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#1 Edited by lvenger (29505 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge - Cyborg Superman

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vs

@lvenger - Silver Surfer

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Rules

  • @comicstooge is using Pre Flashpoint Cyborg Superman just after he was blown up with the Sinestro Corps battery and remade again. He has 4 Green Lantern rings
  • @lvenger is using Post Annihilation Silver Surfer so the power up and feats from prior and post Annihilation stories can be utilised
  • Morals are off. Both characters are going all out to win and defeat their foe
  • Random Encounter
  • Win by KO/Death/Incapacitation/BFR

Location

Fight takes place on Mars

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#2 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4766 posts) - - Show Bio

Looks awesome!

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#3 Posted by Veshark (9458 posts) - - Show Bio

Ooh, this one should be good. Looking forward to reading both sides.

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#4 Posted by ComicStooge (21882 posts) - - Show Bio

Would you mind going first?

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#5 Posted by lvenger (29505 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge Sure, as long as I have some time to make my first post lol.

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#6 Posted by ComicStooge (21882 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@comicstooge Sure, as long as I have some time to make my first post lol.

Absolutely.

Take as long as you need.

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#7 Posted by dondave (41414 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark said:

Ooh, this one should be good. Looking forward to reading both sides.

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#8 Posted by lvenger (29505 posts) - - Show Bio

OK I'm supposed to start so here it is. Whilst Hank is far from a pushover, I'd say the Surfer definitely has what it takes to take him down. The Power Cosmic grants him a near unlimited range of versatility in his abilities and he's more than capable of taking down Hank as per the conditions of the battle. One advantage Surfer has over Hank is his energy manipulation thanks to the Power Cosmic. He's easily channelled the power of stars before so the yellow star where the fight takes place will be an easy conduit for Surfer's manipulations

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Not to mention that he can easily absorb energy as I shall show with this feat of him absorbing the energy of The Collective, a race made up of aliens whose planets have been destroyed by Galactus and have focused their resources on destroying him and his Heralds

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So those extra Green Lantern rings you asked for are more of a detriment than you realise since all they'll serve to do is increase the amount of energy Surfer can absorb and redirect back at Hank. Another way Surfer can take down Hank is his via matter manipulation. He's effortlessly reduced foes down to atoms

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Or he could manipulate the very fabric of Henshaw's body as he does to Nebula here

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So tell me, how good is Henshaw on being reduced to atoms? Because this seems to be a fine way for the Surfer to defeat Hank as per the conditions of the battle. But what about defense? I think the Surfer may well be suited to taking what Henshaw can throw at him

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Here his forcefields stand up to a Bannerless Hulk who was incredibly powerful without Banner keeping him in check. If his forcefields don't hold up, Surfer can become quite unhittable at all since he can go intangible

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Of course, he's durable enough to tank most of what Henshaw can hit him with as he's tussled with some of Marvel's heaviest hitters such as Thor and Hulk along with cosmic entities of massive power. And Surfer's energy discharges are of massive proportions to boot

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Here it is explicitly said that it was the Surfer's discharge that brought about the black hole. And this is during Annihaltion yes, but it's before his upgrade by Galactus at the end of the story.

All right I think that's enough of an opener. Your move @comicstooge

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#9 Posted by Dratini1331 (7916 posts) - - Show Bio

2 of the best going head to head >.< must bookmark for later!

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#10 Edited by dondave (41414 posts) - - Show Bio

Wonderful opener

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#11 Edited by ComicStooge (21882 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Ugh, my computer is on the fritz. Would you be willing to wait until tomorrow or perhaps the next day for my reply?

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#12 Posted by lvenger (29505 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by ComicStooge (21882 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@comicstooge: Sure thing, take as much time as you need.

Thanks, man. Sorry to keep you waiting.

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#14 Posted by TheIncredibleSuperHulk8642 (3717 posts) - - Show Bio

This looks to be great can't wait.

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#15 Posted by ComicStooge (21882 posts) - - Show Bio

First and foremost, while Surfer does have some very powerful energy manipulation powers, Cyborg Superman can absorb and utilize energy too. He's absorbed the energies of someone as powerful as Ganthet:

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Electric Blue Superman also tried to muck about with Hank's energy. It backfired on him:

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And if you doubt Hank's ability to control energy as powerful as the Cosmic Power, he's manipulated the energy of the Source Wall, so Surfer's power wouldn't be too much:

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CS can counter intangibility by calibrating his beams to hit enemies with intangibility, so that won't be a problem for him:

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Not to mention Hank can modify his own body so his powers don't become reduced when not exposed to yellow sunlight:

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Furthermore, even if Surfer does try to use yellow sunlight against him, this attack will not prove effective. He's survived a blast as hot as the sun with no damage whatsoever, before:

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I don't see how he can matter manipulate Hank. Hank has complete control over his own physiology:

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Cyborg Superman can quite simply change his weaponry to punch through whatever defenses Sufer has, given his adaptability:

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And he and Surfer have fought before:

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And it is canon and part of Henshaw's story:

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So his previous experience with Surfer (despite Surfer's later upgrades, yet Henshaw has improved too) will grant him the edge, in terms of being able to analyse and counter the Surfer's various abilities.

I'll refute the black hole point in my next response, which will be tomorrow. It's late here and I ought to be in bed anyway.

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#16 Posted by lvenger (29505 posts) - - Show Bio

First and foremost, while Surfer does have some very powerful energy manipulation powers, Cyborg Superman can absorb and utilize energy too. He's absorbed the energies of someone as powerful as Ganthet:

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Electric Blue Superman also tried to muck about with Hank's energy. It backfired on him:

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And if you doubt Hank's ability to control energy as powerful as the Cosmic Power, he's manipulated the energy of the Source Wall, so Surfer's power wouldn't be too much:

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Those are some impressive feats for Henshaw that I honestly can't counter. What to do then? Perhaps raise the bar for energy absorption and manipulation? At the end of Annihilation, Surfer controlled the very energies of the Big Crunch itself. It nearly killed him, granted but it shows the very limits of what the Surfer is capable of. And again, this is before Galactus gave him a boost making him more powerful than ever before. It's hard to think of the Surfer being able to manipulate more power than this but thanks to the boost from Galactus, that's just what he can do

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So I'd say that Henshaw's power would be far from out of the Surfer's reach to control too, if not exceeding Henshaw in that department.

CS can counter intangibility by calibrating his beams to hit enemies with intangibility, so that won't be a problem for him:

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Not to mention Hank can modify his own body so his powers don't become reduced when not exposed to yellow sunlight:

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Well there goes my intangible point. Still, I've shown the Surfer is more than durable enough to withstand Henshaw's attacks and his forcefields have stood up to blows from the incredibly strong Bannerless Hulk. Thus, this isn't a total loss. And the Surfer isn't reliant on any star either. His power flows from the Power Cosmic and he can replenish it with light, heat or electromagnetic waves. So the Surfer won't be at a loss for power either.

First and foremost, while Surfer

Furthermore, even if Surfer does try to use yellow sunlight against him, this attack will not prove effective. He's survived a blast as hot as the sun with no damage whatsoever, before:

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I have that in my Hal Jordan folder of feats. So I'm aware of that. Though tell me, will Henshaw be in a good state after Surfer uses a solar system buster attack like he did in his fight with another Herald, Morg during a game of wrestlemania?

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And look how he's barely strained in the course of this attack whilst Morg is down and out. Such an attack is bound to do more than singe Henshaw.

I don't see how he can matter manipulate Hank. Hank has complete control over his own physiology:

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Cyborg Superman can quite simply change his weaponry to punch through whatever defenses Sufer has, given his adaptability:

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I'm still inclined to see the Surfer as capable of disintegrating Henshaw. He's done such a feat many times before

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And, when asserting his Power Cosmic to the max, he controlled the very fabric of an entire planet, resetting its destruction from Galactus. Plants grew again, water sprouted Of course, it must be noted that he went intro overdrive here and caused the planet to evolve millions of years in seconds thus causing its destruction again.

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Such matter manipulation abilities on a planetary scale demonstrate that Surfer's control over matter should be more than sufficient to keep Henshaw from reforming again. And as for adaptability, Surfer can simply draw on more energy to fuel himself thus keeping him in the game from Henshaw's weaponry.

And he and Surfer have fought before:

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And it is canon and part of Henshaw's story:

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So his previous experience with Surfer (despite Surfer's later upgrades, yet Henshaw has improved too) will grant him the edge, in terms of being able to analyse and counter the Surfer's various abilities.

I'll refute the black hole point in my next response, which will be tomorrow. It's late here and I ought to be in bed anyway.

Now this is my biggest problem with your post. Is this really canon? It gets a mention here I'll grant you that but it doesn't play into the grander history of the Pre Flashpoint universe. And the Silver Surfer/Superman crossover was erased by its end so this could be the case too. No matter if it is still canon. Because that means I have access to the feat when Surfer manipulated the entire energies of the Central Oan Power Battery. You do remember that one from the crossover don't you? And how Henshaw was properly killed by the Sinestro Corps Battery along with Warworld detonating in Sinestro Corps War? It did require Warworld's power as well but it's an indication that an exploding Central Power Battery poses a big problem for Henshaw. Thus, Surfer's familiarity with manipulating the energy from Henshaw's rings will make them way more of a liability than an asset. You should have picked Qwardian rings for Henshaw to use because now, the Surfer can use Henshaw's own rings against him. Given that he manipulated the entire battery, I'd say it should be no trouble to manipulate the energy of 4 green rings.

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#17 Edited by ComicStooge (21882 posts) - - Show Bio

OK, in response to the blackhole thing, while Henshaw has been caught in to a blackhole before, he was teleported directly in front of it and pretty much sucked in at point blank range:

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And anyway, he received no visible damage from the experience.

Anyway, Superman, whom Cyborg Superman is physically comparable to due to having his genetic code, has escaped the pull of blackholes too (it's a pretty commonly seen scan - especially to a Superman expert such as yourself, I don't think I need to post it).

So, while Hank could probably escape the blackhole as long he isn't too close, if Surfer can open one up right in front of Hank, he's done for.

I will say though, that is a very big "if". This is due to the fact Surfer could potentially get blitzed before he has a chance to use his more powerful energy blasts.

While Cyborg Superman's speed feats are relatively limited, I do think they're enough to suggest he has superior combat speed to SS:

Cyborg Superman, in one of his first appearance's masquerading as the Man of Steel, superspeeds his way into a government facility:

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Cyborg Superman (in his human form) moves his hands so fast that a group of people watching him were completely incapable of seeing what he was doing:

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Hank used a combination of speed and strength to punch directly through ROD Doomsday. Despite being a clone, this Doomsday seemed to be physically on par with the original:

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In fact, Cyborg Superman was generally able to keep the pace with Doomsday throughout the whole fight. This is quite impressive, given the fact that Superman has to use all his speed just to keep up with the monster. (I could post scans of the entire fight, if you'd like).

While Surfer does have a limited number of impressive reflex feats, the ones I've seen are usually a little dated. His more modern reaction speed isn't up to scratch with Henshaw's:

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And to my knowledge, Surfer has to utilize Hyperspace to go Lightspeed.

And granted, I suppose you could say that Surfer isn't trying to fight, but still, why would he want to get hit? If he's reaction time was particularly impressive, couldn't he have simply gone intangible to avoid most of these attacks or just dodge them?

The speed of a Kryptonian's thought process is usually so quick they can preceve the time between nanoseconds.

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#18 Posted by dondave (41414 posts) - - Show Bio

When does voting start?

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#19 Posted by ComicStooge (21882 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

When does voting start?

Not for a while, I think.

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#20 Posted by Killemall (18928 posts) - - Show Bio

This is the first time i have seen Lvenger debate for Surfer, this should be interesting.

There are a lot more of Surfer abilities that can be brought here.

I am hoping we get to see Surfer reaction feats, there are heaps actually, including in combat feats.

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#21 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (14543 posts) - - Show Bio

this is pretty damn sweet.....I really can't believe this is as even as it is, most would think Surfer wins right off the bat...but this is convincing me of how close it really is

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#22 Posted by Milokill (116 posts) - - Show Bio

My favorite part of this so far is how respectful the two have been to each other.

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#23 Posted by dondave (41414 posts) - - Show Bio

@milokill said:

My favorite part of this so far is how respectful the two have been to each other.

I agree, you rarely see this anymore

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#24 Edited by ComicStooge (21882 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

Those are some impressive feats for Henshaw that I honestly can't counter. What to do then? Perhaps raise the bar for energy absorption and manipulation? At the end of Annihilation, Surfer controlled the very energies of the Big Crunch itself. It nearly killed him, granted but it shows the very limits of what the Surfer is capable of. And again, this is before Galactus gave him a boost making him more powerful than ever before. It's hard to think of the Surfer being able to manipulate more power than this but thanks to the boost from Galactus, that's just what he can do

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So I'd say that Henshaw's power would be far from out of the Surfer's reach to control too, if not exceeding Henshaw in that department.

Honestly, considering they've both manipulated the energies of creation itself (Surfer manipulating the Big Crunch and Hank manipulating the Source Wall), I think it wouldn't be too far fetched to say that they're pretty much in equals from that standpoint.

However, I would like to point out that while Surfer was clearly struggling dealing with that level of power, the Source energy put literally no strain on Henshaw.

Just to give you an idea of the sort of divine "be-all-end-all" sort of power within the Source Wall, after it was destroyed in Gensis, most metahumans started to lose their powers.

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Honestly though, they seem so evenly matched in the whole energy absorption department that it's obvious this fight won't be decided on that.

Well there goes my intangible point. Still, I've shown the Surfer is more than durable enough to withstand Henshaw's attacks and his forcefields have stood up to blows from the incredibly strong Bannerless Hulk. Thus, this isn't a total loss. And the Surfer isn't reliant on any star either. His power flows from the Power Cosmic and he can replenish it with light, heat or electromagnetic waves. So the Surfer won't be at a loss for power either.

While Surfer would defiantly be able to survive Hank's attacks and his shields will stand up to them, they'll certainly hurt him and eventually break through those shields of his.

Henshaw was capable of wrecking Mongul Sr (as in the bigger, meaner version) with a single blast, while only trying to assert his dominance:

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One-shot a pissed off Superman with frightening ease:

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Cyborg Superman (in a body made of children's toys - hardly his strongest form) was capable of blasting Electric Blue Superman with heat vision so much so that he "couldn't handle it":

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His blasts have penetrated through Eradictor's body:

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Not to mention Hank could punch through a construct created by Hal Jordan Parallax:

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Basically, Surfer's shields will only be able to handle so much.

I have that in my Hal Jordan folder of feats. So I'm aware of that. Though tell me, will Henshaw be in a good state after Surfer uses a solar system buster attack like he did in his fight with another Herald, Morg during a game of wrestlemania?

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And look how he's barely strained in the course of this attack whilst Morg is down and out. Such an attack is bound to do more than singe Henshaw.

That's very impressive, though it looks like it was actually the combined blast of both of them together that did that damage and Surfer just did a better job tanking it.

However, I'm just nitpicking. I'll address the feat directly.

Considering Hank remained undamaged from an attack that left Eradicator near dead, his durability isn't exactly low:

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Cyborg Superman tanked a blast from a Guardian, those same Guardians were doing damage to SCW Anti-Monitor:

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Also, when Cyborg Superman was hit with that Galaxy-busting explosion, he made no effort to shield himself, and actually wanted to get hit with it. Despite that, it only really succeeded in KOing him and destroying his body:

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Now, I'm no astronomer, but I'm reasonably certain that galaxies are a great deal larger than solar systems. So it's not hard to believe that Hank can survive a solar system busting attack.

However, you are right in saying that Surfer's attacks would do damage to Hank.

Luckily for him (and not so lucky for Surfer), Henshaw can repair damage done to him.

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I'm still inclined to see the Surfer as capable of disintegrating Henshaw. He's done such a feat many times before

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And, when asserting his Power Cosmic to the max, he controlled the very fabric of an entire planet, resetting its destruction from Galactus. Plants grew again, water sprouted Of course, it must be noted that he went intro overdrive here and caused the planet to evolve millions of years in seconds thus causing its destruction again.

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Such matter manipulation abilities on a planetary scale demonstrate that Surfer's control over matter should be more than sufficient to keep Henshaw from reforming again. And as for adaptability, Surfer can simply draw on more energy to fuel himself thus keeping him in the game from Henshaw's weaponry.

Hank was capable of surviving a hit from the Omega Beams, albeit not quite at full power due to Darkseid recovering from being wounded by Doomsday:

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Later, a fully recovered Darkseid had to resort to transmuting CS, rather then disintegrating him.

I'd say tanking the Omega Beams (even from a weakened Darkseid, who's still a Skyfather level being), is enough to suggest that Surfer won't have such as any easy time using his matter manipulation.

In regards to Surfer just absorbing from multiple forms of energy to keep going while fighting Hank, that will only sustain him for so long. Hank has shown in his fights against Eradicator and Doomsday, that he likes to mix up his close quarter fighting with energy weapon attacks.

In a fisticuffs situation, Surfer is outmatched.

I've already highlighted why I think Hank's reflexes/combat speed is superior to that of Surfer's. In terms of strength, Hank can overpower Superman, crush Mongul Sr's hand and fight evenly with Doomsday.

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Will Surfer really be able to survive getting blitzed, getting his energy drained, being physically beaten and such, all that the same time? Because it is well within Hank's capacity to do all of these things at the time time.

And also, I'm adding these in for good measure, but Hank also has access to these nifty little things called Will Hunters.

They're nanobots that can subdue a target's mind. This isn't standard telepathy as it actually involves little machines mucking about in their target's body.

The ridiculously strong willed Hal Jordan needed Arisia's help to be freed of their control.

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These could very well effect Surfer, given the fact that his silver hide only seems to be being external. He doesn't have internal durability the way Superman or Black Adam does.

I'll respond to your last point tomorrow, but I gotta say, this debate is really fun.

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#25 Posted by lvenger (29505 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: Damn I've missed out on quite the response. Do you mind if I only tackle some of it tonight given that I want to get my response done right?

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#26 Posted by lvenger (29505 posts) - - Show Bio

OK, in response to the blackhole thing, while Henshaw has been caught in to a blackhole before, he was teleported directly in front of it and pretty much sucked in at point blank range:

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And anyway, he received no visible damage from the experience.

Anyway, Superman, whom Cyborg Superman is physically comparable to due to having his genetic code, has escaped the pull of blackholes too (it's a pretty commonly seen scan - especially to a Superman expert such as yourself, I don't think I need to post it).

So, while Hank could probably escape the blackhole as long he isn't too close, if Surfer can open one up right in front of Hank, he's done for.

Well as a Superman expert, I can point out that the scan you're thinking of has some inconsistencies. The instance of Superman surviving in a black hole has been debated as to whether Superman did really survive in a proper black hole. But that's not relevant to our debate. In any case, the Surfer is definitely capable of getting up close to Hank and pulling off that manaeveur pronto if he wanted to do so in the battle. Thus, via the conditions of the battle, Hank would be BFRed and the Surfer would be the winner. But it would be foolish for me to claim it would be that simple.

I will say though, that is a very big "if". This is due to the fact Surfer could potentially get blitzed before he has a chance to use his more powerful energy blasts.

While Cyborg Superman's speed feats are relatively limited, I do think they're enough to suggest he has superior combat speed to SS:

Cyborg Superman, in one of his first appearance's masquerading as the Man of Steel, superspeeds his way into a government facility:

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Cyborg Superman (in his human form) moves his hands so fast that a group of people watching him were completely incapable of seeing what he was doing:

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Hank used a combination of speed and strength to punch directly through ROD Doomsday. Despite being a clone, this Doomsday seemed to be physically on par with the original:

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Nice feats for Hank and forgive the quick analysis but I want to focus more on the other part of your post. Anyway, the first and second set of scans are basically moving faster than the human eye can perceive ones, something Surfer can easily replicate. And the third is a blitz feat, not a speedblitz feat like Superman has been shown to do in combat numerous times.

In fact, Cyborg Superman was generally able to keep the pace with Doomsday throughout the whole fight. This is quite impressive, given the fact that Superman has to use all his speed just to keep up with the monster. (I could post scans of the entire fight, if you'd like).

While Surfer does have a limited number of impressive reflex feats, the ones I've seen are usually a little dated. His more modern reaction speed isn't up to scratch with Henshaw's:

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And to my knowledge, Surfer has to utilize Hyperspace to go Lightspeed.

And granted, I suppose you could say that Surfer isn't trying to fight, but still, why would he want to get hit? If he's reaction time was particularly impressive, couldn't he have simply gone intangible to avoid most of these attacks or just dodge them?

The speed of a Kryptonian's thought process is usually so quick they can preceve the time between nanoseconds.

No need, I've seen multiple scans from Superman's fights with Doomsday not to mention Doomsday's reaction feats too. But allow me to clarify some of the scans you've posted. First, even beings like Superman have been tagged by bricks on occasion. The ones where Surfer gets attacked by Hulk are simple examples of that. Second, with Spider-Man, Spidey was distracting Surfer with his usual smart mouth banter in the course of the fight and the Surfer was responding to that, allowing Spidey to lay a web on him. In short, the plot required Surfer not to use his superior speed and reflexes to take down Spider-Man. Thirdly, Surfer didn't want to fight Rhino at all. He showed total disinterest in fighting Rhino until the fight's conclusion when Surfer basically stopped Rhino's charge and one shotted him. So that scan of yours is defunct against the Surfer's reaction speed. And Thanos is an insanely powerful being who boasts some impressive reaction feats of his own, such as dodging a FTL blitz from the Surfer in Infinity Gauntlet. And he was only using the Power Gem in that fight which, to my knowledge, doesn't boost the wearer's reflexes, only their power. So I don't see why Thanos beating down Surfer is an indication of the Surfer's sub par reflexes.

I'll post some reaction feats for Surfer now. Here's one that'll balance out the Kryptonian nanosecond comment you made.

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And here the Surfer dodges Shiar laser fire with ease. Note the narrator saying how it's child's play for someone used to dodging comets.

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And in his fight with Nova Prime (who had the full power of the Nova Force at the time) Surfer attacked Nova in such a blur that Nova first thought Galactus had hit them with some beam of energy.

Endng of Nova # 13, the Surfer flies towards Nova, and grabs him by the neck.

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First page of Nova # 14, the Surfer throws Nova around.

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On the second page of Nova # 14, the Surfer flew towards Nova, grabbed him, attacked him again, and Nova initially thought he was hit by an energy beam by Galactus.

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I might reply to the rest today or I might save it til tomorrow. I'm sort of tired and had a busy day from volunteering at a collection house so might kick back on the Vine til tomorrow. But I'll definitely have the second post replied to by tomorrow morning.

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#27 Posted by ComicStooge (21882 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@comicstooge: Damn I've missed out on quite the response. Do you mind if I only tackle some of it tonight given that I want to get my response done right?

Go ahead.

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#28 Edited by lvenger (29505 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly, considering they've both manipulated the energies of creation itself (Surfer manipulating the Big Crunch and Hank manipulating the Source Wall), I think it wouldn't be too far fetched to say that they're pretty much in equals from that standpoint.

However, I would like to point out that while Surfer was clearly struggling dealing with that level of power, the Source energy put literally no strain on Henshaw.

Just to give you an idea of the sort of divine "be-all-end-all" sort of power within the Source Wall, after it was destroyed in Gensis, most metahumans started to lose their powers.

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Honestly though, they seem so evenly matched in the whole energy absorption department that it's obvious this fight won't be decided on that.

Since you've given me context on that scan, I figure I should return the favour. The Big Crunch that Surfer drew from was used to power Tenebrous and Aegis, two characters who as you can see from Tenebrous' Comicvine page possessed power at least equal to, if not greater than Galactus. Same applies to Aegis. Yet by channelling the energies of the Big Crunch, Surfer ended up killing two Galactus level beings. Even if he nearly killed himself in the process, I doubt it's anywhere near below Henshaw's manipulation of the Source Wall feat.

While Surfer would defiantly be able to survive Hank's attacks and his shields will stand up to them, they'll certainly hurt him and eventually break through those shields of his.

Henshaw was capable of wrecking Mongul Sr (as in the bigger, meaner version) with a single blast, while only trying to assert his dominance:

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One-shot a pissed off Superman with frightening ease:

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Cyborg Superman (in a body made of children's toys - hardly his strongest form) was capable of blasting Electric Blue Superman with heat vision so much so that he "couldn't handle it":

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His blasts have penetrated through Eradictor's body:

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Not to mention Hank could punch through a construct created by Hal Jordan Parallax:

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Basically, Surfer's shields will only be able to handle so much.

With the first one, Hank handing it to Mongul Sr isn't that impressive given Mongul Sr was beaten by Bryne's Superman (who was significantly weaker than the much later on Pre Flashpoint Superman shown in your scans) along with being one shotted by a pi$$ed off Hal Jordan. So that's not really indicative of Henshaw's power. And Electric Blue Superman wasn't a patch on the much more powerful Superman later on. But the others are solid showings for Henshaw. Of course Surfer's shields will only be able to withstand so much but they can give him a breather or a respite in coming up with his next attack and moments like that can make or break a battle's outcome.

That's very impressive, though it looks like it was actually the combined blast of both of them together that did that damage and Surfer just did a better job tanking it.

However, I'm just nitpicking. I'll address the feat directly.

Considering Hank remained undamaged from an attack that left Eradicator near dead, his durability isn't exactly low:

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Cyborg Superman tanked a blast from a Guardian, those same Guardians were doing damage to SCW Anti-Monitor:

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Also, when Cyborg Superman was hit with that Galaxy-busting explosion, he made no effort to shield himself, and actually wanted to get hit with it. Despite that, it only really succeeded in KOing him and destroying his body:

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Now, I'm no astronomer, but I'm reasonably certain that galaxies are a great deal larger than solar systems. So it's not hard to believe that Hank can survive a solar system busting attack.

Hank tanking a nuclear explosion is fair enough of his durability. But his shielding feats are unclear as to whether he could have survived a solar system/galaxy busting attack. Certainly not the latter and I'm inclined to think the former might prove damaging to Hank too. As for the Guardians' attacks, their attention was divided. 5 of the Guardians were attacking the Anti Monitor and damaging him and only one was blasting Henshaw with another looking on. I doubt you can say that Henshaw would have stood up to a full frontal assault from the Guardians, shielded or not given their impressive capabilities that I hope I don't need to elaborate on.

However, you are right in saying that Surfer's attacks would do damage to Hank.

Luckily for him (and not so lucky for Surfer), Henshaw can repair damage done to him.

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Unfortunately for this point of yours, Surfer has shown healing capabilities with the Power Cosmic

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Note that in the second one, he mentions his powers are not just destructive. It's hardly unreasonable for the Surfer to not cure himself of any wounds the Cyborg may inflict on him. Plus, the nature of his Power Cosmic means that he can absorb any form of available energy or summon energy sources to him. Surfer can refuel himself easily in the fight.

Hank was capable of surviving a hit from the Omega Beams, albeit not quite at full power due to Darkseid recovering from being wounded by Doomsday:

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Later, a fully recovered Darkseid had to resort to transmuting CS, rather then disintegrating him.

I'd say tanking the Omega Beams (even from a weakened Darkseid, who's still a Skyfather level being), is enough to suggest that Surfer won't have such as any easy time using his matter manipulation.

In regards to Surfer just absorbing from multiple forms of energy to keep going while fighting Hank, that will only sustain him for so long. Hank has shown in his fights against Eradicator and Doomsday, that he likes to mix up his close quarter fighting with energy weapon attacks.

You undermine your own point at the start of this post. Darkseid was severely weakened from Doomsday stomping him earlier in the story so wasn't up to full capacity. As for the later feat, Darkseid wanted to use the Cyborg for his own purposes later on so Darkseid never launched a full on blast of Omega Beams to disintegrate Henshaw like he did with Doomsday. All that Henshaw has tanked is the weaker Omega Beams. I could post that scan of Surfer surviving Darkseid's Omega Beams from the Hunger crossover but that's non canon. As for the last part of your post, see my above response.

In a fisticuffs situation, Surfer is outmatched.

I've already highlighted why I think Hank's reflexes/combat speed is superior to that of Surfer's. In terms of strength, Hank can overpower Superman, crush Mongul Sr's hand and fight evenly with Doomsday.

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Will Surfer really be able to survive getting blitzed, getting his energy drained, being physically beaten and such, all that the same time? Because it is well within Hank's capacity to do all of these things at the time time.

Whilst I've countered your assertion that Hank has the better reflexes and combat speed, I can't deny the physical advantage he has over Surfer. Surfer's strength feats are relatively limited and whilst I can point out that he can match Thor, Hulk and many other Marvel powerhouses along with amping his strength with the Power Cosmic, this won't be enough to match Henshaw's obvious physical advantage. Fortunately for me, the Surfer is far more reliant on his speed, reflexes and mastery over the Power Cosmic which, as I have shown, is a tried and tested combat technique of the Surfer's that lets him easily deal with the majority of foes he's faced. Whilst Hank may be trying to blitz him and drain his energy, Surfer will be manipulating his green rings against Hank having the familiarity from their crossover (should have picked Qwardian rings instead man :P) unleashing catastrophic energy blasts and deadly matter manipulating attacks that will keep Hank off balance at all times.

And also, I'm adding these in for good measure, but Hank also has access to these nifty little things called Will Hunters.

They're nanobots that can subdue a target's mind. This isn't standard telepathy as it actually involves little machines mucking about in their target's body.

The ridiculously strong willed Hal Jordan needed Arisia's help to be freed of their control.

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These could very well effect Surfer, given the fact that his silver hide only seems to be being external. He doesn't have internal durability the way Superman or Black Adam does.

I'll respond to your last point tomorrow, but I gotta say, this debate is really fun.

First off, those will hunters affected a Hal who hadn't been possessed by Parallax twice afterwards during Sinestro Corps War and had developed a resistance to possession

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Secondly, the Surfer is practically resistant to mental attacks as shown by this creature's attempt to mindrape him on the astral plane

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And finally, the Surfer has total control over his silver skin so those Will Hunters aren't going to get under his skin so to speak

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Whew, that was long but here's my reply. Looking forward to your response!

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#29 Posted by New_World_Order (14863 posts) - - Show Bio

There are some faults here, but I'll point them out when voting starts. Anyways this is really good, and entertaining! :)

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#30 Posted by lvenger (29505 posts) - - Show Bio

@thundergodswrath: You can PM me my faults now if you want so as not to interfere with the debate.

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#31 Posted by ComicStooge (21882 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: I'm quite busy with school at the moment, but I'll respond to you very soon.

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#32 Edited by russellmania77 (17603 posts) - - Show Bio

this is an awesome CAV,

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#33 Posted by Veshark (9458 posts) - - Show Bio

Fantastic debates from both sides...man my decision just keeps going back and forth, back and forth.

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#34 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (14543 posts) - - Show Bio

this is pretty damn sweet.....I really can't believe this is as even as it is, most would think Surfer wins right off the bat...but this is convincing me of how close it really is

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#35 Posted by lvenger (29505 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: School? Isn't it the summer holidays in whichever country you live in? Or are you at summer school? If it's that one, tough break man. Anyway, that's no problem. Take as much time as you need to make your reply. It makes for a better CAV anyway.

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#36 Posted by ComicStooge (21882 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@comicstooge: School? Isn't it the summer holidays in whichever country you live in? Or are you at summer school? If it's that one, tough break man. Anyway, that's no problem. Take as much time as you need to make your reply. It makes for a better CAV anyway.

In Australia, it's winter.

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#37 Posted by lvenger (29505 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: Of course, opposite seasons and all that. Knew a few Aussie friends here in Britain myself. Anyway, take your time man.

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#38 Edited by ComicStooge (21882 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@comicstooge: Of course, opposite seasons and all that. Knew a few Aussie friends here in Britain myself. Anyway, take your time man.

Thanks.

Honestly, I do have a lot of my plate right now.

At the latest, I'll respond Thursday/Friday. Sorry for the delay.

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#39 Posted by lvenger (29505 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Edited by ComicStooge (21882 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

And it is canon and part of Henshaw's story:

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So his previous experience with Surfer (despite Surfer's later upgrades, yet Henshaw has improved too) will grant him the edge, in terms of being able to analyse and counter the Surfer's various abilities.

I'll refute the black hole point in my next response, which will be tomorrow. It's late here and I ought to be in bed anyway.

Now this is my biggest problem with your post. Is this really canon? It gets a mention here I'll grant you that but it doesn't play into the grander history of the Pre Flashpoint universe. And the Silver Surfer/Superman crossover was erased by its end so this could be the case too. No matter if it is still canon. Because that means I have access to the feat when Surfer manipulated the entire energies of the Central Oan Power Battery. You do remember that one from the crossover don't you? And how Henshaw was properly killed by the Sinestro Corps Battery along with Warworld detonating in Sinestro Corps War? It did require Warworld's power as well but it's an indication that an exploding Central Power Battery poses a big problem for Henshaw. Thus, Surfer's familiarity with manipulating the energy from Henshaw's rings will make them way more of a liability than an asset. You should have picked Qwardian rings for Henshaw to use because now, the Surfer can use Henshaw's own rings against him. Given that he manipulated the entire battery, I'd say it should be no trouble to manipulate the energy of 4 green rings.

I always figured it to be canon, at least for Hank, because it was mentioned again and had an effect on Hank's story.

However, I'll just address it, assuming it is canon and Surfer can manipulate the energies of the entire Green Lantern Battery (that's ridiculously impressive for him, btw), that won't really be a factor here. For one, there won't be anything of that magnitude in the fight. Hank only has access to 4 Lantern rings (while the Central Battery has more than about charge for 7200).

While Sufer can indeed manipulate the energies of Hank's rings, Hank can manipulate them too (and directly from a Guardian of the Universe, no less) and has MUCH greater experience in using the green light of will, I'd say that point it moot. They'd practically be a superconductive loop of Lantern energy, if it really came down to it. That's were superior physicals would come into play (which I believe Henshaw has, but we'll debate that in the other arguments).

Also, Hank has shown capable of disassembling Sinestro Corps rings into his body (Green Lantern rings wouldn't be too much of a stretch), why couldn't he do this and cut the flow of energy Surfer could potentially absorb, if they're that much of a liability?

Anyway, if anyone's having their energies drained, it'd be Surfer.

While Hank's Green Lantern energies could potentially be manipulated (see the above post), the energies involved in the composition of his body cannot be manipulated. The only guy to ever attempt such a thing had the action backfire on him.

Surfer on the other hand, has had his energies drained from him by Doom more than once:

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Doom has a device built into his armor that can actually usurp Surfer of his powers:

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True, while Hank isn't quite Doom's level of intelligence, he has shown the ability to absorb the energy of similar "Sources" (sorry, terrible pun) and his fast speed in terms of analyzing opponents (a combination of his Kryptonian/computer brain) and quick adaptation skills should potentially give him a chance to create a similar device, and pull a classic "Victory Von Doom power drain", on the Surfer.

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#41 Posted by beatboks1 (8650 posts) - - Show Bio

WOW [b]O_o[/b]. my browser has crossed over into the comicvine of the antimatter universe. A universe where lvenger debates for SS against a Superman character

totally rad dudes

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#42 Posted by ComicStooge (21882 posts) - - Show Bio

Holy guacamole this is difficult to counter. I might need some time to formulate effective counter arguments for this, then perhaps we could finally get to voting?

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#43 Posted by lvenger (29505 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: I was going to ask about how many more counter arguments you wanted to do. Given the length of this debate, do you just want to counter my last post then we open the voting? If I come up with another rebuttal to your counter, you may not have the time to reply to it for a while.

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#44 Posted by lvenger (29505 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: Hey I've long since conceded that Surfer can beat Superman for the most part :P

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#45 Posted by ComicStooge (21882 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@comicstooge: I was going to ask about how many more counter arguments you wanted to do. Given the length of this debate, do you just want to counter my last post then we open the voting? If I come up with another rebuttal to your counter, you may not have the time to reply to it for a while.

Good idea.

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#46 Edited by ComicStooge (21882 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

Well as a Superman expert, I can point out that the scan you're thinking of has some inconsistencies. The instance of Superman surviving in a black hole has been debated as to whether Superman did really survive in a proper black hole. But that's not relevant to our debate. In any case, the Surfer is definitely capable of getting up close to Hank and pulling off that manaeveur pronto if he wanted to do so in the battle. Thus, via the conditions of the battle, Hank would be BFRed and the Surfer would be the winner. But it would be foolish for me to claim it would be that simple.

Agreed, given the high pace the fight's sure to be at and the number of factor's involved (CS's comparable speed and ranged attacks against Surfer's), attempting to just open up the blackhole may leave him open to attack. Also, did the blackhole open instantaneously or did it take some time?

@lvenger said:

Hank tanking a nuclear explosion is fair enough of his durability. But his shielding feats are unclear as to whether he could have survived a solar system/galaxy busting attack. Certainly not the latter and I'm inclined to think the former might prove damaging to Hank too. As for the Guardians' attacks, their attention was divided. 5 of the Guardians were attacking the Anti Monitor and damaging him and only one was blasting Henshaw with another looking on. I doubt you can say that Henshaw would have stood up to a full frontal assault from the Guardians, shielded or not given their impressive capabilities that I hope I don't need to elaborate on.

True, Hank doesn't really have the ringslinging feats to suggest he could tank a Solar System busting attack, he is certainly superior with his rings then the likes of Guy Gardner.

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And anyway, I don't think I've ever seen any energy absorber actually absorb the constructs/blasts of a Lantern ring, they've always had to drain the energy directly from the rings or battery. Therefore it's not a total loss if Hank can get a few good blasts in or use a shield or two, before they both start the whole energy absorption thing (from which I don't see there being any clear winner).

And you're correct in saying all the Guardians would destroy Hank (though I don't believe I ever made the claim that he would survive a direct hit from all 5, I probably just wasn't clear enough in my response).

@lvenger said:

@comicstooge said:

Honestly, considering they've both manipulated the energies of creation itself (Surfer manipulating the Big Crunch and Hank manipulating the Source Wall), I think it wouldn't be too far fetched to say that they're pretty much in equals from that standpoint.

However, I would like to point out that while Surfer was clearly struggling dealing with that level of power, the Source energy put literally no strain on Henshaw.

Just to give you an idea of the sort of divine "be-all-end-all" sort of power within the Source Wall, after it was destroyed in Gensis, most metahumans started to lose their powers.

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h
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Honestly though, they seem so evenly matched in the whole energy absorption department that it's obvious this fight won't be decided on that.

Since you've given me context on that scan, I figure I should return the favour. The Big Crunch that Surfer drew from was used to power Tenebrous and Aegis, two characters who as you can see from Tenebrous' Comicvine page possessed power at least equal to, if not greater than Galactus. Same applies to Aegis. Yet by channeling the energies of the Big Crunch, Surfer ended up killing two Galactus level beings. Even if he nearly killed himself in the process, I doubt it's anywhere near below Henshaw's manipulation of the Source Wall feat.

@comicstooge said:

While Surfer would defiantly be able to survive Hank's attacks and his shields will stand up to them, they'll certainly hurt him and eventually break through those shields of his.

Henshaw was capable of wrecking Mongul Sr (as in the bigger, meaner version) with a single blast, while only trying to assert his dominance:

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One-shot a pissed off Superman with frightening ease:

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Cyborg Superman (in a body made of children's toys - hardly his strongest form) was capable of blasting Electric Blue Superman with heat vision so much so that he "couldn't handle it":

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His blasts have penetrated through Eradictor's body:

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Not to mention Hank could punch through a construct created by Hal Jordan Parallax:

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Basically, Surfer's shields will only be able to handle so much.

With the first one, Hank handing it to Mongul Sr isn't that impressive given Mongul Sr was beaten by Bryne's Superman (who was significantly weaker than the much later on Pre Flashpoint Superman shown in your scans) along with being one shotted by a pi$$ed off Hal Jordan. So that's not really indicative of Henshaw's power. And Electric Blue Superman wasn't a patch on the much more powerful Superman later on. But the others are solid showings for Henshaw. Of course Surfer's shields will only be able to withstand so much but they can give him a breather or a respite in coming up with his next attack and moments like that can make or break a battle's outcome.

@comicstooge said:

That's very impressive, though it looks like it was actually the combined blast of both of them together that did that damage and Surfer just did a better job tanking it.

However, I'm just nitpicking. I'll address the feat directly.

Considering Hank remained undamaged from an attack that left Eradicator near dead, his durability isn't exactly low:

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Cyborg Superman tanked a blast from a Guardian, those same Guardians were doing damage to SCW Anti-Monitor:

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Also, when Cyborg Superman was hit with that Galaxy-busting explosion, he made no effort to shield himself, and actually wanted to get hit with it. Despite that, it only really succeeded in KOing him and destroying his body:

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Now, I'm no astronomer, but I'm reasonably certain that galaxies are a great deal larger than solar systems. So it's not hard to believe that Hank can survive a solar system busting attack.

Hank tanking a nuclear explosion is fair enough of his durability. But his shielding feats are unclear as to whether he could have survived a solar system/galaxy busting attack. Certainly not the latter and I'm inclined to think the former might prove damaging to Hank too. As for the Guardians' attacks, their attention was divided. 5 of the Guardians were attacking the Anti Monitor and damaging him and only one was blasting Henshaw with another looking on. I doubt you can say that Henshaw would have stood up to a full frontal assault from the Guardians, shielded or not given their impressive capabilities that I hope I don't need to elaborate on.

@comicstooge said:

However, you are right in saying that Surfer's attacks would do damage to Hank.

Luckily for him (and not so lucky for Surfer), Henshaw can repair damage done to him.

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Unfortunately for this point of yours, Surfer has shown healing capabilities with the Power Cosmic

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Note that in the second one, he mentions his powers are not just destructive. It's hardly unreasonable for the Surfer to not cure himself of any wounds the Cyborg may inflict on him. Plus, the nature of his Power Cosmic means that he can absorb any form of available energy or summon energy sources to him. Surfer can refuel himself easily in the fight.

While Surfer could likely heal himself, it would obviously take him some energy and attention to do so. Any focus he diverts from the fight itself could cost him.

@comicstooge said:

Hank was capable of surviving a hit from the Omega Beams, albeit not quite at full power due to Darkseid recovering from being wounded by Doomsday:

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Later, a fully recovered Darkseid had to resort to transmuting CS, rather then disintegrating him.

I'd say tanking the Omega Beams (even from a weakened Darkseid, who's still a Skyfather level being), is enough to suggest that Surfer won't have such as any easy time using his matter manipulation.

In regards to Surfer just absorbing from multiple forms of energy to keep going while fighting Hank, that will only sustain him for so long. Hank has shown in his fights against Eradicator and Doomsday, that he likes to mix up his close quarter fighting with energy weapon attacks.

You undermine your own point at the start of this post. Darkseid was severely weakened from Doomsday stomping him earlier in the story so wasn't up to full capacity. As for the later feat, Darkseid wanted to use the Cyborg for his own purposes later on so Darkseid never launched a full on blast of Omega Beams to disintegrate Henshaw like he did with Doomsday. All that Henshaw has tanked is the weaker Omega Beams. I could post that scan of Surfer surviving Darkseid's Omega Beams from the Hunger crossover but that's non canon. As for the last part of your post, see my above response.

Darkseid was being healed by a Mother Box at the time, I believe, and those things are known for healing wounds and replenishing stamina/energy/health quite quickly, so it wasn't as if the OBs were at 1% power.

And anyway, even weakened, they were still very powerful, given the fact that Superman, despite not being the target, was staggered and clearly damaged and in pain.

Just to give you an idea of how fast Mother Box's heal the user (and simultaneously show off another energy blast feat for Hank), Superman was up and ready from a blast that floored and damaged him, in mere moments:

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Whilst I've countered your assertion that Hank has the better reflexes and combat speed, I can't deny the physical advantage he has over Surfer. Surfer's strength feats are relatively limited and whilst I can point out that he can match Thor, Hulk and many other Marvel powerhouses along with amping his strength with the Power Cosmic, this won't be enough to match Henshaw's obvious physical advantage. Fortunately for me, the Surfer is far more reliant on his speed, reflexes and mastery over the Power Cosmic which, as I have shown, is a tried and tested combat technique of the Surfer's that lets him easily deal with the majority of foes he's faced. Whilst Hank may be trying to blitz him and drain his energy, Surfer will be manipulating his green rings against Hank having the familiarity from their crossover (should have picked Qwardian rings instead man :P) unleashing catastrophic energy blasts and deadly matter manipulating attacks that will keep Hank off balance at all times.

Ah, I probably should have picked the Qwardian Ring (and probably suggested an area with more tech around), but that's no excuse.

In regards to that last part of that statement, Hank's own energy absorbing, healing ability and durability will compensate for Sufer's potential manipulation of the rings. Not to mention he could use his transmorphing to simply deconstruct the rings inside himself and cut the supply of Green energy.

However, we could go back and forth on this forever and I think it's best if we let the voters decide.

First off, those will hunters affected a Hal who hadn't been possessed by Parallax twice afterwards during Sinestro Corps War and had developed a resistance to possession

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Secondly, the Surfer is practically resistant to mental attacks as shown by this creature's attempt to mindrape him on the astral plane

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And finally, the Surfer has total control over his silver skin so those Will Hunters aren't going to get under his skin so to speak

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Whew, that was long but here's my reply. Looking forward to your response!

Ah, I wasn't sure those Will Hunters would work.

Oh well, it hardly matters, they were only a side point and I was hardly reliant on them being effective for my whole argument to work.

Anyway, I'm ready for votes if you are!

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#47 Posted by lvenger (29505 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: An excellent reply mate! Sorry for replying so late, I've been out volunteering at a manor house today so I was back late. In any case, I agree with the sentiment and shall now edit the thread to indicate that voting is open along with bringing in some voters. This was an excellent debate that I thoroughly enjoyed participating in. Best of luck to you in the votes!

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#48 Posted by lvenger (29505 posts) - - Show Bio
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#49 Posted by dondave (41414 posts) - - Show Bio

You both debated so well that I can't decide who did better. Stalemate

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#50 Edited by Deranged Midget (18346 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh geez eh, give me some to digest this after work and I'll land a vote.