Considering Dooku's experience in fighting 2v1s, he can put up a fight. But he isn't winning this. The brothers win at least from a solid majority to every time.
...Eh, not sure how we can determine what Lucas exactly ''implies'' in here, he is very simple and clear with ''he was like Maul or Dooku'' , ''he wasn't strong as the Emperor'' ... You can't determine the level or league difference from here.
''From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku.''
-George Lucas
And this is TPM Maul by the way. Lucas said this in 2005.
Lucas's statement of Vader being like Dooku or Maul doesn't mean all three of those guys are equals if that's what you're trying to suggest.
They are close enough, which is more than enough. Especially while the quote is for TPM Maul. Lucas wouldn't say anything like that if they were not close to each other.
What we've seen from Savage Opress and Quinlan Vos duels of Dooku, Maul has both physical strength and unpredictability advantages to overcome Dooku's classic fencing, elegant style.
Maul's fighting style is not reliant on physical strength, I've never seen any text that shows Maul relying on his physical strength.
Maul simply destroyed Mighella's Force imbued sword with a powerful kinetic assault. Similar to what Exar Kun did with Vodo-Siosk Baas' Force staff.
Juyo also depends on bold and kinetic movements, where you can redirect your physical strength properly and masterfully, not to mention Maul is a hybrid fighter, who uses H2H combat skills in the middle of the saber duel, which is using both physical speed and strength.
He has also overpowered Qui-Gon Jinn, who is already strong enough, and also rage amped TPM Kenobi and then a post-AotC Kenobi who was using furious assaults on him in Turtle Tanker. Also even against someone physically powerful as Vader, his TPM Clone was able to match and even land a strength blows on him.
And being more sophisticate, calculate and deadlier doesn't make him ''factually'' superior anyway. He is just better than TPM Maul in these areas.
It still shows something.
It just shows Dooku is more sophistic and deadly than pre-prime TPM Maul, (and even that doesn't say Dooku is more powerful) which I could agree. If you don't have anything better, then I don't see how you could claim ''factually superior'' him and how if it's not even debatable for you.
That's TPM Maul. The release date of the panel-to-panel volume 1 is 2004. It's before Maul's TCW upgrade. I wasn't talking about a pre-prime Maul, I was talking about prime Maul, who has become more powerful in every category.
I don't have anything for TCW Maul.
Well, I was talking about the prime Maul, I could agree with the same idea about TPM Maul being inferior, but even that Maul could take a couple of rounds against Dooku due to his special advantages (which is physical strength and unpredictability) over Dooku.
That guy accused me of having "arrogant bias" which is hilarious because I'm a Maul supporter, he's not trust worthy.
You're not bias, but if you really think Dooku is obviously superior to Maul, and also if you think Maul can't match and defeat Dooku in a one-on-one duel, then you might support Dooku followers in this topic. This is a near-stomp and mismatch because Maul alone can defeat Dooku and their one-on-one duel is debatable.
Brothers take this 9/10. And I'm saying this as the Count fan. (the 1/10 for Dooku is for CIS and PIS situation). But Dooku can escape using his superior force powers many times.
and also rage amped TPM Kenobi and then a post-AotC Kenobi who was using furious assaults on him in Turtle Tanker.
Who had been k'od twice and been extensively beaten before hand. Furthermore after getting enraged. Kenobi was initially driving Maul back:
Well, I was talking about the prime Maul, I could agree with the same idea about TPM Maul being inferior, but even that Maul could take a couple of rounds against Dooku due to his special advantages (which is physical strength and unpredictability) over Dooku.
Grevious is more unpredictable, faster, and stronger, Dooku was fine with him.
This is a near-stomp and mismatch because Maul alone can defeat Dooku and their one-on-one duel is debatable.
No it isn't. Dooku's the superior duelist and force user, both by significant margins. The gap gets significantly larger between oppress and dooku,
There are little to no scenarios in which Dooku can win this fight.
Savage wouldn't be taken out definitely by Lightning, Maul has tanked Lightning, and Dooku wouldn't be able to hold out Savage's assault (individually), nor Maul's, and their combined assault would hammer bad THROUGH Dooku's Makashi, that is vulnerable against power strikes. One of the main reasons Dooku lost to ROTS Anakin, a somewhat equally skilled opponent, was through strength. Maul is stronger then Anakin, and Savage is too. and their combined assault would be too much.
Also, Maul can proficiently deflect Lightning at this point, and prime Savage could deflect weaker assaults of Lightning.
In regards to TK itself (Push, Choke, Pull) Savage is not getting ragdolled by Dooku. Dooku has owned Ventress, owned Kenobi, he's levitated himself, he's collapsed that bit of the Geonosis cave, he's crushed that giant pillar standing over Kenobi and Anakin, he's collapsed part of the Invisible Hand's bridge. Savage has thrown a Jedi cruiser (much bigger then the X-wing Yoda lifted) down a cliff, ragdolled Dooku and Ventress, thrown back Ani, Obi, and twelve battle droids while having tanked ten blaster bolts to the chest, shattered a Mandalorian prison cell, that is made of Mandalorian glass. Mandalorian materials have been stated to tank blaster bolts and even lightsabers to an extent.
Maul also has quite his feats (mostly in TCW.) Before TCW, he was kinda average for a Sith Lord. In TCW, he pulled down a Jedi cruiser (similar to the one Savage did), but Maul had been shot in the leg (it was prosthetic, but it was sustained by Nightsister Magic and the Magic had faded away) and he still did it with much less strain then Savage. He also ragdolled Kenobi around (the second time even collapsing a bit of a cave), he Force Pushed and Gripped Sidious in a non-canonical scene of the duel (although this is useless I would like to note the TCW screenwriters came up with and even started with the idea.) Maul has also killed a Jedi with Lightsaber Throw.
Physically, it's useless to debate, but I will do so anyway, just for the sake of it. Maul has kicked through torsos, made a giant creature (350-400 lbs) bleed, broke its neck, managed to land a hit on Sidious, nearly killed Obi-Wan by sending him flying down lots of floors (Obi-Wan took centuries to get there in some game, comic or novel) although in the movie it was cut short. Maul also got hit by Jinn, fell down floors, and hit Jinn, making him stagger backwards one second afterwards. Maul has killed/grievously wounded a Jedi by kicking him in the chest with his first cybernetic legs. Note the Jedi, rage amped, was strangling Maul. Savage has thrashed Anakin and Obi-Wan around, sent Ventress and Dooku flying just by purely lightsaber strikes (all they did was block and be thrown around.)
Also, forgot two TK feats for Savage. He choked and killed Katuunko while having Anakin and Kenobi clinging on to his back, and he has decapitated five people with Lightsaber Throw.
Physically, Dooku has kicked Anakin back while choking Kenobi, but that's it, and he's 83, while bros are in their mid-30s (physical prime.) Team wins.
My opinions have somewhat changed over the weeks. Dooku is a notch above the league of Obi Wan and Maul as Tk users, so even if he doesn't outright ragdoll Maul, it's not like Maul can stand up to him for a meaningful length of time either.
We need to change the versions for this to be fair. As far as I know, these are TCW versions, which make this a lopsided match. My thread is much closer.
Team mid difficulty. The worst that can happen to the team is Dooku killing Savage at some time throughout the fight which would result in an extremely rage amped Maul who's likely going to be in a similar fit of rage as he was in the final moments in his fight with Palpatine on Mandalore because Maul's going to be fighting a guy who has "stolen his spot", and that's where Maul is going to kill Dooku.
What is this? Prime Maul (which is SoD, baseless fanboyism notwithstanding) at least three rounds against Dooku and gives him super hell, Pre-Prime Savage is a confirmed threat to Dooku. Dooku gets awfully trounced. Mismatch. This stupid, baseless lowballing needs to stop immediately.
Dooku vs TPM Maul/S3 Savage is a better fight. Heck, even there the bros should take a slight majority. The only fight Dooku wins is Dooku vs Rebels Maul/S3 Savage
What exactly did it say? He did beat Ventress but that's when he separated them. He litterally ran from them. He was losing so he ran, only Ventress followed, and when she confronted him he said "you are no match without your monster" which is him admitting he could of lost against both at once. And Dooku could of beat them, but that was a pre prime Savage, and Maul>Ventress.
You can't cheat this and say it meant them individually. Check the grammer. Single sentence, the subject is placed as a combined attack and that he still far surpassed them combined.
I'd take this over the biography quote as it address the battle directly as a whole.
Which when you think about, Dooku was never really in danger. Really the only knock he got was Savage, (which is basically WIS when you think about everything else he does). He danced around Ventress even unarmed, immediately blasted Oppress away before he could even do anything while unarmed. And I think it's safe to say had it not been for the brutes tantrum the apprentices had basically already lost.
So IMO yes. He does "far surpass" both of them even combined. In sabers and in force.
@greysentinel365: He does far surpass them in his abilities in the force. That doesn't mean he was winning. And if he was winning why would he run? And are you really trying to use a quote from the star wars website to override what actually happened and was said in the episode, not that the line contradicts anything.
And yes, without the tantrum he would of beat them, but that was a pre prime Savage, and Maul already showed he could clown a stronger version of Savage. Maul in his prime is pretty close to Dooku, Savage would just be the tipping point, especially if he gets mad.
He does far surpass them in his abilities in the force. That doesn't mean he was winning. And if he was winning why would he run?
Probably because he sensed Anakin and Obi-Wan coming. And in sabers he was easily dealing with Ventress even unarmed while dodging Savage simultaneously.
And are you really trying to use a quote from the star wars website to override what actually happened and was said in the episode, not that the line contradicts anything.
What line? The "you are no match for me" when Asajj fought Dooku solo? Lol.
1. Dooku gloating
2. They weren't a match for him. Ventress was consistently dealt with easily. Savage got one hit in that he has never replicated even after training and when fighting lesser characters and if Dooku can get past Skywalker with ease he can get past Savage if need be.
And yes, without the tantrum he would of beat them,
Almost as if he far surpassed them
but that was a pre prime Savage,
Please elaborate on the degree Savage improved if any. Shadow Conspiracy implies Adi>Savage in skill and he has never displayed any feats of power above AotC Anakin.
and Maul already showed he could clown a stronger version of Savage.
Through superior leverage via his legs. Not to mention Maul's training him letting him pre-empt his move and Maul already being a master of the weapon Savage is using, of which he has only been credited having crude mastery of (Jedi Padawans must fully master 1 style) which doesn't hold a candle in the higher ups.
Maul in his prime is pretty close to Dooku,
Yeah, I'm not seeing that. But you're free to your opinion.
@kbroskywalker: The version of Maul isn't specified. And I don't think TCW Maul is that far behind Dooku. He definitely wouldn't win by himself, but with Savage I'm pretty sure they would have the advantage.
Probably because he sensed Anakin and Obi-Wan coming. And in sabers he was easily dealing with Ventress even unarmed while dodging Savage simultaneously.
He ran right when he started to feel pressured by Savage.
What line? The "you are no match for me" when Asajj fought Dooku solo? Lol.
1. Dooku gloating
2. They weren't a match for him. Ventress was consistently dealt with easily. Savage got one hit in that he has never replicated even after training and when fighting lesser characters and if Dooku can get past Skywalker with ease he can get past Savage if need be.
Right when Savage became amped he did become a match. Before that you are right.
Almost as if he far surpassed them
Going off how Maul beat Savage just as easy if not easier than Dooku did, Maul should also far surpass them.
Please elaborate on the degree Savage improved if any.
He fought much more competently against Sidious than he did against Dooku. Not to mention Dooku literally said Savage was growing stronger everyday and considered him a threat.
Shadow Conspiracy implies Adi>Savage in skill and he has never displayed any feats of power above AotC Anakin.
So knocking CW Anakin and CW Obi-wan back with the force at the same time isn't better than what AotC Anakin can do? Or Knocking Dooku back? Or tanking force lightning for way longer than AotC Anakin could?
Through superior leverage via his legs. Not to mention Maul's training him letting him pre-empt his move and Maul already being a master of the weapon Savage is using, of which he has only been credited having crude mastery of (Jedi Padawans must fully master 1 style) which doesn't hold a candle in the higher ups.
That is completely ignoring Author's intent. You really think he wouldn't of won that easily if he had different legs? He would of just won in a different way. Savage even said "you've grown so powerful", not "your legs are so powerful". Also Maul grabbed Savage's arm and could of stabbed him with his lightsaber way before he used his legs.
Yeah, I'm not seeing that. But you're free to your opinion.
Considering Maul (in ep 1) and Dooku are both said to be level 8 in lightsaber cobmat, I don't see why a even stronger version of Maul would at least be close to Dooku. Dooku would most likely win a 1v1 though.
Fought with Qui-gon (who Dooku held in high regard) and Obi-wan at the same time and looked to even hold the advantage, overpowered CW Kenobi with the force, and fought with Sidious for about as long as Dooku fought with Yoda. Dooku has more skill and knowledge, Maul has more tenacity and endurance.
Well spotted. Oppress was far below and got stomped by an inferior to Dooku's own inferior(Kenobi) in Maul. Maul needs better help.
If Savage gets dealt with instantly, then ya Dooku has a good chance of winning, but that didn't happen while fighting Ventress, so I think Savage will be able to stay alive long enough to be of some use. And Savage only got his arm taken off by Kenobi because Kenobi kept attacking his knee over and over again. I'm not sure if that's something Dooku would do, also with his old age I'm not sure he is someone who could repeatedly kick someone as tough as Savage over and over again without getting tired.
He ran right when he started to feel pressured by Savage.
Doubt it. Could still easily remove him with lightning, TK or just evade and cut him down.
Going off how Maul beat Savage just as easy if not easier than Dooku did, Maul should also far surpass them.
I would actually say Maul could beat this duo honestly. With a lot more difficulty sure but he could likely do it.
He fought much more competently against Sidious than he did against Dooku. Not to mention Dooku literally said Savage was growing stronger everyday and considered him a threat.
Against a screwing around Sidious sure. By what degree was he growing? Not by much I would think. Considering the level he is at later on. Struggling with Adi and only stalemating Ventress with circumstance to aid him
So knocking CW Anakin and CW Obi-wan back with the force at the same time isn't better than what AotC Anakin can do? Or Knocking Dooku back? Or tanking force lightning for way longer than AotC Anakin could?
All of which was when he was rage amped to hell and back. And that he has never replicated under his own power even after training.
Savage is a physical beast sure. But that's about all he has.
Also, Savage has never tanked lighting. Just like Maul has never tanked lightning. Everytime he's been struck by it he's gone down.
That is completely ignoring Author's intent. You really think he wouldn't of won that easily if he had different legs? He would of just won in a different way. Savage even said "you've grown so powerful", not "your legs are so powerful". Also Maul grabbed Savage's arm and could of stabbed him with his lightsaber way before he used his legs.
No, I don't think he would of won that easily without those legs. Of course he would have won a different way. But not that quickly.
Savage saying "you're so powerful" isn't exactly high praise considering his lack of knowledge. Not to mention how vague said praise is.
Yes, Maul grabbed his arm, then he tensed it by extending to full height. An option not available to him once he loses the magic legs.
Considering Maul (in ep 1) and Dooku are both said to be level 8 in lightsaber cobmat, I don't see why a even stronger version of Maul would at least be close to Dooku. Dooku would most likely win a 1v1 though.
Gillard has stated there's a massive difference in the levels and likened them to a Richter scale. So there would be a rough difference of 32x between the levels.
So Maul could be twice as powerful as he was and still not be close. He could be 5-10 times more powerful and still not be close.
Fought with Qui-gon (who Dooku held in high regard) and Obi-wan at the same time and looked to even hold the advantage
Dooku fought and looked to have an advantage vs a far better duo in season 6 kenobi and anakin
overpowered CW Kenobi with the force
When Kenobi had his defenses down or maul was amped. You're also forgetting about in sc when Kenobi tk'd both maul and oppress simultaneously. Regardless it doesn't compare to Dooku outright ragdolling ROTS Kenobi. Clone Wars:Stealth shows Kneobi can grow much more powerful over the course of a couple of months and TCW happens to be almost a year away from ROTS with Kneobi having numerous emotional confrontations to grow from. Simply put, ROTS Kenobi is far above his TCW counterpart and Dooku's tk showings vs Kneobi are much much better.
Additionally ROTS Kenobi than Maul himself does(wrecking an entire formation of 500 meter megailiths, deflecting and matching attacks from a hindered Knightfall Anakin). Dooku's ability to ragdoll ROTS Kenobi should put him well above Maul
and fought with Sidious for about as long as Dooku fought with Yoda
Actually Maul fought for a shorter period of time and did so while rage amped. While Dooku was never decisively beaten and could have fought yoda for longer, maul flat out lost. Additionally Shadow Conspiracy implies Sids wasn't even fighting at full speed. Dooku's showing is much better.
Additionally, while Maul was effortlessly ragdolled by a toying sidious, dooku was factually beyond Yoda's ability to ragdoll.
If Savage gets dealt with instantly, then ya Dooku has a good chance of winning, but that didn't happen while fighting Ventress, so I think Savage will be able to stay alive long enough to be of some use.
Dooku spent a significant amount of that fight unarmed, otherwise he was handling Oppress just fine.
. And Savage only got his arm taken off by Kenobi because Kenobi kept attacking his knee over and over again. I'm not sure if that's something Dooku would do, also with his old age I'm not sure he is someone who could repeatedly kick someone as tough as Savage over and over again without getting tired.
Kenobi kept landing physical hits on him because Oppress was utterly outclassed as a swordsman and kept giving Kenobi openings to land physical strikes by him. Dooku's more skilled and can find other ways to exploit the massive skill gap between him and oppress. And ulinke TCW Kneobi, Dooku, being far more powerful can likely ragdoll the crap out of oppress making this a 1 v 1.
Also
Savage over and over again without getting tired.
I should mention the ROTS script has dooku and Kenobi tiring at the same rate.In other words, dooku's stamina is = to ROTS Kenobi's
Doubt it. Could still easily remove him with lightning, TK or just evade and cut him down.
That's exactly what he did but he ran because all it did was take Savage out for a few seconds and Ventress blocked it.
All of which was when he was rage amped to hell and back.
Dooku hit him multiple times with lightning before he was amped.
Also, Savage has never tanked lighting. Just like Maul has never tanked lightning. Everytime he's been struck by it he's gone down.
I meant he got hit by it and was able to recover right away. AotC Anakin was knocked out for about a minute.
No, I don't think he would of won that easily without those legs. Of course he would have won a different way. But not that quickly.
Savage saying "you're so powerful" isn't exactly high praise considering his lack of knowledge. Not to mention how vague said praise is.
Yes, Maul grabbed his arm, then he tensed it by extending to full height. An option not available to him once he loses the magic legs.
Maul seemed to just be playing with him. If he could go in and grab Savage that easily I don/t see why he couldn't of just went in and sliced him down instead.
Gillard has stated there's a massive difference in the levels and likened them to a Richter scale. So there would be a rough difference of 32x between the levels.
So Maul could be twice as powerful as he was and still not be close. He could be 5-10 times more powerful and still not be close.
When did he say there could be a difference of 32x? Or do you mean 32x from level 1 to 9? A difference of 5-10x seems a bit much for one level. Obi-wan, who was an 8, was able to fight against Anakin who was a 9. Mace, who was a 8 bordering 9 was able to fight Sidious who was a 9. Dooku who was an 8 fought Yoda who was a 9. Qui-gon (likely a 7) and ep 1 Obi-wan (a 6 or 7) were able to fight Maul even by themselves who was an 8. And Maul got even stronger since then. So just going off of scaling Maul should at least be close in saber combat. Dooku hasn't really shown anything far above Maul's means.
Dooku fought and looked to have an advantage vs a far better duo in season 6 kenobi and anakin
True, but you could tell he was being pressured and on the run. Maul was also falling back but he seemed more in control. And earlier in the show Anakin already almost beat Dooku in a 1v1.
When Kenobi had his defenses down or maul was amped. You're also forgetting about in sc when Kenobi tk'd both maul and oppress simultaneously. Regardless it doesn't compare to Dooku outright ragdolling ROTS Kenobi.
Kenobi's defenses were no more down then they were when Dooku ragdolled him. He probably just didn't expect that force attack from Dooku which is why he got taken out. It was pretty much PIS so Anakin can 1v1 him but obviously Kenobi couldn't die. Obi-wan later matched knightfall Anakin's force push, and even if he wasn't at his peak he should of still been stronger or at least comparable to Dooku.
And I do agree Dooku is stronger in the force than CW Maul, but only by a factor of maybe 10%.
Actually Maul fought for a shorter period of time and did so while rage amped. While Dooku was never decisively beaten and could have fought yoda for longer, maul flat out lost. Additionally Shadow Conspiracy implies Sids wasn't even fighting at full speed. Dooku's showing is much better.
Maybe it was a little shorter, but he did land a hit on Sidious.
Additionally, while Maul was effortlessly ragdolled by a toying sidious, dooku was factually beyond Yoda's ability to ragdoll.
Is this stated? I thought Jedi don't use the force for aggressive attacks.
Dooku spent a significant amount of that fight unarmed, otherwise he was handling Oppress just fine.
Oppress is the one who unarmed him though. And I agree Oppress would never have a chance of winning, with Maul it's a different story. I definitely don't see Dooku lasting as long as the brothers against Sidious.
Kenobi kept landing physical hits on him because Oppress was utterly outclassed as a swordsman and kept giving Kenobi openings to land physical strikes by him. Dooku's more skilled and can find other ways to exploit the massive skill gap between him and oppress. And ulinke TCW Kneobi, Dooku, being far more powerful can likely ragdoll the crap out of oppress making this a 1 v 1.
Ya I could see him constantly ragdolling Savage, but the thing about Savage is he will keep getting back up because of his insane durability. If Dooku had unlimited stamina his chances of winning would be high, but I don't think he could last against these two powerhouses. He may be winning at first but he will be worn down.
I should mention the ROTS script has dooku and Kenobi tiring at the same rate.In other words, dooku's stamina is = to ROTS Kenobi's
I find that hard to believe. He showed signs of fatigue in AotC after fighting two much weaker opponents. And I really don't see him fighitng against someoen slightly stronger than him for 5 minutes straight like Kenobi did.
Ngl, this thread is a pretty good example of the evolution of Star Wars debating and how quickly some viewpoints become mere history. Some viewpoints haven't changed at all, but the reasoning for those viewpoints still evolve to an extent.
It doesn't matter whether Dooku is vastly more powerful than Savage or Ventress individually, against their combined efforts he factually held a slight edge.
Also, SOD Maul is in his prime and much better than Maul's weakest iteration, Rebels Maul. This quote twisting crap is getting annoying.
It doesn't matter whether Dooku is vastly more powerful than Savage or Ventress individually, against their combined efforts he factually held a slight edge.
Sorry for the siderant, but this is what bugs me about the ROTS 2v1, as in really freakin annoys me.
Dooku's vastly more powerful than Savage and Ventress individually... yet he only held a slight edge over them. Anakin is more powerful than Dooku, yet Dooku was able to dismiss Obi-Wan while fighting Anakin. It's such a freakin contradiction that obscures the importance of numbers when facing Dooku, so it makes that really obscure. If Dooku can barely handle Ventress and Savage how can he be justified handling Maul and Savage, but at the same time if he can remove Obi-Wan from a fight while facing a superior opponent how can he be justified failing to remove Savage when he's facing an inferior opponent?
Not to mention it completely undermines the idea of Anakin and Obi-Wan as a duo in a 2v1, which they were already a terrible team in dueling prior to the outer rim seiges, but in LOE and ROTS it places such an emphasis on how they're the perfect duo and unstoppable team, yet Obi-Wan got removed from the fight while the duo was facing an inferior opponent to Anakin. This suggests that them taking on anyone in a 2v1 as a duo is completely pointless because anyone Anakin level or above can just discard Obi-Wan as Dooku did, and anyone beneath Anakin level can be taken by Anakin without Obi-Wan's help.
Though Anakin and Obi-Wan have quite bad synergy because Obi is a defensive fighter, and when he's fighting with Anakin he has to attack. And Kenobi's offensive form (Ataru) is horrible for dealing with Dooku. That's why I think Dooku fared so well against the duo in ROTS.
Still, he didn't win that fight, and if he somehow manages to kill Savage here, which will trigger the Rage Amped Maul that fought Sidious for a brief period of time, and that Maul should take Dooku out.
@emperordmb: In all fairness, Anakin and Obi-Wan were toying with Dooku when Dooku was actually holding his own against them in the ROTS Novel. I think this is also reinforced by the ROTS visual dictionary.
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