Welcome to the latest CAV. I'm glad I convinced Serrure to take this challenge seeing as he and a few other Viners are feeling especially anti-anime at the moment. Hopefully this warms a few people up to it and this shapes out to be an awesome CAV.
In one corner, from coming from the Big Apple, New York City. He's a member of the notorious Spider Family. Standing at a 5'10 and weighing in at 165 poouundssss!!!
Ben Reilly:
And our challenger, coming all the way from The Hidden Leaf Village, Konoha. This kid is only 13, but don't let the age fool you, he can really pack a punch. Standing at a minute 5'2 and weighing in at 102 pooouuunds!!!!
Rock Lee:
Rules:
Morals On
Lee gets his Nunchucks and Basic Knowledge on Ben
Ben gets Web shooters with 2-4 cartridges (plus the 2 already equiped) and his Spikes
Lee is weights on
Lee gets manga/anime/movie feats
Lee can only open the First Gate
How to be a Courteous Audience:
We know some people are passionate about characters they like but keep comments restricted to appraisal or slight disapproval until voting begins
We don't care what your personal opinion is until Voting Begins, so keep it to yourself
Ask for a Tag
Give Feedback if you can
If something is that important that you cannot wait. Send us a private PM
Hmm interesting Ben is someone I've been interested in for a while but never had a chance to learn about him, and i love Naruto so this is definitely one im gonna follow, T4V!
@hulkage: actually this looks pretty good. i think i can get an intro up
Ben Reilly
There is allot to say about this guy. Hes an exact copy of Peter Parker, and that means the same powers and intelligence. Ben has everything Peter has, which includes Super Strength, Speed, Agility, Spider Sense and more. Not too mention he came up with his own special kind of webs that i'll highlight later on
Point is Ben is awesome and Marvel should have brought him back into the 616 Universe instead of that ugly concotion that is known as Spider-Gwen
Speed
lets be honest this is where Spider characters reside in. They are speed dominant. Ben is Peters Equivalent in this category
Gallery
blah blah hes a casual bullet timer. yadda yadda youre more interested in combat feats
Gallery
heres Ben dancing around Carnage and getting the upper hand
Gallery
Ben also has no problem dancing around Classic Lizard (admittedly Classic Lizard wasnt as Boss as he is now, but he was still above Peter, and therefore Ben, by a fair margin)
given that Ben has shown on several occasions to be Peters every equal he should be able to pull off similar feats.
Durability
I touched on this but during his lizard fight he tanked several blows from Lizard as well full fight down below
Rock Lee is a shinobi (fancy word for ninja) from the popular anime/manga, Naruto. Don't let the word ninja fool you though, even the weakest ninjas have physical attributes comparable to Captain America. Oh and did I mention that they can also do a ton of other things like breathe fire, walk on water, and summon giant two hundred feet amphibians (the last one wasn't a joke). But Rock Lee is a very unique ninja. He can't do things like breathe fire or summon amphibious creatures, he doesn't have any ninjutsu (just the fancy name for all of those abilities), and he can't use genjutsu either (basically a form of telepathy/mindrape). So he had to work at it each day: sweating, crying, and bleeding. And when he finished, long after everyone else had tucked into bed, he would go home, go to sleep, and do it all over again the next morning. He kept at it until he became a master of taijutsu, which is basically H2H combat that utilizes ones chakra (nature and spiritual energy that allows these "ninja" to to extraordinary things) in order to maximize ones speed, agility, durability, and striking. He becomes one of the best H2H combatants in the whole series at the ripe age of 13. In fact in just H2H skill alone, you'll be hard pressed to find anyone from any publishing company that could best him.
Speed:
Most Shinobi are fast (I'll get into more depth later on) but Lee isn't most Shinobi. He's way faster. In his very first story arc he was shown to have at combat/reaction speed at Mach 1 at the very least.
Gallery
Here he moves to fast for these Sound Ninja to keep up with. He is even able to react to and dodge and attack that was stated to be as fast as sound (Mach 1) on panel. Oh and by the way, this is after all of his muscles go torn to shreds due to using the Initial Lotus. Keep in mind that this is Lee at one of his earliest showings.
Durability:
Go view the scene above and you'll see that he is still capable of fighting after all of his muscles are torn to shreds. He already has above peak human durability, but his ability to fight through pain is what makes him so tough to put down. It gets better, but where's the fun in giving everything away all at once?
Striking:
He has great striking feats. I mean he can really pack a punch.
Here we have him sending Kimimaro flying.
Gallery
Well whats so special about Kimimaro?
He could easily no sell a bunch of KNO Naruto clones.
Gallery
Who in turn could do this...
Gallery
Size of Snake:
Strength:
He has superhuman level strength. For example, he constantly wears ankle weights during training, fights and everyday life. That may not sound impressive, until you realize that his weights are this heavy:
Loading Video...
Oh and not to mention the Mach 1 feat you saw earlier was performed with these absurdly heavy weights on.
Nunchucks:
He is very proficient in the use of nunchucks and can connect them to create a staff.
Miscellaneous:
Being a shinobi, Rock Lee can do things like walk on water, walls, ceilings, etc so Spiderman can't use that as an advantage.
This should be enough to give you an idea on who you are dealing with. Cheers.
Hmm interesting Ben is someone I've been interested in for a while but never had a chance to learn about him, and i love Naruto so this is definitely one im gonna follow, T4V!
I might vote on this due to the debaters but I might not due to the characters involved and possibly being offline by the time this debate will finish. I'll see how I go.
ok so Mach 1 is pretty fast, but its only around 1,700 Ft/s, lets go ahead and say Mach 2 is Rock Lee's speed well Mach 2 is only around 2,600 ft/s (these are both from memory so google and see how close i was)
Peter, and therefore Ben, was able to dodge a bullet moving at 4,000 ft/s so that puts this comfortably still in Bens ballpark
not to mention the Spidey Sense he has should put this attribute fairly in Bens area.
Now from this stat really everything branch out
whats that saying "Be sure to hit often and dont get hit" well case in point
Durability
again Rock Lee is durable but he doesnt have the Spiders durability
with these 2 stats its a huger check for Ben but wait there is more
Strength
Again something that Rock lee is very close to but Eddie Brock Venom is no joke i posted how Peter faired against him and Peter has done some ridiculous stuff
Gallery
But Ben does not hold back as often... as seen when Ben sent Eddie flying.
and remember Ben and Peter are effectively the same physically.
Fighting Skills
Im no fool i recognize when Ben is outmatched 100% and he is under this category. but its not gonna be enough. Rock Lee is an exceptional fighter... but Ben has him outmatched in physicals here
When the Fight goes down
Bens gonna try the extreme non-lethal way first with his impact webbing and seeing as hes fast enough to do it and Rock Lee will most likely strike them (which will prove his undoing) instead of completely dodge them (if he can) this could be an effective way to ending the fight... but personally i hope it only semi-works
im looking forward to Ben using his physicals in follow up attacks while Rock Lee is dealing with the impact webbing.
all in all with Bens gear and Physical Superiority Ben should wrap this up nicely
I might vote on this due to the debaters but I might not due to the characters involved and possibly being offline by the time this debate will finish. I'll see how I go.
no one forces you to vote/read this and i understand that both ben and rock lee arent the easiest characters to love (But you better love Ben) so i wont hold it against you
but it does mean allot to me that you would consider it because of me...
ok so Mach 1 is pretty fast, but its only around 1,700 Ft/s, lets go ahead and say Mach 2 is Rock Lee's speed well Mach 2 is onlyaround 2,600 ft/s (these are both from memory so google and see how close i was)
Peter, and therefore Ben, was able to dodge a bullet moving at 4,000 ft/s so that puts this comfortably still in Bens ballpark
not to mention the Spidey Sense he has should put this attribute fairly in Bens area.
Now from this stat really everything branch out
whats that saying "Be sure to hit often and dont get hit" well case in point
See but you missed something. Rock Lee was Mach One AFTER EVERY MUSCLE IN HIS BODY HAD BEEN TORN. I would expect Peter to be able to dodge that bullet because of his Spider Sense, not his actual combat/reaction speeds. And in regards to the Spidey Sense, Rock Lee isn't worried in the slightest. Watch this video of how he handles Sasuke, who has a form of precog on his own. He even explains why precogs are useless against him.
Loading Video...
Here he explains that even though Sasuke has the Sharingan, which grants the user the ability to read his chakra and movements and "know" what the opponent will do before they even do it (precog), it doesn't matter because Sasuke isn't quick enough. And Sasuke is not slow in the slightest bit. Here are some speed feats for Sasuke.
This is the same sasuke who was outpacing Haku. The guy who blitzed 12 people before freefalling water could even change shape.
Gallery
Now the author makes clear to show the same drop of water multiple times in different panels to show no movement. And Haku was fast enough to blitz 12 clones in that miniscule amount of time.
Sasuke was already quicker than Haku without the use of their respective Kekkei Genkai's, which is just a fancy way of saying abilities inherited through lineage. Here is proof that Sasuke was faster.
Gallery
After they used their Kekkei Genkai't (Crystal Ice Mirrors and the Sharingan) Sasuke was her superior in speed once again and was having no trouble moving or reacting to the same dude who just blitz'd 12 people so quickly that it was as if time was standing still.
Durability
again Rock Lee is durable but he doesnt have the Spiders durability
with these 2 stats its a huger check for Ben but wait there is more
I know that Ben holds the slight advantage in blunt force durability. But where Lee lacks in pure durability he makes up for it with Pain Tolerence.
He has kept fighting even though all of his muscles were torn to pieces. He is able to fight through opening the gates, which literally evaportates ones own blood and sweat within the body. His pain tolerance is so high that even when he looses conciousness due to overexertion, his muscle memory and body allowed him to stand upright in a fighting stance. This is while Lee had every bone in his right leg and right arm shattered by Gaara.
Strength
Again something that Rock lee is very close to but Eddie Brock Venom is no joke i posted how Peter faired against him and Peter has done some ridiculous stuff
Gallery
But Ben does not hold back as often... as seen when Ben sent Eddie flying.
and remember Ben and Peter are effectively the same physically.
Yes but I believe striking feats (which are what matter in a fight) lie in Rock Lee's favor. Hell, the fact that he can move above Mach One with ankle weights on that clearly weigh tons should prove his strength.
Fighting Skills
Im no fool i recognize when Ben is outmatched 100% and he is under this category. but its not gonna be enough. Rock Lee is an exceptional fighter... but Ben has him outmatched in physicals here
Good. But my question to you is that if you admit that Lee is much more skilled then how do you think that Ben stands a chance when this fights gets up close and personal, and chances are it will.
When the Fight goes down
Bens gonna try the extreme non-lethal way first with his impact webbing and seeing as hes fast enough to do it and Rock Lee will most likely strike them (which will prove his undoing) instead of completely dodge them (if he can) this could be an effective way to ending the fight... but personally i hope it only semi-works
im looking forward to Ben using his physicals in follow up attacks while Rock Lee is dealing with the impact webbing.
But here's the thing, Rock Lee has never been one to take an attack head on. Dodging and outmaneuvering his opponents is how he likes to fight, even when he was drunk. Lee has enough speed and reaction feats to suggest that without some serious strategy, that the webs wouldn't even touch him. Plenty of people have dodge Peter's (therefore ben's by your logic) webs before so that wont be an issue.
While Lee can always revert to Lotus to pull out the victory...
I might vote on this due to the debaters but I might not due to the characters involved and possibly being offline by the time this debate will finish. I'll see how I go.
no one forces you to vote/read this and i understand that both ben and rock lee arent the easiest characters to love (But you better love Ben) so i wont hold it against you
but it does mean allot to me that you would consider it because of me...
I tend not to get involved with manga debates on here considering that I know little about the genre outside of Studio Ghibli and DBZ. Plus I might actually be offline by the time this debate finishes but I'll see what I think of this CAV.
@hulkage: sorry about the late reply but i was waiting for this whole glitchy thing that CV seems to have to kind of die down a little and it has
Round 2
See but you missed something. Rock Lee was Mach One AFTER EVERY MUSCLE IN HIS BODY HAD BEEN TORN. I would expect Peter to be able to dodge that bullet because of his Spider Sense, not his actual combat/reaction speeds. And in regards to the Spidey Sense, Rock Lee isn't worried in the slightest. Watch this video of how he handles Sasuke, who has a form of precog on his own. He even explains why precogs are useless against him
ok even if Lee moves at Mach 3... shouldnt be that hard to dodge it
Spider Sense isnt Pre-Cog though its like an early warning message. it just warns him of impending danger. what this means is it should negate any speed blitz that lee might try.
his spider sense allows him a warning that Assault Rifles (that he could not see) were going to fire on him. and it allowed him to dodge those bullets... hes an easy bullet timer
After they used their Kekkei Genkai't (Crystal Ice Mirrors and the Sharingan) Sasuke was her superior in speed once again and was having no trouble moving or reacting to the same dude who just blitz'd 12 people so quickly that it was as if time was standing still.
just 12 regular people? Wolverine does that for a living, not to mention X-23 (who is noticeably slower than Wolverine and is therefore much much slower than Ben/Peter)
Gallery
and these guys were armed with advanced gear and equipment
He has kept fighting even though all of his muscles were torn to pieces. He is able to fight through opening the gates, which literally evaportates ones own blood and sweat within the body. His pain tolerance is so high that even when he looses conciousness due to overexertion, his muscle memory and body allowed him to stand upright in a fighting stance. This is while Lee had every bone in his right leg and right arm shattered by Gaara.
Insanely impressive make no mistake thats crazy. but think about this, during his fight with Gara, after Rock Lee opened the first gate and used the Lotus move, he couldn't move for an extended period of time. Gara was toying with him so it allowed him to recover, Ben will not toy with him.
I think opening the first Gate and using the Lotus technique would actually be Lee's death sentence in this fight. Taking punches from Ben Reilly is not something you can afford to do often, especially if you're already hurt
and Ben can tank the lotus technique (assuming it hits him) thats a given even if we only use Ben Reilly feats and forget that anything Peter can do Ben can also (with some exceptions in skill lvl)
Yes but I believe striking feats (which are what matter in a fight) lie in Rock Lee's favor. Hell, the fact that he can move above Mach One with ankle weights on that clearly weigh tons should prove his strength.
no in terms of striking feats i still give this to Ben
Gallery
Tombstone is a guy went toe to toe with Luke Cage strength wise.
if Rock Lee were to hit someone like Tombstone or Luke Cage i cant see him doing anything at and he quite possibly could hurt himself
Good. But my question to you is that if you admit that Lee is much more skilled then how do you think that Ben stands a chance when this fights gets up close and personal, and chances are it will.
when you can move as fast Ben can, and can tank the stuff Ben can then fighting skills arent a huge checkmark here...
and as i said if Rock Lee uses the Lotus technique against Ben it could very well mean the end of him
But here's the thing, Rock Lee has never been one to take an attack head on. Dodging and outmaneuvering his opponents is how he likes to fight, even when he was drunk. Lee has enough speed and reaction feats to suggest that without some serious strategy, that the webs wouldn't even touch him. Plenty of people have dodge Peter's (therefore ben's by your logic) webs before so that wont be an issue.
Its entirely possible to dodge it... but much harder if this gets closer and lets not forget about his stinger
they cause muscular paralysis... sounds painful especially for rock lee... might make it really hard. now he might be able to dodge these from a distance, but up close it would be considerably more difficult close distance (as shown when he tagged Kaine)
While Lee can always revert to Lotus to pull out the victory...
actually as i said the Lotus will likely lead to his defeat and if Ben hits him with a stinger at all it will cause devastating effects for Lee
The Finisher
when you have the durability of Ben you can tank allot... especially Blunt Force
with Bens striking feats, speed and equipment it gives him too many options to beat Lee. Lee only has the option of getting in close which could likely result with him getting tagged with webs or a stinger
@serrure: Sorry for the delay, yesterday was hectic. But lets continue...
Rebuttal
ok even if Lee moves at Mach 3... shouldnt be that hard to dodge it
Spider Sense isnt Pre-Cog though its like an early warning message. it just warns him of impending danger. what this means is it should negate any speed blitz that lee might try.
his spider sense allows him a warning that Assault Rifles (that he could not see) were going to fire on him. and it allowed him to dodge those bullets... hes an easy bullet timer.
Average bullets move faster than Mach 1 yes. But the difference is the distance between the bullets and spiderman, and the sound attacks and Lee. Here in an article that mythbusters wrote they explain the distance and needed reaction time to dodge bullets which should help with any other reaction speed calculation.
BULLETS
The average bullet travels at 2,500 feet per second (around 1,700 mph). If you reacted to the sound of the gun going off and required 0.20 seconds (twice that of the fastest Olympic sprinters) to react, then you would need to be at least 500 feet away to successfully dodge a bullet. The problem is that sound travels at 768 miles per hour (1,126 feet per second)—about half the speed of the bullet. In this case, the bullet would hit you before you even heard the gun fire off.
Using a very simple proportion it can be calculated on exactly how fast Lee's combat/reaction speed is, as well as Ben's. Rock Lee dodged a point blank attack that moved at the speed of sound. So for example, lets say Rock Lee was two feet away (he was probably closer but this is speculative so I'm going to lowball it a little bit).
So first calculate how far away you would have to be to react to sound at a reaction time of 0.2
2500 fps(speed of bullet) = 500ft (distance in order to successfully dodge and react to bullet)
1126 fps(speed of sound)= "x" (distance in order to successfully dodge and react to sound)
Now to do the math...
2500(x) = 1126(500)
2500(x) = 563000
563000/2500 = (x)
x(the distance you would have to be to dodge sound at a reaction time of 0.2) = 225.2
So now all you would have to do is do another proportion to find the reaction time required for 2 feet away.
225.2 feet (distance) = 0.2 (reaction time required)
2 feet (distance) = "x" (reaction time required)
Now to do the math...
225.2(x) = 2(0.2)
225.2(x) = 0.4
0.4/225.2 = (x)
x(the reaction time required to 0.0017761989342806
So Rock Lee, in a fairly weakened state (where all of his muscles were torn), has the ability to react and move in 1 millisecond. Spiderman's feat was impressive (dodging multiple rounds from a gun), but it still isn't AS impressive because of the use of the Spider-sense and the distance difference (alliteration). Although guns are faster, they are only twice as fast, meaning you would have to double the distance required to match the sound. In order to match Lee's feat he would have to be around 4 feet away from the target. Doing just the eye test, you can tell he was farther than that, in another room in fact. I know Spiderman has faster speed feats, but so does Lee.
Note: Some people may not except fan calc's but I wanted to do one anyway just to give people an idea of his speed. If you are into calculations or want to find reaction/combat speeds, this is a really good formula to use. Just do proportions for the speed (lightning, light, etc) and then the reaction time required (milli, micro, nano).
just 12 regular people? Wolverine does that for a living, not to mention X-23 (who is noticeably slower than Wolverine and is therefore much much slower than Ben/Peter)
Gallery
and these guys were armed with advanced gear and equipment
No they were not "just 12 regular people," he blitzed 12 Naruto clones, the guy the series is named after. Naruto, although admittedly not as fast as Sasuke or Lee at the time, was still a respectable amount above peak human in all categories, combat and reaction speed included, so Haku blitzing 12 of him, before free falling water could even change shape or move at all (See X-Men DOFP- Quicksilver), is much more impressive than blitzing "just 12 regular people.
Insanely impressive make no mistake thats crazy. but think about this, during his fight with Gara, after Rock Lee opened the first gate and used the Lotus move, he couldn't move for an extended period of time. Gara was toying with him so it allowed him to recover, Ben will not toy with him.
I think opening the first Gate and using the Lotus technique would actually be Lee's death sentence in this fight. Taking punches from Ben Reilly is not something you can afford to do often, especially if you're already hurt
and Ben can tank the lotus technique (assuming it hits him) thats a given even if we only use Ben Reilly feats and forget that anything Peter can do Ben can also (with some exceptions in skill lvl).
Yes it is true that he was almost incap'd before opening the rest of the gates, but the Lotus is a last resort, oneshot kill technique. Lee had no clue that Gaara had a way around this. His sand shell protects his body from contact should his sand shield fail him, so he switched places with his sand shell while his real body was hiding on the ground the whole time. Ben does not have the same powerset that Gaara has, and if he gets hit with it once then that will spell the end for Ben. Sure it will take much more time getting him into the technique than it was getting Gaara, but if e does then it's game over. The negative effects of the technique wouldn't matter because the fight wouldn't get that far.
no in terms of striking feats i still give this to Ben
Gallery
Tombstone is a guy went toe to toe with Luke Cage strength wise.
if Rock Lee were to hit someone like Tombstone or Luke Cage i cant see him doing anything at and he quite possibly could hurt himself
I don't believe that to be accurate. I am not too familiar with Tombstone (I know the character and some basic things but am not well versed in him or his feats), but I am familiar with Luke Cage. And Kongou would be classified in the same range as Luke Cage. Congou was effortlessly punching through concrete, walls, and pillars, he was even one shotting small ships. He was also tanking hits from a bloodlusted KN0 Naruto (he took a little damage but nothing too considerable) and Lee was able to easily hurt him and put a large crater in the room in which they were fighting in before he opened gates. After he opens gates he stomps him but Gates arent allowed in this fight so ignore the part where his face turns red.
Loading Video...
I think his striking is more than enough to affect Ben. And even the hits that Ben manages to tag Lee with, he is shown to be skilled enough to negate the force of kicks by moving the chakra (think Iron Fist's chi) into his arms.
Gallery
Sasuke was startled that Lee could just take his kick like it was nothing...the same Sasuke whose kick did this that same day...
One shotting massive bear!!! There are allot of giant animals in Naruto.
Its entirely possible to dodge it... but much harder if this gets closer and lets not forget about his stinger
they cause muscular paralysis... sounds painful especially for rock lee... might make it really hard. now he might be able to dodge these from a distance, but up close it would be considerably more difficult close distance (as shown when he tagged Kaine)
As I have shown, Lee has great reaction speeds point blank or not, and lets not forget about his Nunchuck which he can use to defend himself with or attack. Now if he does get hit with the stinger, which he may, I have show Lee fighting with damaged muscles before. Sure it will slow him down, but his pain tolerance is high enough for him to keep fighting. And Ben would have to time it correctly because remember, opening the first gate allows the body to use 100% of its muscle capacity. So there is a pretty good chance that opening the first gate could negate the negative affects of the stinger. So he would have to tag him with it after he opened the first Gate and that would be a very difficult task for Ben.
The Finisher
Ben is fighting on Lee's time here. Lee will go for a quick an easy KO because the longer the battle is drawn on, the more it play's in Ben's favor. Luckily for Lee, he has the skills and moves necessary to beat Ben quickly.
Log in to comment