimson bands and make them as strong as he wishes (tentacles, circles and crimson rings). Usually the magic users can invoke the Crimson Bands shaped as rings, thick circles, a box, a large gem, and so forth, whatever the magic user desires and are almost always used to restrain or imprison an enemy.

  You see, almost always. His Crimson Bands have been broken out of quite a few times, whether manifested by himself or others.

 

@kenshiroo

said:

Cyttorak can teleport things or beings in time or between multiple dimensions

 Funny how he cannot escape his own pocket realm, then. Not even a reason given as to why. He's just stuck there.

 

@kenshiroo

said:

 Besides, is totally a fact that his endless or limitless magic is the source of many powerful magic users or wielders sorceress, such as: The Ancient One, Dr. Strange, Baron Mordo, Dr. Doom, Morgan Le Fay, Demonicus, Azrael, Kaecilus, Augustyne Phiffe, Jacob Roark, etc, and mystical entities such as: Zom, Dormammu and Umar, including his evil avatar of the destruction, of course, the Juggernaut.

 And Shuma-Gorath is/has been served by the following: Arioch, The Baby God, The Brain-Ship, Dagoth, Ebora, Erlik Khan, The Gatekeeper, Ghaszaszh Nyirh, Kathulos, Khats, Kulan Gath, The Living Buddha, N'Gabthoth, Nicholas Scratch, Nightmare, The Serpent Men of Starkesboro, Sligguth, Vammatar, The Water Elemental.

@kenshiroo

said:

Furthermore, Cyttorak is an immensely powerful mystical abstract deity (limitless elemental magic power) which is the only one who is both God and Demon unlike the others mystic beings.

A few things wrong with this. 1) As I already pointed out, Cyttorak is not an abstract. 2) Cyttorak is not the only one both God and Demon. Shuma-Gorath refers to itself as a God and has been stated as a God through on-panel narration. When a bio contradicts on-panel statements, guess which one wins?

@kenshiroo

said:

However, the most important feature of Cyttorak as an Omnipotent entity is he does have more power than other Omnipotent (according Marvel) beings such as: LT, The Celestials, Shuma Gorath, Mikaboshi, The Stranger, Galactus, etc. because Cyttorak’s magic power is infinite/endless/limitless/unlimited in his own imprisoned essence (The crimson pocket universe). This is the infinitely the great difference that puts Cyttorak superior to all of them, but only on Crimson Cosmos.

(Citation Needed)

* P.S. Saying "according to Marvel" isn't a citation.

 

@kenshiroo

said:

Living Tribunal is second in command after TOAA within the Multiverse but not interfere on the Crimson Cosmos/ Cyttorak.

 More fallacious claims. The Crimson Cosmos is within the Marvel Omniverse. The Living Tribunal has jurisdiction over it. He just never goes there because Cyttorak just sits on his butt all day long playing with elf children while his almighty avatar robs jewelry.

 

@kenshiroo

said:

The crimson cosmos itself is Cyttorak and therefore, LT has no control over someone who has infinite magical powers in his own essence, and even more knowing that LT defined by Marvel is a cosmic entity with vast cosmic powers (a Nigh-Omnipotent according to the our theology/philosophy definition or Omnipotent according to Marvel), but not unlimited. Therefore, the only one who judges everything what happens or concerns into crimson cosmos is Cyttorak.

 Your conclusions are peculiar. The Crimson Cosmos is Cyttorak so therefore the Living Tribunal has no jurisdiction over it? There is absolutely no correlation between the Living Tribunal's boundaries and whether a pocket realm is or isn't a deity itself. The Living Tribunal has jurisdiction over the entire Marvel universe including everything within it. If Cyttorak was threatening cosmic balance the Living Tribunal would stop him, but Cyttorak is stuck in his Crimson Cosmos and has never threatened the cosmic order,  so Living Tribunal has no reason to meddle with Cyttorak's business.

 

@kenshiroo

said:

With respect to Cyttorak's exile, all that is known is Cyttorak had limited influence on the earth during the prehistoric time at the moment when he was banished from it , that alone justifies the reason for his banishment under unknown circumstances by someone unknown. This is not an indicator which demonstrates the superiority of someone over Cyttorak, unless TOAA was who did it (but it is a speculation of mine that I can not prove) . The only thing we can deduce is that "limited influence" of Cyttorak on earth could not be destroyed and so it was banished to CC or himself.

 We can sit here and deduce things all day but it doesn't demonstrate in the least how Cyttorak is supposed to be superior to all the others you mentioned like Shuma-Gorath and the Living Tribunal.

 

@kenshiroo

said:

The only thing we can deduce is that Cyttorak can not be destroyed and due he can not be destroyed he was exiled, but the question is: How do you exile someone who is infinite crimson magic himself? If I may deduct, would be only and just only by enclosing himself, ie, infinite energy was contained in an infinity container. Hence, the Crimson Cosmos is his prison but also is the same Cyttorak in oneself.   

 Yea, Cyttorak cannot be destroyed yet he can be beat up and knocked out by his own avatar. In fact, in  Dr. Strange III #44 Cyttorak was unconscious after getting the gem ripped out of his forehead by Juggernaut and stayed that way until the gem was placed back in his head by Nova. That's a pretty glaring weakness right there, wouldn't you say? Simply rip the gem from his forehead and he goes down. And you realize that Cyttorak being the realm itself doesn't mean much at all? Like what Galactus started to do to Mephisto's realm, a powerful enough being could destroy the realm itself.

@kenshiroo

said:

Cyttorak is a Deity and by par excellence is a God, also one half of him is a Demon by his most destructive aspect because Cyttorak is the Lord of Oblivion and Master of the Raging Storm.

Kay.

@kenshiroo

said:

Therefore, the Oblivion, Entropy and Death are subject under Cyttorak's orders as part of the repertoire of his most destructive and evil aspect.

 Not one on-panel instance supports this. Cyttorak having aliases does not equate to abstracts being dependent on him.

@kenshiroo

said:

The irrefutable logic and evidence of this is there is no time on Cyttorak/CC (Conversely, the entire physical Universe, the Multiverse and Omniverse can die and be eaten by the Oblivion or the Outer Void because there is time, these realities are subject or ruled by the continuity of space-time and physical laws but all physical laws are Ruled by Magic).

 
What? That is utter fabrication. Cyttorak's Crimson Cosmos is merely a pocket realm within the Marvel universe.

 

@kenshiroo

said:

Cyttorak is infinitely eternal and immortal/unkillable due he is essentially limitless magic power; also he has existed for billions of years, long before the -616- Universe or even may be before the Multiverse itself. The Lord of Oblivion (void, nonexistence) is oldest than the Lord of Chaos.

No. No to just everything in here. Cyttorak and every other abstract and god was created after the suicide of the Infinity Being, which created the original universe. The first creation was made by the Infinity Being with its Big Bang from the void, which created all of the abstracts and deities.
 

@kenshiroo

said:

If we look at the facts, Shuma Gorath’s feats compared only to one of the "little shows" that loom over the Cyttorak’s powers are completely inferior, if Shuma Gorath was able to manipulate magical energies on a planetary scale and may have a destructive effect to shatter some galaxies is absolutely dwarfed with fact which a fraction of the Crimson energies plundered by D'Spayre from the Juggernaut was much power, to the point he could manipulate the very fabric of the universe itself at his will and conduit the Oblivion or the Outer Void where he wanted, being the most powerful of all in the Universe.

D'Spayre being overconfident and boastful. What else is new?. Cyttorak has never shown himself to be a universal buster and as such this is mere hyperbole.

@kenshiroo

said:

Even Marvel official sources have publicly stated and demonstrated the only abstract being who has limitless magic power in his own essence is Cyttorak

Virtually limitless power of Cyttorak. Big difference.

@kenshiroo

said:

nobody else has it.

 (Citation needed)
 

@kenshiroo

said:

The rest of the powerful abstract mystical beings as Agamotto, Hoggoth and Osthur (The Vishanti) or Chthon

 None of which are abstracts, but okay...

@kenshiroo

said:

So Cyttorak doesn’t need tons of feats just to prove he does have limitless magic power on his own turf or he is the most powerful simply because he doesn’t need it

 Yeah, no. Actually Cyttorak does. He needs feats of his own power or must demonstrate his ability to stand up to other deities who have large scale feats. That's how it works in the battle forums. Cyttorak has nothing to his name. You can't just pull out statements from nowhere. Well, actually you can but it doesn't have any substance behind it.  Good lord, this guy has become the Storm of Marvel's gods.

@kenshiroo

said:

nobody can defeat him on CC, he is invincible, nobody has the Omnipotence to overpower him or dwarf him, nobody can fight or destroy someone who has unlimited magic power to what I mentioned above. Nobody can control, beat, destroy or drain the power which is limitless from him, ie, nobody can beat him, destroy, control or drain all the limitless magic power of Cyttorak/Crimson Bands, which infinitely overpowers their own abilities, skills and vast magic powers (but limited) from others like Shuma Gorath.

 All except the almighty Juggernaut owned Cyttorak himself by punching him repeatedly. Unfortunately for him he was connected with Cyttorak so he cut off his own power in the process. However, unfortunately for Cyttorak if anyone of moderate power comes in and starts punching him he will be done for seeing as how they won't be relying on Cyttorak for power. I guess Shuma could just whack Cyttorak with a tentacle and effectively KO him. Or once again, simply remove the ruby from his head  seeing as Cyttorak himself stated the source of his crimson cosmos is linked to the ruby on his head.

@kenshiroo

said:

Moreover, the facts explained about Cyttorak are clear and noticeably supported by Marvel creators who have full control and authority over the comics and their characters. They stated and shown publicly on several occasions: Cyttorak is a magical being immensely powerful because he has unlimited magic power. The most recent and forceful statement: “Cyttorak is likely above Shuma Gorath” (stated by the executive editor and Senior Vice President of Marvel publishing Tom Brevoort, who has edited and supervised personally many occurrences of Shuma Gorath and Cyttorak respectively (Avengers # 24-25, 29/2000, Thor # 17/1999, Deadline # 1/2002, etc.) is sufficiently clear and reiterates 100 % the fact Cyttorak overpowers Shuma Gorath in all senses. 

Even the Vice President of Marvel gives me reason about Cyttorak is superior to Shuma Gorath. Wait, Why doesn't surprise me this? is obvious.

There are problems with this.

1) Tom Brevoort has never written a single issue involving Shuma-Gorath. His opinion on the matter has about as much worth as Stephanie Meyer.

The only author whose opinion would matter regarding the specific question would be Steve Englehart, as he wrote Shuma-Gorath's first Marvel appearances and has used Cyttorak in his writings before. This is merely proof that Brevoort doesn't know what the hell he is talking about. Shuma-Gorath and even Zom have both demonstrated they draw the attention of far more powerful entities. Cyttorak has only ever been noticed by the other featless members of the Octessence.

I'm sorry but one opinion from a single person in Marvel's staff who has never been directly related in a storyline revolving around Shuma-Gorath does not overturn years of on-panel feats and previously established powers.

@kenshiroo

said:

But wait, now what are the evidences that put or exploit the Shuma Gorath’s weakness?

This was already demonstrated along this threat but I will show one last time.

Shuma Gorath was beaten two times by a mortal

Strange lost the first confrontation and won the two others by very special circumstances.

 

@kenshiroo

said:

Shuma Gorath was beaten two times by a mortal, but a mortal who is called the Supreme Sorcerer Dr. Stephen Strange. First, Strange overpowered Shuma powers after he drained all the energies from Arioch (Demon/Magician, which magic powers were clearly vast but limited), doing this, Dr. Strange physically defeated Shuma Gorath, by destroying it, but due to the large amounts of evil magic energies absorbed, Shuma Gorath was emerging within Strange. However, the “tiny motes” of humanity remained of Strange was so powerful that not only was able to drain and manipulate at his will the Arioch’s magic energies, Dr. Strange was able to have enough willpower and determination to complete his mission: to save the earth and defeat once and for all Shuma Gorath’s physical consciousness temporally. For this, Strange impaled himself to sacrifice his ego and thus prevent future spells to the rebirth of Shuma Gorath. In this way, Strange defeated Shuma Gorath and this clearly represents a form of victory for Strange and a way to defeat Shuma Gorath. Want to admit it or not, Shuma Gorath was absolutely defeated by Dr. Strange. 

In this way Strange defeated Shuma Gorath and this clearly represents a form of victory for Strange and a way to defeat Shuma Gorath. Sorry.

Strange clearly defeated Shuma Gorath preventing its fusion with him, even it was reiterated by Dr. Strange without ego and Kaluu after telling what happened in his battle, where he clearly tells him he defeated the Lord of Chaos. This fact explains why a No-ego Strange had so destructive energies accumulated when Kaluu helped him to burn or release some of that energy when he took him by traveling through different astral planes. Clearly these energies absorbed from Shuma Gorath were totally finite or limited. This fact shows the limitation of the magical energies of Shuma Gorath and its defeat at the hands of Doc Strange on its own realm.

 

 
I don't understand why you wish to continue pushing that it was Stephen Strange the mortal who defeated Shuma-Gorath. It wasn't.  Firstly, when Strange first encountered Shuma-Gorath within the Ancient One's mind, he was getting manhandled and had no hope of winning. He had to resort to killing the Ancient One's ego within his consciousness, merely to seal the gateway into 616. Even before that when seeing Shuma-Gorath with Sise-Neg, Strange had to beg Sise-Neg to take care of him. Secondly, it is expressly stated by Strange after he merges with Arioch that "Stephen Strange is no more". He even tells Shuma-Gorath that the only parts of Strange left in him are little motes. Strange merged with Arioch in absolutely no way, shape, or form = Doctor Strange as normal. Strange had to learn and wield the arts of black magic and fuse with Arioch. Not to mention he already had all of his knowledge as sorcerer supreme and artifacts from Cyttorak and the Vishanti, yet he couldn't harm Shuma-Gorath until he started to turn into him. Even after that Shuma had the nifty ability to cause whoever defeats him to turn into him, which is why Strange/Arioch/Shuma had to impale itself to prevent Shuma's consciousness from taking him over. It's just sad that you're trying to pass this of like Strange could defeat Shuma willy nilly when  Strange had to fuse with black magic, a being with infinite energy and turn into Shuma-Gorath, and then kill himself in order to save the earth, and then Shuma just re-manifested later anyway. Not to mention that when Strange's journey began he was running away from Shuma-Gorath's servants and getting his butt kicked and even got his eye taken out by one of them.

@kenshiroo

said:

It's funny how some people intend to do to see the facts distorted in favor of praise and to glorify Shuma (like if he had had won all battles against Strange)

It's funny that you're trying to make it seem like Shuma-Gorath lost to Strange by being overpowered when Strange was getting his ass handed to him and had to rely on plot device to win on EVERY occasion, yea, even the weakened Shuma.

1st battle:

Doesn't look like Strange was doing any winning here. Had to kill his mentor to simply seal a dimensional barrier and escape with his life.

2nd battle:

You already posted. Yet you failed to mention the amount of prep Strange had garnered: Fusing with black magic, having artifacts of Cyttorak and the Vishanti, tons of prep time where he had to confront his servants and move up the ladder absorbing more energy as he went on, fusing with the chaos lord, Arioch, turning into Shuma-Gorath, forced to impale himself to prevent from being consumed. Strange's victory here was not normal Classic Strange. It was Classic Strange fueled with black magic/Arioch and Shuma-Gorath's essence.

3rd battle:

You posted Shuma-Gorath's low showing when he was weak and hungry from his long slumber. You seem to take this as if Shuma-Gorath needs to constantly feed otherwise he will end up like this, not taking into account that this was his first on-panel appearance since his battle with Strange meaning he had just manifested himself back together shortly beforehand. It's a special circumstance and not at all indicative of his power. That's like saying Galactus is < Fantastic Four because he's hungry and weak sometimes.   

 

@kenshiroo

said:

(only by fanboyism)

 
(Only by on-panel showings).

Funny, the fanboy behavior would be coming from the one making grandiose claims for someone essentially featless - Cyttorak.
 

@kenshiroo

said:

and without coherent argument when they say that it was "Shuma who destroyed itself"

 
 That's actually a very coherent argument. Strange turned into Shuma, wielded the earth replica created by Shuma, and hurled it at the original Shuma within the realm. On-panel.

 

@kenshiroo

said:

completely ignoring the role of Dr. Strange in his battle. Shuma Gorath was in its own realm and, yet with all its powers to 100%, were not sufficient to kill or destroy a mortal, so all its plans to rule the earth were frustrated and it was defeated by the "tiny motes” of memories remained from the essence of a powerful mortal: Dr. Strange.

 Shuma was not defeated by memories. What nonsense is that? The memories of Strange only served to let him remember his mission. The power necessary to destroy Shuma-Gorath came from Shuma's own energy. There's no way around this it's shown as such in the illustrations. Quit trying to pass off that Strange at normal levels beat Shuma-Gorath ever under normal circumstances.
 

@kenshiroo

said:

Shuma Gorath was clearly defeated by Strange, like it or not

 
Defeated by plot device in every single encounter, never defeated in a contest of straight power.
 

@kenshiroo

said:

and this explains itself how Shuma’s magical powers are totally limited even on its own turf

  Not really.
 

@kenshiroo

said:

If Shuma had been as powerful as someone unsuccessfully, would have us believe, then it had never been defeated by a mortal (Dr. Strange) and had no storyline in the comic.

 
Strange even states that he's "no more" when facing Shuma-Gorath in his realm. He was fused with a chaos lord. That =/= mere mortal. And in defeating Shuma-Gorath he had to become Shuma-Gorath a.k.a. a god. That was the whole point of the Nietzsche quote Shuma-Gorath stated "He who fights dragons becomes a dragon himself". 
 

@kenshiroo

said:

The second time Strange faced a weak and hungry Shuma Gorath, Strange transported Shuma to Stonehenge to banish it again. Here again, it was demonstrated the Shuma Gorath qualities like a demon, which needs to take upon the life energies of living beings to create its own powers.

Shuma-Gorath is invoked for power by many demons and black magic practitioners, meaning it generates its own energy. Shuma-Gorath even demonstrated this by generating the earth replica. Shuma-Gorath's own power was causing Kaluu to go into a coma by being present. He even dominated Nightmare within his own dimension without even having to go there. That's further proof Shuma-Gorath has his own energy. He couldn't drain power from others if he didn't have his own inherent, great power to begin with. Shuma just has the added benefit of being able to absorb energy from others and draw from their power as well. Nobody is denying Shuma's leech-like qualities, but the problem is that you seem to think Shuma's power only comes from external forces when all evidence proves the contrary. Kulan Gath even invoked the name of Shuma-Gorath in order to try and attain his godhood. Shuma-Gorath needed to feed when summoned because he had been destroyed previously and sought nourishment after his long sleep. Shuma-Gorath doesn't need the power of mortals to use his magic powers, it's merely food to him. Unless you think Shuma-Gorath conquers dimensions by summoning the vast powers of prehistoric apes? lol

@kenshiroo

said:

Is this a clear evidence of the limited capacity of Shuma Gorath to produce magical powers?

Not at all.
 

@kenshiroo

said:

Absolutely, Yes.

Nope.

@kenshiroo

said:

 Shuma Gorath was defeated again by a mortal (Dr. Strange), Shuma Gorath does not produce its own magical energies without requiring sustenance of the life energies from others.

Oh wow, Strange defeated a Shuma-Gorath that was collapsing over itself by transporting the both of them to Stonehenge and using the energy of the area to send Shuma-Gorath back to his dimension - big whoop. It's not like Strange almost died trying to simply BFR a weak Shuma, oh wait.

And yea, because Shuma-Gorath was shown to be unable to generate energy without feeding first? Wait, no he just gives power to those who invoke him and used his power to communicate to him from 1000 dimensions away. And you know, along with the other Many-Angled Ones empowered the Galactus Engine of the Cancerverse that was killing abstracts and Celestials. Does Cyttorak have any of these feats? Nope. But please, tell me how Shuma-Gorath was able to empower the Galactus Engine if he had no inherent powers of his own. Better yet, please say how others invoke him for spells.
 

@kenshiroo

said:

Here clearly, Shuma Gorath was defeated by Strange for the second time. Dr. Strange carried Shuma Gorath to Stonehenge to banish it to a dimension of no return although this it left him seriously injured. For those who ignore the role of Dr. Strange in all the defeats of Shuma Gorath, here, he was able to connect his own life force to the arcane ambient mystic energies of the surrounding environment of Stonehenge in order to create an interdimensional gateway to banish Shuma, ie, he used all his mystic powers and knowledge in the study of the Egocentric and Ecocentric magic to open an interdimensional gateway on Stonehenge and banish Shuma. So here, he won again and beat Shuma with his own means.

You mean the Gateway a.k.a. Stonehenge's power. He would have died to a weak Shuma had it not been there.
 

@kenshiroo

said:

The second time Strange faced a weak and hungry Shuma Gorath, Strange transported Shuma to Stonehenge to banish it again. Here again, it was demonstrated the Shuma Gorath qualities like a demon, which needs to take upon the life energies of living beings to create its own powers.

Shuma-Gorath's appearance in Avengers was a special case as he was recently manifested from physical destruction, of course he's going to need to recuperate in that instance. It's far more logical that that is the case then stating that Shuma needs to absorb from others to create his powers when Shuma-Gorath has been shown to generate his own mystical energy time after time, without having fed. The food is merely energy, but the powers he has are his own, unless you think apes give him the enormous power? No. His power comes from himself and he can increase that power by conquering universes.

Additionally, from his official Marvel bio: 

Shuma-Gorath is a extradimensional demon and is therefore immune to disease and aging.  In his native dimension he is virtually omnipotent. He generates his own mystical power, but is also able to draw energy, mystical or otherwise, from others.
 

@kenshiroo

said:

I do take this irrefutable evidence to put down the belief of Shuma Gorath produces in massive amounts its own magical energies.

 See Marvel bio.

@kenshiroo

said:

Now, I will begin to clarify some conceptions about the nature of Shuma Gorath and why it does being clearly inferior to Cyttorak.

Oh gawd.

 

@kenshiroo

said:

What is Shuma Gorath?
According to the Marvel definitions, Shuma Gorath is an extradimensional Class 3 Demon, and a demon is:

1) “A godlike being whose form and functions have degenerated so it preys upon the living in some way.” Source: http://marvel.com/universe/Glossary:D

Is a fact, demons of the Third Class like Shuma Gorath according the OHOTMU only have one way to gain power: “to be a parasitic form of quasi-mystical superhuman life, requiring sustenance of some sort (generally "souls" or life essences) from lesser creatures (like man) in order to live."

 
Not all gods in the same category are exactly the same. There are varying levels of power and differences between them, even when in the same category. This is just a general rule. 
Shuma-Gorath is also stated to be the leader of the Great Old Ones, which Hoggoth is a part of, but do you see any similarities between Hoggoth and Shuma-Gorath? Yea, me neither.  Shuma-Gorath doesn't need to feast in order to live, but it does so because it is attracted to the energy it adds to his own. By saying Shuma needs these lesser beings to survive, you're effectively saying Shuma-Gorath would die without them. However, we know this isn't true because 1) Shuma-Gorath already resurrected himself from nothingness, showing that he cannot die 2) It was supported by Thanos, who stated that even Mistress Death couldn't permanently destroy the bodies of the "Undying Ones".

@kenshiroo

said:

 2) 

Source: OHOTMU (1991)

I love how you just contradicted yourself with this. Notice how it says that demons possess their own magical powers?

 

@kenshiroo

said:

Is a fact, demons of the Third Class like Shuma Gorath according the OHOTMU only have one way to gain power: “to be a parasitic form of quasi-mystical superhuman life, requiring sustenance of some sort (generally "souls" or life essences) from lesser creatures (like man) in order to live."

Notice it says that that's how they gain power. It never states anywhere that they do not have their own inherent powers, as you love to so imply. And as explained above, Shuma-Gorath has been shown on-panel to not be able to die, effectively nullifying the idea that he absolutely needs to feed in order to live.
 

@kenshiroo

said:

This fully demonstrated Shuma Gorath is a demon who never had unlimited magical powers on its realm and less outside it.

Too bad Shuma-Gorath's bio states he is virtually omnipotent within his native realm.

I mean your argument is pretty much void at this point.

@kenshiroo

said:

In summary, according to the Marvel definitions above, is described the traits and characteristics which define perfectly Shuma Gorath, who is the leader of the Old Ones (ancient demons race whose inhabited the earth before the man appeared) whose form and functions degenerated forced it to consume or prey the energy lives from others in order to feed itself and produce its magical powers.

And part of the Many-Angled Ones, don't forget that.

 

@kenshiroo

said:

Also, Shuma Gorath lives in others dimensions and had vast magical powers (energies consumed from hundreds of worlds) that allowed it manipulate magical energies only a planetary scale (which justifies its defeat against Strange)

 
Ugh, quit adding your own unsupported commentary. Shuma-Gorath generates its own mystical power, shown on-panel and bio supported. That doesn't justify Shuma's defeat against Strange. Apparently you couldn't comprehend the darn story. Strange won because he became Shuma, not because of this non-existing weakness you wish Shuma-Gorath had.

 

@kenshiroo

said:

 indicating well the limitation of its magical powers, unlike Cyttorak which is truly, factually limitless.

 
Virtually limitless, and only within the Crimson Cosmos, which Shuma-Gorath could just destroy and absorb, btw.

 

@kenshiroo

said:

 This clearly confirms the lower, dwarfed and thwarted demonic nature of Shuma Gorath against Cyttorak, as it was demonstrated before.

 
You didn't really demonstrate anything.

 

@kenshiroo

said:

Therefore, all these evidences show the energy of Shuma Gorath unlike those of Cyttorak are quite limited and he can be defeated by Strange in his own dimension

 
Yea, any god could be defeated in their dimension if their opponent garnered the means to turn into itself. No, Shuma cannot be defeated by Strange in his dimension. In fact, without that prep time Strange would not even be able to reach Shuma-Gorath's dimension without collapsing into a comatose state like Kaluu. Meanwhile he was doing fine in Cyttorak's realm.
 

@kenshiroo

said:

Strange can not even to do nothing against Cyttorak, who is much more powerful (this event against Shuma with prep were chronologically identified as an important experience/knowledge that allowed him to mature more as a sorcerer supreme and protector of mankind).

 
The fact that you're trying to pass of Dr. Strange when in Cyttorak's realm as being > the Doctor Strange in Shuma-Gorath's realm is absolutely moronic. Strange was amped in Shuma-Gorath's realm further than he has ever been in any other instance. The Strange that went waltzing into Cyttorak's realm would be collapsing in the realm before Arioch's just like Kaluu. Experience doesn't mean jack in terms of power at Strange's disposal, otherwise Current Strange would be a beast since his experience has added up, yet he gets pwned on a regular basis.

 

@kenshiroo

said:

Unlike Shuma Gorath, conversely, the Supreme Sorcerer was pretty owned by Cyttorak on several ocassions:

(Several scans that don't show in the least how Cyttorak would fare against Shuma-Gorath)

 
None of those scans did anything at all to show how Cyttorak would fare against Shuma. Wow, so he's stronger than the other featless members of the Octessence and was toying with a regular Doctor Strange. Huge feat *sarcasm*

@kenshiroo

said:

with all the evidence presented, is a real and powerful fact Cyttorak utterly destroys Shuma Gorath. Cyttorak outclasses and overpowers Shuma in every way. (^__^) (^ O ^) "

So basically you argued  against Shuma because according to you:

1) Shuma-Gorath can't survive without eating apes
2) One person who has never written anything to do with Shuma-Gorath has the opinion that Cyttorak is greater so it must be true
3) Shuma-Gorath doesn't create its own mystical energy

- 1 and 3 were quickly debunked merely by posting Shuma-Gorath's bio (nevermind all the on-panel evidence)


And you argued for Cyttorak because according to you:

1) Cyttorak beat up a regular Doctor Strange so he must be greater than Shuma
2) D'Spayre was overconfident as to what Cyttorak's powers would do
3) A bunch of stuff you made up about Cyttorak


So as a rundown, here are Cyttorak's feats:

1) Gets banished from earth for unknown circumstances
2) Can't agree with the others of the Octessence on who is most powerful so they create a bet
3) Creates Juggernaut to spread his fame because he cannot escape his own cosmos
4) Created elves to dance around in front of him
5) Got the crap kicked out of him by Juggernaut

Shuma-Gorath's feats:

1) Dominated the Fear Lord Nightmare without even having to go into the realm and even forced a spell of silence on him:
2) Conquered hundreds of dimensions (as to Cyttorak's measly one that he cannot even escape from):
3) Had a lesser realm that made Mephisto and Satannish like mice in a temple in comparison and caused Kaluu to drop and foam at the mouth:
4) Had power that when surging through Strange was enough to destroy galaxies just by being present
5) Created a voodoo replica of earth and surrounded it in a ring of fire. Also put a spell on it to prevent strange from removing the fire ring and it caused death and pain throughout the world:
6) Could have destroyed all the netherrealms in existence if the battle with Strange/Arioch continued:

7) Caused a guy who was near the end of his journey in absorbing all the magical energy in Marvel to hesitate and resort to putting him to sleep before Shuma realized his presence (wasn't sure even with all that power if he could defeat Shuma)

8) Reformed from seemingly complete destruction:
9) Helped power the Galactus Engine of the Cancerverse that was killing Celestials and cosmics
10) Was stated to not be able to die by Thanos and others within the Cancerverse

Cyttorak's enemies:

1) Nobody even cares about him


Strange when facing Shuma-Gorath, heck even in preparation for Shuma-Gorath, before absorbing Arioch, was at a far greater level of power than when in the Crimson Cosmos.  Before Strange went to Shuma's realm to fight him he had TONS of prep. Doctor Strange had begun to practice black magic with Kaluu and then lost an eye that contained eldritch energy. He used this eldritch to subdue the sprites of Earth and then fights the forces of chaos in off panel battles and takes all the magic from his lover, Victoria Bentley, who had enough magical potential that she could have been a threat to Baron Mordo. He also has his mystical artifacts from the Vishanti, magical artifacts of Cyttorak, merges with the chaos lord Arioch and even after all this he can't harm Shuma until he has fused with Shuma's energy. Shuma-Gorath has actually tangled with very high level magic users and come out on top or caused his opponent to avoid the battle. Cyttorak has jack squat to his name. Shuma-Gorath >>>>>>>>>>>>CyttorakThe End. "

Ok, lets continue this argue:

1. Shuma dominated fear Lord, yeah? Juggernaut dominated the strongest Fear Lord - Dspeir and he allready defeated classic Nightmare in his own demension. So that Shumas feat is nothing compare to that feats. And Cyttorak CAN destroy the universe and if he didnt show that it doesnt mean he cant since there are enougth proofs he CAN do that (Dspeir with little part of Cyttoraks power was able to control 616 universe and he allmost opened a portal to Oblivions realm and lol he wasnt able to kill Juggernaut).

2. Who told you such crap Cyttorak cant ascape from his demension? he can do that. He escaped it in a Seven Sfears War, if i not mistake. And why should he go out of his demension since he care only about Crimson Cosmos?

3. Mephisto and Satannish are nothing compare to Cyttorak.

4. Trion Juggernaut with only a very little part of Cyttoraks power destroyed demensions, universes and demensional barriers and that feats >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> galactic distruction.

5. So what?

6. Destroyed all the netherrealms in existence? No. Since Cyttorak survived Absolute Nullifier twice.

7. So what?

8. SO WHAT?!

9. Thors Godblast damaged Exitars armor and made Galactus flee, but it didnt hurt classic Juggernaut. Galactus wasnt able to escape Cyttoraks tentacles and he was banished in Crimson Cosmos. 

10. And?

You see? You have no proofs on your side, man. 

"

Shuma-Gorath stomps this with ease.

" Prince CortSether: LOL, definitely you are a bad loser, as I expected but do not worry, I will kick strongly each of your arguments and I will expose you well as a good liar and a Shuma Gorath frustrated fan again. I'm very busy right now, but prepare yourself; the cunning of your language will not save you to hide the true when you argue all Shuma defeats as victories and feats against a character like Cyttorak who is shown by their Marvel HQ staff with a truly limitles power and with a superior feat against Shuma Gorath. "

" @kenshiroo: In order to be a loser in a debate one would have to actually lose, of which I did not. "

" Shuma-Gorath stomps this with ease. "

And you cant prove that, as i expected.

1. Juggernaut didnt dominated that Dspeir but he withstood his attack. An attack of a UNIVERSAL BUSTER (since you cant prove he is not a universal buster and all facts tell us that he is universal buster). Dspeir managed to allmost open a portal to Outer Void. So what is the problem? He was a universal buster at that moment. I wanna see a proof that he was not a universal buster at that moment from you. Juggs defeated Nightmare in that comic. he managed to give him many problems by using his spells. 

2. Prove that Cyttorak cant get out of Crimson Cosmos.

3. They have no feats. Their avatars or somebody like that didnt destroyed demensions, universes. And people who had a little part of their powers werent able to control the 616 universe. Dormammu invoked Cyttoraks power. Dormammu >>>>>>>>> Mephisto and Sattanish.

4. Later in that issue was stated that after Trion juggs attacks several demensions and universes were merged up. Also, if you realy read that comic, you will understand that Trion Juggernaut was a truly demensional buster.

5. So what? War Hulk, who was physically stronger then ANY celestial, stoped Juggernaut. And it was not easy for him to stop Juggernaut. Also, some facts give me a reason to think that was depowered Juggy.

6. Proof that he didnt survived that blast. Since i didnt see that he died in comics.

7. That feat means nothing compare to feat with Dspeir.

8. yes. Classic Juggernaut was undistructible and he ad only a veeeeeeeeeeeeery little part of Cyttoraks power. So Cyttorak is undistructible too.

9. And after that you call me a troll? Did you read what i wrote? Galactus wasnt able to escape Cyttoraks tentacles. And about Godblast - you didnt bring facts that proves your point there. 

10. Read what i wrote above.

I dont need to post scans to prove my point. 

@kenshiroo said:  Cyttorak can shape his crimson bands and make them as strong as he wishes (tentacles, circles and crimson rings).  

   

And yet others have broken out of his Crimson Bands when he has tried to restrain them. 


kenshiroo said:  Cyttorak can shape his crimson bands and make them as strong as he wishes (tentacles, circles and crimson rings). Usually the magic users can invoke the Crimson Bands shaped as rings, thick 

circles, a box, a large gem, and so forth, whatever the magic user desires and are almost always used to restrain or imprison an enemy.

  

You see, almost always. His Crimson Bands have been broken out of quite a few times, whether manifested by himself or others. 

1) juggernaut allowed d'spayre to try to steal all the power of the 12% of physcal aspect of power contained inside the juggernaut, but even when d'spayre did and after incinerating the 

juggernaut, he was surprised to see that juggernaut still stands even AFTER he plundered all of the 12% of the power... this means that 12*infinity = infinity

a multiverse contains billions of juggernauts per reality. 12.5 * 8 juggernauts = 100% of just the physical aspect of cyttorak's essence, but what about the other billions of juggernauts being powered by that very same entity using 12% of his phsical 

aspect? 1/8th = 12.5% divided by unlimited = limitless


juggernaut didn't defeat nightmare because the battle was interupted by the broken seal! henceforth, juggernaut did his job by serving the purpose of weakening nightmare enough to the point 

where he lost enough power to contain dr. strange AND ETERNITY. if it was not for eternity's revenge and nightmare being extremely exhasted after defending himself from the juggernaut; 

juggernaut would have slowly but SURELY defeated nightmare in the biggest stomp in cosmic history.



2) i already explained this through cortsether.


3) i will post a scan of dr. strange owning both mephisto and santannish at the same time in the joint efforts of stopping dr. strange.

it is a fact that mephisto and satanish combined are "mice inside a great temple" in the essence of shuma... just imagine what they'll say in the essence of cyttorak. "mice inside a grand 

universe!"



4) you need to read that arc again... he punched a reality barrior ONE TIME, when he stepped inside, he was litterally destorying every dimension in the multiverse by just walking around. he 

was searching for the TRION UNIVERSE and per every step he took increased his power closer to the maximum 12% of cyttork's phyical aspect. he was also generating a multiversal mental lockdown 

to all of marvel's existance to the point where only the trion and charlse xavier where able to communicate with cain through logan.



5) the fact that he couldn't destroy the crimson gem of cyttorak while he toyed with the earth also explains why 12% of cyttorak's physical aspect is totally immune to shuma gorath's antics 

and seriousness.



6) in addition, the infinity guantlet is considered a lesser item stated by cyttorak and clued in by dr. strange. the choas wave didn't even effect cyttorak at all. nor did the m'kron crytal. 

and nor did the chaos king mikaboshi.




7) actually since cyttorak doesn't dream, cain can dream it, and cyttorak can make it come true.




8) shuma can be phsyically be destroyed, cyttorak can not. he is the "BFR" type.



9) galactus gave quite a damn struggling with agamotto. agamotto does not want to confront cyttorak unless backed up by hoggoth, oshtur and 7 other vastly powerful entities. the vishanti and 

the rest of the extra dimensional plane know for a fact that none of them want a peice of cyttorak unless a whole army of extra dimensional enties are their to back them up.




10) yes, compare their stats...

   

" @Gremlin From Kremlin said:

" Shuma-Gorath stomps this with ease. "

And you cant prove that, as i expected.

1. Juggernaut didnt dominated that Dspeir but he withstood his attack. An attack of a UNIVERSAL BUSTER (since you cant prove he is not a universal buster and all facts tell us that he is universal buster). Dspeir managed to allmost open a portal to Outer Void. So what is the problem? He was a universal buster at that moment. I wanna see a proof that he was not a universal buster at that moment from you. Juggs defeated Nightmare in that comic. he managed to give him many problems by using his spells. 

2. Prove that Cyttorak cant get out of Crimson Cosmos.

3. They have no feats. Their avatars or somebody like that didnt destroyed demensions, universes. And people who had a little part of their powers werent able to control the 616 universe. Dormammu invoked Cyttoraks power. Dormammu >>>>>>>>> Mephisto and Sattanish.

4. Later in that issue was stated that after Trion juggs attacks several demensions and universes were merged up. Also, if you realy read that comic, you will understand that Trion Juggernaut was a truly demensional buster.

5. So what? War Hulk, who was physically stronger then ANY celestial, stoped Juggernaut. And it was not easy for him to stop Juggernaut. Also, some facts give me a reason to think that was depowered Juggy.

6. Proof that he didnt survived that blast. Since i didnt see that he died in comics.

7. That feat means nothing compare to feat with Dspeir.

8. yes. Classic Juggernaut was undistructible and he ad only a veeeeeeeeeeeeery little part of Cyttoraks power. So Cyttorak is undistructible too.

9. And after that you call me a troll? Did you read what i wrote? Galactus wasnt able to escape Cyttoraks tentacles. And about Godblast - you didnt bring facts that proves your point there. 

10. Read what i wrote above.

I dont need to post scans to prove my point. 

"

@TheUltimateSurvivor: 
IMO Cyttorak is pure hyperbole and has done nothing to put in on the level of any of these threads you see him in. As mentioned by Prince CortSether, all it takes to defeat him is a powerhouse punching him out, removing the jem from his head and its game over.

I'm not a big fan of Shuma-Gorath but it does have some impressive feats aside from the ones already mentioned. (You may know already)

Shuma-Gorath and the many angled ones were able to kill the Abstract of death and completly dominate cosmic abstracts from alternate realities. To my knowledge this was done mostly off panel unless I missed some tie inn's to the TI. It was however stated to be a fact on panel by Thanos and many others. I don't think they would have got that far if they had started in the 616 Universe, the abstracts there seem to be the most powerful. It was also stated that in the alternate realities that Shuma-Gorath took over he and the many angled ones had a much closer connection so there power was greater in those realities.

~spelling~

"

@TheUltimateSurvivor: 
IMO Cyttorak is pure hyperbole and has done nothing to put in on the level of any of these threads you see him in. As mentioned by Prince CortSether, all it takes to defeat him is a powerhouse punching him out, removing the jem from his head and its game over.

 

I'm not a big fan of Shuma-Gorath but it does have some impressive feats aside from the ones already mentioned. (You may know already)

 

Shuma-Gorath and the many angled ones were able to kill the Abstract of death and completly dominate cosmic abstracts from alternate realities. To my knowledge this was done mostly off panel unless I missed some tie inn's to the TI. It was however stated to be a fact on panel by Thanos and many others. I don't think they would have got that far if they had started in the 616 Universe, the abstracts there seem to be the most powerful. It was also stated that in the alternate realities that Shuma-Gorath took over he and the many angled ones had a much closer connection so there power was greater in those realities.

 

~spelling~

"

     
 
 normally  king would wear some sort of a jewel on his head in a form of opal, ruby, or crystal...

Just glanced at this last page for a few minutes, and I'm already exhausted.

" Just glanced at this last page for a few minutes, and I'm already exhausted. "

" @CapitolPunishment said:

"

@TheUltimateSurvivor: 
IMO Cyttorak is pure hyperbole and has done nothing to put in on the level of any of these threads you see him in. As mentioned by Prince CortSether, all it takes to defeat him is a powerhouse punching him out, removing the jem from his head and its game over.

 

I'm not a big fan of Shuma-Gorath but it does have some impressive feats aside from the ones already mentioned. (You may know already)

 

Shuma-Gorath and the many angled ones were able to kill the Abstract of death and completly dominate cosmic abstracts from alternate realities. To my knowledge this was done mostly off panel unless I missed some tie inn's to the TI. It was however stated to be a fact on panel by Thanos and many others. I don't think they would have got that far if they had started in the 616 Universe, the abstracts there seem to be the most powerful. It was also stated that in the alternate realities that Shuma-Gorath took over he and the many angled ones had a much closer connection so there power was greater in those realities.

 

~spelling~

"

imo hyperbole is sometimes the only way to describe something that is already so anonymously vague.

as for prince's statement about the incident between juggernaut and cyttorak, that was clearly hyperbole itself since cyttorak wasn't even the elfman with the gem on his head to begin with...

you see, this is the problem with comics and people reading it...

when a writer intends to use an m-body to portray an abstract, some readers will not comprehend that and will think that what they see is a physical object of that character.

the only cyttorak with a gem on his head is the "korean king" version....

but everyone should question.... "why does cyttorak has sooo many forms"???

well? it is because he has no true physical form!

he is the crimson cosmos!! a timeless space that isn't even a physical area unless it needs to be to summon other physical things inside it.

"why is the korean king version of cyttorak wearing a gem on his head"????

well, obviously, it is used for symbolism! a king with the power (gem). it is complete metaphor and that is how the writer created cyttorak and his MANY FORMS...

korean king cyttorak = ruler symbolizing power

red armor cyttorak with horns = symbolizing war and destruction

fire headed face cyttorak = symbolizing chaos

purple light cyttorak = symbolizing mystery

red light cyttorak = symbolizing hate and corruption

"lance, why do you think the cyttorak with the gem on his head is a korean king"????

well duh!!!,  the area cyttorak materialized the gem for the 1st time was korea. and he witnessed the rulers of those eras and used that image to reflect a ruler with power in his universe. compare:

     
 
 normally  king would wear some sort of a jewel on his head in a form of opal, ruby, or crystal...

   

"what was the symbolism for the crimson gem on the head of cyttorak"???  

it symbolizes power and cyttorak KNEW that cain would recognize that gem so that cain would gain more power.... but that's exactly what cyttorak wanted cain to believe.

cain knocked cyttorak out and took the gem, but wait... cain doesn't get stronger.... he gets weaker...

this was cyttorak's way of symbolizing that "you can not forcefully take power from the creator who gave your this power."

purely metaphoric....

dr. strange knew this and played along and placed the gem back re waking up the physically form of cyttorak.... which btw, any reader would know that cyttorak was the entire area from the get go...

not just the korean king...

so yea...

juggernaut punching out cyttorak is TOTALLY different from juggernaut punching out the stranger!

it's like punching a fake vs punching the real thing...

not like juggernaut can punch the real thing anyway, because that would be like punching the air around you.

does anyone besides me know what cyttorak is now and WHY is in considered in marvel soo vague and hard to write about?

it's because a lot of readers can't comprehend metaphors.

i'm pretty sure a philosophy and literature major would deeply respect the character of cyttorak for what he presents to the readers. 

"

When Stan Lee and Jack Kirby created allot of these older powerful characters they did not include origins for them for a reason, they wanted them to have a open ended future and not place limits on what they can do. They wanted readers like you and Kinshiro to speculate and create stories like this. Unfortunately some of these characters grew so popular that the fans demanded an origin. Galactus is a prime example of this, when Lee and Kirby created him they never had a plan to make an origin but guess what? Marvel was forced to do so by the readers.

Cyttorak still does not have a complete detailed origin story because no one gives a crap about him or the Juggernaut. They have however revealed enough information about him to show that he has limits but some people just ignore that.  it is still vague enough for people like you to make up stories about characters based on pure speculation but no actual facts or feats to back this up. Marvel has shown enough about Shuma-Gorath and Cyttorak for anyone that reads about either of them to know that Shuma-Gorath would simply devour Cyttorak, in fact he would be a prime target if he was found by Shuma-Gorath.

" @texasdeathmatch said:

" Just glanced at this last page for a few minutes, and I'm already exhausted. "

Feel the same. lol "