Cyttorak vs Shuma-Gorath

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#55 Edited By kenshiroo

It seems appropriate this threat to express all my pending arguments about what I think about Shuma Gorath and Cyttorak respectively.

Shuma is not a “God” in the strict sense of the term, it is an Old One Demon (Lord of Chaos) which is able to produce its own magical energies but at very limited amount (at least that was seen when Shuma was out of its pocket realm). However, has the ability to draw energies from others beings to increase and enhance its own powers due its demonic-nature. Thus, as demons working-class living just to absorb energy from other beings and worlds “parasitically”, devouring everything in its path and planting all sorts of chaos and destruction, Shuma also would be merged with powerful wizards provided they do have large amounts of evil magic power. Shuma in its realm has been seen that it can manipulate magical energies only on a planetary scale. However, this does not indicate to be God in the strict sense but very metaphorically would be called "God of destruction."

Marvel writers to develop the dialogue of a battle where Shuma self-proclaimed itself to be among the gods (said “Mortals do not kill Gods”) is to exalt it can not be destroyed by a Mortal and intimidate Strange, so that does not refer to a true statement 100% accurate and much less when several of its arguments are intentionally created on the plot to reflect certain contradictions and exaggerations from the same characters in the comic. It is always, like the reality of our world, these characters are going to tell between them things that seem certain but really are lies and exaggerations that will not always indicate something 100% true. The plots of comics revolve this sense too, because they are plots deliberately created to reflect patterns of vulnerabilities, contradictions, strength and weakness of character (aptitude), achievements, behaviors, feelings in their character, ie, all characters within the comics are represented under the focus of psychology, reasoning and human behavior and therefore, you can see that Death is an entity that speaks, thinks, has feelings, emotions and thought, Eternity also thinks and speaks, etc. All this means that they can fall into contradiction between them and tell lies and exaggerations between them in the comic as part of the argument of these vulnerabilities or strengths of their personalities.

Therefore, for purposes of issuing a stronger interpretation and approximate to the truth, it is necessary to determine whether the facts expressed or realized by the characters in the comics corresponds and make any sense to what their creators (Marvel’s editors in chief and writers) have published and declared publicly and officially (the Bios, encyclopedias, articles and public statements in official Marvel magazines, etc.) with the purpose of investigate and make a more accurate conclusion.

So I base my judgments correlating information on the basis of facts in the comics with the official information publicly and declared by the Marvel’s authorities to analyze whether there is really a correspondence and if it makes sense what is expressed.

In this sense, the powers that Shuma Gorath has shown on comics, don’t necessarily correspond to what is said to be a God and indeed, if someone check its Marvel official Bio or any of its other official sources, you will find in any of these official sources Shuma is not characterized or described as a God or that its origin is divine, only explains that it is the Oldest of all Demons (Class 3). Doesn’t appear described qualities or attributes that indicate it has strict powers of a “God” because it is not; its nature is demonic and until now only has been shown in relation to a “God” its apparent indestructibility, the rest acts as a great and powerful Demon devourer of worlds and dimensions. Shuma Gorath's powers were never invoked by any magic user (only by his servant demonic Kathulos) of rest, Ebora was only an agent who revered Shuma but never showed signs of being able to summon its powers. This indicates that Shuma is not capable of generating its own magic energies to unlimited levels as does Cyttorak (in his pocket dimension or reality) and therefore, Shuma has never been summoned by any powerful magic’s users as: Ancient-One, Dr. Strange (obviously), Dormamu, Umar, Baron Mordo, Zom, Kaecilus, Nicodemus West, Augustyn Phyffe, Jacob Roark, or even Dr. Doom.

A pretended “God” (Shuma Gorath) out of its realm is very vulnerable to magic that can summon a mere mortal to banish it; this is not a fact that guarantees its reputation as “God” for me. Shuma has been banished by a mortal (no boosted Dr. Strange) in his second opportunity to conquer the Earth and without showing some terrible or strong evil magical power to be worthy of “God”. These actions only demonstrate that Shuma Gorath’s nature correspond to the limited actions of a Demon outside from its “pocket” realm, but not the competence of a “God” as its official Marvel Bio and informative sources indicated and described Shuma as Demon, not God, not Deity.

This continues to demonstrate both Arioch and Shuma are not gods, only powerful Demons with vast magical powers and so is described in official sources of Marvel.

The Cyttorak’s case is completely different, he is defined by the official sources of Marvel as a God/Demon, a Deity and as such has limitless magical powers in his turf, and he can never be defeated in its dimension. His appearances on comics have demonstrated and supported what its Marvel creators have said about him, in fact, strong evidence was as Galactus, Silver Surfer, but specifically Nova and Dr. Strange were helpless against his power within his pocket realm (Crimson Cosmos). The facts in comic show Cyttorak has limitless power in his realm and public and official HQ Marvel’s statements reiterated, supported and evidenced in several magazines that Cyttorak has limitless magic powers:

No matter if a Dr. Strange boosted with Arioch’s magic power faced and defeated Shuma Gorath on its realm, Strange can not and will never face victoriously with any preptime/power boosting (no matter if is Strange/Arioch) against a God as Cyttorak on his turf, because simply: Strange does not have and will never have the power to do, The power of a Demon/Magician (Arioch) is nothing compared to the infinite or limitless power of a God. Second, Strange is a magic user of Cyttorak’s magic, do you know what that means? Cyttorak is pure and infinite magic itself on his pocket dimension (Crimson Cosmos) and Strange can not fight against it because Dr. Strange uses Cyttorak’s magic to cancel or destroy other magic spells. In addition, Cyttorak’s magic and the rest of the Octessence’s magic are unconditional and essential part of the same repertoire of knowledge, skills, abilities and mystical uses of a Sorcerer Supreme. In the unlikely event, if Dr. Strange fight against Cyttorak would be to make himself a Seppuku or Harakiri as a Sorcerer.

There are still doubts about this, for me not, is the strong and clear evidence that Cyttorak has limitless magical powers and is invincible in his realm, is shown in the comics and is also reiterated several times by the official statements of the Marvel HQ writers and authorities. In this way, I can draw my conclusions without leaving ambiguities in my interpretations.

Cyttorak has unlimited magic powers in his turf, something Shuma Gorath as Demon doesn’t have in its realm, yes, it has not unlimited magical powers and the proof is that Shuma was defeated by a mortal. Dr. Stephen Strange defeated Shuma Gorath two times inside and outside its realm, then, I ask the question in the hypothetical case, Where is the invincibility and the power of a God?

Of course, this shows that Shuma is not a "God" in its realm, is just a powerful demon with vastly mystical powers and both beings (Arioch and Shuma Gorath) simply does not have infinite power in its realm. A God will never be defeated at the hands of a mortal in his realm, much less destroyed. This is the only convincing and compelling reason of why I explained consistently that Arioch was forced by Strange to merge with him being drained completely and why Shuma Gorath could not prevent its defeat by Strange in its turf. So I understand it and the facts were demonstrated in this way so according to the Marvel official information: both are demonic beings (Arioch is Demon/Magician and Shuma Gorath is an Old One/Demon 3rd Class, Lord of Chaos.

That Marvel writers may err as human beings and leave some inconsistencies in the plots, yes happens, but it is unusual, so that we as readers must investigate fully what are these alleged inconsistencies and truly discern whether it is a limitation of our understanding and knowledge of the facts or the writer is wrong (very unlikely, but it does happen). The idea is to correlate the information, investigate thoroughly and made a more open-minded about what happens in the comics but not limited to validate the dialogues of his characters as 100% true (as if what they say all the time between them was the absolute truth) which is subject to change and any type of inconsistency because their creators simply also put them to lie or exaggerate their own attributes during their actions. However, this can vary widely depending on the approach, the plot and style developed by each writer of Marvel.

This does not mean that if something goes truly wrong all is valid or invent warm water making utter fabrications. Marvel writers can leave little loose ends in certain aspects of the plot, but most times they do not do it and this is not one of those cases, however, the Marvel universe imagined by them is carried out under our laws of physics to add consistency, shape, and understandings they bring to their characters and achieve what is impossible for humans in all aspects of their cosmogony. Therefore, the writers tend to develop situations in which it represents a being that transcends the laws of physics itself in the imaginary barrier, however, this does not mean put into question or counteracts the very universal and abstract concepts in terms on the field of mathematics and physics defined in our real understanding of the things as are Infinite, Finite, the Universe, Multiverse and Omniverse. This general knowledge known to have been hypothesized and not fully proven (Multiverse and Omniverse theory) in real life but are referenced within the field of fiction and literature in comics to a greater or lesser degree as part of review and incorporation of the science itself in the comic narrative.

I can interpret what happened with Arioch at the moment he said: “I’m not even finite” (Steve Englehart’s character dialogue), he was referred immediately to his physical embodiment and meaning that can not be destroyed (following the previous argument by the above panel), also, at no time showed that Arioch had the infinite powers of a “God” but proved to be a powerful Demon/Magician. Arioch just yelled a number of threats and some exaggerations in his battle against Strange and could never define or carry out his task to the point Strange never cared about Arioch said until Arioch was eventually absorbed foolishly by Strange, ie, a Mortal. Strange forced Arioch to merge with him (A mortal never and never in life will force a God merge with him). This only proves Arioch truly had magical powers limited, and many of his arguments were seen as a mere exaggeration in his fight against Strange. A truly God with unlimited magical powers in his realm would never be absorbed by a mortal, A truly God could transform Strange in a cockroach and had crushed him. However, is coherent to understand that Arioch being absorbed (forced) and defeated by a mortal, just indicate he had vast magical powers typical of a Demon/Magician and not a God. In this sense, Arioch was shown on the plot (by Englehart) as a Demon/Magician, who exaggerated about his own power and skills to intimidate Strange but in fact were exaggerated exclamations and lies from him about his own powers that were laid bare or evidenced when was forced by Strange to merge with him, so is perfectly valid and reasonable to interpret it this way that Arioch was Demon/Magician. A Demon/Magician does not have unlimited magic powers in his realm or anywhere else because is simply: he is not God and he doesn’t have the powers of this. So is shown in this plot that there are no PIS as someone intended to mislead everybody.

Therefore, Arioch and Shuma are not gods, they are demonic beings with vast magical powers and so they are described in this way on official Marvel sources. Arioch is not a “God”, he is a powerful Demon/Magician and Shuma Gorath is a Lord of Chaos (Lord of Old Ones demons, Class 3). Therefore, both demons do have vast magical powers in their realm but not unlimited like a God, that only explains the reason of their defeats by Stephen Strange, especially the defeat of Shuma Gorath by the way of Strange’s ego self-sacrifice.

When Shuma Gorath said "I'm Infinite" (on the Fantastic Four), it referred to is Immortal, never indicated in any moment it does have limitless magical powers. Nowhere in the comics Marvel Official sources said that Shuma Gorath had had unlimited magic powers on its realm. Otherwise, only was indicated on some sources that its powers are vast. Marvel official sources have indicated that Shuma Gorath is only a Lord of Chaos/Demon but has not outlined that has unlimited power in its realm. However, outlines an apparent or alleged "Omnipotence" in its realm. It was a controversial term that can be debated against what has been aversely showed in all its own facts.

The terms of infinite (or limitless) power and omnipotence are two different things. Infinite power is an inherent aspect in the Omnipotence but it does not mean being Omnipotent. Having limitless power is conditioned solely to the unlimited capacity to realize one or more things according to specific characteristics or attributes of someone or something, for example, you can be a God who has the ability in your own realm to do the following: can have infinite power for physical force, to have telekinesis, to create simple forms of life, to have invulnerability but you don’t have infinite or limitless power to change the time, to change the will of someone, to revive the dead, to change the subject. This means you can have infinite power only for certain things in which you specialize but that do not make you Omnipotent.

The infinite power is restricted only to the capacity of one or more attributes or qualities of being, however Omnipotence uses the unlimited o limitless power to do anything subject to the imagination, the will and desire to do everything, whatever. Omnipotence allows you to change everything, change the rules of physical laws in the Universe, Multiverse or Omniverse if you want, change the rules of logic, abstract concepts or redefine it, anything you want. Omnipotence is infinite power that allows doing all, whatever and therefore, is infinitely beyond human understanding, so TOAA is the only one who has the true and ultimate Omnipotence.

The infinite power is inherent to the gods in their pocket realms, there they are restricted the amount of things that they can do within their realm. Cyttorak is an example because he has limitless magic power to invulnerability, super-strength, endurance, durability and stamina also has infinite magic power to create simple forms of life, create tentacles and crimson bands, and teleport whatever in time to anywhere; has guaranteed immortality. Cyttorak is in this sense, is a pure magic being that infinitely produces his own magic energies, is Omnipresent and Omniscient only in its Crimson Cosmos because is his own essence, however, he is not even Omnipotent within his own dimension, because simply the term Omnipotence does not apply to Cyttorak, the gods can not do whatever they want within their realms.

Infinity and limitless powers are synonymous and mean the same thing. The Gods in their pocket’s realms can not do everything they want or imagine, as I said repeatedly, they are not Omnipotent because Omnipotence means having limitless powers to do all whatever you want, anything, no restrictions of any kind. The limitless powers of a God are only limited to their functions within the pocket realm, not their imagination, they can not do whatever they want at their will. For example, if the opposite happens and they would have Omnipotence, then Nova had agreed to stay to serve at the pleasure of Cyttorak with a single thought, Cyttorak would go out from his Crimson Cosmos with limitless powers and Shuma with a thought had turned Dr. Strange into a cockroach and had won the battle.

The Omnipotence is the power to do anything you want, this power is reserved solely for TOAA who can do anything, there is no limits or obstacles to do whatever you want, so with the Omnipotence you do determine what is infinite and not is, who is pocket God and who is not, you can change minds, thoughts, feelings of other beings at your whim or they worship you without you asking them, that simple. Therefore, the gods of pocket realities are not Omnipotent because they do not have the power to do what they want in their realms but do have infinite powers according to what they do best, their qualities or roles.

Therefore, the only Omnipotent being is TOAA. Pr-Beyonder, Thanos with HOTU and IG were with being with a relative, pseudo or quasi "Omnipotence" if I can call it that, subject to a single reality or dimension Earth-616. The dimension Earth-616 is totally different and unrelated to the reality of the Crimson Cosmos.

So I think Shuma Gorath was never “Omnipotent” in its realm (The term does not apply to it) and also did not have limitless magical powers in its realm. The irrefutable proof of this Dr. Strange destroyed physically and defeated Shuma Gorath in its own realm but almost cost him his own life. The supposed "Gods" of the destruction were defeated by a mortal, Nice.

Arioch, of course was never “Omnipotent” (remember he was a Demon/Magician) and did not have limitless magical powers because he was forced to be drained completely by Dr. Strange. Strange merged with his power and was able with this to overcome Shuma destroying it in its own turf, then, to avoid being merged by Shuma, Strange self-sacrificed his ego. Dr. Strange defeated them both Demons in their turf; a mortal could defeat a Lord of Chaos, yes, and two times. But later this mortal with all the preparation, knowledge and experience of having defeated Shuma Gorath could not defeat a Cyttorak on his turf because is a true God, then, what dose suggests that Cyttorak can not defeat Shuma? Nothing, Cyttorak can defeat Shuma in everywhere.

A Demon as Shuma can not drain Cyttorak’s infinite mystical energies because he is infinite magic, in addition Cyttorak is who has the truly limitless magical power of a real God, so he has the power to defeat Shuma Gorath via banish or who knows, could be is the only one who can truly destroy Shuma Gorath completely.

Cyttorak wins 10/10

13 years ago

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#56 Edited By Prince CortSether

@kenshiroo: You're making a ton of stuff up, Kenshiro. And because this post is so long, I'll just bring my response from the locked Octessence vs Shuma-Gorath thread. It'll dispel your arguments for your most recent post in this thread anyway, since you said most of the same things.

"Wrong, you can not define the right and wrong in terms of my interpretation and much less when it can have more than one interpretation of a single event. I can interpret the Kaluu’s opinion was entirely circumstantial exaggeration; due he was sooo weak in Shuma’s realm. You can not prove as true a metaphor or hyperbole of someone under that state of weakness. You can only refute me if you have a scan where Kaluu has fought with Sattanish and Mephisto to say he does have knowingly. There is not explicit and implicit. Do you have any scan? If he does have, is true, if not is a metaphor and hyperbole circumstantial of him."

- I don't see how there are multiple ways to interpret that event. The evil energies of the realm Kaluu and Doctor Strange had entered were so strong that Kaluu collapsed and could not continue. There is nothing to suggest that it was exaggeration on Kaluu's part. What we have is Kaluu's word alone to communicate the scope of power in that realm. Kaluu is arguably the most powerful mortal practitioner of black magic in the Marvel Universe. He has substantial knowledge of spells from the Book of the Vishanti and spells from Chthon's Darkhold. He taps into the life force of others and is also capable of necromancy. He is well associated with the powers of lesser demons and knows what they are capable of. As I said before there was nothing to indicate Kaluu's statement was merely exaggeration and therefore his words stated on panel have to be considered 100% concrete.

"False, I never ask you such a thing, I just wanted to say that both Mephisto and Sattanish are inferior to Cyttorak too. The Kaluu’s hyperbole and metaphor not mean a feat that demonstrates any inferiority of them against Shuma Gorath. Kaluu never fought with them before."

- As a master practitioner of black magic, Kaluu would know full well the scope of demons dealing in the black arts. IF Kaluu was merely exaggerating the strength of the realm then it isn't suggested anywhere. Doctor Strange didn't disagree with Kaluu's statement in the slightest. The depth of the journey into realms where no mortals have ever gone before was highly stressed. The whole point was to show how perilous Doctor Strange's quest was. The story wouldn't be emphasizing Kaluu's collapse during their journey unless it wanted to demonstrate how strong the challenge ahead was.

"False, The Vishanti never went with Strange to confront Shuma Gorath in its realm because they did not want intervene again, leaving Strange on free will to do it, as they predicted. Therefore, The Vishanti never intervened or helped Strange in his battle against Shuma."

- I never said The Vishanti traveled with Doctor Strange to Shuma-Gorath's realm. However, just because The Vishanti didn't go with Strange doesn't mean that he had none of their power. Strange had the knowledge of all previous spells/incantations derived from The Vishanti as well as all of the mystical artifacts originating from them. Strange had asked The Vishanti if they would be the ones to save the Earth from Shuma-Gorath and as you are aware they replied that they would not. That just shows that they would not intervene personally that doesn't show that Strange was not allowed to use the power he had already gotten from the Vishanti previously.

"Correction, The Vishanti plus other gods were rendered ineffective within Cyttorak's realm, therefore, The Vishanti’s powers plus other pantheon of gods are < Cyttorak’s powers."

- Were any of the Gods Strange called upon actually in Cyttorak's realm? No. There's a big difference between invoking the spells of a God from a completely alien dimension and having Gods fight on even grounds. It was Cyttorak's realm where he had control over everything and nobody equal in power was in the realm to challenge him. But say the Gods that Strange called upon actually travelled into the Crimson Cosmos to challenge Cyttorak, it would be a different story. For example, on Kathulos, Strange is unable to use any spells because Kathulos will not allow it as he is omnipotent on himself. Does that mean Kathulos is stronger than Cyttorak now? Obviously not. It just means that he dictates the rules and since he is the strongest one there at that point, he can negate any magic he so chooses. It'd definitely be a different story if Cyttorak had popped up on Kathulos. You think Kathulos would be able to negate his magic then?

"Again, Strange never needed to use some spells of these pantheons of gods to defeat Shuma. Strange just was enough to seize Arioch’s powers, then, to face Shuma and overcome its powers destroying it physically. Later, to avoid his spiritual corruption, Strange sacrificed his own ego after being merged with Shuma due to large amounts of evil energy absorbed (Black Magic plus Arioch plus Shuma)."

- Strange not attempting to use any spells of The Vishanti simply demonstrates how useless they were at that point. Nothing Strange had in his arsenal before merging with Arioch would have done anything to Shuma-Gorath because he dwarfed Strange in power. Again with the Arioch thing...are you the only one who cannot detect the PIS in that instance? I'll ask you again, when has Doctor Strange before or after that point been able to force a God to merge with him? If it was that easy in that instance then he should have been able to do it against any of Shuma-Gorath's other servants, like Nightmare or Kathulos, and Arioch was already demonstrated to be the most powerful servant of all, so it should have been even easier beforehand. It's called PIS and it's weaved in comics constantly.

"Kathulos, N’Thaga Krakor, N’ Gabthoth, Sligguth, were the most powerful Shuma Gorath’s agents (apart Arioch). However, among all them, Kathulos was the most powerful and deadly. All Kathulos's powers were granted by Shuma Gorath’s magic, but unfortunately Kathulos was destroyed by Dr. Strange conjuring Cyttorak’s powers."

- The scan you use of Kathulos proves your own argument wrong. Kathulos was not granted ALL of his powers by Shuma-Gorath. The ONLY powers granted to Kathulos by Shuma-Gorath was the ability to pull Doctor Strange through a space warp and force him onto himself (Kathulos). It is even said in the very scan you posted "I have brought you here by powers granted to me by the dread Shuma-Gorath!" Notice how in that word bubble, brought is being bolded. Everything else Kathulos did in his battle with Strange was due to his own ability. Unless you want to argue that Shuma-Gorath needed to lend Kathulos his own power in order for Kathulos to be able to strangle Strange with his vines? :D

"Kathulos works just as it does Shuma Gorath: absorbing energy and merging with others, is the same Shuma Gorath's powers (parasitic attack). This is an clear indication that supports the effectiveness of Cyttorak’s magic over Shuma’s magic. No matter the extent of such."

- So you're saying that because Shuma-Gorath and Kathulos are both able to absorb other entities it means Cyttorak's powers are greater than Shuma-Gorath's? Firstly, Shuma-Gorath and Kathulos do not absorb entities in the same way. Shuma-Gorath can feed off of any type of energy and devours entire universes (dimensions). Kathulos doesn't devour actualities. He puts single entities in a trance by mesmerizing them and drawing them into an Astral Plane where he then absorbs the entities soul/being, forcing a merging. However, during this process he is unable to negate any magic, which is how Strange was able to overcome him. Shuma-Gorath and Kathulos work entirely differently. Secondly, in no way do either of their abilities equate to Cyttorak being Shuma-Gorath's superior. Yes, Cyttorak is definitely Kathulos' superior but not because of the way in which Kathulos absorbs people. They have nothing to do with each other and are entirely unrelated.

"I do respond again: Completely False, I think you're missing a small-great detail, Strange had a great preparation for dealing with Shuma Gorath, yes, I’ve stated before, however, in the order of events, Strange defeated Shuma Gorath long before confronting Cyttorak, therefore, Strange in theory should have been better prepared to stand a "lesser God" as your supposed to believe is Cyttorak in his realm, but mournfully he could not, What did it the result? Strange was completely helpless, i.e., his experience and knowledge acquired against Shuma Gorath nothing helped himself to protect his own life against Cyttorak as already was The Sorcerer Supreme. This only reveals that Cyttorak is not a lesser God; on the contrary, this shows the superiority of Cyttorak because he was confronted by a Dr. Strange more mature, wiser and with wider powers and better prepared as the Sorcerer Supreme. This was an incredible feat. Please note that his meeting with Cyttorak was a subsequent event after his confrontation with Shuma Gorath when he barely made his debut as the Sorcerer Supreme. This reiterates the superiority of Cyttorak again."

- Strange's long, drawn out confrontation with Shuma-Gorath may have been long before Strange encountered Cyttorak within the Crimson Cosmos, but that doesn't mean he was better prepared to face Cyttorak. i'll use an analogy again because you love my analogies so much lol. I could be in the middle of the ocean in my scuba gear in front of a great white shark, and with me I have a large spear gun and all the necessary tools to do the shark serious damage. I know what to do in that instance and have a great chance of getting out alive. But say I go into the ocean at a separate point in time and encounter another shark, except this time I have only my scuba gear and no weapons to defend myself. I'm completely screwed. Yeah, I know how to defend myself and battle a shark when I have all the necessary precautions and equipment, but when I have none of that underwater weaponry (let's think of these weapons as Strange's merging with Arioch) all my knowledge isn't going to get me very far. In terms of the actual comics, Strange may have been wiser due to his previous experience of battling a God in its own turf, but he had none of the necessary prep time/power boosting necessary to go hand-in-hand with his greater knowledge.

"This means that you recognize that Cyttorak was superior over Shuma because Strange then required having an even greater preparation to face a God, because his experience and knowledge with Shuma not helped him to face a God as Cyttorak, therefore, the prove was that he could not merge with him. Makes sense and meaning, Strange can merge with a demonic parasite but can not merge with a God. Don't worry, later when you get the point about the nature of both, will be explained in detail."

- This does not mean that I recognize Cyttorak as Shuma-Gorath's superior. I still hold my opinion that Shuma-Gorath is superior to Cyttorak in all areas. I already explained how the good doctor's greater wisdom at the time of his encounter with Cyttorak doesn't matter at all. Strange couldn't simply merge with anybody before or after that encounter with Arioch. I think you know it was a PIS incident yet you want to continue ignoring it for the sake of your argument. Shuma-Gorath is a God. No ifs ands or buts. You're opening a whole new can of worms in trying to argue that Shuma-Gorath is a "parasite" and not a God. Yes, Shuma-Gorath has parasitic characteristics in that he leeches energy. However, he's still a God. Shuma-Gorath refers to himself as a God, in the Fantastic Four issue with a weakened Shuma-Gorath the narrator even refers to Shuma-Gorath as "the Dark God". The Lord of Chaos is a God. That simple.

"Is not correct, is correct to say: “Strange needed to fuse with a vastly being as Arioch to even enter Shuma's turf".

- Arioch is an infinite in his realm. What I said stands.

"What kind of invention is this? There is only one Dr. Stephen Strange did have before the opportunity to absorb the power and have control over the Arioch’s magic. A Strange went through this experience (knowledge of having absorbed a being with vast powers as Arioch) could not merge with God (Cyttorak). Again, this demonstrates the superiority of Cyttorak’s divine nature over Shuma who is not a God."

- It's an invention now to say a mortal merged with a God is >>>>>>>>> a mere mortal? Uhm, whatever you say dude. No matter what way you try to spin it Strange/Arioch is infinitely more powerful than Strange by himself. That's all there is to it. Again, his forcing Arioch to merge with him is PIS. Do you know what PIS is? Strange was only able to force Arioch to merge with him for the sake of plot.

"Shuma Gorath’s magic power was not unlimited in his realm, look the contradictory and wrong for these: you can not drain the infinite energy of someone because it is infinite, so you'll never finish to drain infinite energy of someone because is endless, never going to end up drain."

- Try and explain the definition of infinite to comic writers. They don't care. In DC Comics, for example, COIE Anti-Monitor reduced an infinite number of universes to a finite amount. It's not possible using real world logic, but it happens in comics all the time. Marvel is filled with contradictory things like that all the time. For instance, Marvel says it has its own omniverse...which doesn't make sense. However it's written as such on panel. In the case of Arioch, Steve Englehart wrote that Arioch's power was not even finite and when he wrote that it's what he meant.

"I think that is backwards: comic writers in Marvel and DC don't operate with your logic, dude."

- That would be true because comics aren't restricted to real world examples. You just don't get it. Unless you want to explain to me what a pocket realm is in real life? Or how about giving me a real world example of a multiverse?

"False, on the Plot never said Arioch has infinite magical powers, you should stop lying."

- Arioch's power was stated on panel to not be finite. Who's lying?

"Arioch had vast magic power but not infinite (as I shall show later as he said Sise-Neg) so it was absorbed by Dr. Strange and was merged under his control, Strange lost much of his principles and vows but not entirely his humanity and spiritual integrity (still a 100% mortal as Shuma said him). If you have infinite magical powers, you can not be absorbed by someone with finite or less magical powers."

- Arioch was infinite within his realm. All gods are within their realms because it's their own pocket dimension and they can do whatever they want (until someone more powerful comes along and overrides their omnipotence). Doctor Strange absorbed a single entity that contained an infinite amount of magical power. You yourself maintain that Cyttorak has infinite power within his Crimson Cosmos, yet you want to say that it is impossible for an entity to contain infinite energy? You're contradicting yourself. An entity can contain an infinite flow of magical power within their own realm, meaning it isn't going to run out and they can do whatever they want with it. All you're doing is pointing out the PIS with Arioch.

"My explanation again to understand how it was defeated Arioch. If Arioch had infinite magical power as you supposedly think he had defeated Stephen in a blink of an eye, for common sense, and therefore, Arioch with his infinite mystical power had never been absorbed by Strange, Arioch never would have allowed be absorbed by Strange because he has infinite powers,"

- And thus you recognize the absolute PIS of the entire situation. You recognize it. It's right in front of you. Now stop ignoring it and trying to turn it into something that it wasn't.

"but unfortunately the opposite happened, Arioch never had such unlimited magical power and the proof of this is that Arioch was absorbed by Strange who is a finite being. Strange was able to absorb the magical powers of Arioch as if nothing, this means that no are unlimited. If you have always infinite magical powers, you will impose always to any finite and lesser being with less magical powers. Arioch said himself: he could only be as strong as he can imagine, this does not mean infinite power, as you think Cort, and the imagination does have limits as well as the knowledge of something. The imagination is not unlimited because it depends and is limited by the knowledge that you have about something. Arioch's imagination was limited because he could not avoid being absorbed by Strange who is a finite being with less magic than him; therefore, Arioch never imagined it would be absorbed by Strange. Where are now the infinite powers of Arioch? If Arioch had infinite magical powers Why not avoid being absorbed by Strange or not being under his control with a single thought? Arioch had no unlimited magical powers. Someone with infinite magic can not be drained by one finite because his magic is endless, not a being with infinite magical power can be absorbed by someone finite precisely because its power can not be contained and controlled by someone with finite magic."

- All Gods have infinite power within their own pocket realm. Infinite in that its neverending, not going to run dry. They can also do anything their imagination can conceive. They are absolute in the realm until someone of greater omnipotence enters. That is why Strange forcing Arioch to merge with him is PIS. For one, Strange has never been able to do that before or after that case. Secondly, the only ones who would be able to force Arioch to merge with them are Gods that supersede Arioch in power.

"Strange just merged with them (according the Plot) to defeat Shuma with the idea of self-sacrifice, because Shuma it is a parasite demon (not a God) that feeds on the energies of other beings without producing its own."

- Shuma-Gorath has already shown capable of generating its own mystical energy. It has its own mystical power but is also capable of draining from others in order to feed itself. And I'll type it down again, Shuma-Gorath is a God. G-O-D. It calls itself a God on panel, and the narrator calls Shuma-Gorath a God on panel.

"Therefore, how can you beat someone that absorb the same evil energy limited at some point?. The answer: draining Arioch’s finite energies to merge with him and match and surpass Shuma’s magical powers (which were also limited because Strange canceled its spell to destroy the earth) like this Strange physically destroyed Shuma preventing the Earth’s destruction."

- I think you need to look at the battle between Strange/Arioch and Shuma-Gorath again. Strange/Arioch was never able to actually harm Shuma-Gorath until he was already in the process of becoming Shuma-Gorath itself. Shuma never actually tried to destroy the Earth with that spell, he merely taunted Strange with it. And Strange never cancelled Shuma's spell. Actually when he tried to it made everybody on earth writhe in agony.

"According Sise-Neg, (here is another irrefutable proof) indicates that the mystical energies in the universe is finite. This corroborates my statement that the energy drained from Shuma Gorath by Sise-Neg was also finite because this way did fall him into a state of sleep, someone with endless energy will not fall asleep, much less because someone drains his energies to almost empty. So, that Arioch and Shuma never had endless magic energy in the whole Universe."

- The mystical energy in the main universe/timeline was proven to be finite. That says nothing about pocket realms situated in a universe of their very own. Yea, nobody ever said Shuma-Gorath had unlimited energy absolutely everywhere. It's only within their pocket realms.

"This means that no living being has infinite magical powers (except Cyttorak in Crimson Cosmos).This supports my theory of zero capacity of Shuma to generate its own energy. If anyone has any evidence where I can see Shuma creating its own energy without absorbing other creatures, then would I see the scan yep?."

- LOL. Did you really just try and build this whole argument that nobody has infinite magical power and then turn around and say "except for Cyttorak"? Your theory of Shuma not being able to generate its own energy is wrong because it has been depicted as doing so on panel. Yea, the scan where he generated earth's replica came from Shuma-Gorath's own energy. >XD You're hilarious.


'Where Steve Englehart did say that? Do you have the scan? Or do you declare a liar?."

- Do I REALLY need to explain to you what PIS is? Writers either tone down super powerful characters so as to make battles with them more interesting or they'll pull an ability/spell out of their ass so as to defeat a super powered being that a character wouldn't have been able to defeat under normal circumstances (due to previously defined power sets or a character's conceptual purpose).

"The plot has never indicated that Shuma has infinite powers or is a God."

- I never said the plot indicated any of that. But the narration even declares Shuma-Gorath a God.

" Shuma is not a God and he doesn´t have infinite powers."

- Shuma-Gorath is a God and the "plot" even called it as such. In all of Shuma's appearances.

"Later, Shuma after being destroyed physically, Strange merged with Shuma; then Strange destroyed his own ego, so as to destroy Shuma Gorath. A God as Cyttorak can not be absorbed by a mortal like Strange but a parasite Demon as Shuma Gorath works in this way and live for this; however, Shuma was not aware about this self-sacrifice to be defeated by Strange in this way."

- Strange didn't actually merge with the original Shuma. Strange/Arioch was in the process of being consumed by Shuma-Gorath's energy after Shuma was apparently destroyed and eventually Shuma-Gorath would have overcome Strange and consumed him entirely. It was Strange/Arioch releasing Shuma's power which prevented this. It was Shuma-Gorath that was forcing the consumption of Strange/Arioch, not Strange/Arioch that was forcing Shuma-Gorath to merge with him. Strange/Arioch was never the one forcing a merge between the two and couldn't have even if he tried.

"Completely false, first: Shuma Gorath is not a God, therefore, he can not create anything"

- Shuma-Gorath is a God, once again. Where's your proof that Shuma-Gorath cannot create anything?

"Shuma Gorath is a Lord of Chaos and its nature is absolutely demonic and fucking parasitic, typical characteristic of the worst demons. Shuma Gorath is a Demon Class 3 and by its nature works exclusively to absorb the energies of other beings, worlds and merge with powerful sorcerers. Its magical powers is not unlimited simply because he can not produce its own magical powers, Shuma is conditioned to produce its magical powers and increase its power by the amount of energy through it can absorb from other beings and other worlds. It stands to reason that because of this, Shuma has ruled hundreds of dimensions to obtain a vast power due to large energy absorbed from these dimensions; therefore, its power is immense but is not infinite."

- Shuma-Gorath can add power to its own inherent power. It has an inherent power because it needs power in the first place in order to absorb power from others. It was already seen generating its own energy in battle with Strange before absorbing anything.

"Shuma Gorath is a parasite and parasites are not glorified by anyone, due their very nature."  Shuma doesn’t generate its own power; it can only produce magic power by absorbing energy from other beings.

- I know you believe with all your heart that this is true, but it isn't. It was shown on panel that Shuma-Gorath can generate its own power. How do you think Shuma generated the earth weapon? Or the ring of fire?

"Example, before being banished by Sise-Neg, it was seeing Shuma attacking the apes on earth, presumably, the amount of magic power was limited to the energies that could absorb from these apes."

- Can you see what you're typing? Apes don't have magic power. Shuma doesn't only drain magical energy. It can also drain life. It was just depicted eating the apes for the sake of wanting to eat them, not in order to gain "magic power". Unless apes have magic now? No, Shuma-Gorath had its own great, inherent power. It wasn't absorbing magic from apes and it hadn't absorbed the main universe it was in, meaning Shuma was functioning under its own power.

"The result that proves these is that Shuma energies were drained by Sise-Neg to the point that left Shuma in its slumbering state, ie, almost completely empty."

- Sise-Neg was almost God at that point and Shuma-Gorath was unaware of the situation which is the only reason its energy was able to be drawn away from it. Shuma's energy wasn't just energy from apes. It was put in slumber because the freakishly powerful Sise-Neg was able to draw much of Shuma's energy away.

"Otherwise, here we can see that if a being does have infinite magical powers, had never been drained until to fall asleep because his energies are just endless, infinity, limitless; simply Shuma never have fallen asleep. If Shuma was a God (in the hypothetical case), then Sise-Neg had been draining its energies for all eternity. This is proof that Shuma Gorath’s energies are not infinite."

- Nobody ever said that Shuma-Gorath's powers were limitless anywhere. A God only has limitless powers within its own pocket realm, which is separate from the main universe. That's how all Gods work. The only one in comicdom with absolutely limitless power anywhere in Marvel is TOAA.

"Only a God has unlimited power to create life and Cyttorak also has that power. Cyttorak truly has limitless powers in Crimson Cosmos, because of this; Strange could not merge with Cyttorak and was helpless in all senses."

- Cyttorak has only shown to be able to create life within his Crimson Cosmos. It's his own pocket universe separate from the main universe in which he dictates what goes on there. But here's where you are confused. Gods have unlimited power only within their own realms. And it's unlimited in the sense that it doesn't run out. A God can do whatever it can conceive of with that magic power because it is omnipotent/omnipresent within it (the God is the realm itself). However, when someone with even greater magic power enters the realm, that God's omnipotence becomes obsolete because now someone else even more powerful overrides them. This was seen when in the instance that Galactus started absorbing Mephisto's realm. All of a sudden Mephisto couldn't do whatever the heck he darn well pleased because a being of superior power was the one dictating the rules. Shuma-Gorath can do whatever it wants within its realm, but Strange was able to match him in power, because like Shuma-Gorath he now had unlimited energy coursing through him, and once he started turning into Shuma-Gorath itself he was then able to cause physical harm to Shuma-Gorath and turn its own energy against it.

"Wrong, Strange has always been empowered to use any type of magical power to banish everyone and so, he did it when transported Shuma to Stonehenge and managed to banish it beyond time and matter."

- He had to use the mystical energies of Stonehenge to open the gateway that would banish Shuma. It wasn't his own power that did the banishing or he could have done it without getting close to Shuma.

"It was Strange who banished Shuma no matter if he used the Stonehenge’s magic powers to banish it, Shuma Gorath could not absorb these energies and Strange beat him."

- Shuma-Gorath had absorbed just about all of Strange's energy, he even collapses almost immediately when he comes back. And if he used Stonehenge's magic to open the portal to banish Shuma, then it wasn't his own power that banished him, because he needed to use an historical site to do the banishing.

"Therefore, the Octessence can do the same to Shuma Gorath because among their magical abilities they can transport Shuma beyond time and matter as well. Shuma can be banished by the Octessence to a dimension beyond time and matter which can not ever return but without the need to go to Stonehenge (gateway) as Strange did it with Shuma. This would be a clear victory for Octessence via BFR."

- Conjecture, conjecture, conjecture. None of the Octessence has ever banished anybody. Shuma-Gorath has never banished anybody. However, it should be within both their power sets to do so. You can say The Octessence could banish Shuma and I could counter and say that Shuma could banish The Octessence but their will never be a definitive answer because neither have banished anyone. As such, trying to push the battle in favor of the Octessence by arguing "they could banish Shuma" won't really work.

"Above is the proof that Shuma can not generate its own energies, therefore, his mistical energies are limited to the amount of energy that can absorb from other beings. Shuma is a fucking parasite Demon; it never will be worshiped as a God, Cort"

- You didn't give any proof above. Shuma-Gorath was summoned, it decided it was hungry and started feeding on the Fantastic Four, Strange came and used Stonehenge to teleport him (in an off-panel battle no less). All that instance shows is that Shuma wanted to feed and would rather gain energy by feeding off people than waste energy by blowing things up for no reason. What does Shuma being worshipped or not have to do with anything? Serious question. In any case Shuma-Gorath was worshipped by all and obedience to its will was the wish of all creatures. Stated on panel by Ebora. So yea, it was worshipped even though worship doesn't define whether one is a God or not.

"Wrong, Sise-Neg he could do it"

- Sise-Neg surely doubted his own abilities in defeating Shuma-Gorath enough that he decided to put it to sleep. He knew Shuma-Gorath drained power and had to draw its energy away before it realized he was there. Yes he didn't want to lose his energy in doing battle with it - at the same time he wasn't sure he could even defeat it head on. Sise-Neg would have lost energy while Shuma would have gained energy. That doesn't look like a winning battle for Sise-Neg if it were indeed to lead to that. That speaks volumes for Shuma-Gorath's inherent power right there.

"because Shuma is a parasite and only feeds on the energies of its victims, again, it was clear Shuma’s energies were not unlimited because Sise-Neg drained just enough to put it to sleep and banish it. If Shuma had unlimited energy then Sise-Neg never would have done to drain enough until making it fall into the slumbering form. Shuma doesn’t have limitless magic energies, see above."

- Nobody is saying that Shuma-Gorath has unlimited magical energy anywhere, you're telling us what we already know. No Gods have unlimited energy in any place but their own pocket realm.

"These tiny motes of his memories are from Dr. Strange who had complete control to manipulate the surging sea of Arioch’s energy at his will to cut off a Shuma Gorath’s tentacle (octopus sushi) and destroy it physically. ; )"

- You've been trying to push this false claim that Strange/Arioch is equivalent to the Strange who journeyed to the Crimson Cosmos. But Strange/Arioch and normal Doctor Strange are not equivalent. It is even said immediately after Strange merges with Arioch that "Doctor Strange is no more". He was an almost entirely different entity consumed by evil energy, with a tiny bit of Strange's consciousness within him. The only reason he went through to fight Shuma is because that little aspect of Strange that was left never forgot the reason for the journey, which was to save the planet earth. Why are you making a case out of this anyway? It's very clear that it wasn't Strange as most people know him who was fighting Shuma-Gorath. It's clear he wasn't a mere mortal at the time of their battle. By the way, Strange/Arioch was unable to harm Shuma-Gorath until Shuma struck him and made Strange start the process of turning into Shuma-Gorath itself. Which is why it was even possible for Strange to harm Shuma.

"False, is a construct based on the inconsistent or incoherent interpretation of yours about what would happen if Strange/Arioch and Shuma do have infinite magical powers. If it had been well, they clash, and became equal, then they had never been destroyed each other, they had fought for all eternity and the idea of Strange's self-sacrifice would be pointless."

- The battle between Strange/Arioch and Shuma-Gorath was not entirely metaphorical. The idea of self-sacrifice was an aspect of the story but it wasn't all it was about. Granted it played a role but Strange needed to gain the power to back it up. Strange/Arioch was turning into Shuma-Gorath itself and was therefore able to wield the awesome power Shuma-Gorath generated. The self-sacrifice came into play when he decided to dedicate every aspect of himself into Shiva, the destroyer. This showed how committed he was to saving the earth from Shuma's cruelty and how he went from doubting himself for becoming a murderer (killing the Ancient One) to entirely embracing his evil nature that he was corrupted with. Self-sacrifice only played a role in Strange's inner turmoil. It doesn't change the fact that he had become Shuma-Gorath and wielded Shuma's awesome power. He became a monster to defeat a monster. Arioch's energy gave Strange that boost but it wasn't what let him destroy Shuma. It was his becoming Shuma-Gorath in all aspects that enabled him to defeat Shuma-Gorath. Shuma-Gorath even foreshadows it by quoting Friedrich Nietzsche "He who fights too long against dragons becomes a dragon himself". He became a separate Shuma-Gorath within the realm, and after the battle was over the apparently destroyed Shuma-Gorath would have taken over Strange's ego.

"But they did not have these powers (as the parasitic nature of Shuma has been explained above) Strange being finite with some amount of black magic defeated Arioch and merged with him but under the control of Dr. Strange to destroy physically Shuma, so Strange merged with Shuma under the control of Dr. Strange too (Strange was not corrupted spiritually) when Shuma was destroyed physically; then Strange self- sacrificed his ego, so as to destroy spiritually Shuma Gorath temporarily. Here there was not a clash of entities with infinite powers because two entities with infinite magical powers can not be destroyed each other. Where are the infinite powers? None of these entities were demonstrated with infinite magical power."

- I already addressed this above. Strange/Arioch became Shuma-Gorath to defeat Shuma-Gorath. He became the entity who dictated control of the realm.

"Everything indicates that the plot is totally consistent if we consider both beings (Arioch and Shuma) have vast amounts of magical powers but not limitless."

- I think you're confusing "infinite" and "limitless". Infinite is in the sense that the magic power cannot run out. Limitless refers to the scope of that power. A God's power is infinite within its own pocket realm. It's never going to run out. It's only limitless in the sense that it can do whatever it can conceive. In that sense, all Gods powers are limited to their imagination. And they are all the supreme being within their realm until one of greater power comes in, in which case the one with greater power is the new omnipotent. Again, look back at the Mephisto/Galactus example.

"Arioch had great power but was not equaled than Shuma who had more magical powers, however, when Strange absorbed Arioch’s magical energies increased his magical powers of evil to the point that he did have a sufficient level of power to confront and destroy Shuma Gorath."
- His power was enough to confront Shuma but it was never enough to actually harm it until Strange/Arioch was already in the process of becoming Shuma itself.

"The idea of Strange’s self-sacrifice was to prevent the corruption of his spirit and prevent the resurgence of Shuma if he were using some spell in the name of. How do you explain that a finite being as Strange was able to control a being with infinite powers within?"

- Because Strange was the one who forced the merging. Also plot.

"Impossible, therefore, the logic remains that Shuma Gorath’s powers were not infinite, were vast but not infinite, so Shuma was controlled and neutralized by Strange/Arioch (Shuma was destroyed) before Shuma could destroy the earth and before the self-sacrifice of Strange’s ego to prevent its resurgence".

- It's only impossible because you want it to be that way. Steve Englehart wrote the story. It was Strange's journey from the beginning so he's not going to erase the Doctor Strange personality from a Doctor Strange comic just because he fused. Who would read the story then? It also wouldn't make sense because if Arioch was the one in control after the merging then a) the fusion would be pointless because it'd be a self-defeat for Strange and b) Arioch wouldn't continue to confront Shuma.

"The full truth, if Shuma Gorath being a parasitic Demon that works by absorbing energies and merging with others had infinite magical powers, then Shuma generate its own unlimited magic power, Shuma never need to feed on other energy to produce its own, never weaken, never have fallen asleep when much of its supposed infinite magic energy was drained by Sise-Neg, had never been physically destroyed, it had never been weak and hungry, never had ceased itself to be transported to Stonehenge and being banished by Strange invoking the simple magic of Stonehenge. Therefore, all this shows that Shuma has no infinite magical energies because he had all these problems that clearly indicate the limits of its mystical energies."

- All of those instances you mentioned refer to when Shuma-Gorath was outside of its pocket dimension. And nobody ever said that Shuma-Gorath had unlimited energy in every single place in the Marvel Universe. I believe I already explained to you multiple times above how Shuma was able to be defeated within its realm.

"I said it before Shuma is a parasite Demon, Shuma only has capacity to absorb energy from other beings and is not capable of generating its own energy as opposed to Cyttorak who does it and does have limitless magic energies."

- Shuma-Gorath is a Lord of Chaos, not a "parasite Demon". Marvel has no definition of a parasite demon anywhere. Shuma-Gorath has been called a Lord of Chaos and a God. Never a parasite demon. Stop making up terms that don't exist for characters you didn't write about. Shuma-Gorath is capable of absorbing energy from others but that is in addition to its own inherent power. You can't have power to force power away from others if you don't have your own inherent power to back it up. I love how you just throw Cyttorak in there again as if he is an exception to everything in Marvel everywhere, you know, just because you say so.

"Both are beings that they can not kill each other. Shuma can not drain a magical being with infinite magic power as Cyttorak for all eternity and who can not be destroyed."

- Shuma has shown to feed off of anything it has targeted and devours entire actualities. He could devour the Crimson Cosmos if he wanted to, seeing as that's a pocket universe as well. Sise-Neg was almost completely done with the end of his journey and Shuma was the ONLY thing in the way of him absorbing all the energy in the main universe. Yet he was STILL weary of trying to destroy Shuma head on. This shows me that Cyttorak wouldn't have a chance.

-All of the members of the Octessence are only omnipotent within their own realms, just like Shuma-Gorath (only omnipotent in its own realm). However, Shuma-Gorath has the added advantage in that it can absorb energy from outside sources. The OP's battle is in a neutral realm, meaning nobody in this battle is omnipotent. Shuma would be the only one able to get stronger by feeding off of Octessence magic and possibly devouring the entities themselves.

Shuma can not be destroyed with black magic but it can be weakened and banished out of his dimension. It is clear that there can be a victory for the Octessence via BFR, or be a stalemate battle.

- Or Shuma just does the practical thing and destroys all of the Octessence with its superior power.

"Shuma "Was weak and hungry",then, you recognize how limited are the magic energies of Shuma Gorath. I congratulate you, then, where is the supposed ability to generate its own infinite energy? where are its limitless magical energies which doesn’t let it in any second to be weak or energy-hungry? See above ^__^"

- Well, you feel proud of yourself, and I guess that's important. It almost makes me sorry to say again that you're stating the obvious. Nobody said Shuma-Gorath was omnipotent everywhere. The difference between Shuma and Gods like Cyttorak is that Shuma can venture out of its realm and be super powerful outside of it because of its ability to absorb all types of energy and even entire actualities, whereas Cyttorak and the rest of his cronies are practically useless out of their little pocket universes.

"Wrong, they have been proven to be superior because each entity has vast magical powers and ability to banish powerful magical beings, however, Cyttorak has proven to be the most powerful ofall them because he is the only God/Demon with unlimited magical powers in his Crimson Cosmos. The Octessence has the power to banish a parasite like Shuma Gorath, if Strange who is one being less than the Octessence did it, nothing indicates that they can not do it the Octessence due Shuma doesn't have unlimited powers within or outside of its realm"

- I ask you, when have any of The Octessence used their power to banish anyone? All you're posting is conjecture at this point. Not to mention, it's all fine and dandy that Cyttorak is powerful within the Crimson Cosmos, but this battle isn't in the Crimson Cosmos. It's in a neutral realm, where Cyttorak doesn't have unlimited power, but Shuma can gain power because it absorbs actualities. Shuma-Gorath is omnipotent within its realm just like Cyttorak is omnipotent within his realm or like other Gods are omnipotent within their realms. They are unlimited/omnipotent until someone of a greater degree in power comes in and forces them to keep their mouths shut. Just look at Pre-Retcon Beyonder. He was defeating with ease all sorts of beings who have omnipotence within their realms. Their omnipotence didn't mean anything to PR Beyonder though because his degree of omnipotence dwarfed all of theirs.

"Dr. Strange with all his preparation, knowledge and limitations defeated Shuma Gorath two times in which he once banished it. Dr. Strange as Sorcerer Supreme is a being completely inferior than Cyttorak; even he is not comparable with Cyttorak under any aspect. Strange was helpless against him and he can’t go against his own magic spell (Octessence’s magic entities) to the point that had to give them up once time. This makes me think, then, Cyttorak and the rest of the Octessence have the power to banish Shuma to another dimension of no return and win by BFR, is a valid opinion based on what The Exemplars (Octessence’s avatars), Strange (as a catalyst for measuring magic power) and Cyttorak have done."

- Strange collapsed the Ancient One's mind in order to close Shuma's gateway and the second time used Stonehenge's energy. Both were very circumstancial. What's Strange going to do to Cyttorak within the Crimson Cosmos, banish him outside of his own realm? LOL. You're trying to compare completely different situations.

"Even the same Shuma told Strange was still a mortal, also Strange did have his tiny motes of memories, fears, etc. from his human spirit that did have full control of all Arioch’s power, who wasn’t God."

- Shuma called Strange a mortal because he detected that aspect of Strange. However Strange/Arioch corrected Shuma and revealed that he was no longer a mere mortal. He was a God. Arioch was a Lord of Chaos, a God. Strange merged with...are you ready? A God. It's quite simple.

"Shuma has no power to banish a God, this was never occurred in the comics but it was shown that Shuma can be banished by Strange. Again, Shuma is not a God; Shuma is a demonic parasite and its powers come from the absorption of energy from other creatures. Again, Shuma energies were drained by Sise-Neg until it fell asleep, so Shuma’s energies does have limits."

- Shuma has never banished anyone, sure. But I can't recall a single instance of any of the Octessence banishing somebody either. Conjecture doesn't work well in arguments buddy. Yes, keep telling us what we already know.

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#57 Edited By kenshiroo

@Prince CortSether said:

" @kenshiroo: You're making a ton of stuff up, Kenshiro. And because this post is so long, I'll just bring my response from the locked Octessence vs Shuma-Gorath thread. It'll dispel your arguments for your most recent post in this thread anyway, since you said most of the same things.

- I don't see how there are multiple ways to interpret that event. The evil energies of the realm Kaluu and Doctor Strange had entered were so strong that Kaluu collapsed and could not continue. There is nothing to suggest that it was exaggeration on Kaluu's part. What we have is Kaluu's word alone to communicate the scope of power in that realm. Kaluu is arguably the most powerful mortal practitioner of black magic in the Marvel Universe. He has substantial knowledge of spells from the Book of the Vishanti and spells from Chthon's Darkhold. He taps into the life force of others and is also capable of necromancy. He is well associated with the powers of lesser demons and knows what they are capable of. As I said before there was nothing to indicate Kaluu's statement was merely exaggeration and therefore his words stated on panel have to be considered 100% concrete.

Again, I considered Kaluu’s opinion was highly exaggerated because he was very weak in this situation by the evil energy given off on Shuma’s realm, which overwhelmed him. I know perfectly well that Kaluu is a professional black magic and he can know the extent of almost any black magic, however, what he told there actually until fact is a long way, he has never fought directly with Sattanish and Mephisto in their realms, therefore, remains an exaggerated opinion conditioned by how weak he was in Shuma’s realm. If Kaluu told this to Strange not being in a position of weakness, then, is a claim 100% true. Strange never had to refute anything because he never was affected by these malignant energies.

Again, I can interpret this as a circumstantial exaggeration due the situation of Kaluu’s vulnerability and weakness was when he issued the opinion. However, is likely that his exaggeration would have some truth, but is not sure and I don’ know to what extent, I will never be known unless if Kaluu has fought before directly with Mephisto and Sattanish in their realms.

At least there are two possible interpretations of this very circumstantial event about Kaluu indicating an alleged or relative inferiority Mephisto and Sattanish against Shuma Gorath, that's all.

@Prince CortSether said:

"False, I never ask you such a thing, I just wanted to say that both Mephisto and Sattanish are inferior to Cyttorak too. The Kaluu’s hyperbole and metaphor not mean a feat that demonstrates any inferiority of them against Shuma Gorath. Kaluu never fought with them before."

- As a master practitioner of black magic, Kaluu would know full well the scope of demons dealing in the black arts. IF Kaluu was merely exaggerating the strength of the realm then it isn't suggested anywhere. Doctor Strange didn't disagree with Kaluu's statement in the slightest. The depth of the journey into realms where no mortals have ever gone before was highly stressed. The whole point was to show how perilous Doctor Strange's quest was. The story wouldn't be emphasizing Kaluu's collapse during their journey unless it wanted to demonstrate how strong the challenge ahead was.

False, Kaluu never suggested anything to Strange, he just fell weakened by hostile energies emanated from Shuma's realm and were affecting him, therefore, Kaluu issued this circumstantial opinion it can be interpreted as an exaggeration at this moment and that he could offer Strange an idea of what he might face. However, Strange is also a mortal like Kaluu, unlike him, he never was affected by such energy and was better prepared to confront any demonic being no matter how powerful it was.

@Prince CortSether said:

"- I never said The Vishanti traveled with Doctor Strange to Shuma-Gorath's realm. However, just because The Vishanti didn't go with Strange doesn't mean that he had none of their power. Strange had the knowledge of all previous spells/incantations derived from The Vishanti as well as all of the mystical artifacts originating from them. Strange had asked The Vishanti if they would be the ones to save the Earth from Shuma-Gorath and as you are aware they replied that they would not. That just shows that they would not intervene personally that doesn't show that Strange was not allowed to use the power he had already gotten from the Vishanti previously.
"

False, Strange never used the powers of Vishanti against Shuma Gorath simply because Strange could never do it. The Vishanti beforehand, refused to give any assistance to him and would not intervene again in another fight against Shuma Gorath because they were not concerned about it. The Vishanti warned and predicted Strange would be who have the power to do it.

@Prince CortSether said:

- Were any of the Gods Strange called upon actually in Cyttorak's realm? No. There's a big difference between invoking the spells of a God from a completely alien dimension and having Gods fight on even grounds. It was Cyttorak's realm where he had control over everything and nobody equal in power was in the realm to challenge him. But say the Gods that Strange called upon actually travelled into the Crimson Cosmos to challenge Cyttorak, it would be a different story. For example, on Kathulos, Strange is unable to use any spells because Kathulos will not allow it as he is omnipotent on himself. Does that mean Kathulos is stronger than Cyttorak now? Obviously not. It just means that he dictates the rules and since he is the strongest one there at that point, he can negate any magic he so chooses. It'd definitely be a different story if Cyttorak had popped up on Kathulos. You think Kathulos would be able to negate his magic then?

"

False, I never said that the gods will travel to the Cyttorak’s realm to confront him; incantations in the name of Powerful Entities could not help Strange on Cyttorak’s realm. Strange who had full power and plenty authority as a Sorcerer Supreme to call the magic powers of these entities not received any help or response. Is respect for Cyttorak's limitless powers on his pocket reality? Yes, because is a really God.

For Kathulos case, argues a falsehood, you can not compare Kathulos who is a Shuma Gorath’s demon servant totally insignificant to Cyttorak. Strange had the power to call the powers of Cyttorak on the Kathulos’s planet where he claimed to be invincible, however, after Strange broke the Kathulos’s trance and summoned the Cyttorak’s Crimson power to destroy him.

@Prince CortSether said:

" - Strange not attempting to use any spells of The Vishanti simply demonstrates how useless they were at that point. Nothing Strange had in his arsenal before merging with Arioch would have done anything to Shuma-Gorath because he dwarfed Strange in power. Again with the Arioch thing...are you the only one who cannot detect the PIS in that instance? I'll ask you again, when has Doctor Strange before or after that point been able to force a God to merge with him? If it was that easy in that instance then he should have been able to do it against any of Shuma-Gorath's other servants, like Nightmare or Kathulos, and Arioch was already demonstrated to be the most powerful servant of all, so it should have been even easier beforehand. It's called PIS and it's weaved in comics constantly.

False, again, Strange never invoke the Vishanti’s powers because they said him much earlier they would not intervene under any circumstances.

@Prince CortSether said:

- The scan you use of Kathulos proves your own argument wrong. Kathulos was not granted ALL of his powers by Shuma-Gorath. The ONLY powers granted to Kathulos by Shuma-Gorath was the ability to pull Doctor Strange through a space warp and force him onto himself (Kathulos). It is even said in the very scan you posted "I have brought you here by powers granted to me by the dread Shuma-Gorath!" Notice how in that word bubble, brought is being bolded. Everything else Kathulos did in his battle with Strange was due to his own ability. Unless you want to argue that Shuma-Gorath needed to lend Kathulos his own power in order for Kathulos to be able to strangle Strange with his vines? :D

"

False, Kathulos Shuma was the most powerful Shuma’s agent after Arioch and was represented as a bearer of Shuma Gorath’s magic. If Kathulos’s powers were granted by Shuma to bring Strange into its planet, then, indicates that Kathulos was connected to the Shuma’s energies all moment to make conscious use of large amount of power granted by his Lord.

Strange said on the panel:

“No matter what I did, I was defeated. Shuma Gorath chose well when he picked Kathulos to fight me, but I had to slay the plant from which this Enemy Spirit drew its substance. yet, at least I am alive!”

Referred to the “enemy spirit” was Shuma Gorath who drew its substance.

Kathulos was another catalyst to measure the effectiveness of Cyttorak’s magic against Shuma’s magic albeit in very finite proportions, however, the worthy bearer who obtains certain powers of Shuma’ magic was destroyed by Strange’ spells calling Crimson’s powers. Even when Kathulos called Shuma for help before its death received no response. The mystical Cyttorak’s energies called by Strange not only neutralized Kathulos’s power granted by Shuma also realized that Shuma drew its substance from Kathulos.

@Prince CortSether said:

"- So you're saying that because Shuma-Gorath and Kathulos are both able to absorb other entities it means Cyttorak's powers are greater than Shuma-Gorath's? Firstly, Shuma-Gorath and Kathulos do not absorb entities in the same way. Shuma-Gorath can feed off of any type of energy and devours entire universes (dimensions). Kathulos doesn't devour actualities. He puts single entities in a trance by mesmerizing them and drawing them into an Astral Plane where he then absorbs the entities soul/being, forcing a merging. However, during this process he is unable to negate any magic, which is how Strange was able to overcome him. Shuma-Gorath and Kathulos work entirely differently. Secondly, in no way do either of their abilities equate to Cyttorak being Shuma-Gorath's superior. Yes, Cyttorak is definitely Kathulos' superior but not because of the way in which Kathulos absorbs people. They have nothing to do with each other and are entirely unrelated.

Wrong, Shuma Gorath and Kathulos are two demons that have the common feature of absorb energy from other beings and merge with them although the way to do is totally different. Kathulos doesn’t devour worlds and is a Shuma’s servant but it can use its magic on a limited basis. Kathulos could bring Dr. Strange into its world with the magic granted by Shuma. Therefore, Kathulos is a carrier of its magic and represents a small fraction of Shuma Gorath’s magic, had the primary mission of kill Strange but failed. Dr. Strange summoned the Cyttorak’s powers to destroy Kathulos who could not be protected by Shuma before die. Indirectly, this tells me that the Cyttorak’s magic has greater effect on the "representation of Shuma’s magic" granted on Kathulos in favor of murdering Dr. Strange.

@Prince CortSether said:

" - Strange's long, drawn out confrontation with Shuma-Gorath may have been long before Strange encountered Cyttorak within the Crimson Cosmos, but that doesn't mean he was better prepared to face Cyttorak. i'll use an analogy again because you love my analogies so much lol. I could be in the middle of the ocean in my scuba gear in front of a great white shark, and with me I have a large spear gun and all the necessary tools to do the shark serious damage. I know what to do in that instance and have a great chance of getting out alive. But say I go into the ocean at a separate point in time and encounter another shark, except this time I have only my scuba gear and no weapons to defend myself. I'm completely screwed. Yeah, I know how to defend myself and battle a shark when I have all the necessary precautions and equipment, but when I have none of that underwater weaponry (let's think of these weapons as Strange's merging with Arioch) all my knowledge isn't going to get me very far. In terms of the actual comics, Strange may have been wiser due to his previous experience of battling a God in its own turf, but he had none of the necessary prep time/power boosting necessary to go hand-in-hand with his greater knowledge.
"

A completely unnecessary and pointless construction doesn’t apply at all to Cyttorak. the answer is in my new post above, read it. Second Arioch and Shuma Gorath are not Gods. Both are Demons and I’ve explained the nature of both and the limitation of their magical powers on their realms before. Honestly I'm tired to explain it and debated a thousand times and the only answer that you give me is all comics have PIS in its plot, keep on so

@Prince CortSether said:

"- This does not mean that I recognize Cyttorak as Shuma-Gorath's superior. I still hold my opinion that Shuma-Gorath is superior to Cyttorak in all areas. I already explained how the good doctor's greater wisdom at the time of his encounter with Cyttorak doesn't matter at all. Strange couldn't simply merge with anybody before or after that encounter with Arioch. I think you know it was a PIS incident yet you want to continue ignoring it for the sake of your argument. Shuma-Gorath is a God. No ifs ands or buts. You're opening a whole new can of worms in trying to argue that Shuma-Gorath is a "parasite" and not a God. Yes, Shuma-Gorath has parasitic characteristics in that he leeches energy. However, he's still a God. Shuma-Gorath refers to himself as a God, in the Fantastic Four issue with a weakened Shuma-Gorath the narrator even refers to Shuma-Gorath as "the Dark God". The Lord of Chaos is a God. That simple.

Incredible, took your inconsistent and lame response to the highest point of your entire living dissatisfaction, contradiction and your lack of arguments to debate objectively and fairly because you just lost the judgment and lost all the arguments in your favor. You do not have any proof to debate the otherwise, you could not prove that Shuma Gorath is a God because is simply is not indicated in any Marvel official sources and do not exist, you don’t have the evidence to prove it. Otherwise, all occurrences of Shuma Gorath in comics, there is the limitation of its powers and its demonic nature. Here I have nothing more to debate, everything you claim on Shuma was a complete utter fabrication of you. I suggest you consult the official Marvel sources and encyclopedias or Shuma Gorath’s Bio for you to learn well and do not spread false information publicly.

Came to a point where all the answer that you say is that the plot is PIS, I guess you say to keep the welfare of your erroneous interpretation. I don’t see PIS in the plot because is simply: Shuma Gorath and Arioch aren’t God due their demonic nature and limitation of their powers as I have explained in detail in the previous post.

I'm a little tired today but do not worry, I will continue tackled each one of your post over and over again, but I'll take the time to do, so I'll do another day. Good Night! ; )

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#58 Edited By Prince CortSether

@kenshiroo: I pointed out that Shuma-Gorath is referred to as a God in a number of panels. That's a primary source right there. You have nothing to argue that Shuma-Gorath isn't a God because more than one Marvel writer has referred to Shuma-Gorath as such.

You've lost and now you're resorting to just calling me a liar.

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#59 Edited By Warlord

Shuma is God ? 0_O ? I thought he was a demon ! Chaos Lord, or something ... But I think that Master Chaos is >>>> Chaos Lord.
And I heard some rumors that Cyttorak's avatar survived from Eternity and Oblivion, that sounds more impressive then getting out of your realm and being owned by mortals XD

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Shuma-Gorath

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#60 Edited By Shuma-Gorath

@Warlord said:

" Shuma is God ? 0_O ? I thought he was a demon ! Chaos Lord, or something ... But I think that Master Chaos is >>>> Chaos Lord. And I heard some rumors that Cyttorak's avatar survived from Eternity and Oblivion, that sounds more impressive then getting out of your realm and being owned by mortals XD "

I am one God out of many. Oblivion was never trying to destroy Cyttorak's avatar.

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#61 Edited By Warlord

@Shuma-Gorath: LMAO, Oblivion temporarily destroyed Juggernaut, but Cyttorak revived him !!!
You're not a God, you're just a Chaos Lord !!!

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Shuma-Gorath

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#62 Edited By Shuma-Gorath

@Warlord said:

" @Shuma-Gorath: LMAO, Oblivion temporarily destroyed Juggernaut, but Cyttorak revived him !!! You're not a God, you're just a Chaos Lord !!! "

Shuma-Gorath grows tired of your pathetic attempt at trolling.

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#63 Edited By Warlord

@Shuma-Gorath: Thank you, it's pleasure to know that I fail at trolling !!! Because I don't want to be the master of trolling like you, so I'd better fail at it !!
And yes, Oblivion destroyed Juggernaut temporarily, he admitted it when was talking with his step-brother, but Cyttorak revived him, that is more impressive that you being owned by mortals XD :P

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Shuma-Gorath

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#64 Edited By Shuma-Gorath

@Warlord said:

" @Shuma-Gorath: Thank you, it's pleasure to know that I fail at trolling !!! Because I don't want to be the master of trolling like you, so I'd better fail at it !! And yes, Oblivion destroyed Juggernaut temporarily, he admitted it when was talking with his step-brother, but Cyttorak revived him, that is more impressive that you being owned by mortals XD :P "

No mortal has ever bested me.

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#65 Edited By Warlord

@Shuma-Gorath: yeah-yeah, and I can freeze the Sun ><

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lordraiden

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#66 Edited By lordraiden

Shuma, all day, every day.

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czarny_samael666

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#67 Edited By czarny_samael666

@lordraiden said:

" Shuma, all day, every day. "

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#68 Edited By Warlord

I've just read about Cyttorak in a handbook, it says he can be more than billion years old 0_O

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#69 Edited By lord_oraculous016

@Warlord : that my friend is just speculation.. and nothing like that was stated in the bio of the Octessence

^_^

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#70 Edited By TheJuggernautpunch

@lord_oraculous016: But that's the bio of Octessence. The guy probably meant the page where it tells about Cyttorak, not the entire Octessence.

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karrob

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#71 Edited By karrob

Doesnt SG absorb energy?

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#72 Edited By TheJuggernautpunch

Epic image, isn't it ?

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#73 Edited By lord_oraculous016

@TheJuggernautpunch said:

" @lord_oraculous016: But that's the bio of Octessence. The guy probably meant the page where it tells about Cyttorak, not the entire Octessence. "

yeah.. but that is the only entry which includes Cyttorak.. there is probably another one.. but i'm not sure.. and that theory about him being billions of years old was never proven thus still remain a speculation.. unless, you can present a bio of him blatantly stating that he is in fact billions of years old..

@TheJuggernautpunch said:

"
Epic image, isn't it ? "

i like the image.. but sadly he loses.. not enough feats to back him up

='(

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#74 Edited By TheJuggernautpunch

@lord_oraculous016: Nah, I still think Cyttorak would win.
Here I think what he is referring to.

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#75 Edited By lord_oraculous016

@TheJuggernautpunch: thanks for the scan.. well, even there nothing states he can bet Shuma-Gorath but hey, everyone is entitled to his opinion.. so i guess we agree to disagree..

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#76 Edited By TheJuggernautpunch

@lord_oraculous016: Agreed. At least you are the one who loves mystics. Not many people here do.

13 years ago

"Colossus"

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#77 Edited By "Colossus"

will some one just post the scan of when juggernaut was in oblivions realm?

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#78 Edited By Lance Bastro

hahaha

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#79 Edited By kenshiroo

@Prince CortSether said:

" @kenshiroo: I pointed out that Shuma-Gorath is referred to as a God in a number of panels. That's a primary source right there. You have nothing to argue that Shuma-Gorath isn't a God because more than one Marvel writer has referred to Shuma-Gorath as such. You've lost and now you're resorting to just calling me a liar. "

C’mon Cort, what happened with you?

None official Marvel’s sources have declared publicly or officially that Shuma Gorath is a God and much less it have unlimited magic powers. Only briefly was named in a small corner of the comic panel in lowercase letters as a "dark god spins and falls" I guess maybe it was named as a “dark god” only in the metaphorical sense of the term because Shuma Gorath doesn’t have and never shown any unlimited magical power of a "God" inside or outside of its realm, or at least prove to be worthy of a “God”, and yes, I have argued all its actions were shown in this way: as Demon but not God. Now, I hope you don’t say to be defeated or get owned by a mortal two times is to have the power worthy of a God.

By the way, you have mentioned a quote from Englehart:

'…because Steve Englehart wrote himself into a corner and realized "Heck, he's fighting a God with infinite energy and can make himself as powerful as he wishes to be...how is he supposed to get through this?" and thus the absorption PIS was written.'

Is this true? I keep waiting to see the proof where it was written and see if you really are not a liar Cort. -_____-

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#80 Edited By kenshiroo

@TheJuggernautpunch said:

" @lord_oraculous016: Nah, I still think Cyttorak would win.
Here I think what he is referring to.
"

Very nice, mate, The Official Handbook of The Marvel Universe 2010 was the absolute answer.

Definitely the facts were supported what their creators officially have published about Cyttorak and Juggernaut and as I’ve inferred and demonstrated in fact and logic combined before. Definitely Cyttorak is immortal and does have limitless magical powers on his pocket realm again. This was explicitly demonstrated on the comics and the official Marvel Encyclopedia. Likewise, it is explicitly shown that Juggernaut, his avatar, does have virtually limitless superhuman strength and durability because he represents the most violent aspect of his God who grants him his limitless magical energies. This will dispel all doubts about both characters.

I think right now is definitely proved Juggernaut is the stronger superhuman of Marvel Universe and even I would asseverate the DC Universe as well. ^ ^

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#81 Edited By Lance Bastro

@kenshiroo said:

" @Prince CortSether said:
" @kenshiroo: I pointed out that Shuma-Gorath is referred to as a God in a number of panels. That's a primary source right there. You have nothing to argue that Shuma-Gorath isn't a God because more than one Marvel writer has referred to Shuma-Gorath as such. You've lost and now you're resorting to just calling me a liar. "
C’mon Cort, what happened with you?
"

he claims to be the same corth. but he could be the son.... wasn't cort a professor?

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#82 Edited By Prince CortSether

@Lance Bastro said:

" @kenshiroo said:
" @Prince CortSether said:
" @kenshiroo: I pointed out that Shuma-Gorath is referred to as a God in a number of panels. That's a primary source right there. You have nothing to argue that Shuma-Gorath isn't a God because more than one Marvel writer has referred to Shuma-Gorath as such. You've lost and now you're resorting to just calling me a liar. "
C’mon Cort, what happened with you?
"
he claims to be the same corth. but he could be the son.... wasn't cort a professor? "

What?

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#83 Edited By kenshiroo

@Lance Bastro said:

" @kenshiroo said:
" @Prince CortSether said:
" @kenshiroo: I pointed out that Shuma-Gorath is referred to as a God in a number of panels. That's a primary source right there. You have nothing to argue that Shuma-Gorath isn't a God because more than one Marvel writer has referred to Shuma-Gorath as such. You've lost and now you're resorting to just calling me a liar. "
C’mon Cort, what happened with you?

he claims to be the same corth. but he could be the son.... wasn't cort a professor? "

LOL, Lance your icon reflects all your worship for Cyttorak, I think you are another unconditional server of his powers, ie, a magic user, may be. : P

I am pleased to see you again in the Vine, mate. ; )

By the way, I think Cort does not like to put an "h" in the name, I’ve put it in more than one occasion due a phonetic matter, I guess. : P

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#84 Edited By TheJuggernautpunch

@kenshiroo said:

" @Lance Bastro said:
" @kenshiroo said:
" @Prince CortSether said:
" @kenshiroo: I pointed out that Shuma-Gorath is referred to as a God in a number of panels. That's a primary source right there. You have nothing to argue that Shuma-Gorath isn't a God because more than one Marvel writer has referred to Shuma-Gorath as such. You've lost and now you're resorting to just calling me a liar. "
C’mon Cort, what happened with you?

he claims to be the same corth. but he could be the son.... wasn't cort a professor? "
LOL, Lance your icon reflects all your worship for Cyttorak, I think you are another unconditional server of his powers, ie, a magic user, may be. : P
I am pleased to see you again in the Vine, mate. ; )
By the way, I think Cort does not like to put an "h" in the name, I’ve put it in more than one occasion due a phonetic matter, I guess. : P
"

LOL, I think Lance has a ruby under his pillow and he hides that secret from everyone :D

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#85 Edited By kenshiroo

@TheJuggernautpunch said:

" @kenshiroo said:
" @Lance Bastro said:
" @kenshiroo said:
" @Prince CortSether said:
" @kenshiroo: I pointed out that Shuma-Gorath is referred to as a God in a number of panels. That's a primary source right there. You have nothing to argue that Shuma-Gorath isn't a God because more than one Marvel writer has referred to Shuma-Gorath as such. You've lost and now you're resorting to just calling me a liar. "
C’mon Cort, what happened with you?

he claims to be the same corth. but he could be the son.... wasn't cort a professor? "
LOL, Lance your icon reflects all your worship for Cyttorak, I think you are another unconditional server of his powers, ie, a magic user, may be. : P
I am pleased to see you again in the Vine, mate. ; )
By the way, I think Cort does not like to put an "h" in the name, I’ve put it in more than one occasion due a phonetic matter, I guess. : P
"
LOL, I think Lance has a ruby under his pillow and he hides that secret from everyone :D "

LMAO =D

13 years ago

Cypher's Gambit

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#86 Edited By Cypher's Gambit

If Cyttorak has unlimited power, but Shuma gets more powerful absorbing powers then should that count this battle as a tie?

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#87 Edited By fallenangel5991

@Danilo018 said:

" The Vishanti don't dare to fight Cyttorak, but on the other hand they are arch-nemesis with Shuma Gorath and dare to fight him. So wouldn't by that logic than be Cyttorak > Shuma Gorath. Also Dr. Strange on one occassion defeated Shuma Gorath by invoking power of Cyttorak and some other deity(which name I don't remember). It was just a portion of Cyttorak's power, but it was enough to secure the banishment of Shuma Gorath from our dimension. So I go with Cyttorak here. "

@Danilo018:
So much fail in one post, lol.

Vishanti never fought Cyttorak, because Cyttorak never goes out of the Crimson Cosmos, where he is absolute.
Shuma, on the otherhand, was on EARTH, and OUT of his own dimension when he fought the Vishanti, and STILL won.

Way to twist up the facts.

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#88 Edited By fallenangel5991

Both are omnipotent in their own respective realms.

BUT, if the battle takes place in a neutral realm, I go with Shuma. Why? Shuma has much more feats while outside of his own realm.

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#89 Edited By Prince CortSether

@Cypher's Gambit said:

" If Cyttorak has unlimited power, but Shuma gets more powerful absorbing powers then should that count this battle as a tie? "

Kenshiro is simply twisting facts to suit Cyttorak winning. Shuma-Gorath is a God and like any other God it is omnipotent within its pocket dimension. Based on feats, Shuma-Gorath wins.

13 years ago

RiseofApocalypse

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#90 Edited By RiseofApocalypse

Gorath wins.

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#91 Edited By TheJuggernautpunch

@fallenangel5991: We don't know whether Shuma won against them or not. We only know that they have fought, from the words of Vishanti.
And when they were fighting for Strange, that wasn't in CC.

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Perfect Cell

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#92 Edited By Perfect Cell

@CortSether said:

" Some weird goings on in the universe has made the entire universe warped, merging dimensions and causing chaos. The crimson cosmos finds itself merged with the chaos dimension that Shuma-Gorath resides in. Cyttorak doesn't like this presence in his cosmos, and Shuma-Gorath views Cyttorak as yet another entity to feed off of. A battle for supremacy ensues between the two. Because of the merging of home dimensions, both have their full power at their disposal. It's all out, full-power, no holds barred.

Who wins?

Let's use as much comic book "logic" as possible.
"

It's a tie. If Shuma begins to devour the Crimson Universe, Cyttorak would convert the Chaos dimension into the Crimson Universe. And vice versa... They can't fight faced to face either because one god is unlimited, while the other keeps on feeding from the unlimited source. There's no win/lose. It's a ring around the rosey game.

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#93 Edited By fallenangel5991

@TheJuggernautpunch said:

" @fallenangel5991: We don't know whether Shuma won against them or not. We only know that they have fought, from the words of Vishanti. And when they were fighting for Strange, that wasn't in CC. "

If the Vishanti won against Shuma, then Shuma would not have continued ruling Earth's dimension like he did, so it only makes sense that the Vishanti failed to defeat Shuma.

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#94 Edited By lord_oraculous016

weren't the Old Ones (Shuma-Gorath and others) banished by the Elder Gods (Oshtur and others)?

also Hoggoth is also one of the Great Old Ones.. so he could be possibly as powerful as Shuma-Gorath? its a possibility..

Shuma-Gorath fought the Vishanti and it ended in a stalemate.. with no party losing.. the Vishanti failed to destroy Shuma-Gorath and free Earth while Shuma-Gorath also wasn't capable of destroying the Vishanti.. which makes them equal..

the second time Shuma-Gorath threatened Earth, chose not to interfere.. saying that they have greater responsibilities now and earth must be saved by one of its own..

i personally think Shuma-Gorath = Vishanti.. and Vishnati >>>> Cyttorak.. well, that is my opinion at the very least..

13 years ago

lordraiden

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#95 Edited By lordraiden

imo, Cyttorak is no where close to Shuma in power and stature.

13 years ago

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#96 Edited By Lance Bastro

@lord_oraculous016 said:

" weren't the Old Ones (Shuma-Gorath and others) banished by the Elder Gods (Oshtur and others)? also Hoggoth is also one of the Great Old Ones.. so he could be possibly as powerful as Shuma-Gorath? its a possibility.. Shuma-Gorath fought the Vishanti and it ended in a stalemate.. with no party losing.. the Vishanti failed to destroy Shuma-Gorath and free Earth while Shuma-Gorath also wasn't capable of destroying the Vishanti.. which makes them equal.. the second time Shuma-Gorath threatened Earth, chose not to interfere.. saying that they have greater responsibilities now and earth must be saved by one of its own.. i personally think Shuma-Gorath = Vishanti.. and Vishnati >>>> Cyttorak.. well, that is my opinion at the very least.. "

i'm pretty sure that zom is overwhelmingly more powerful than all three of the vishianti combined. and it invokes the power of cyttorak. there are elders, and there are great ones, but there are also great grand elders too. cyttorak could be genesis, who knows.

13 years ago

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#97 Edited By lord_oraculous016

@Lance Bastro: Elder Gods are the first sentient life to be born from the Earth making them well over billions of years old.. and that is a fact.. unlike unproven speculations given to Cyttorak.. Dormammu and Mephisto themselves invokes Chthon's (an Elder god) unholy might..

i'm pretty sure that zom is overwhelmingly more powerful than all three of the vishianti combined. and it invokes the power of cyttorak. there are elders, and there are great ones, but there are also great grand elders too. cyttorak could be genesis, who knows. "

all pure speculation.. the Vishanti themselves are proven to be Multiversal entities which at the very least capable of destroying an entire Universe.. Cyttorak has never displayed such feat.. Doctor Strange cannot even attempt to banish Agamotto (an Elder Spawn) even when he had already invoked the combined might of Dormammu, Cytorrak, Watoomb, Raggadorr, Denak, the Seraphim, the Faltine, Ikonn and Valtorr..

it was even revealed that the very fabric of magic is credited to the four remaining Elder Gods (Gaea, Set, Chthon and Oshtur) as it was their powers that were needed to heal the fabric of magic after the War of the Seven Spheres..

the Vishanti is comprised of Omnipotent Oshtur (an Elder Goddess), Hoary Hoggoth (a Great One One) and All-seeing Agamotto (an Elder Spawn).. each one is unimaginably powerful in their own right.. and their combined might is said to be far greater than that of Galactus himself..

13 years ago

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#98 Edited By Lance Bastro

@lord_oraculous016 said:

" @Lance Bastro: Elder Gods are the first sentient life to be born from the Earth making them well over billions of years old.. and that is a fact.. unlike unproven speculations given to Cyttorak.. Dormammu and Mephisto themselves invokes Chthon's (an Elder god) unholy might..

      i'm pretty sure that zom is overwhelmingly more powerful than all three of the vishianti combined. and it invokes the power of cyttorak. there are elders, and there are great ones, but there are also great grand elders too. cyttorak could be genesis, who knows. "
all pure speculation.. the Vishanti themselves are proven to be Multiversal entities which at the very least capable of destroying an entire Universe.. Cyttorak has never displayed such feat.. Doctor Strange cannot even attempt to banish Agamotto (an Elder Spawn) even when he had already invoked the combined might of Dormammu, Cytorrak, Watoomb, Raggadorr, Denak, the Seraphim, the Faltine, Ikonn and Valtorr..  it was even revealed that the very fabric of magic is credited to the four remaining Elder Gods (Gaea, Set, Chthon and Oshtur) as it was their powers that were needed to heal the fabric of magic after the War of the Seven Spheres..  the Vishanti is comprised of Omnipotent Oshtur (an Elder Goddess), Hoary Hoggoth (a Great One One) and All-seeing Agamotto (an Elder Spawn).. each one is unimaginably powerful in their own right.. and their combined might is said to be far greater than that of Galactus himself.. "

you DO realize that it was stated by the vishanti themselves that they are "afraid to anger cyttorak", right?
that they were in fear that cyttorak could over power them even in their own dimension. that's why the elder gods, vishianti plus the celestrial had to seal him from stepping out of the crimson cosmos.
Strange III#44

even the trion elder dimensional gods want to use cyttoraks power to destroy dimensions. who else?
d'spypre wants to invoke cyttorak's power to recreate the 616 universe.

what's next?

13 years ago

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#99 Edited By fallenangel5991

@lord_oraculous016 said:

"weren't the Old Ones (Shuma-Gorath and others) banished by the Elder Gods (Oshtur and others)?

Highly doubt it.

13 years ago