@the_man_with_questions: I posted because I know some people are gonna tagg me (either the voters or whatever) so I decided just to say don't tagg me but ok, tagg me if you want.
Does this character really need an introduction? It's a bird! It's a plane! It's Superman!
Showings
Strength: Clark overpowers Doomsday. What makes this so impressive is the fact that Doomsday completely demolished Wonder Woman and Steel, and was releasing a toxin/spores (don't really remember) that were basically killing organic life forms (like I said, I don't really remember).
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Striking Power/Durability: Black Racer deflects a physical strike from Superman. The power behind this strike is so immense that it cracks a large portion of the moon.
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Speed: Superman blocks a laser about to hit Toymaster, analyzes alien tech, x-rays an alien woman, takes notice of Batman's dead body, and blitzes Mongol all within a microsecond.
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That's it for now. I'll explain some of Superman's other abilities later on in the battle, and go into why he beats the duo. Your move guys!
Don't think any of us need intros, and this battle will be won via debating anyways. Also, not sure which versions I'm allowed, so I'm keeping it at Savage and below.
Abilities:
Super Stats
Speed, Durability, Strength, etc.
Healing Factor
Gamma Radiation
Now, usually I don't post feats in the intro but since we're not doing intros per se, I'm going to give off some showings. C/P from another CaV of mine.
In Hulk Smash Avengers #4, Joe Fixit Hulk was able to wrestle with and punch out Wonder Man, a solid class 90-100+. This was Hulk at one of his weakest forms, imagine Savage doing that. WM would've been KO'd for a while longer. Moving on to a little durability section.
Energy: Silver Surfer #125, in which he can take blasts from the Silver Surfer.
Now, speed isn't Hulk's shining place (hence nullifying speedblitzing), but with high-tiers like the Hulk, it isn't really needed. However, for the sake of a feat, take Amazing Spider-Man #120, where Hulk manages to catch the wall-crawler.
Again, this is edited and C/P'd from another CaV of mine in which I barely knew my opponent so this isn't really the best I can do. Another thing I see a lot in openers is Hulk's Post-Core Breach amp, which I believe in truly unnecessary but I'm going to add just to make this longer.
One thing I forgot to mention is that I can also use feats from Jason Aaron's Incredible Hulk run (and I could use other feats from Hulk's appearances Post-Fear Itself Event). I just want to let you know that Indestructible Hulk still has an upgrade from Core Breach on Planet Sakaar and is now much stronger and explained in World War Hulk: Gamma Files in 2009.
This was explained again in Marvel Fact Files #5 from 2014 where it was stated that his powers became much greater now after the Core Breach. However it also stated that Hulk has strengh level greater than all of Earth's Heroes. So now Hulk is much stronger than all heroes on Earth.
Hulk is now one strong beast, even compare to his Pre-Core Breach Version.
@krleavenger hope you don't mind me borrowing that
Conclusion
Just gonna wait for ASD to come in and do his intro, then we can actually debate.
Ok so since we seem to be dispensing of the pleasantries and going straight into the heart of this debate I'll begin by showing some feats for Thor.
Strength
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As a teenage without Mjolnir Thor hits an opponent to another galaxy
Strength/ Durability
He and Gorr were able to not only destroy the planet they were on but also the moon orbiting it with the shockwaves of their punches.
Speed
A common misconception is that Thor is slow. This isn't really the case.
To tease for what's to come here is Thor deflecting bullets. He has done much more than this however and I'm sure I'll be posting them in later post. I'll wait for your actual intro but as it stands Superman will have his hands full with both of these opponents.
Oh boy... I think we all saw this one coming. Speed. Clark's biggest advantage in this match-up is his speed. While Thor and Hulk have decent reaction feats (which still don't come anywhere close to Clark's), they're are pretty lacking when it comes to raw combat speed. Clark has fought at high speeds on several occasions, and I honestly can't see any reason why either of these characters would be able to tag him (even working together, there speed is just that inferior to Clark's).
Lands THOUSANDS of blows on Doomsday within a couple of seconds.
The teams only real chance of tagging Clark is via AoE lightning attacks from Thor, but even that won't help them much. Clark has reacted to point blank explosions, and literally reacts to and perceives lightning in slow motion.
Now combine Clark's immense speed with his striking power and you get a deadly combo (especially since Clark is going all out).
Speaking of striking power, let's dive deeper into the subject. I already presented a feat where the reflected force of Clark's punch was enough shatter the moon (which alone shows that Clark has the ability to harm both Thor and Hulk), but let's just list a few other feats while were at it. Below is one of Clark's most notable striking feats, where he shakes the entire Earth with a single punch (the strike is so potent that it can be felt at edges of Earth's atmosphere).
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Let's not stop there though, Clark has been shown to harm beings of impressive durability on several occasions. For example, Darkseid.
What makes Clark harming Darkseid so impressive, is the fact that Darkseid was able to withstand the destruction of a planet (which was somewhat caused by him and High Father trading blows). So I think it's safe to say that both Thor and Hulk aren't beyond being harmed/put down by Clark's strikes.
Moving on from that, what else can Clark do? Well, for starters, he can utilize his x-ray vision to scan your teams body for weak areas (vital organs, bones that may get broken thought out the fight, etc...).
X-rays Ukar's body and determines whether he'll be a challenge or not.
Clark can also utilize pressure-points. While it's iffy as to whether pressure-points would work on Hulk, they'd definitely working on Thor, who's fallen prey to them in the past.
Below are multiple instances of Clark using pressure-points.
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Drops dozens of pressure-points on Ultraman at high speeds.
Using pressure-points against Kryptonian soldiers.
Using pressure-points on Mongol.
Lastly, Clark has his ice-breath. It maybe just seem like nothing to your guys, but Clark's ice-breath is extremely potent and is strong enough to contain Wonder Woman.
What makes it even more impressive, is the fact that Clark's ice-breath can even freeze intangible beings.
While it may prove to be just an annoyance to Hulk and Thor, I think it could at least slow them down just a bit (which isn't even taking into account how slow they already are compared to Clark).
For my final thoughts on this battle, let's talk strategy. Clark is the strategist. For example, below Clakr tosses the Daily Planet globe at an opponent and uses it as a cover up for his blitz.
Clark could also play a game of divide and conquer. He could blitz both Hulk and Thor to the other side of the planet, or simply toss Hulk away and then focus on either of the duo individually.
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Clark blitzing Doomsday to Venus (above).
Clark tossing away Parasite and a room full of villains fails to react to him.
Oh yeah, and just a few nitpicks. First off, in the Thor scan that ASD posted, Young Thor didn't hit Gorr to another galaxy. He knocked him into portal that sent him to another galaxy.
I also question the validness of the Grey-Hulk vs. Wonder Man fight. From what I understand, Wonder Man has gone toe to toe with Thor and even lifted weights specially designed for Thor. He's also held his own against other heavy hitters such as Gladiator on several occasions. I find it odd that the weakest version (or at least one of the weakest) of Hulk was able to physically overwhelm in like that.
Recap:
Superman is faster than both of the duo combine, and neither would be able to land a blow on him (especially since he's going all out).
Superman has the damage output necessary to put down both of the duo.
Superman can easily takeout Thor with pressure-points.
Superman can use his x-ray vision to target weak spots in the duos bodies.
Superman can use his ice-breath to slow the duo down even further.
Superman can play divide and conquer, and single both members of the duo out as he sees fit.
@the_man_with_questions: Gonna have to post tomorrow, I was finishing my post, was about to counter your conclusions, then forgot we were going all out. Have to change everything now...
@supremegeneration:Alright, for real this time. Also, would you mind editing OP?
SMASH
Counters
Your Speed and Striking vs Hulk's Durability
Oh boy... I think we all saw this one coming. Speed. Clark's biggest advantage in this match-up is his speed. While Thor and Hulk have decent reaction feats (which still don't come anywhere close to Clark's), they're are pretty lacking when it comes to raw combat speed. Clark has fought at high speeds on several occasions, and I honestly can't see any reason why either of these characters would be able to tag him (even working together, there speed is just that inferior to Clark's).
The Man of Steel's speed in an argument?! WHAT?! Yes, we saw it coming... To start off, Clark's "all out" punches don't look like how he was punching DD; they're more like what he did with H'el. Admittedly, I don't read almost anything DC but I know the bigger fights. Against H'el he was actually bloodlusted iirc, and he was punching slow and strong. In terms of actual combat speed though, Hulk is pretty underrated. No one is holding back, right?
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I have 3 separate instances, Incredible Hulk#455, Marvel Fanfare #3, and Indestructible Hulk #12, in which Hulk punches so fast he seems to grow extra limbs. The speed required to do that is immense, and in the third scan he blitzed cowboys whose sole power was speed - they could turn regular, Western-esque guns into gattling guns - but they couldn't react to the big green guy. Saying that Hulk's combat speed is rather slow is a very interesting understatement...
The teams only real chance of tagging Clark is via AoE lightning attacks from Thor, but even that won't help them much. Clark has reacted to point blank explosions, and literally reacts to and perceives lightning in slow motion.
First off, fictional lightning =/= real lightning. Even if it were close, lightning is about half the speed of light. Although that's impressive and all, if we're not holding back, then Thor's AoE lightning strikes will definitely be enough to hurt and tag Supes, especially given the whole "magic" aspect.
Speaking of striking power, let's dive deeper into the subject. I already presented a feat where the reflected force of Clark's punch was enough shatter the moon (which alone shows that Clark has the ability to harm both Thor and Hulk), but let's just list a few other feats while were at it. Below is one of Clark's most notable striking feats, where he shakes the entire Earth with a single punch (the strike is so potent that it can be felt at edges of Earth's atmosphere).
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Moon shattering? What's that; 1/4 of the Earth? My good friend, if we're still not holding back, I'll just move on to the big guns.
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Tales to Astonish #89
Hulk there fights through the energy needed to change a planet's orbit channeled by the Stranger
Incredible Hulk #112
Hulk battles his way through Galaxy Master's blasts - blasts that shatter planets
If moon-busting is the best we have, then Superman will be incredibly hard-pressed to even damage Hulk.
Let's not stop there though, Clark has been shown to harm beings of impressive durability on several occasions. For example, Darkseid.
What makes Clark harming Darkseid so impressive, is the fact that Darkseid was able to withstand the destruction of a planet (which was somewhat caused by him and High Father trading blows). So I think it's safe to say that both Thor and Hulk aren't beyond being harmed/put down by Clark's strikes.
Harm? All he did was move his head back, but assuming that counts as hurting, then given only the feats we have here Hulk's durability is already close to Darkseid's. I'll show you another to seal the deal.
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In Incredible Hulks #616, Hulk is taking kinetic energy that was shattering that planet; that planet was the size of Mars. Skaar with the Old Power spoke to the planet and it said it was being shattered. These feats are more than enough to say Hulk can not only survive Superman's flurry of punches but with the combat speed I provided Hulk can probably tag him right back. I'll touch on that later, though.
Pressure Points vs Hulk's immunity to them
Not immunity per se, but high resistance.
Moving on from that, what else can Clark do? Well, for starters, he can utilize his x-ray vision to scan your teams body for weak areas (vital organs, bones that may get broken thought out the fight, etc...).
Clark can also utilize pressure-points. While it's iffy as to whether pressure-points would work on Hulk, they'd definitely working on Thor, who's fallen prey to them in the past.
Below are multiple instances of Clark using pressure-points.
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Drops dozens of pressure-points on Ultraman at high speeds.
Using pressure-points against Kryptonian soldiers.
Using pressure-points on Mongol.
Since going all out would imply no morals, I doubt Clark would think about doing this. Even with that, I have to say that Hulk won't be affected:
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Marvel Team-Up #105
Iron Fist can't do it
Inhumans #12
Karnak? Nope.
Agents of Atlas #8
Want someone with strength? Temugin's torn apart Iron Man's armor with his bare hands, and nothing on Hulk
So this isn't gonna work. He'd try and only fail, giving Hulk the time he needs to tag him.
Your Freeze Breath vs My Resistance
Lastly, Clark has his ice-breath. It maybe just seem like nothing to your guys, but Clark's ice-breath is extremely potent and is strong enough to contain Wonder Woman.
What makes it even more impressive, is the fact that Clark's ice-breath can even freeze intangible beings.
While it may prove to be just an annoyance to Hulk and Thor, I think it could at least slow them down just a bit (which isn't even taking into account how slow they already are compared to Clark).
Why would he freeze when he's going all out; he wouldn't be thinking smart. Either way, I'd argue both Hulk and Thor are at least a tier above Diana in strength and if these feats have anything to say about that is that it's true in terms of freezing:
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Hopefully this is all enough to say he survive and break out freezing in time to do things - that is, smash Supes a new one. Sorry for lack of issues but that's a ton, man.
"Strategist"
For my final thoughts on this battle, let's talk strategy. Clark is the strategist. For example, below Clakr tosses the Daily Planet globe at an opponent and uses it as a cover up for his blitz.
Clark could also play a game of divide and conquer. He could blitz both Hulk and Thor to the other side of the planet, or simply toss Hulk away and then focus on either of the duo individually.
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Clark blitzing Doomsday to Venus (above).
All I had to do was read the narration on the first one- he had to get it away from the planet so he distracted it. No need to do that here.
As for divide and conquer, he'll be hard pressed to do given that Gladiator (someone as strong give or take as Supes) suffered the fate Supes will endure if he tries:
This will leave him stunned enough for Thor to his damage and then some.
Moving forward, we also have to remember that Supes isn't holding back. In his universe he's one of the top dogs; he wouldn't need to think. He needs to punch. That's usually all he does anyways.
The Nitpick
I also question the validness of the Grey-Hulk vs. Wonder Man fight. From what I understand, Wonder Man has gone toe to toe with Thor and even lifted weights specially designed for Thor. He's also held his own against other heavy hitters such as Gladiator on several occasions. I find it odd that the weakest version (or at least one of the weakest) of Hulk was able to physically overwhelm in like that.
Thanks KA... Really...
Joe Fixit is the 2nd weakest and this fight was later on in WM's career- by feats, WM has gotten much weaker over the years. Back then, hanging with Thor. In Civil War? Sent after one of the Spider-Fam, of all people. WM has, to my knowledge, never held his own w/ Gladiator. Also, WM's strength depends on the amount of Ionic energy in his body so he was probably lower than usual. Not to mention, the infamous asteroid 2x Earth feat. This is definitely within Fixit's league.
Your Conclusion
Superman is faster than both of the duo combine, and neither would be able to land a blow on him (especially since he's going all out).
Superman has the damage output necessary to put down both of the duo.
Superman can easily takeout Thor with pressure-points.
Superman can use his x-ray vision to target weak spots in the duos bodies.
Superman can use his ice-breath to slow the duo down even further.
Superman can play divide and conquer, and single both members of the duo out as he sees fit.
Superman wins.
Supes might be faster, but given that he's going all out he's not going to give a flurry of punches. He's going to punch stronger, sure, but that's enough for Hulk to tag him. Don't forget, while he punches one of us the other can still get him.
Not with the feats provided; at least not against Hulk.
Skip...
Karnak hit Hulk's weakest point and hurt himself. Temugin broke Iron Man's armor w/ his bare hands and couldn't hurt Hulk in his weak points. Not only this, but if we're going all out then Supes wouldn't think smart. He'd just hit and hit.
Freezing doesn't bother Hulk; I've proved that much. It won't slow him down either.
Basically #4, Supes would be too hard-pressed in a fight to even think about being smart about this.
Skip...
Hulk's Reactions and Striking
Now that we've cleared that Hulk can tag the Man of Steel and survive his punches, we have to think; how will he react? How much will his punches hurt? Quite the bit, I'd imagine.
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While striking Gamma-Amped Boars in Incredible Hulk #3, Hulk causes 5.6-magnitude earthquakes, and we're not even getting into the bigger stuff. I'm at somewhat of an impasse since you've only provided a single durability feat for Supes. A quick Google search says that's between 80k-1mill blocks of TNT, probably closer to the former. A lack of durability feats says I should use some more striking;
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From denting Adamantium (Secret Wars I), pounding 1/2 Phoenix Emma through an island (AvX) and harming Gladiator (someone comparable to Supes; pretty sure it's Hulk Annual 1997). There's decades upon decades of feats to say that Hulk can harm Superman. Moving on, reactions;
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In Indestructible Hulk #13, Hulk reacts to a plane teleporting to them out of nowhere, while moving at full speed, while he had his back turned. If that's not damn impressive, I don't know what is.
Conclusion
I believe I've sufficiently proven that Hulk can tag, react to, and hurt, and survive Supes. Nothing as of yet suggests he can't. Both sides are going all out, meaning Hulk has no reason to do nothing in this battle. It's 2v1.
We also have to remember that Clark isn't holding back either - he won't be trying to fight smart or anything along those lines. While he's punching at one - probably Hulk, being bigger and all - the other will be gunning for him. It's up to ASD to prove he can hurt Clark, but I've shown that if it's Hulk vs Clark as he hits Thor then Supes is definitely feeling the punches.
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