CAV: Arkham Batman vs Sam Fisher (Open to Votes)

Arkham Batman- Batman3000

VS

Sam Fisher- Bullet_to_the_head

Stipulations

Batman has Arkham City Gear but is in Post-Arkham Knight Mind set

Sam Fisher has a Panther Orientated Loadout from Blacklist.

Both are at their Primes (Age wise)

Sam gets Video Game, Comic, and Novel feats

Batman gets Video Game and Tie-in Comic feats (This means no AoA)

No Knowledge and Morals On

Map: Swiss Embassy from Splinter Cell: Blacklist

Batman comes in through the Skylight, Sam is in the Back Security Room. Both have Vague knowledge of where the other starts (Bruce knows Sam is towards the Back of the Building, Sam knows Bruce is towards the front of the Building) No leaving the Building

@batman3000 Comment if you see this, So I can Open

Nice. T4v.

This is going to be goooood :).

@bullet_to_the_head: I see it.

Tag for votes. This'll be good.

Video game feats? Well then...this is going to be a stomp.

T4V please

T4V

@batman3000: Then let the games begin

This is Sam Fisher, probably America's Best Solider, Scratch that. He is America's Best Solider. Originally the best Navy Seal on the Planet, He is now the leader of the top secret Organization know as 4th Echelon (There was a 3rd Echelon, but Sam kinda killed them, all of them), an Organization so top secret, only the President knows about it (Just like the Aliens and how Jet Fuel can't melt Steel Beams.) Sam has down countless Terriost organizations and infiltrated places that would make Arkham Batman would only dream of. Sam will do what it takes to keep America safe. He'll Break America's Laws to Perserve them, He'll Take a life...to Save a Life.

Strength

Sam is capable of Busting through Multiple Feet of Ice while underwater, granted he did stab it two times, however being underwater makes the feat incredible.

He is also strong enough to hit Gramkos so hard through a Door, it throws him to the opposite of a room and still break the Tiles on the other side, he was also smashing Porcelain as a side effect of Punch Gramkos in the Face, and did so Casually.

And for reference, At an Older Age, he is still able to 1 Shot Highly Trained Soldiers

Speed

Sam is hella fast, one of his thing he is most notable for Gun Blitzing People.

He also has a flat out Bullet Timing Feat

It's also very important to note that he states that part of his training to become a Splinter Cell agent involves learning to bullet time, and in Conviction, Sam was Gun Blitzing other Splinter Cell Agents, who at the very least, were trained to bullet time.

Gear

I could go over some more stats of Sam, but in reality, that's not what's going to give him the wins, what really going to give him the win is his gear.

Now First let's go over what Panther exactly means

Panther means he's going lethal, but staying stealthy.

Now lets go over this gear.

(I didn't include the guns in the above video, as that's not the ones Sam would be using)

You will find the Gear Sam would be using at these times (They aren't Exact, As you can clearly see the Gear there)

• 0:12- Sticky Camera, Sticky EMP, and Tri-Rotor
• 0:34- Smoke, Tear, & Sleeping Gas Grenades
• 0:41- Incendiary Grenade
• 0:43- Proximity Shocker
• 1:07- Integrated Optics
• 1:26- Stealth Nano-Fiber Torso
• 2:29- Deadeye Gloves
• 2:55- Steal Nano-Fiber Pants
• 3:38- Steal Nano-Fiber Bots
• 5:26- SC-IS Pistol
• 7:28- SC-IS Shotgun (SC-IS Sniper Rifle is a possible Alternative)
• 8:04- Crossbow (All Special Ammo)

Why Sam wins

All in All, this match has a simple reason why Sam Wins, Guns.

Arkham Batman isn't a Bullet Timer, he has 1 feat to possibly suggest that he is a bullet timer, but has countless showing to flat out blow that out of the water. Batman himself has said taking on Armed Thugs is suicide, On 3 Separate Occasions

And in Arkham City, When facing Deadshot, if he spot's you, your dead.

Even if you tried to you that single outlier to carry A.Batman into Bullet Timedom, he was only Reacting to a HAND GUN. Sam has a Flat out Shot Gun (And to be honest, it doesn't matter what Primary Gun is being used, All of them are Faster than a Hand Gun rounds)

Sam's Sonar Goggles will let him detect Bruce, as Bruce's stealth is "ok", he'll mark him using the Opsat so he won't loose track of him, and Gun him down with his pistol, and if Batman somehow closes the Distance, the Shotgun will make quick work of him.

The only Possible counter to this Tactic is Batman's Weapons Jammer, but there is issue with that. As shown with Deadshot in Arkham City, Batman can't Jam Custom Weapons, like Floyd's Wrist Guns. Sam's SC-IS Pistol and Shotgun are Custom Made by 4th Echelon's Tech Guru, Charlee. For all intents and Purposes, the Jammer won't Work.

Your Move.

Do you mean Game Play Mechanics? We aren't using that

@nickzambuto Here you Go, My Opener is already up

Nice

@bullet_to_the_head said:

@batman3000: Then let the games begin

OG? Splinter Cell was directly inspired by Metal Gear Solid.

I haven't even read the opener yet, but I cannot let such an unjust statement stand. Sorry lol

@batman3000: Editing Opener, I mentioned a Feat, but forgot to post it, lol

Cool!

@bullet_to_the_head: Just going to keep some notes so that I have a full opinion once voting comes, I'll try not to interfere with the debate. Hope you guys don't mind.

That was a great opener. Quickly summarized Sam's stats right in the beginning just for reference. A lot of people make the mistake in CaVs by basically just writing a respect thread. They just list feat after feat, and while the feats can be impressive, it's more poignant to address the actual battle and describe how those feats relate specifically to the opponent. So you did that well, just gave a very quick and encompassing reference on Sam's physical capabilities and gear for those unfamiliar, then went straight into comparing him with Batman. Post was pretty short but that's not a bad thing, that just means it was straight to the point. I myself have a bad habit of dragging things out and making huge posts to explain one point, so I'll have to take notes from you on how to keep things simple. After the points you made, I am currently siding with Sam Fisher on the fight, but patiently awaiting your opponent's counter.

@nickzambuto: To be honest, There is a feat I forgot to post, Where Sam guns down 16 Splinter Cell Agents, but it's not letting my edit my post (I was all going to take OG out from the picture Caption)

Thank you for that Compliment, seeing your debates, it means alot

@bullet_to_the_head: Might as well save it for your next retort than. You don't want to bust out all of your big guns right in the beginning then get left without a counterargument later on.

It's fine, As long you don't end up with an over 50 comment conversation, xD

@bullet_to_the_head: All good bro. Nice opener :)

The series was created because of Metal Gear Solid. That's the actual definition of being inspired by.

@sanitrize1999: This is a CaV, you aren't allowed to interfere, delete your post now. You're supposed to judge them based off who debated better, let's see if Batman3000 brings up that point on his own.

Tag me!

@darthaznable: So it wasn't inspired by Metal Gear Solid. It was actually inspired by Metal Gear Solid 2. I see.

@darthaznable: @nickzambuto:That mini debate was nice and all, But I would like you to stop now maybe even delete your posts you made regarding it, I would prefer if Our two Openers aren't that far apart or this debate becomes a scroll fest. Cheers

I have some things to say about that post, but I'll wait until voting time. Keep me posted.

Also, I see how mine and nickzambuto influenced how your argument is laid out here :)

Gotcha boss.

What can I say? It's a good argument

and plenty more to come (From my head, not his)

@batman3000: How long in till you think your Opener will be up?

@bullet_to_the_head: Yeah sorry about that. I should be done in 2 days.

@batman3000: K

Dang it! Now I wanna know what he says. Oh well. Let's see if I do mention it.

@bullet_to_the_head Sorry for taking so long. Hope it's worth the wait.

Batman

Bruce Wayne at a young age witnessed the death of his parents Martha and Thomas Wayne. Enraged that his parents had fallen at the hand of criminals he vowed to avenge their deaths by waging a war on all crime. To do this he trained himself to peak of human strength. He has mastered various martial arts and has a genius intellect and due to his wealth and intelligence as well as the help of two allies Luicuis Fox and Alfred he has a wide array of advanced gadgets.

Strength

Contends with Killer Croc and Bane on a regular basis. In one encounter with Croc he kicks Croc hard enough to send him flying. Croc himself is no pushover.

Takes 2 sledgehammer blows like nothing. Yet Bruces attacks hurt him more than this.

Also Bruces attacks are able to block swords suggesting that they're lined with durable plastics which may help pack a bigger punch.

Also defeats Bane on occasion. He himself is also no pushover.

Breaks out of Ivy's plants when Batman couldn't without the help of The Akham Knight.

Durability

Batman gets thrown into a wall by Bane takes a few punches and looks slightly injured.

A very basic one more like a stamina/endurance one but he continuously goes around each night getting beat by criminals sustaining his injuries and then defeating all his villains in ONE NIGHT.

Now other categories are basically covered in counters so I'll leave them out.

Arkham Batman isn't a Bullet Timer, he has 1 feat to possibly suggest that he is a bullet timer, but has countless showing to flat out blow that out of the water. Batman himself has said taking on Armed Thugs is suicide, On 3 Separate Occasions

This is in game mechanics. It's purely to make the game fun. Think of it like this. Batman can bullet dodge. But it's so easy it doesn't prove a challenge which makes the game boring. Alright. Batman can bullet dodge. But this time it's the only thing you can rely on and bullet dodging itself is super hard making the game frustrating. So now we've got our answer. Batman says he can't bullet dodge and we provide gamers with creative ways to do takedowns. Even so it's not 100% impossible. But it's so hard people instead rely on said takedowns. There are also instance in the tie in comics where he bullet dodges.

Also IIRC Bruce does some bullet dodging in AK. Take this with a grain of salt though as I don't remember for sure.

Also keep in mind that characters make baseless statements all the time. There was an instance where Batman threw someone through a missile proof wall. But he doesn't believe it so he thought that the wall wasn't actually missile proof and IIRC didn't even bother to check.

So anyways that covers most of what you said. Here's my strategy.

Sorry it took a while guys.

@batman3000: Literally typing my rebuttal right now, something may come up, and may be posted later today, just know that I saw your reply

@bullet_to_the_head: Cool. Sorry for the long wait.

@batman3000: Yawn....Oh, We're debating now? Well than, let's kick it up a notch.

Takes 2 sledgehammer blows like nothing. Yet Bruces attacks hurt him more than this

What? Croc was clearly getting messed up by those hits. And even still it takes Batman a whole beat down to take down Croc, and we don't even see any Blood Drawn, not even in Arkham Knight (Rated M) where Bruce also had Grayson to help him out (Granted Croc had Mutated sense then, but I don't remember it ever stating he was getting stronger or more durable, just bigger)

Breaks out of Ivy's plants when Batman couldn't without the help of The Akham Knight

I haven't even read that comic and it's clear Bruce was Incapacitated by something, his eyes were winced and he didn't say a word about AK. The fact he doesn't remember him in the game proves this.

But regardless, I don't think Sam is stronger than Bruce, Bruce's feat of cracking Bullet Proof Glass is above what Sam has displayed.

Batman gets thrown into a wall by Bane takes a few punches and looks slightly injured.

Bruce has a great Pain Tolerance, I highly doubt he was only, "Slightly Injured" Mainly consider how Bane was going all out. I mean hell, he got KOed by Harley in Arkham City after getting gased by the Joker (Granted, he was gassed)

This is in game mechanics. It's purely to make the game fun. Think of it like this. Batman can bullet dodge. But it's so easy it doesn't prove a challenge which makes the game boring. Alright. Batman can bullet dodge. But this time it's the only thing you can rely on and bullet dodging itself is super hard making the game frustrating. So now we've got our answer. Batman says he can't bullet dodge and we provide gamers with creative ways to do takedowns. Even so it's not 100% impossible. But it's so hard people instead rely on said takedowns. There are also instance in the tie in comics where he bullet dodges.

There are so many examples however to say that's it not Game Mechanics, mainly because it isn't. Batman said it himself, you can't skip or miss what he says. I can list the Many Examples that say Bruce isn't a Bullet Timer.

He is clearly out running the gunner's aim, not the bullets them self, Impressive, but Aim dodging, not Bullet Timing

As for the Black Mask Scan, that was actually the Scan I was referring to. And once again, that was only a Handgun, not something like Sam's Shotgun.

Also IIRC Bruce does some bullet dodging in AK. Take this with a grain of salt though as I don't remember for sure.

Well....Actually he dodges 2 RPGs, which may seem impressive, it really isn't. Why? Well

1. This was in his Arkham Knight Suit, you know, the one that's supposed to make him Faster
2. He barley got out of the way in time.
3. An Average RPG moves at 377 Feet per Second
4. While Average Bullet travels at 2,500 Feet per Second

The Average Bullet travels at around 6x Faster than a RPG.

Damn, it's almost as if...Bruce isn't a bullet timer. !GASP!

I mean if he struggles to dodge a Slower Projectile while in a Faster suit, how does it make any sense that he dodge a Faster projectile while in a Slower Suit?

So what's going to happen in majority of scenarios Bruce will turn on Detective Mode and will try to isolate exactly where Sam is and will know immediately that Sam has.

See, There is an issue here, and the Capital Point of my Argument. Sam can out Stealth Detective Mode. And even if this blows up in my face (Which it shouldn't) Sam could still E.M.P Bruce, disabling the Mode anyways.

First lets examine the Detective Vision, and what actually makes it up.

In essence, Detective Mode is a form of Sonar Vison (He is a Bat after All) with a few add on.

Here's the thing, Sam has literally out Stealthed people with Sonar Googles before.

This Video flat out says the People Sam had to go through In Conviction had Sonar Goggles, yet he still out Stealthed them.

He's also out Stealthed people with Night Vision Goggles

Oh, You want more? Well in the Online Game Mode: Spies vs Mercs, The Mercs have Access to a Motion detector, giving them a Semi-Accurate Location of Any Spies in front of them, yet the matches are still 50/50, a good showing for the spies stealth, Yet Sam is literally stated to treat them like Children.

Even the Joker in Arkham City manages to sneak up on Bruce and Gas him, Detective Mode didn't help then.

Bruce will bull rush in and when Sam inevitably starts shooting Bruce will outrun the bullets as he does with the helicopter fire in the pic posted above.

He out ran the Aim of Fodder Solider. Sam ain't no Fodder Solider

Sam is shown in the video above to take just as long to aim and fire as his partner Briggs

In the Video Below, Briggs is stated to be able a Lemon at 1000 Yards, a testament to Brigg's Accuracy

And remember, if Bruce get's to close, Sam is whipping out the Shot Gun.

Once he gets the chance he'll throw a batarang most likely trying to lodge it in the barrel and take down Sam with superior strength and skill. (I'll prove the skill part if we're not on the same page.). He will likely use gadgets if he needs to the most likely one would be Electrical charge which would give Bruce the opening he needs to disarm him. Disarming him would be the key. Once done Bruce will take Sam cqc and it'll be all over. You'll need to prove that Sam has skill has the ability to contend when Bruce has taken Ra's Al Ghul in a fast paced battle as well as Deathstroke and taking on multiple trained ninjas at once.

The fact your strategy revolves around Bruce getting close helps proves Sam wins this, as Bruce isn't getting close. Sam could easily dodge any of Bruce's Gadgets, Random Street Thugs can once they get eye's on Batman, so Sam, A bullet Timer, defiantly can. Not only that, Sam's Suit is to a degree, Bullet Proof.

Just a Bruise from a Neigh-Point Blank Gun Shot.

If it does get to h2h, I don't think Sam can win a Skill Contest, He's skilled, but Bruce Is just more skilled, however, Sam's Grenades would put Bruce down once got close a Tear Gas or Sleeping Gas Grenade with mess up Bruce, allowing for Sam to chuck a Incendiray Grenade down and kill Bruce. But it won't come to that. As Bruce isn't getting close enough.

In the End, Bruce can't find Sam or Close the Distance Fast enough before Sam sees him and guns him down, If Bruce does get close, The Shotgun will send Bruce to go see his parents, as even if Bruce is a Bullet Timer, he's only shown Timing Hand Gun round, and a Shot gun has an A-O-E sort of with it's Blast and Bruce ain't dodging that.

He is Splinter Cell

@bullet_to_the_head: Nice I'm working on my rebuttal but of course I'll wait for you to finish. Also how long has Sam been operating? Experience might do Bruce well.

@batman3000: He like 56 I think at the time of Blacklist, but let's save that for the debate.

@bullet_to_the_head: Ok just wanted to know cause I didn't want to see Bruce had the experience advantage 100% without actually knowing if he does.

@batman3000: Post is done all the way

@nickzambuto Second Post is up

@quantum-savage: Delete what you said, this a CAV, a formal debate between me and Batman3000, do not interfere, I can ask a mod to delete what you said if you don't (@jashro44 could you mind keeping an eye on this debate? This is the 3rd person typing up arguments other than me and Batman3000, if you could delete them when you see them, that would be appreciated)

Yawn....Oh, We're debating now?

Yep. Lol.

Well than, let's kick it up a notch.

I concur.

What? Croc was clearly getting messed up by those hits.

After the first one he smiles and says it felt like nothing. I don't think messed up is a phrase you can use here.

And even still it takes Batman a whole beat down to take down Croc, and we don't even see any Blood Drawn, not even in Arkham Knight (Rated M) where Bruce also had Grayson to help him out

There was never any blood drawn in any of the Arkham games. Also Grayson only helps if you choose to use dual play function

(Granted Croc had Mutated sense then, but I don't remember it ever stating he was getting stronger or more durable, just bigger)

I'm pretty sure he got stronger could be wrong though. Here's the DLC walkthrough.

Anyway on top of this he was strong enough to overpower Man-Bat (AK).

I haven't even read that comic

Takes place in Arkham Knight issue 15

and it's clear Bruce was Incapacitated by something,

He was Poison Ivy used pheromones to incapacitate him. But he later woke and this was the point where he could not free himself.

and he didn't say a word about AK. The fact he doesn't remember him in the game proves this.

Not exactly sure what you mean here.

But regardless, I don't think Sam is stronger than Bruce, Bruce's feat of cracking Bullet Proof Glass is above what Sam has displayed.

Well that makes my life easier.

Here's the thing, Sam has literally out Stealthed people with Sonar Googles before.

Okay well any of them Batman level? Any of them have 13 years of experience? (13 years isn't specifically stated in game just using logic to fill in gaps.)

The fact your strategy revolves around Bruce getting close helps proves Sam wins this, as Bruce isn't getting close.

Not exactly true. I was extremely shocked when you said something about Bruce's stealth being okay. What? Sam isn't the only one to avoid sonar/detection devices.

In the game you literally have to avoid this thing and you can with stealth.

Even the Joker in Arkham City manages to sneak up on Bruce and Gas him, Detective Mode didn't help then.

Because he had prior knowledge and had time to prepare. This is obvious as the only thing detected in the room was deceased leading Bruce to think Joker was dead. Joker isn't an idiot.

You're kinda sort of underestimating Bruce in the stealth department.

Skip near the end. He literally disappears from in front of Gordon without making a sound.

highly trained in stealth and espionage tactics is what Hugo notes Batman as. Highly trained ''TIGER" guards specifically trained couldn't detect nor defeat Batman in any instance throughout Arkham City even with the gear Hugo provided them.

He out ran the Aim of Fodder Solider. Sam ain't no Fodder Solider

Again I say they were highly trained. Literally they were trained and given gear to directly combat Batman but could they do it? Nope.

Just a Bruise from a Neigh-Point Blank Gun Shot.

Bruce is able to take multiple shots with his armor too. Even in AC.

Also in comic tie-in he takes rapid fire rubber bullets due to... (refer to last panel...)

Damn, it's almost as if...Bruce isn't a bullet timer. !GASP!

*GASPS!*

@quantum-savage: As mentioned this is a challenge a viner. This isn't an open debate and I ask that you respect the debaters wishes. I'm going to delete your comments for now. If you have any questions feel free to send me a PM.

@bullet_to_the_head Sorry forgot to tag you.