CaV: Pope052(Aragorn) vs TLSSH(Jon Snow)

Pope052; Aragorn, Son of Arathorn:

vs

TLSSH; Jon Snow of Winterfell:

Rules:

• Morals on.
• Standard gear for both.
• Jon has Ghost with him.
• Victory is by death.

Location; Just outside The Wall:

@pope052 Look good?

Interesting. T4V

BUMP

@the_legendary_supersaiyan_hulk: Love both of those pictures :D, yeah it's great, I'll get to work on my opener now.

Oh my.

T4V

@the_legendary_supersaiyan_hulk: Alright, just so everyone knows I'm only to be using the film version of Aragorn for this battle. I'd say most are familiar enough with Aragorn as well as LOTR in general, so I'm going to go skip a character introduction and jump straight into debate. This won't be too detailed as I aim to cover the three movies of the trilogy throughout a space of roughly 3-4 posts and then a following conclusion.

Aragorn, Son of Arathorn

Without a doubt this is certainly an intriguing match up and especially against someone of your standard, however I'll be pretty blunt by saying that Jon Snow (despite having a fairly powerful direwolf at his side) more or less has zero advantage against the King Of Gondor at the end of the day. Being up to date on the series and having read a little of the ASOIAF novels, I'm aware of what Jon is capable of and what his limits are. Aragorn has fought throughout and overcame much tougher battles, opponents and is simply physically, and skillfully (in experience, strategy and combative capabilities ) superior. Although since Ghost is tagging along it'll prove to be more difficult, but in my opinion it's still not to any significant difference.

So now that my main view of how this battle will play out is out of the way, let's get down to business.

Equipment:

• Anduril
• Ranger's Armor
• Dagger

Gallery

For Jon to have a remote chance of getting the upper hand on Aragorn by any means he'll have to rely on Ghost heavily, and even then Aragorn is more than able to fight his way out of an ambush like approach or something similar.

His immediate reaction speed is faster than Jon's for starters, being able to draw his sword and have it immediately combat ready in less than a second.

As far as battling multiple opponents goes, Aragorn is no stranger to them whatsoever,. While Jon is indeed capable of beating a number of above average fodder at once with ease and he has certainly had his share of tough/skilled opponents too, the difference is that most if not all of the foes (including fodder) that Aragorn has beaten generally are more formidable than the fodder Jon is used to. Aragorn has managed to fend off four Nazgul and the Witch King to defend the hobbits, opponents who individually are a sufficient challenge for Jon - let alone all five at the one time.

In Balin's Tomb among the other members of the Fellowship, Aragorn effortlessly slaughters a number of orcs, beings who are strong and ferocious enough to overwhelm well trained soldiers and a group this size would annihilate Castle Black, yet Aragorn treats them like nothing. About three minutes into the fight he also demonstrates the physical strength to impale a cave troll and then survives a strong backhand from it.

I'll leave it at that and finish off this opener with a quick summary of the points I've made:

• Although speed isn't too big of a deal, I'd say Aragorn on average is a fairly faster combatant than Jon.
• Aragorn casually handles and kills fodder that Jon would at least struggle with.
• He is used to fighting multiple opponents of greater strength than he possesses himself more than Jon is, which means that Aragorn has quite the edge in terms of the backing striking power of his sword - on top of his other superior physicals and skills.

There's so much more to come that'll properly reinforce what I think above, but i'll save the more detailed sections for later, your move my friend :D.

@pope052: I'll just put my character intro here before I get into the debate itself:

Jon Snow, High Commander of the Night's Watch:

Jon Snow, the bastard of Winterfell. Despite being a bastard, or at least that's what the show would have us believe, Jon was raised at Winterfell with the rest of his true-born brothers and sisters. Like his other brothers Jon was trained how to fight with a sword, and he was good at it. After King Robert visited Winterfell Jon had made up his mind to join the Night's Watch, an order of men made up of criminals and outcasts to defend The Wall from northern invasion. There he trained a bit more, but actually just ended up helping other recruits and training them to fight. Eventually the time would come that he was forced to kill the High Commander and then voted to be his replacement later on.

His gear:

Longclaw:

Longclaw is a sword made from Valyrian steel, one of the strongest metals in the GoT universe. It's so well-made that it actually can shatter other swords as well as counter a White Walker's weapon.

Standard Night Watch garb:

Essentially made of light-weight hard leather armor as well as furs to protect against the cold.

His Direwolf, Ghost:

A very large, very dangerous, very protective wolf that is loyal to Jon Snow.

As for the response post, I'll have that up in a little bit(hopefully).

@pope052:

In Balin's Tomb among the other members of the Fellowship, Aragorn effortlessly slaughters a number of orcs, beings who are strong and ferocious enough to overwhelm wellTRAINED soldiers and a group this size would annihilate Castle Black, yet Aragorn treats them like nothing. About three minutes into the fight he also demonstrates the physical strength to impale a cave troll and then survives a strong backhand from it.

I'd firstly like to get this out of the way; orc's(who I consider look more like goblin's in LotR) are really shameful to watch. They are completely unskilled and heavily rely upon strength of numbers to win rather than actual combat prowess. Even in the video you posted they're being killed left and right by hobbits. Hell, even some of them stop for no reason to do something stupid like hiss(Lol really, 0:45 of your vid). I think that being killed by untrained hobbits is enough to discredit any combat feat they can award.

Jon can replicate such feats as well with the same amount of speed:

Starting at 0:21 when he enters the battlefield: He is instantly met with multiple opponents who he deals with just as fast and then goes on through more as he makes his way across.

Using fodder as feats is never good, no matter what universe they're from. Especially goblin-kind, they're usually never represented as skilled opponents.

As far as battling multiple opponents goes, Aragorn is no stranger to them whatsoever,. While Jon is indeed capable of beating a number of above average fodder at once with ease and he has certainly had his share of tough/skilled opponents too, the difference is that most if not all of the foes (including fodder) that Aragorn has beaten generally are more formidable than the fodder Jon is used to. Aragorn has managed to fend off four Nazgul and the Witch King to defend the hobbits, opponents who individually are a sufficient challenge for Jon - let alone all five at the one time.

To be fair that Nazgul scene isn't really that impressive. During most of that skirmish, the majority of the Nazgul don't even take him on at the same time. If you watch closely you can see most of them just waited in the back and waited to attack practically one at a time. During this scene it's also apparent that Aragorn looked like he was more or less flailing his sword about with a torch.... of which the Nazgul were stupid enough to get hit with. Honestly, looking back at it, the Nazgul were never as impressive as they were hyped up to be. That scene had no indication of a skilled fighter Aragorn is supposed to be, hell if you look above to my video where Jon fights Styr you can see how the actual skill of the fighters stacks up. You can see Jon knows what he's doing, timing the blows, parrying and countering... much of which Aragorn lacks from the videos you posted.

• Starting at 3:38 of your Nazgul video look closely at the fight scene, most of the Nazgul are in the back swaying back and forth and not really doing anything.
• Styr fight; Starts 1:50 of my above video.

I'll leave it at that for now, now let the true debate begin!

*Ah, sorry. Didn't see the video wouldn't allow play on other sites. Here's a link to the video, I'll make sure to check beforehand later in the debate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDTOc_oUFHU

EDIT: You can't be serious, every video I found on youtube has been disabled for other sites... well, hope the voters don't mind going through youtube links if the rest of the videos are like this as well...

@the_legendary_supersaiyan_hulkkas: Sweet intro and opening post mate, I apologize for the delay (as my response failed to post initially) but now let's get straight back to the point on why the former Lord Commander of the Night's Watch is simply no match for the King of Gondor.

I'd firstly like to get this out of the way; orc's(who I consider look more like goblin's in LotR) are really shameful to watch. They are completely unskilled and heavily rely upon strength of numbers to win rather than actual combat prowess. Even in the video you posted they're being killed left and right by hobbits. Hell, even some of them stop for no reason to do something stupid like hiss(Lol really, 0:45 of your vid). I think that being killed by untrained hobbits is enough to discredit any combat feat they can award.

There's a couple of clear issues here. Firstly, the term Goblin is merely another name for an Orc in Tolkien's works and refers to the lesser breed of Orc. While it's true that most of the time the Orcs are consistent in holding the strong numbers advantage, that certainly isn't their only way to make it through their battles as they also possess the strength, resilience and sheer ferocity in order to best an opponent who shines bright in the skill department - and the proof for this is abundant throughout the trilogy. The forces of Gondor are incredibly trained and skilled warriors who would easily outclass the armies of Westeros in every category, due to being arguably the most capable of fending off most of Sauron's forces (who are infinitely more of a threat than the Unsullied or the White Walkers, the best Westeros has to offer in other words) and the descriptions of the 2nd & 3rd Age strengthen these claims.

However, an aptitude for battle skill wasn't nearly enough to stop the Orcs from forcing Faramir and his men out of Osgiliath.

And when the time came, the Orcs eventually almost had the entirety of Minas Tirith under siege and Gondor was in a crucial need of aid from Rohirim.

Skill doesn't account for everything in battle, especially against an opponent at much more of a physical advantage. This fits in nicely for my overall case for Aragorn, since the Orc fodder he takes apart seamlessly is nevertheless more difficult to accomplish as opposed to Jon's performances against much lesser calibres of fodder (such as Wildlings, Nights Watchmen, etc). These cannot be compared to Aragorn's showings as if they're battling opponents on equal footing. A point I'll explain in greater detail later on, but hopefully you should get the gist of what I've said here up to now anyway and why it matters.

Now, onto my second point. You extremely underestimate the strengths and abilities of the Hobbits but this isn't surprising. At first glance the Hobbits of the Shire will seem harmless, but yet they're a hardy and courageous folk who never fail to impress and the following quote describes them perfectly.

The very plot of the Lord of the Rings circles around the journey of a duo of Hobbits that accomplish a task thought to be impossible, which involved countless challenges and obstacles Frodo and Sam were forced to overcome - both combat relevant and otherwise. Even Merry and Pippin took part in the battle for Minas Tirith, Pelennor Fields, as well as standing at both Gondor and Rohirim's side quite literally at Sauron's front door. Among a number of other acts of strength and bravery done on their behalf, I'm sure you're somewhat familiar with Sam driving off the very creature that struck fear into Mordor?

So no, the Hobbits are anything but a pushover and that notion is just an incorrect generalization. Orcs being killed left right and centre by them is not a case of low showings for the Orcs, it's a case of consistent showings for the benefit of the Hobbits. Anyway, to get back onto how this applies to Aragorn, the Mines of Moria clip contains a few decent feats on his part that I didn't really point out, which is something to do now.

• 0:27 - 0:45 - Despite using his bow at first, Aragorn can immediately switch to his sword and engage in combat at a very close distance.
• 0:46 - 0:48 - Easily decapitates an Orc with a clean sword swing.
• 1:11 - 1:14 - With the help of Boromir, both he and Aragorn are strong enough to pull the cave troll away from Sam.
• 1:23 - 1:26 - Simply throws his dagger into an Orc's vulnerable spot, killing it instantly.
• 2:30 - 2:33 - Swiftly and skilfully takes out a couple of Orcs.
• 2:53 - 2:55 - Physically overpowers another two Orcs.
• 3:12 - 3:19 - Manages to stab the troll in the chest and survives a hit from it that would've been fatal to a regular man.

Even with the better fodder to aid my case, Aragorn still proves himself naturally physically superior, quicker and more skilled (employing techniques, general skill as a swordsman, etc) than Jon has displayed thus far - leaving Aragorn at a general advantage in essentially all categories with a lot more to come. The ability to pull back a cave troll and hold it off momentarily should aid his case against Ghost here too, who isn't a big threat and could be taken out by a thrown dagger.

Jon can replicate such feats as well with the same amount of speed: Starting at 0:21 when he enters the battlefield: He is instantly met with multiple opponents who he deals with just as fast and then goes on through more as he makes his way across.

As soon as Jon disembarked the lift he killed three opponents fairly well, but only by his standard. It took him a good thirteen seconds to kill four Wildlings and you'll notice he needed a breather afterwards, where as it took Aragorn no more than three seconds to dispose of two Orcs and kept going. Styr was a tough opponent and had decent reflexes but he is no better than an Orc if you'd even consider him to be on that level. His fighting style mainly involved swinging his battle axe in a circular motion and heavily relied on power to execute his strikes, which is methodically similar to an Orc's style, but he lacks the physicality to keep up. An average Orc can easily demolish a soldier of Gondor with strength alone, despite being at a significant height, weight and armor disadvantage.

Not to mention, it didn't take long for Styr's brute strength to top Snow's superior skill and resulted in Jon requiring a couple of cheap shots to win. Even then, he only barely made it through and couldn't resume battle afterwards, which says very little in comparison to Aragorn. Even against notable opponents, Jon has never really been able to apply his skill as well as he can against fodder, as he was quite obviously destroyed here by Karl Tanner.

Sure, Tanner is fast and quite skilled, but he's certainly no Aragorn and wouldn't last long in a battle that he'd be attuned to. In fact, very few in Westeros could, because their fights are usually a lot less intense.

And in one of Jon's best showings against the White Walker (a powerful opponent, but would be stomped by a cave troll), Jon was outmatched in all categories and Longclaw was his saving grace in that encounter, which wasn't even to his knowledge in the first place.

While I'd say the White Walker would give Aragorn a run for his money as well, give Aragorn Longclaw and I'd side with him 10/10 times due to the far better combat related attributes to Jon.

Using fodder as feats is never good, no matter what universe they're from. Especially goblin-kind, they're usually never represented as skilled opponents.

Excuse any possible bluntness, but this is just flat out wrong. If the attributes of the cannon fodder in question can be determined (which in Aragorn's defense they have been) then compared to the fodder of another universe and come out as better, then there's no reason not to use feats for your character beating the aforementioned fodder, in fact it's one of the most common ways of gauging one's capabilities and limits but it's also misunderstood. Middle Earth is pure fantasy based where as Westeros is fantasy but with more of a realistic approach. Due to the differences in theme, the beings of Lord of the Rings seem to be on quite a higher level in general and they are. While that may sound like a very bland and general argument, it really isn't since we've legitimately seen how Middle Earth fodder compares to Westeros fodder, and most would tell that Aragorn's side is winning due to the evidence provided.

Hopefully that has been explained well enough already, but I'll do a quick summary of what I've said above for the sake of it. Fodder A > Fodder B, therefore the character who has good showings against Fodder A has a much more reliable case than the character with showings against Fodder B. Of course, using fodder is hardly the only way to judge who'll win in a fight, however typically it does and should contribute to the debate in many important ways.

Moving on from petty Orc fodder, allow me to introduce the Uruk-Hai.

The Uruk-Hai are another breed of Orc, except they're more akin to Orcs on steroids. These guys humiliate the Orcs that you've seen already in every single category and were bred by Saruman to march on Helm's Deep against not only men of Rohirim, but the Elves too.

You can skip ahead towards the end of the video where they begin to climb the walls, I couldn't find the full battle but this'll have to do. Elves to Men are what Uruk-Hai are to regular Orcs, essentially, they're decently superior combatants and the Uruk-Hai are more than a match for them nonetheless. Despite these enhancements, it doesn't necessarily matter to Aragorn at the end of the day, as he ploughs through them same fold.

• 0:25 - 0:46 - Against an entire squadron, Aragorn slaughters a number of Uruk-Hai by himself with ease.
• 0:55 - 0:57 - The force of hs body weight slamming on top of the Uruk-Hai kills a few of them.
• 1:11 - 1:14 - His sheer striking power sends a mobile Uruk-Hai flying off it's feet.
• 1:16 - 1:21 - While backed up against a wall, Aragorn still fights off an Uruk-Hai (w/ excellent speed and skill) with no problems.
• 2:29 - 2:31 - Silences an Uruk-Hai that attacked from behind.

Note that in most if not all of Aragorn's battles, he well outlasts Jon in the stamina department and that will act well to already being physically superior and more skilled than Jon overall. Later on after this encounter, Aragorn confonts the Uruk-Hai Captain, Lurtz, and although he heavily struggled to fight him (sort of similar to how Jon struggled against Styr), he manages to fight his way through and defeat him with moderate difficulty.

Which is to detract from using fodder anyway, Lurtz was an opponent who Jon has absolutely no chance of defeating from what I've seen.

To be fair that Nazgul scene isn't really that impressive. During most of that skirmish, the majority of the Nazgul don't even take him on at the same time. If you watch closely you can see most of them just waited in the back and waited to attack practically one at a time. During this scene it's also apparent that Aragorn looked like he was more or less flailing his sword about with a torch.... of which the Nazgul were stupid enough to get hit with. Honestly, looking back at it, the Nazgul were never as impressive as they were hyped up to be. That scene had no indication of a skilled fighter Aragorn is supposed to be, hell if you look above to my video where Jon fights Styr you can see how the actual skill of the fighters stacks up. You can see Jon knows what he's doing, timing the blows, parrying and countering... much of which Aragorn lacks from the videos you posted.

I don't think it's becuase the Nazgul were unimpressive and sloppy, but more so due to the fact that Aragorn caught them off guard and the scene captured the extent of his speed compared to opponents on such a higher level by basically clearing them all away from the Hobbits at once. In the books, I believe there was a feat that went along the lines of the Hobbits not even being able to perceive Aragorn in the fight, so the film was more than likely attempting to fit this feat in although toned it down quite a lot, but it's still notable.

That'll do for this post and again I apologize for the wait mate, so take all the time you need to put your response together :D

@pope052: It's kewl, as I said, not really in a rush~ I'll give this a read and respond sometime over the next few days :p

You'd think Jon Snow loses, he knows nothing.

@pope052:

If you are only using the film version, surely you can't use info from the books?

@serpinethegreen: I'm not using any feats from the books, just descriptions on certain characters since it's easier to refer to them for that than the films.

t4v. this is an awesome freakin battle.

Yasssss! This debate looks dope, tag me for votes when you're done.

Pope052:

The descriptions from the books (strictly speaking) aren't canon to the films. Heck none of what happebed in the books are canon to films. Only what happens in the films are canon to the films.

@serpinethegreen: I'm only using the book descriptions to explain races in general, and the ones I've used apply well to the film trilogy. It has nothing to do with being canon or not, I'm merely using a couple of quotes from the books to detail on how certain characters are represented in the movies - and it translates fairly accurately.

Anyway, it's up to my opponent to points these things out and not you. Besides, it's not even a case of me using any feats from the books to take into consideration here in the first place.

@pope052:

I'll leave it for now (only brought it up to give you the benefit if the doubt) I will say using any part of the books (any part) in a movie LOTR debate will hurt your debate. Just something to think about.

@serpinethegreen: Except I'm not using it for the benefit of the debate, at all, just for comparison.

@pope052:

The descriptions in the books don't necessarily follow thou. Take smaug for example (I know it's the hobbit) In the book he's described as a fire drake (four legs, two wings) in the film he's clearly a wyrm (two wings, two legs)

@serpinethegreen: Well that's a clear difference but I don't see any flaws in the ones I've used, but anyway, leave this for now and i'll my opponent will bring it to question if necessary.

@pope052:

There's a couple of clear issues here. Firstly, the term Goblin is merely another name for an Orc in Tolkien's works and refers to the lesser breed of Orc. While it's true that most of the time the Orcs are consistent in holding the strong numbers advantage, that certainly isn't their only way to make it through their battles as they also possess the strength, resilience and sheer ferocity in order to best an opponent who shines bright in the skill department - and the proof for this is abundant throughout the trilogy. The forces of Gondor are incredibly trained and skilled warriors who would easily outclass the armies of Westeros in every category, due to being arguably the most capable of fending off most of Sauron's forces (who are infinitely more of a threat than the Unsullied or the White Walkers, the best Westeros has to offer in other words) and the descriptions of the 2nd & 3rd Age strengthen these claims.

Yes, the mighty and skilled men of Gondor. Trained for battle and ready to fight to the death. Killing off the scourge from Mordor so that the rest of men may rest at night. You know who else has killed off these dastardly creatures? Hobbits. Untrained, unskilled, unaccustomed to battle hobbits. No matter how you put it, as long as people like hobbits continue to kill these soldiers I will remain unimpressed. As far as the combat prowess of an individual orc is concerned, it's largely unimpressive. As I've said in my earlier post, they don't rely on their capabilities in battle to win wars, they rely heavily on the force of sheer numbers. I'm afraid the significance of orc combat is just going to have to be disagreed upon.

The very plot of the Lord of the Rings circles around the journey of a duo of Hobbits that accomplish a task thought to be impossible, which involved countless challenges and obstacles Frodo and Sam were forced to overcome - both combat relevant and otherwise. Even Merry and Pippin took part in the battle for Minas Tirith, Pelennor Fields, as well as standing at both Gondor and Rohirim's side quite literally at Sauron's front door. Among a number of other acts of strength and bravery done on their behalf, I'm sure you're somewhat familiar with Sam driving off the very creature that struck fear into Mordor?

I will agree that Sam, while still untrained for the majority, is an exception. I will not deny his capability in battle, even if he does get a good amount of luck at times. The others however? Far from it.

Skill doesn'tACCOUNT for everything in battle, especially against an opponent at much more of a physical advantage. This fits in nicely for my overall case for Aragorn, since the Orc fodder he takes apart seamlessly is nevertheless more difficult to accomplish as opposed to Jon's performances against much lesser calibres of fodder (such as Wildlings, Nights Watchmen, etc). These cannot be compared to Aragorn's showings as if they're battling opponents on equal footing. A point I'll explain in greater detail later on, but hopefully you should get the gist of what I've said here up to now anyway and why it matters.

You're right, skill doesn't account for everything in a fight. However, it does heavily impact the outcome of a battle. Relying on your physical advantages can only get you so far, and often times can lead to it being a crutch(such as Gregor's defeat at the hands of Oberyn). Skill on the other hand is more reliable, being able to counter your opponent's blows and return them is far more advantageous than physical prowess.

Even in the regard of physical superiority, Aragorn isn't that far ahead if at all. For example, during the fight with the White Walker you posted above.

For the most of the fight Jon actually does hold his own against him. The White Walker didn't totally dominate him, Jon actually was able to dodge and counter him and probably would have continued to do so had the sword he picked up not shattered.. Keep in mind that the White Walkers are physically superior to humans, yet Jon was able to parry blow for blow when in direct combat.

• 2:56 for White Walker fight.

Nor is he incapable of fighting fast fighters, even if they wield dual weaponry:

*Link in case video doesn't work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58x1lD2flv8 *

*Edit, didn't see that you had Karl in your post*

I think you're not giving this fight enough credit. Karl is much faster than most of the people Aragorn had to fight. Most of Aragorn's opponents moved around sluggishly/awkwardly in their armors, making it easier to get his slices in. Karl on the other hand isn't limited by such factors and has his full speed open to him, which Jon was able to match. Not only this, but Karl also was dual wielding, making this even better due to the immediate threats in both hands.

The Uruk-Hai are another breed of Orc, except they're more akin to Orcs on steroids. These guys humiliate the Orcs that you've seen already in every single category and were bred by Saruman to march on Helm's Deep against not only men of Rohirim, but the Elves too.

So, they're humiliated in the same fashion that everyone else in Middle Earth humiliates them in?

Lol, I kid, I kid. :p

You can skip ahead towards the end of the video where they begin to climb the walls, I couldn't find the full battle but this'll have to do. Elves to Men are what Uruk-Hai are to regular Orcs, essentially, they're decently superior combatants and the Uruk-Hai are more than a match for them nonetheless. Despite these enhancements, it doesn't necessarily matter to Aragorn at the end of the day, as he ploughs through them same fold.

They can say whatever they want to about the Uruk-Hai, but if they die just as easily as the previous orcs it remains more or less the same. I mean, it's not like they seem to go down difficultly... a lot of the ones I see take one slice and just keel over.

Which is to detract from using fodder anyway, Lurtz was an opponent who Jon has absolutely no chance of defeating from what I've seen.

Lurtz I will agree was a good opponent, and Jon would be hard-pressed to take him on in a straight-out fight. But then again, Aragorn almost died there as well or could have multiple times.

@serpinethegreen I'm perfectly fine with him using quotes, especially the ones he did as I remember hearing them during the movies.

Now brace yourself:

@the_legendary_supersaiyan_hulk:

Fair enough.

Hope everyone is enjoying the show so far :)

@pope052: Ba-boomp~

@the_legendary_supersaiyan_hulk: Yeah man, I'm still working on completing the post, most of it's been done anyway it's just school's taking up a lot of my time recently.

It'll probably be up later on today or tomorrow for sure.

@the_legendary_supersaiyan_hulk: Aight, Round 3 everybody, here we go.

Yes, the mighty and skilled men of Gondor. Trained for battle and ready to fight to the death. Killing off the scourge from Mordor so that the rest of men may rest at night. You know who else has killed off these dastardly creatures? Hobbits. Untrained, unskilled, unaccustomed to battle hobbits. No matter how you put it, as long as people like hobbits continue to kill these soldiers I will remain unimpressed. As far as the combat prowess of an individual orc is concerned, it's largely unimpressive. As I've said in my earlier post, they don't rely on their capabilities in battle to win wars, they rely heavily on the force of sheer numbers. I'm afraid the significance of orc combat is just going to have to be disagreed upon.

This point alone either screams ignorance to the Lord of the Rings trilogy in general, or else it's just completely inconsiderate of what I've put into the past two posts. The Hobbits are capable of defeating their fair share of Orcs due to their natural aptitude for combat and hardiness, not because the Orcs are pathetic warriors in comparison. If that were true, there's no reason why they'd have posed such a threat to Middle Earth in the first place nor would they be Sauron's primary force in reattaining his power. In the clips I've posted above (if you actually watched through them, that is), you'll notice individual Orcs perfectly able to match and often overwhelm the superiorly trained, skilled, armored and experienced soldiers of Gondor in single combat. The evidence of their level of skill has been provided too, and essentially everything I've factually stated so far has been backed up in some way.

Are Orcs only capable of this because Gondor's men aren't as good in action as they are on paper? Not in the slightest, and anyone with even a somewhat limited degree of knowledge on the Lord of the Rings and/or Tolkien's works is aware of this.

The Orcs are treated as a threat for a reason, not just because of numbers, but their attributes that they bring to battle are certainly challenging to put it lightly. As for the Hobbits, the point has been said and defended, the prevalent Hobbits of the trilogy can and have done well in these exact battle scenarios. In Balin's Tomb, they were all capable of holding their own against the Goblins. In the battles for Minas Tirith and Pelennor Fields, both Merry and Pippin had parttaken in the fight and had a kill count themselves - especially Merry, being directly involved with the ride of Rohirim and proves himself greatly. Merry was also previously doubted by Theoden, Eomer and Rohirim in general simply for being a Hobbit, but yet he demonstrated otherwise.

He survived stabbing the Witch King, which no man should have been able to do realistically.

Pippin easily had an Orc to his kill list as well, as he jumped in before Gandalf was hit and succeeded.

The both of them stood side by side along with the remaining armies of men on a final stand against Mordor and fought through bravely.

They've truly been a long way in terms of battle, and even assisted the Ents in their march on Isengard. Frodo and Sam's case doesn't need to be explained, as the very plot of the films emphasizes just that, a quest that seemed laughably impossible was accomplished by two mere Hobbits with no past training nor experience. Unless you'd argue this is all one mere coincidence, I'd say they're pretty consistent in proving themselves ample for some serious bloodshed. While they're not as much of an overall well rounded combatant as a man of Gondor, they have enough going for them to fight the same battles well. It's not just these Hobbits either, as Bilbo had also produced a variety of feats by being always involved in these similar circumstances.

That point has been well phrased in my opinion and continuing to disregard the capabilities of the Hobbits is an argument built on quick sand. Anyway, to get back onto the Orcs, even though skill isn't their strong suit, they possess the ability to utilize it if necessary. A single Orc scout was more than a match for one of Theoden's guard (men of a higher rank than typical Rohirim forces) on horseback, and Legolas was required to step in before anything happened. If you watch the clip through, you'll notice Orcs defeating the soldiers just as easily as they do vice versa, as they've done in all instances that I've exhibited.

A couple of more feats for Aragorn from that particular battle include.

• 3:50 - 3:53 - Instantly kills a Warg by throwing a spear with only one attempt, creatures much more formidable than Ghost.
• 3:59 - 4:02 - Easily disarms and beats an Orc in three swift moves.
• 4:10 - 4:36 - Tanks a charge from a Warg and is then dragged across the ground by it, still managing to kill the Orc Rider and then later on surviving his fall off the cliff, which is surely an impressive display of fighting his way out of dire situations and general endurance as well.

Is that because Gondor's men aren't as good in action as they are on paper? Not in the slightest, and anyone with a half degree of knowledge on the Lord of the Rings and/or Tolkien's works is aware of this. The Orcs are treated as a threat for a reason, not simply because of numbers, but their attributes that they bring to battle are certainly challenging to put it lightly. It's easier to think of it as a grown man taking on a chimpanzee, for example. Sure, the man is bigger, weighs more, is more intelligent and can be more skilled, but a chimp is stronger, more resilient infinitely more vicious and potentially a lot more dangerous because of this. The logic applies and parallels to my case almost perfectly, but you haven't properly addressed and countered what I've said in any way, as you're arguing points that'd be made from a very generalized perspective of how these forces of Middle Earth truly operate.

I will agree that Sam, while still untrained for the majority, is an exception. I will not deny his capability in battle, even if he does get a good amount of luck at times. The others however? Far from it.

This has been debunked thoroughly, and the evidence is literally taken directly from the scenes of the films as it should be.

You're right, skill doesn't account for everything in a fight. However, it does heavily impact the outcome of a battle. Relying on your physical advantages can only get you so far, and often times can lead to it being a crutch(such as Gregor's defeat at the hands of Oberyn). Skill on the other hand is more reliable, being able to counter your opponent's blows and return them is far more advantageous than physical prowess.

Not when your opponent oumatches you in every physical category and is also equally well skilled if not more. What Jon's skill consists of in his battles is easily replicated and perfected by Aragorn if you pay attention to his fights. I'm up to date on Game of Thrones and I'm well aware of Jon's capabilities (which doesn't seem to be mutual in this debate), and I can say for sure that no feats of Jon can place him adequately to Aragorn's standards as a warrior altogether. Aragorn has it all over Jon, and this means that Aragorn is packing far more strength behind his sword swings, at a greater speed, and whilst possessing excellent skill as well as holding more experience as a swordsmen overall. I agree that skill is more reliable to determine a tactical and calculative combatant, but only if we're taking two characters who aren't far off from each other physically. The gap between Aragorn and Jon in physical terms is blatant and the tides turn in Aragorn's favor from what has already been shown. Aragorn, in general, casually combats and beats opponents on another level in comparison to who Jon is used to battling.

Aragorn's power as the true King of Gondor allowed him to surpass the King of the Dead, too, a being no mere man could've hoped to step up to.

His performace in said battles greatly advances his strength, skill, speed, endurance, stamina and thus ranks higher on the food chain as a combatant than Jon. The simply difference is that while Jon is a great warrior in his universe, Aragorn is also a great warrior in his. However, it's Jon who wouldn't be able to apply his skills to the same standard if they swapped universes, where as Aragorn would be having a relaxing vacation in Westeros.

Even in the regard of physical superiority, Aragorn isn't that far ahead if at all. For example, during the fight with the White Walker you posted above.

Since most of Aragorn's showings above have involved the consistent battling of opponents physically superior to Jon (Orcs, Uruk-Hai, Lurtz, a freaking Cave Troll, etc), I'd say he kind of his far ahead of Jon, and will be able to handle Ghost too. Granted, he might not be able to take a Cave Troll blow for blow, but he has been able to harm it and literally tug it back away from Sam (albeit with the help of Boromir, still something Jon can and hasn't replicated either way).

But Aragorn has legitimately held his own against a troll (smaller than a cave troll, but ridiculously powerful still) in single combat.

He struggled, no doubt about that, but he was more than capable of parrying the troll's strikes (at a significant disadvantage in strength and weapon size) as well as tanking a blow that sent him flying. In other words, Aragorn clearly handled an armored troll better than Jon handled a White Walker. An average troll in general is far more dangerous than a typical White Walker, as they possess superior strength, durability, speed and in this case armor over them.

For the most of the fight Jon actually does hold his own against him. The White Walker didn't totally dominate him, Jon actually was able to dodge and counter him and probably would have continued to do so had the sword he picked up not shattered.. Keep in mind that the White Walkers are physically superior to humans, yet Jon was able to parry blow for blow when in direct combat.

Not really, to be honest. The White Walker was mildly quick but it's movement was stiff, and any time it got it's hands on Jon it ragdolled him. When he got back up the second time after being flung, he couldn't even tag the White Walker and regardless of whether the sword smashed or not, the Walker still had a pretty good parry lined up. Jon would've been done there and then if the Walker wasn't shocked at Longclaw's strength, which granted him an opportunity for a swift finishing blow. On the other end, Aragorn countered and fought the troll for a while while not giving it any chance to crucially tag him.

Besides, even if you bring up this as a feat for Longclaw, Aragorn's sword Anduril (formerly Narsil) is more than a match for it.

It sliced off Sauron's finger in it's weaker state, and since then it's been reforged only becoming more potent.

Nor is he incapable of fighting fast fighters, even if they wield dual weaponry: I think you're not giving this fight enough credit. Karl is much faster than most of the people Aragorn had to fight. Most of Aragorn's opponents moved around sluggishly/awkwardly in their armors, making it easier to get his slices in. Karl on the other hand isn't limited by such factors and has his full speed open to him, which Jon was able to match. Not only this, but Karl also was dual wielding, making this even better due to the immediate threats in both hands.

Karl is fast for ordinary standards but the combat speed was not equal by any means in that, which is a complete bluff to even remotely suggest. Karl was countering Jon's attempts nigh effortlessly and threw him around with ease. Dual wielding doesn't make you faster, only more dangerous to an extent, and it certainly isn't a surprising technique to Aragorn considering most of the Orcs utilize it and rarely carry a single broadsword and/or a shield.

The thing is Karl applies his quickness well against people who fell short in comparison, and due to his lack of showings in the midst of a full on battle (especially since the Nights Watch men are a joke compared to the Orcs), it's unreliable to consider him any faster than an average Orc troop since the circumstances under which both perform differ greatly. It's only easy for Aragorn to get his attacks in because he's the best at what he does, and to call the Orcs and the like sluggish is a generalization which can be proved wrong if you watch throughout the full battle scenes I've posted. They're fast, fast enough to often match and outmaneuver the men and Elves of Middle Earth, Karl's speed is still decent but there's zilch to take him to the next level.

Just for getting a better glimpse of Aragorn's speed, if you're still not convinced.

• 1:50 - 1:58 - Quite literally kills eight Orcs in 8 seconds, which required killing a couple of them simultaneously in one hit.
• 4:00 - 4:07 - One hit kills two Orcs, and then as soon as he's attacked from behind, he counters it and effortlessly snaps an Orc's neck.

So, they're humiliated in the same fashion that everyone else in Middle Earth humiliates them in?

They can say whatever they want to about the Uruk-Hai, but if they die just as easily as the previous orcs it remains more or less the same. I mean, it's not like they seem to go down difficultly... a lot of the ones I see take one slice and just keel over.

Totally, which is why it requires the main characters, Elves, and Ents (who had to flood Isengard) to completely dispatch them. Obviously, they'll be defeated in a similar to fashion to how the Orcs are, but the difference is it requires stronger forces to thoroughly cleanse them out for the most part. Gimli stated "this is no rabble of mindless orcs, these are Uruk-Hai. Their armor is thick, and their shields broad", and wouldn't simply say it for the sake of nothing.

Which is all the better for Aragorn's case, seeing how easy it was to stomp dozens of them.

Lurtz I will agree was a good opponent, and Jon would be hard-pressed to take him on in a straight-out fight. But then again, Aragorn almost died there as well or could have multiple times.

Jon really wouldn't have a shot in the first place, and sure Aragorn heavily struggled, which is meaningless since Jon will be easier to take care of.

Seriously, Jon is out of his league challenging Aragorn. He has nothing going for him beyond performing well enough against Wildling, Nights Watch fodder and then poorly against opponents with the slightest bit of combat speed, skill uniqueness and strength such as Karl, the White Walker and Styr. Aragorn has picked off foes who'd eat these folk for breakfast with ridiculous ease and thus possesses such an advanced level of battle skill and experience that Jon can't account for (even Aragorn's sword is stronger, lol, and with the backing strength from Aragorn's striking power Jon will be seeing stars after a sword collision). Hell, Jon doesn't even have a lot to suggest he'd have an easy break against an Unsullied or Dothraki Bloodrider in single combat, let alone ascending to the ranks of even Middle Earth's average warriors.

On top of all of this, Aragorn is far more physically robust in all aspects and can outlast Jon's stamina/endurance indefinitely, which is why I can't see Jon prevailing even once. Ghost won't suffice for covering up his disadvantages either since Aragorn has slain bigger and more dangerous creatures in his time. For Jon to even begin thinking about winning he'll have to rely on luck, which is a very limited and unreliable option to say the least.

Your move, matie ;P

Tough call

@pope052: @batmanprep: so did aragorn win?