VS
Obviously wait to post your comments until after we call for votes.
Lets get this thing started. As we both know neither of these characters are anywhere near their comic versions, but in the short time they have been around they have improved quite well. For instance, the infamous “miss the rooftop fall into trash” from the beginning of volume 1 is redeemed the minute you open volume 2. In this almost exact panel by panel layout, Bruce succeeds where he failed before.
As I have said before this is an extremely close fight, but Bruce should take the edge for multiple reasons. One thing I hold against Daredevil is his striking power, it generally takes him a whole lot of hits to down his opponents. The same can't be said for Batman, who can drop his opponents in one or two hits and knock out a few teeth while doing so.
Another advantage is Batmans durability, sure Matt was able to fight through pain, but Batman is harder to injure in the first place. Here Batman gets a brick smashed over the back of his head, it knocks him off his feet, but just seconds later he was up, running around, dodging bullets, and giving a group of police officers and security guards hell. Also back to the scene where Batman misses the jump, he falls like three stories face first, with only a couple garbage bags to break his fall, he is hurt, but seemingly not by much, he just walks it off. If Matt missed that jump he'd probably be in a fullbody cast, at the very best.
One, highly debatable, physical stat between our two characters is speed. I know you must be thinking Matt has this in the bag, but I wouldn't be so sure. Matt's and Bruce's ability to avoid gunfire is just by out manuvering their opponent, I'm sure you can agree that neither is truly a bullet timer. That said, they both have excellent dodging feats, Bruce dodging around a small army of cops and security and Matt dodging around that SWAT team.
Gear's one of Bruce's biggest advantages. Matt has a protective suit and two sticks. Bruce has a somewhat protective suit, armored gauntlets, a grapple gun, some razor sharp batarangs, and smoke bombs. Oh and lets not forget his cape, which as you know, is a game changer.
The only advantage Murdock holds is agility, but doing some flips ain't gonna be a game changer.
Probably the most important thing in every fight, and yet another edge that Bruce holds, is tactics. People often remember Earth One Batman for his inexperience, and take that as stupidity, but the truth is he was never that bad and he has only gotten better. Bruce is seemingly thinking all the time and in a variety of ways. Batman uses shadows to terrify his opponents, he's got the reputation that he can travel through darkness. He doesn't wear much body armor because he wants to cast the illusion that he is above it. And above all, he is pretty fast thinking in combat, well get to more to that though.
With a 50 foot starting distance away it gives Bruce several options, stealth (which would prove difficult but not completely ineffective), the chance to grapple to a higher location, and the ability to use his better range equipment. Batman's razor sharp batarangs are gonna be able to penatrate Daredevil's armor. No matter that happens the fight will come down to CQC, cause that just what these characters do. Bruce's bladed gauntlets and batarangs give him the edge in damage output and this is on top of his already superior strength. The fight will be drawn out, but Bruce is walking away the victor here. His greater skill, gear, and tactics, will prove too much for the Devil of Hell's Kitchen to handle.
Can't wait for your reply.
Sorry for the wait. Rewatched a lot of the show and dealt w/ school. Really great first post. I can tell from that first panel that by volume 2, Bruce has substantially improved which is cool!
Matt's biggest advantages in my opinion is his skill, senses, agility and durability. These sort of things will allow him to take a majority in this fight.
As I have said before this is an extremely close fight, but Bruce should take the edge for multiple reasons. One thing I hold against Daredevil is his striking power, it generally takes him a whole lot of hits to down his opponents. The same can't be said for Batman, who can drop his opponents in one or two hits and knock out a few teeth while doing so.
I completely agree that Bruce takes the cake in raw striking power. He definitely gets more bang for his buck when it comes to how much damage one punch does, but this isn't really a huge factor. Matt's always been way more proficient at straight countering his enemies to win, especially in a one on one fight, which is where a lot of his strength is shown.
Hell, in the first episode, you can hear him break bones twice by countering someone's attack. Once at the docks and once against Rance. And even in straight punching, he's not bad. When rescuing Claire, Matt beats several armed men in secession, each one being KO'd in one or two punches.
Another advantage is Batmans durability, sure Matt was able to fight through pain, but Batman is harder to injure in the first place. Here Batman gets a brick smashed over the back of his head, it knocks him off his feet, but just seconds later he was up, running around, dodging bullets, and giving a group of police officers and security guards hell. Also back to the scene where Batman misses the jump, he falls like three stories face first, with only a couple garbage bags to break his fall, he is hurt, but seemingly not by much, he just walks it off. If Matt missed that jump he'd probably be in a fullbody cast, at the very best.
See, here's where I disagree. Bats is by no means not physically tough, but Matt's durability is insane. In episode 2, Matt has broken ribs, stitches, etc. and goes onto do savagely go through the pain and fight to save a kid.
I know it's most people's go to answer for Matt's durability, but it is a good reference.
Also, I wanna bring up the difference in raw pain tolerance. When Bruce falls in the beginning of volume 1, from roughly 3 stories and interrupted the momentum by grabbing an air condition unit, he was too injured to chase after two guys robbing a convenient store. In his fight with Rance, Matt gets tackled out of roughly a three story building, tells himself to get into the game and goes onto to show Rance what's what. Matt consistently has willed through pain of that level and higher.
One, highly debatable, physical stat between our two characters is speed. I know you must be thinking Matt has this in the bag, but I wouldn't be so sure. Matt's and Bruce's ability to avoid gunfire is just by out manuvering their opponent, I'm sure you can agree that neither is truly a bullet timer. That said, they both have excellent dodging feats, Bruce dodging around a small army of cops and security and Matt dodging around that SWAT team.
Oh yeah, I agree that it's sad that some people don't acknowledge that Daredevil can't outright bullet time lmao.
I don't agree that this one is debatable, honestly. Matt's showings here are simply better, unless he has some much better stuff in Volume 2. Even with what I've shown already. In Matt's first shown fight, his speed is crazy. He's able to flip to avoid a gunshot from behind. In the instance w/ Claire, he's constantly at a different spot in the parking garage before the guys can get a steady bead on his location. In episode 7, which video I can't find, he straight deflects an arrow.
Which isn't anything against Bats, he's fine in that aspect, but Matt is definitely superior.
Gear's one of Bruce's biggest advantages. Matt has a protective suit and two sticks. Bruce has a somewhat protective suit, armored gauntlets, a grapple gun, some razor sharp batarangs, and smoke bombs. Oh and lets not forget his cape, which as you know, is a game changer.
I can agree that overall Bruce has more versatility with his gear, Matt's proficiency should keep this aspect roughly even. Matt has shown a lot of skill with sticks, I know I keep referencing the first fight but I will bring up when he ricochets Turk's cattle prod so hard that it knocks him down. There's more instances of this caliber, but I think the point is illustrated well.
I think a huge advantage Matt has is raw skill. Now I presume Bruce has substantially improved with Alfred's training, but nothing in Volume 1 came close to Matt's straight technical sort of proficiency with hand to hand fighting.
Now in Volume 1, Bruce's only one on one fights were between him and Birthday Boy and him and Penguin. The Penguin fight is pretty irrelevant considering Cobblepot just surprised him and stabbed him a bunch. Birthday Boy, regardless of how tough he was shown was more or less a straightforward psychopathic brute.
Daredevil, however, has fought this guy. Healy was shown to be pretty skilled for his limited showing and Matt still outmaneuver and pretty handily took him down.
There's more to be brought up, but I wanted to go ahead and put this out here to really start this off.
Matt's biggest advantages in my opinion is his skill, senses, agility and durability. These sort of things will allow him to take a majority in this fight.
Senses and agility go to Matt, but skill and durability go to Bruce.
I completely agree that Bruce takes the cake in raw striking power. He definitely gets more bang for his buck when it comes to how much damage one punch does, but this isn't really a huge factor.
Matt's always been way more proficient at straight countering his enemies to win, especially in a one on one fight, which is where a lot of his strength is shown.
Hell, in the first episode, you can hear him break bones twice by countering someone's attack.
What? How is greater striking power not going to be a huge factor? Bruce has the ability to land punches on Matt, harder punches then he has ever taken before. The same can't be said for Matt.
Matt is good at using peoples weight and motion against them, but he struggles on people that don't even compare to Batman. For example the first video you linked, there's a solid 10+ seconds of Matt struggling to get a guy to stop grabbing him.
Those times he breaks bones, he drops his opponent, gets in position, and twists as hard as he can. That's not striking power.
See, here's where I disagree. Bats is by no means not physically tough, but Matt's durability is insane. In episode 2, Matt has broken ribs, stitches, etc. and goes onto do savagely go through the pain and fight to save a kid.
Well, first off, we need to show that durability and pain tolerance are not the same thing. Daredevil has better pain tolerance (Not by a whole lot though, I'll get to that next post), I'll give you that, he gets bruised up/cut up and fights on through pure willpower. Batman has better durability, he can take harder hits and be unharmed, where Matt would get seriously hurt. Example, Bruce gets a brick smashed over his head, the brick shatters instead of Bruce's skull, that is durability. If that happened to Matt he'd have a cracked skull and a concussion.
Also, I wanna bring up the difference in raw pain tolerance. When Bruce falls in the beginning of volume 1, from roughly 3 stories and interrupted the momentum by grabbing an air condition unit, he was too injured to chase after two guys robbing a convenient store.
In his fight with Rance, Matt gets tackled out of roughly a three story building, tells himself to get into the game and goes onto to show Rance what's what. Matt consistently has willed through pain of that level and higher.
Yes, he does pull down an air conditioner and gets clipped by a clothes line, but that hardly makes up for the 30 foot face plant. Lets say those two things completely stopped all of his momentum......we are still looking at a ten foot drop on his head. That's insane. Me or you? We'd probably die from a foot drop on the head if we had all our weight behind it like Bruce did. Also Bruce was not too injured to chase after those robbers, he just didn't care. Maybe you didn't remember this, but Earth One Bruce was driven by revenge, he only cared to take down his parents murderer and then he wanted to live a normal life. It wasn't until after the events of volume one that he really became a hero.
That's not really comparable, Matt had several more things to slow his fall then Bruce and Matt landed on his side.
I don't agree that this one is debatable, honestly. Matt's showings here are simply better, unless he has some much better stuff in Volume 2. Even with what I've shown already. In Matt's first shown fight, his speed is crazy. He's able to flip to avoid a gunshot from behind. In the instance w/ Claire, he's constantly at a different spot in the parking garage before the guys can get a steady bead on his location. In episode 7, which video I can't find, he straight deflects an arrow.
1. He dodged a guy who was just knocked down and likely disoriented. 2. Thats more a stealth feat then speed. He was taking out guys one by one then sneaking around behind the next as they panicked. 3. Yeah, Matt does manage to deflect an arrow, but that doesn't give him quite the edge you think.
IMHO, there is 3 separate speeds to consider in a fight. Travel, Reaction, and Combat speed.
Travel speed is how fast a character can run. I feel like Batman running around gunfire from a rooftop filled with cops is faster then anything Matt has shown.
Reaction speed is how fast a character reacts to projectiles, thrown knives, bullets, arrows, ect. Matt has the edge here, him reacting to an arrow is good enough to win this one. But I would not say Bruce is at all slow. Here he dodges a bullet from the Riddler, even though he was initially hunched over.
Combat speed is how fast a character can move in combat, be it avoiding hits or speed blitzing people before they can react. I feel comfortable in saying that Bruce has this one in the bag. Here he is shown blitzing on two different occasions.
Scan 1, he attacks Jacob Weaver at a party. Jacob Weaver was a Gotham Cop for years, then became a private security guard for Penguin, so he is above your average fodder. Batman calls out to him, but before he can to anything, he is face first into a wall. And Batman was able to catch that lighter while it was falling. Scans 2 and 3, Batman is able to throw a batarang into Riddler's wrist, he did this faster then Riddler could press a button, and then close the distance and one shot him. I can't recall Matt blitzing anybody of note.
For all of Matt's superior reaction feats, you have to admit that he gets tagged in combat quite a bit, even by fodder at times. From what I recall right now, Bruce was really only tagged in a combat situation by Alfred, Birthday Boy, and Killer Croc, that's hardly comparable to some of Matt's low showings.
I can agree that overall Bruce has more versatility with his gear, Matt's proficiency should keep this aspect roughly even. Matt has shown a lot of skill with sticks, I know I keep referencing the first fight but I will bring up when he ricochets Turk's cattle prod so hard that it knocks him down. There's more instances of this caliber, but I think the point is illustrated well.
The throwing stick won't be much of a problem for Bruce, he's a harder target then anybody Matt has tagged before, he can react to it based on the fact he blocked a knife from Birthday Boy, and he's too durable for it to have any real affect. Bruce's gear will be harmful to Daredevil though, his smoke bombs could be disorienting, considering you see a woman coughing after he throws them down, his batarangs will cut right through the Matt's suit, and his gauntlet's blades will definitely give Matt some scrapes.
I think a huge advantage Matt has is raw skill. Now I presume Bruce has substantially improved with Alfred's training, but nothing in Volume 1 came close to Matt's straight technical sort of proficiency with hand to hand fighting.
I really don't agree at all. The only argument you could possibly make for saying Matt has better skill is that live action can showcase his moves better. Batman is much more limited on paper cause he can't see the motion of everything, regardless he does show some great skill, kicks to the knee, elbows to the face and back of the head, palm fisting a guys chin into his head, leg sweeps, chokeholds, etc. He's fighting style is very military, which only makes sense considering that Alfred was a Royal Marine.
And speaking of Alfred's training, yes Alfred says Bruce has improved since the Birthday Boy fight.
Now in Volume 1, Bruce's only one on one fights were between him and Birthday Boy and him and Penguin. The Penguin fight is pretty irrelevant considering Cobblepot just surprised him and stabbed him a bunch. Birthday Boy, regardless of how tough he was shown was more or less a straightforward psychopathic brute.
There's also the fact that he beat Alfred, but I won't go into that yet cause its one of Bruce's better feats. Birthday Boy was a brute, but he was not unskilled by any means, he was unbeatable to every one except Batman, that's says something. Just like Alfred, I'll hold back the Birthday Boy fight for now.
Daredevil, however, has fought this guy. Healy was shown to be pretty skilled for his limited showing and Matt still outmaneuver and pretty handily took him down.
That's the big showing of skill that blows Bruce out of the water? Come on man. Healy's big claim to fame was beating up two guys, right? That's not even Detective Gordon level. Gordon finds Bullock in a bar, Bullock has been a drunk since the Birthday Boy incident, so he's not exactly thinking clearly when he picks a fight with a notorious mobster and his goons. Gordon and Bullock (who's still drunk mind you) take down a whole bar full of guys.
Yet, this didn't stop Bruce from one shotting Gordon and breaking his nose.
So to summarize, How is Daredevil beating Healy supposed to show that he beats Batman? It can't when you consider Healy isn't even on par with Gordon, who is nothing to Bruce. Alright man bring out the big guns in your next post, I wanna get this thing really rolling.
I already explained why Matt not having as high of striking power isn't too relevant, his fighting style doesn't rely on it. He rolls with punches and counters, it's how he took down guys like Fisk or heavily armed guys down.
You're gonna have to explain yourself further. He rolls with punches, meaning he gets tagged more often then he should. And counters, how exactly is he countering? With a physical attack? yes, which Bruce can shrug off.
Matt tanked being beaten by Kingpin with a steel pipe.
Taking into account that Kingpin has crushed a human head
He was quite harmed, it wasn't a tank. And what he did take is mostly because of his armor, not his own durability.
In the most unimpressive way to crush a human head ever. He literally slams a guys head 50+ times with a car door. I'm pretty sure an average grown man could pull that off with that many slams.
Unless you're talking about the dock scene, which is still irrelevant. Matt wasn't struggling nor was the guy grabbing him, Matt was grabbing his arms and knocking into him, the dude never was able to attack.
It really doesn't matter if the cannon fodder wasn't able to attack, it's the fact that Matt was tagged in the first place and held on to for so long. Here @ 0:45: Daredevil S01E01 First fight scene - YouTube. A guy gets his hands on Matt, and gives him an extremely hard time to get him off. It makes me think that Bruce can rag doll Matt much like Kingpin manage to.
He's shown to flip people and kick people hard enough to crack a windshield.
Matt hits the dude at the dock's leg to break it.
That would be impressive, if he was cracking a front windshield, but he's not. Rear windshields are not laminated, they are significantly weaker.
He appears to be punching him in the knee, Bruce does the same. It's a weak spot.
If Matt didn't have the suit, I'd be more inclined to agree with you, but even without the suit he's shown durability comparable to Bruce's.
Matt's been hit through chairs, fallen several stores, been stabbed several times over, etc.
Durability and pain tolerance might be different but Matt's combo of the two is enough to make Bruce work for it.
I don't agree, example 3 story fall on head feat.
Yeah, and while he kept trucking in the fight itself (pain tolerance), he usually when home with a limp and then had a doctor tell him what horrible wounds he got.
Birthday Boy has superior pain tolerance and durability to either of our characters, yet Bruce found a way to beat him.
Fair point. Though Matt only hit construction walkways, which are hard and then concrete. Bruce also mostly landed on the trashcans, granted those are soft, but they aren't as hard as concrete.
Mythbusters tested jumping into dumpsters to protect yourself from harm, they came to see that its completely impossible. People don't throw away pillows, they throw away wood and syringes (as seen in the actual scan I posted.) It's pretty fair to say that those garbage bags did nothing.
Not slow, but a LOT slower than Daredevil. Here Matt flips around machine gun fire rather casually a one shots the gunman. Does Bruce have any showings against machine gun fire that he wasn't required to run away from?
No, he does not. But its completely irrelevant in this battle. You know why? Because Daredevil doesn't have a machine gun.
Beyond that, Gotham cops are notoriously corrupt, so it's not like being one is much of a feat.
Umm what? So being corrupt makes you incompetent? Being corrupt somehow takes away from your police training and experiences? That makes no sense, at all. Just because cops look the other way for Penguin, doesn't mean they aren't arresting people on the daily. Gotham is thee most dangerous city in America.
Bruce was like, less than 5 feet from him. I'd also bet that Riddler was a tad too occupied by the fact that a razor was in his wrist to be able to fight back.
How is this any different they the circumstances of this thread? Bruce will throw a batarang at that range at Matt, and Matt will be "a tad to occupied" to fight back when Bruce approaches him.
Does Bruce have any reactions deflecting projectiles or avoiding any gunshots besides by running? Matt does literal flips around gunmen, whereas it seems like Bruce mainly relies on constantly moving which isn't enough to say Matt couldn't tag him.
I already showed him dodge a bullet close range from the Riddler. Besides that, he has blocked a knife strike from Birthday Boy. These lead me to think he is fast enough to avoid Matt's clubs.
Matt's suit was made specifically to help defend him from blades. Fisk suit, made of the same material, blocked a knife from Anatoly. Now, Melvin does say that the the suit can be penetrated by knives at certain angles, but considering Matt's reflexes, pain tolerance and durability, they shouldn't affect him.
Selena Kyle cut her finger just by barely touching a batarang, I think its safe to say they are much sharper then the average knife. Batarangs are not my only argument, but that I think Bruce can soften Matt up before it goes completely melee.
Smoke grenades are also an "eh" sorta effect considering Matt been in infernos and explosions.
The options still there should Bruce need it.
I'm gonna address more of this Nobu fight as well as some other ones I'm saving for when you pull out Bruce's best feats.
Okay, well I'll get to that. But I forgot about Matt blocking Nobu's darts. That makes me think he could block most of Bruce's batarangs, but what if they break his sticks? Then Matt is at even more a disadvantage when the fight goes melee.
Bruce knows how to fight for sure, but nothing he's done remotely compares to Matt doing any of this. I mean everything you're listing, Matt's done. (Also, I think my font suddenly got smaller woah.)
I don't agree, but well get to it. Also, my font randomly changed on me.
Matt fights and KOs 3 cops in less than 30 seconds while handcuffed.
To be fair, those cops are trying to fight him with their hands. Only one fires his gun, and he does it with his hands over his face. WTH is that? Bruce beating up cops, WHILE dodging bullets from several shooters, seems more impressive IMO.
Matt takes down two SWAT team guys after having fallen through the floor several times and being exhausted from finding, taking, carrying and protecting Vladmir. He does it again, in seconds.
Show me a video. Matt punching out SWAT is one thing, Bruce harming Killer Croc is another.
Shows off a bunch of techniques during his fight with Stick. It's notable that Matt was holding back in the beginning, Stick was specifically trying to get Matt to let lose.
Funny how similar that fight is with the Bruce/Alfred fight. Difference is, Alfred actually has feats of his own.
Where was it said that Birthday Boy was unbeatable, out of curiosity, I tried skipping around Earth One and never saw that.
I've only seen Bruce struggle with a serial killer who specifically targeted teen girls.
The fact that Birthday has dozens of his own successful murders, his hitman work under Penguin (He was sent to kill the aforementioned Jacob Weaver), and how he easily dispatched Gordon and Bullock (both were in their primes at the time) makes him pretty unbeatable. Bruce was the one to take him down, that really impressed me.
Also, does Alfred have any feats that say that he's impressive? He's an old man and is clearly skilled, but as of Earth One the only things he does is beat up Bruce and kill Penguin with a shotgun and if his only feat is beating up Bruce, it's pretty hard to gauge.
Yeah, he got more feats in volume 2.
Bullock AND Gordon take down 5-6 guys in a unknowable amount of time. The length of the fight is uncertain. It's a lot easier to fight multiple opponents when you have some back up, and we don't know if the fight took 10 minutes or longer. Healy skillfully took down two dudes in seconds and beat a notorious gangster to death with a bowling ball.
Now you're just downplaying the feat to put it on Healy's level. Gordon was obviously doing most of the work, he was the one saving Bullock's ass. Bullock is a great fighter and has more then a decade of police experience, but him being a drunk was quite a big deal. Even if they were equal, they both beat 3 armed guys, Healy beat 2 unarmed guys.
You want be to bring out the big feats? You got it. By the second volumes end, Earth One is a pretty well established universe.
Harvey Bullock. He was a homicide detective for the Hollywood PD for 9 years. He was also host of the TV show "Hollywood Detectives" in which he would solve cases no one else could. When he first came to Gotham he easily took down one of Penguins muscle.
James Gordon. He was a Gotham police man for 20 years or so. He's gone up the ranks from officer to detective to captain. (Very likely he'll become the commissioner in the next book or two). He has the bar fight feat as I have already shown. He has another feat, though mostly off panel. Riddler locks down the Jail and releases all the inmates, obviously Gordon is probably the target most of them would want to attack. He along with Bullock, Alfred, and Batman were able to put down dozens of thugs. Quite obviously the most amount of work was in this order: Batman, Alfred, Gordon, Bullock.
Alfred Pennyworth. Far from just your typical butler. Alfred was a Royal Marine and an employee for a Private Security Firm. He was able to take on Gordon, Bullock, and a squad of cops.
He was only taken down because Gordon managed to hit him with a taser. Alfred was untouchable in H2H. Given that 3 cops are above 3 thugs, and that Bullock and Gordon together can take down at the very least 6 guys, (with ABCish logic, I know) Alfred is basically showing that he can solo 10 thugs here, that blows Matt's "6 thugs throw him in a dumpster" feat away.
These feats make Bruce beating Alfred incredibly impressive (More impressive then Matt not being able to take out the featless Nobu.) Here is the Bruce/Alfred fight, keep in mind Bruce is already hurt from the rooftop fight mentioned earlier:
They both get their hits in, but Bruce comes out on top and Alfred is clearly impressed.
You ready for this? This is the one that writes Batman beating Daredevil into stone.
Ray Salinger AKA The Birthday Boy. From what I can tell (guess really), he's 7 feet tall and at the very least 400 something pounds of pure muscle. He is a well known serial killer of teenage girls. Still, you do something enough you're gonna get good at it. He was also a hitman for Penguin as I mentioned above.
He doesn't even flinch when Barbara impales him in the leg:
Gordon manages to put a bullet in Ray, yet Ray doesn't even make a sound. He just closes the distance and breaks Gordon's wrist just by grabbing him.
Harvey Bullock tries to help Batman, he doesn't make a sound until he is only feet away and in the air, yet Birthday Boy reacts instantly, dodges the attack, and punches Bullock through the floor.
Lets take a look at the first panel above. Ray is straight up ignoring Bruce's punches like they aren't even there. I've already shown quite a bit of Bruce's striking power. And YOU even said Bruce's striking power was above Matt's.
As you can see Birthday Boy is a straight up beast. Not only are his physicals beyond the Kingpin, he actually has skill as well. Birthday Boy is fast enough to blitz Gordon and Bullock even though his leg is impaled, he is tough enough to not even flinch from a gunshot, and he is durable enough to ignore Bruce's attacks. Despite all this, Bruce is skillful enough to react to and disarm Birthday Boy of his knife, strong enough to temporarily hold him off, and smart enough to find a way to take this inhuman monster down.
To summarize. Bruce's opponents are far better then Matt's and they actually have feats of their own. One shotting Gordon is better then beating Healy with difficulty. Beating down Alfred is better then straight up losing to Nobu. Taking down the Birthday Boy is completely beyond taking down the Kingpin.
Bruce has this fight in the bag.
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