CAV: NickZ (Sly Cooper) Vs Jashro44 (Daredevil)

Everyone's favorite Thievious Raccoonus is doing what he does best - ripping off some high profile criminal. Today's target: The Notorious Kingpin of Crime.

Daredevil, keeping tabs on his old enemy, senses the intruder and, after briefly contemplating whether Fisk deserved it or not, decided it was his duty to stop the criminal.

Daredevil confronts the thief and, startled by the fact that it's a giant raccoon, gives the cunning thief the chance to escape. Cornering Sly on the roof, a battle commences.

• Current versions of both characters
• Standard gear
• No knowledge
• No interference
• Fight on rooftop at night
• Morals on

@jashro44

Looks good. You can start since my knowledge of sly is limited.

Sly Cooper is a world renowned master thief and descendant of the infamous Cooper Clan, the most well-known lineage of master thieves in history dating back to 10,000 B.C. Over countless millennia, the Cooper Clan has cultivated a countless number of thieving techniques and physical skills that were passed down to each successive heir, with Sly Cooper being a prodigy even among them.

Both of our characters are expert acrobatics known for their speed and stealth. My focus on this debate will be what I believe is Sly's greatest advantage vs Daredevil: damage output. Don't let Sly's scrawny frame fool you, this raccoon is a beast, and equipped with his signature cane he's powerful enough to oneshot rhinos and elephants and shatter solid metal into pieces with only a few wacks.

Sly destroys a brick chimney with his cane and shows off his impressive jumping ability

^^ more jumping, 30+ feet vertically which obviously requires superhuman strength

Tanks getting tossed around by a giant and injures the monster by throwing his cane (said monster was tanking dozens of Carmelita's car-busting shock pistol blasts)

Survives being crushed in said monster's fist for several minutes and even manages to overpower it's finger (a finger might not seem like much, but considering 3:30 I'd say that one finger can easily put out out least a couple tons of force)

Now, I think it's fair to say Sly is a decent bit stronger than Daredevil. All of Daredevil's best physical feats (tossing around the 400 pound weight, the limo flip, etc) are all well within the Cooper's range. Even if you want to argue that, Sly has one advantage over Daredevil that puts things heavily in his favor - the cane. Virtually indestructible and packing quite a wallop, the cane has survived in Sly's family for thousands of years and enhances his striking power to obscene levels.

Shatters an iron grate with one strike

Destroys a metal generator

Easily smashes multiple iron gears (I know these are all in-game, but that doesn't mean they aren't canon. Bentley later congratulates Sly on destroying the generator, and if that's not enough, he is the one who recommends Sly batter his way through the falling gears. Apparently, Sly is so strong that busting metal and steel is quicker than just jumping over it)

Sly also shows off his agility in this clip if you start from the beginning, scaling Clockwerk's death ray with nothing but his cane to aid him while it's sinking in lava.

If you still think those in-game feats are inconsistent, Sly was also capable of beheading Clockwerk, the immortal owl who has plagued the Cooper Clan since the family's very inception and was tanking multiple missiles to the face (this clip also highlights Sly's platforming skills and agility)

Sly has also effortlessly smashed stone and thick wood with his cane, but I didn't think posting such feats were necessary when metal is so much tougher.

Now, Daredevil is a strong guy no doubt about it. However, I have serious doubts that he can withstand more than a handful of wacks from the Cooper Cane without succumbing to a cracked skull (characters within the series make various references to Sly "cracking people's skulls with his cane"). I know he has a few feats here and there of surviving hits from 100 tonners, but street levelers do that all the time and it isn't really consistent. In a street vs street fight, Daredevil gets the wind knocked out of him by peak humans, so a steel-shattering blow to the face is gonna do quite a lot of damage. By comparison, Sly's feats of durability are a lot more consistent with things like 100-ton hits and large explosions, so damage output is a big advantage securely in the raccoon's corner.

(sorry I took so long, don't worry I am 100% committed to this debate, I just didn't get the chance to write up an argument until now)

@nickzambuto:

Sly Cooper is a world renowned master thief and descendant of the infamous Cooper Clan, the most well-known lineage of master thieves in history dating back to 10,000 B.C. Over countless millennia, the Cooper Clan has cultivated a countless number of thieving techniques and physical skills that were passed down to each successive heir, with Sly Cooper being a prodigy even among them.

Both of our characters are expert acrobatics known for their speed and stealth. My focus on this debate will be what I believe is Sly's greatest advantage vs Daredevil: damage output. Don't let Sly's scrawny frame fool you, this raccoon is a beast, and equipped with his signature cane he's powerful enough to oneshot rhinos and elephants and shatter solid metal into pieces with only a few wacks.

Sly destroys a brick chimney with his cane and shows off his impressive jumping ability

^^ more jumping, 30+ feet vertically which obviously requires superhuman strength

Tanks getting tossed around by a giant and injures the monster by throwing his cane (said monster was tanking dozens of Carmelita's car-busting shock pistol blasts)

Survives being crushed in said monster's fist for several minutes and even manages to overpower it's finger (a finger might not seem like much, but considering 3:30 I'd say that one finger can easily put out out least a couple tons of force)

Now, I think it's fair to say Sly is a decent bit stronger than Daredevil. All of Daredevil's best physical feats (tossing around the 400 pound weight, the limo flip, etc) are all well within the Cooper's range. Even if you want to argue that, Sly has one advantage over Daredevil that puts things heavily in his favor - the cane. Virtually indestructible and packing quite a wallop, the cane has survived in Sly's family for thousands of years and enhances his striking power to obscene levels.

Shatters an iron grate with one strike

Destroys a metal generator

Easily smashes multiple iron gears (I know these are all in-game, but that doesn't mean they aren't canon. Bentley later congratulates Sly on destroying the generator, and if that's not enough, he is the one who recommends Sly batter his way through the falling gears. Apparently, Sly is so strong that busting metal and steel is quicker than just jumping over it)

Sly also shows off his agility in this clip if you start from the beginning, scaling Clockwerk's death ray with nothing but his cane to aid him while it's sinking in lava.

If you still think those in-game feats are inconsistent, Sly was also capable of beheading Clockwerk, the immortal owl who has plagued the Cooper Clan since the family's very inception and was tanking multiple missiles to the face (this clip also highlights Sly's platforming skills and agility)

Sly has also effortlessly smashed stone and thick wood with his cane, but I didn't think posting such feats were necessary when metal is so much tougher.

Now, Daredevil is a strong guy no doubt about it. However, I have serious doubts that he can withstand more than a handful of wacks from the Cooper Cane without succumbing to a cracked skull (characters within the series make various references to Sly "cracking people's skulls with his cane"). I know he has a few feats here and there of surviving hits from 100 tonners, but street levelers do that all the time and it isn't really consistent. In a street vs street fight, Daredevil gets the wind knocked out of him by peak humans, so a steel-shattering blow to the face is gonna do quite a lot of damage. By comparison, Sly's feats of durability are a lot more consistent with things like 100-ton hits and large explosions, so damage output is a big advantage securely in the raccoon's corner.

Based off what is shown I do have to agree Sly probably does have the edge when it comes to strikes. I wont really debate durability because it does seem like Slys strikes are very powerful.

However with that said the problem with damage output is that it is only useful if you can connect with your attacks. Out of all the fighters in the marvel universe daredevils speed and reflexes are among the best. He swats bullets with ease, deflects attacks from bullseye (even with a broken arm), and evades lasers.

Gallery

Gallery

In the above scans daredevil shows that even with one arm he is still a match for Bullseye. Daredevil deflects multiple projectiles from bullseye. And Bulleye does have the ability to toss ninja stars at a very fast rate. Here Bullseye tosses about 17 ninja stars at spider-man in basically an instant (I personally count there are 17 ninja stars in the bottom panel). Yes he doesn't tag spider-man but thats because its spider-man who is even faster then daredevil is:

Gallery

You also see that even with one arm daredevil can flip onto the top of a door faster then bullseye can tag him in the second scan as well (which is a pretty nice agility showing for DD).

More speed feats include:

Gallery

Gallery

So unless Sly can match daredevils speed his damage output wont be much help. Is Sly faster then the human eye? Can Sly deflect gun fire the way daredevil can? Can he handle a marksmen of bullseyes level?

All though the next big advantage it seems Sly has is durability. Now Sly has suepioer striking power but that doesn't necessarily mean he deals greater damage then daredevil does. Daredevil is a master with pressure points and they do serious damage if daredevil can connect. Which considering his reflexes and his skill level I believe daredevil can connect:

Gallery

In the above scans daredevil takes out Mr.Hyde with a pressure point. Hyde is a thor villain who IIRC is class 75 (he is the weakest thor villain admittedly....). If daredevil hits sly with this pressure point then Sly will pass out as a result of lack of air.

Gallery

Punisher has some pretty amazing pain tolerance (see his fight with daken) yet daredevil made him feel so much pain to the point that punisher couldn't even focus anymore. He made punisher for all his pain tolerance lose control as well.

I wont disagree that daredevil can't take many hits from Sly however thanks to daredevils suepioer speed and skill Sly is going to find it difficult to tag daredevil in order to win. We have seen daredevil take out strong characters like Hyde with a pressure point which prevented him from breathing, and if for some reason that isn't enough he can cause Sly Immense pain. How much pain is Sly capable of withstanding before he passes out? And will he be able to hold onto his cane (which is what helps give Sly strikes so powerful) if he is hit with that much pain? And what if daredevil took the cane and started to use Slys own cane against him? So even if Sly is still conscious after feeling such pain he could not only get disarmed, but also lose the advantage in striking power if that were to happen (because as you said it is indestructible).

(sorry I took so long, don't worry I am 100% committed to this debate, I just didn't get the chance to write up an argument until now)

Don't worry about it. All though just a heads up but I wont be able to respond from Wednesday until like Saturday because I am going on vacation. Just giving you a heads up now.

@nickzambuto: just reminding you I will be gone for the next 3 days so I won't be able to respond during that time.

No problem. Gives me more time to reply.

@jashro44

As fast and agile as Daredevil is, Sly Cooper has the technique and innate skill to keep up with him move for move thanks to his intense study of the Thievious Raccoonus.

In the above cutscene Sly gives a brief explanation of his past and talks about the Thievious Raccoonus, the ancient book which had catalogued every secret technique of the Cooper clan for thousands of years. Normally, the book is passed down from parent to child, but as Sly explains, he wasn't so lucky. The Fiendish Five, a small group of elite criminals selectively recruited by Clockwerk himself stole the book after murdering Sly's parents. Sly eventually got the book back, fighting for it page by page, and went on to master every single technique presented within it's binds instantly upon reading about them. When it comes to pure maneuvering and versatility, Sly has the edge over Daredevil with such techniques as the ninja spire jump (balancing on sharp points), railwalk and railslide (sprinting and sliding across thin lines), thief reflexes (exactly what it says), and even invisibility. Sly has learned thieving maneuvers from all across history, ranging from tomb raiding Egyptians, to Japanese samurai, to gunslinging western bandits.

Sly's speed, agility, and parkour skills-

I'd like to point out that despite being a very skilled bullet blocker, Daredevil can't really dodge Bullseye when he's serious. Blunt objects sure, but every time Bullseye has bothered to use a firearm, he had no difficulty in tagging Daredevil. The scans you just posted show that actually, as a matter of fact (6th scan from the right). Not to say dodging thrown projectiles from Bullseye isn't impressive, but it's up to argument just how fast those objects are thrown. Bullseye had a bunch in his hand against Spider-Man and threw them all at once; and even still, draw/fire speed =/= the speed with which the projectile actually moves through the air. So I don't think Daredevil's fights with Bullseye actually prove anything against Sly, since IMO his showings against Caremlita Fox prove he could perform just as well.

^^^ All examples of Sly humiliating Inspector Fox and acrobatically avoiding her fire. Now Carmelita isn't quite Bullseye level of marksmanship, but she's still a darn skilled shot, and considering the fact that Sly regularly toys with her for fun (he's allowed himself to get captured on at least three occasions just to mess with her) as opposed to Daredevil struggling against Bullseye, I think it's pretty evened out.

5:50 Carmelita makes an expert precision shot from an incredible distance against a small and quick airborn owlbot.

6:26 Carmelita is literally hundreds of yards away as she covers Sly against a horde of mutants and monsters, her eyes literally zooming in for precision shots (foxes have excellent eyesight so this makes sense)

Additionally Carmelita has soloed entire leagues of mobsters and artificial super soldiers during Sly 3, defeated the monstrous Mutant Primate singlehandedly, and captured every member of the Cooper Gang at least once all on her own - except for Sly himself (not without him wanting to be captured at least). The above clip displays her marksmanship exceptionally well considering the distance she had to cover Sly from (you can see for yourself if you rewind the video a bit), and she is often displayed as a supreme tactician and investigator, eluding the entirety of World Interpol for several months all by herself when framed for a crime, and even getting one over on geniuses such as Dr. M and Bentley a few times. As you can see she is not one to be trifled with. That said, Sly Cooper makes it his job to trifle with her.

As for raw combat speed and dexterity, Sly's artistry in combat is famous and his agility second to none, often baffling foes with his sheer maneuverability. He's known for regularly taking on opponents who greatly outclass him in both size and strength, outfighting enemies such as Raleigh the Frog, Notorious Muggshot, The Contessa, Black Baron, and Dr. M, all of whom had some form of leverage over Sly during their fights. He's incredibly flexible and agile, two things that he makes great use of in and out of combat.

Sly dodges some lasers

0:30 Sly vanishes in a flash of lightning and pulls some impressive disappearing tricks which highlight his stealth + speed

3:40 Sly and his crew vanish from thin air the instant Carmelita and her squad burst in, then at 3:50 he and Murray take down an armed mercenary squadron in seconds without Carmelita even realizing it.

One of Sly's most impressive displays of agility is in his fight against Mz. Ruby, at 2:05 dodging her voodoo blasts while balancing perfectly still on a small surface simply by bending and contorting his body. He does it again at 2:50, but this time he is simultaneously jumping from platform to platform balancing only on narrow points, and at 4:00 he manages to balance while flying on a giant mosquito, still dodging the blasts.

As you can see, the raccoon has plenty of speed and agility to keep up with Mr. Murdock, what with vanishing from thin air and all. Then that leaves the matter of Sly's raw combat finesse with that cane of his: hint hint, it's pretty darn good.

Amazing!!

Kind of a dumb fight, Sly Cooper has a level of toon force that should put him above most human characters.

Tag me for votes. This is an awesome and unique battle and thankfully I know all about both characters. Looks great!

Cool debate.

This is old as hell.

Sly Cooper doesn't have toon force.

@nickzambuto: awww is this over , so sad when old cavs get bumped, this was good.

Tbh I didn't even look at the date lol, thought it was a new thing. XD Still waiting on dat Sly Cooper movie...oh and Ratchet & Clank.

I can not believe they changed Sly's voice actor though. Like, what the hell. What on Earth could their motivation have been? Kevin Miller IS Sly Cooper.

The weird redesigns don't excite me either...

@nickzambuto: I try to go at movies with an open mind...but yeah them things....though I'm just glad were getting more VG movies, there should be more of em out there really.

I say just put that time into making more games :P Not that I didn't enjoy the CGI Resident Evil movies tremendously.

The brief trailer did seem very stylish and it kept the tone of the Sly games well, so I'm a bit skeptical, but not outright hating on it.

You probably don't understand what toon force is or how it works. Dumbass

Well true, games are always good. :P But movies of those games is also good! Well if done right, who knows if Sly n Rachet work out we could always get more later, perhaps a Jax & Daxter one, maybe even Nintendo may try their hand again if they see the success(wishful thinking, but they have some awesome IPs that could make for awesome movies, just don't have them be live action lol.)

They discussed this a bit on AMC Movie Talk. Nintendo has a very tight hand on their franchises, everyone agreed that a Mario movie made in the same vain as the Lego movie would be awesome, but don't hold your breath for Nintendo going for it. Blame the Super Mario movie from so long ago.

I do hope this new trend of video games getting CGI movies takes off. Resident Evil: Damnation is still one of my favorite animated movies. They are great tools for expanding the universe, and it should be easy enough to satisfy fans just by throwing in lots of fan service (not the nudity kind. The "everyone's favorite character kicks some ass" kind).

I very regrettably never played Ratchet and Clank, but here's hoping the Sly Cooper movie is a success.

@nickzambuto: Yeah....damn that live action Super Mario movie! >:( I think Nintendo should try again, movie tech has come a long way(especially animation) to where they could make some pretty nice stuff. I mean they have great IPs to work with, Legend of Zelda, Metroid, Starfox etc which could all work great. But alas...wishful thinking oh well...least we shall get some Sly and Ratchet.