Captain America/Nightwing vs Batman/Bucky

@jashro44: I said it right above you, Batman did beat Slade and it is impressive. But I would NEVER go into a debate like Batman vs Cap or Wolverine or Deadpool and say "Batman beat Slade, therefore he beats them" because honestly, Batman having a poor record against Slade proves nothing and doesn't strengthen my argument. Specially when you hide the details in what happen in that fight to mislead others into thinking Batman just went in there and TRULY defeated Deathstroke like if it took him only 1 try, that not only makes your argument worse but lowers your credibility.

@Dex_Starr

: So you holding Cap using his shield against him? Cap's shield is a part of who he is and his mythos as a character that's like me holding Batman's use of his belt against him,, but okay whatever, with out the use of the shield.

1: He punched Spider-Man and Spider-Man felt it through his armor

2: He shattered a soldiers kevlar mask

3: Using no momentum, or leverage, only leg strength he kicks a super soldier's head into a concrete wall shattering it.

4:He punched Wolverine (who weighs 300lbs with Adamantium) at least 10 feet and through both doors of a car.

5: Cap sends a super kree flying 10+ feet

With the shield Cap's damage output is signifigantly greater.

And yes I know Iron Man's armor was shut down, I am not saying he did or even could beat Iron Man without PIS/WIS, I'm using this as proof of his damage output only.

Lastly I've seen Cap do all the stuff you've stated for Bats kick through steel doors, pucnh through wooden support beams. I would like to see a scan of the RPG-proof glass feat.

@tg1982: You can find all of Batman's high end feats here. He has a good respect blog.

http://batmanfeats.blogspot.com/

@SlimJ87D: thanks, does Cap have one? I haven't been able to find one, that's not out dated with dead end links, and pics that aren't up no more.

Cap/Nightwing all the way. They make Bruce their Batbiotch

@tg1982: He doesn't have one that is as well done. I think he deserves one so he can get a little bit more respect. Maybe we can start a project for people that like Cap and post feats for him. I made a Bucky one if you haven't seen that. It's in the Bucky forum.

@SlimJ87D: we should do that.

@Dex_Starr: Yeah he takes a hit from Spider-man, your point being? Spider-man is nowhere even close to being in the same league as the meta-humans Batman supposedly stands up to i.e Aquman, Flash, etc. When Cap goes up against someone of that level, as with Iron man in Civil War, he get's absolutely demolished as would Batman but PIS saves him every time. The biggest case of this is when he takes hits from a bloodlusted Superman and merely "breaks his ribs"

The purpose I brought up him defeating Shang-Chi is because besides maybe Iron Fist, he's one of the best marital artists in Marvel and he's able to keep up with Spider-man's agility while training him kung-fu during Spider-Island. 

The purpose I brought up him defeating Shang-Chi is because besides maybe Iron Fist, he's one of the best marital artists in Marvel and he's able to keep up with Spider-man's agility while training him kung-fu during Spider-Island.

@Vance Astro said:

@Deranged Midget said:

The purpose I brought up him defeating Shang-Chi is because besides maybe Iron Fist, he's one of the best marital artists in Marvel and he's able to keep up with Spider-man's agility while training him kung-fu during Spider-Island.

Cap has better feats than a spar with Shang Chi and in the running for best fighter in the Marvel Universe the gap between Iron Fist and Shang Chi is quite large.

I'm not saying it's his best feat, simply a feat that shouldn't be ignored and one impressive especially since he lacked his shield.

@Deranged Midget: Vance is just pointing out that Shang Chi is good, but in comparison of the best he's mediocre that's all.

@SlimJ87D said:

@Deranged Midget: Vance is just pointing out that Shang Chi is good, but in comparison of the best he's mediocre that's all.

Indeed, I'm just trying to back up Rogers here considering a user called me out saying that he isn't anywhere close to being on Batman's level, which I found ridiculous.

Indeed, I'm just trying to back up Rogers here considering a user called me out saying that he isn't anywhere close to being on Batman's level, which I found ridiculous.

@Deranged Midget: Here's something to share with everyone. It honestly doesn't have any relevance to this topic since most of these guys don't have too much skill and they didn't have any weapons on them, but a lot of them had 2 to 10 ton strength and durability.

First Steve fought a 5 man gauntlet pretending to be Crossbones and trying to mimic his style. Then he proceeds to KO about 10 to 15 of them before the Falcon swooped in and saved him.

Gallery

@Vance Astro said:

@Deranged Midget said:

Indeed, I'm just trying to back up Rogers here considering a user called me out saying that he isn't anywhere close to being on Batman's level, which I found ridiculous.

I agree with you in the respect.I don't think Batman and Cap are equals as some have stated earlier but I do believe they are very close.To say Cap isn't nowhere near is severely downplaying his skill level.

Exactly, in the same regard, it's hard to differentiate between PIS and actual feats when dealing with Batman i.e taking hits from Superman, tooling Talon after being starved for days and stabbed, etc.

I love cap, bats, bucky and Dick all evenly

so please tell me how does cap beat bats?

cap v bats = bats for win

bucky v dick = bucky

Hardcore cap fans who dont read batman stop trolling!

if anything Cap and Bats are even!

but still bucky stomps! so team 2 wins! :p

@Deranged Midget said:

@Dex_Starr: Yeah he takes a hit from Spider-man, your point being? Spider-man is nowhere even close to being in the same league as the meta-humans Batman supposedly stands up to i.e Aquman, Flash, etc. When Cap goes up against someone of that level, as with Iron man in Civil War, he get's absolutely demolished as would Batman but PIS saves him every time. The biggest case of this is when he takes hits from a bloodlusted Superman and merely "breaks his ribs"

The purpose I brought up him defeating Shang-Chi is because besides maybe Iron Fist, he's one of the best marital artists in Marvel and he's able to keep up with Spider-man's agility while training him kung-fu during Spider-Island.

It doesn't matter, that's like saying taking a hit from Thing is legit but taking a hit from Superman is PIS, both have sufficient strength to kill someone. Spiderman not being as strong as Aquaman is irrelevant because if he isn't holding back he should knock Cap's head off. Cap surviving hits from him is PIS unless Peter is holding back.

Shang isn't one of the best fighters in Marvel, and even if he was a sparring match is hardly proof.

Shang isn't one of the best fighters in Marvel

@tg1982:It may be a part of who Cap is but it's still an unfair advantage against an unarmed opponent

1. He hit Spiderman with his shield in one instance, He punched him in the stomach but we have no idea how durable that suit is either since it only had a limited number of appearances

2. Not impressive.

3. That soldier was charging at Cap, he kicked him but he was also using the soldiers own momentum against him

4. I guess that's an impressive feat, I'll give you that

5. We don't know how durable that Kree is nor how far Cap knocked him back.

@Vance Astro said:

@Dex_Starr said:

Shang isn't one of the best fighters in Marvel

Yes he is.

I consider the best in the top 5

1. He hit Spiderman with his shield in one instance, He punched him in the stomach but we have no idea how durable that suit is either since it only had a limited number of appearances

Cap has some good striking ability, is that what we are discussing?

Spider-man felt that one. And like Vance said, the suit was bullet proof. He feels this one too.

He one shot mad dog who is a 5 tonner (10,000 lbs) class 10, it's not even a full strike as his hands are still holding Mad Dog's arms making the elbow have limited motion: http://phantombunburyist.freedomforceforever.com/cripp12/M-N/tf_tn_maddogback.jpg

He one shots Ram Rod who is a 10 tonner (20,000lbs), and can survive falling form a building into solid concrete head first. His bones are made of steel: http://phantombunburyist.freedomforceforever.com/cripp12/28/th_ramrodback.jpg

I consider the best in the top 5

@Dex_Starr said:

@tg1982:It may be a part of who Cap is but it's still an unfair advantage against an unarmed opponent

1. He hit Spiderman with his shield in one instance, He punched him in the stomach but we have no idea how durable that suit is either since it only had a limited number of appearances

2. Not impressive.

3. That soldier was charging at Cap, he kicked him but he was also using the soldiers own momentum against him

4. I guess that's an impressive feat, I'll give you that

5. We don't know how durable that Kree is nor how far Cap knocked him back.

I respect your opinion regarding Cap's shield, although how many unarmed opponents does he really face that aren't meta human or have some special ability? Also the same could be said for Bat's belt.

In regards to scan number 1, he also punches Spidey in the jaw aswell.

In regards to scan number 2, I think shattering a kevlar mask is very impressive kevlar has a tensile strength to weight ratio 5 times stronger than steel.

@tg1982 said:

@Dex_Starr said:

@tg1982:It may be a part of who Cap is but it's still an unfair advantage against an unarmed opponent

1. He hit Spiderman with his shield in one instance, He punched him in the stomach but we have no idea how durable that suit is either since it only had a limited number of appearances

2. Not impressive.

3. That soldier was charging at Cap, he kicked him but he was also using the soldiers own momentum against him

4. I guess that's an impressive feat, I'll give you that

5. We don't know how durable that Kree is nor how far Cap knocked him back.

I respect your opinion regarding Cap's shield, although how many unarmed opponents does he really face that aren't meta human or have some special ability? Also the same could be said for Bat's belt.

In regards to scan number 1, he also punches Spidey in the jaw aswell.

In regards to scan number 2, I think shattering a kevlar mask is very impressive kevlar has a tensile strength to weight ratio 5 times stronger than steel.

Batman's beaten a lot of characters without using his belt. Cap regularly fights unarmed opponents with his shield. Even in that infamous fight with Crossbones from Streets of Poison, Cap still used his shield both offensively and defensively

@Dex_Starr said:

@Deranged Midget said:

@Dex_Starr: Yeah he takes a hit from Spider-man, your point being? Spider-man is nowhere even close to being in the same league as the meta-humans Batman supposedly stands up to i.e Aquman, Flash, etc. When Cap goes up against someone of that level, as with Iron man in Civil War, he get's absolutely demolished as would Batman but PIS saves him every time. The biggest case of this is when he takes hits from a bloodlusted Superman and merely "breaks his ribs"

The purpose I brought up him defeating Shang-Chi is because besides maybe Iron Fist, he's one of the best marital artists in Marvel and he's able to keep up with Spider-man's agility while training him kung-fu during Spider-Island.

It doesn't matter, that's like saying taking a hit from Thing is legit but taking a hit from Superman is PIS, both have sufficient strength to kill someone. Spiderman not being as strong as Aquaman is irrelevant because if he isn't holding back he should knock Cap's head off. Cap surviving hits from him is PIS unless Peter is holding back.

Shang isn't one of the best fighters in Marvel, and even if he was a sparring match is hardly proof.

Spider-man is constantly holding back, even against his more powerful enemies. It's merely his nature. The rare cases when let's loose are Back in Black, Grim Hunt.

Comparing Thing to Superman is a completely moot point considering the MASSIVE gap of strength between the two as with Aquaman and Spider-man.

I explained this to another user before. If you guys are going to compare durability with street levelers getting hit by heavy hitters. It's not going to go well because you can't gauge how hard the heavy hitter really hit the street leveler or determine how much they were holding back or not. The best way to give a proper analysis is to observe collateral damage. At least we know if someone got punched through a brick wall, then we can estimate the force required to pull off a feat, etc.

I'll give good examples for both Batman and Captain America

Here we know MM hit Bruce hard enough to fly through 2 punching bags and break the chains.

Here in these scans we know Namor slammed and threw Steve hard enough into boulders on the beaches to break apart.

@SlimJ87D: In that vein, here's another example: a future Superman backhands Bruce and sends him flying into the Batmobile.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/10/103201/2269447-64.png

@CitizenBane: Lol, that is crazy. Did that happen in the Batman/Superman crossover?

@SlimJ87D: It's from the first arc of Superman/Batman.

I found this showing in Green Arrow #71, it sort of demonstrates how durable his suit makes him. He tanks a close-range explosion that was powerful enough to hurt Brick (a guy who's shrugged off an RPG in the past).

@CitizenBane: Man, I really don't know to take the Batman/Superman series seriously. I mean Bane should be dead since Batman punched out his spine and other internal organs. Do you go to the Batman Capabilities blog? That is the best respect thread I have ever seen for a super hero.

I don't know if these Batman ones are canon

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batarmor-abbot1.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batarmor-abbot2.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batarmor-abbot3.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batarmor-abbot4.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batarmor-abbot5.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batarmor-desert1.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batarmor-desert2.jpg

I know this is canon though.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/83/ca24015cz1.jpg/

For what it's worth, Marvel just published Avengers: Roll Call, and in that book Cap was ranked at a 3 in strength and durability, and a 6 in fighting skills.

In that same book, they gave Black Widow those exact stats as well. What nonsense.

Just for the fighting skills. Strength seems fine.

@CitizenBane: Yeah, Black Widow is at a 6 while Black Panther is at a 5... Avengers Roll Call huh? I'll have to get some scans from that.

@ReVamp said:

Just for the fighting skills. Strength seems fine.

How is Black Widow as strong as Captain America?

@CitizenBane: Honestly, it's all hype for the movie that's all... Remember they did worse to Spider-man. Boosted him to 25 tons, organic web shooters, psychic link to Spiders, Spider Stingers, spiders, night vision, double his senses with his spider hair, etc.

@SlimJ87D: You can take some arcs of Superman/Batman seriously. Funny enough, yes, it is the Loeb issues mostly as well as the shorter arc /done in 1 ones.

if this is kid bucky than I think cap and nightwing win. just what my mind tells me. I think Nightwing is a more skilled fighter to bucky and cap is equal if not better than bats. that makes me feel that team one wins it.

@rpgr: It's really hard for me to accept some things in that series. I know Batman and Superman already have enough consistent feats for us to go by, but some if not the majority of the feats are ridiculous and the events that happened. Like Bane dying by Superbatman and Grayson getting half his teeth knocked out and being in comatose state.

@CitizenBane said:

@ReVamp said:

Just for the fighting skills. Strength seems fine.

How is Black Widow as strong as Captain America?

IIRC she was supposed to be at 500lbs whilst Cap is at 800lbs.

If being a "3" equates to a strength range between 200-800 lbs, then they're both on the safe side.

@SupremeHyperion: This isn't kid Bucky... It's Bucky Cap.

Good fight. Bruce and Bucky in my opinion

@SlimJ87D: Which was not written by Loeb. As I said, it's weird. Superman/Batman is like the bizzarro world of comic writers. Loeb was actually the defining voice and was good and most of the other writers are bad and not in continuity.

Added bold for emphasis.

As for myself, my first thought is Cap and Nightwing but some of the arguments are good and I'm 50/50 (mostly due to how little I know of Bucky and being informed has changed my opinion)

@Deranged Midget said:

@Dex_Starr said:

@Deranged Midget said:

@Dex_Starr: Yeah he takes a hit from Spider-man, your point being? Spider-man is nowhere even close to being in the same league as the meta-humans Batman supposedly stands up to i.e Aquman, Flash, etc. When Cap goes up against someone of that level, as with Iron man in Civil War, he get's absolutely demolished as would Batman but PIS saves him every time. The biggest case of this is when he takes hits from a bloodlusted Superman and merely "breaks his ribs"

The purpose I brought up him defeating Shang-Chi is because besides maybe Iron Fist, he's one of the best marital artists in Marvel and he's able to keep up with Spider-man's agility while training him kung-fu during Spider-Island.

It doesn't matter, that's like saying taking a hit from Thing is legit but taking a hit from Superman is PIS, both have sufficient strength to kill someone. Spiderman not being as strong as Aquaman is irrelevant because if he isn't holding back he should knock Cap's head off. Cap surviving hits from him is PIS unless Peter is holding back.

Shang isn't one of the best fighters in Marvel, and even if he was a sparring match is hardly proof.

Spider-man is constantly holding back, even against his more powerful enemies. It's merely his nature. The rare cases when let's loose are Back in Black, Grim Hunt.

Comparing Thing to Superman is a completely moot point considering the MASSIVE gap of strength between the two as with Aquaman and Spider-man.

Then why mention Spiderman at all? You brought him up because you said that Cap fights characters that physically outclass him. [Even though Batman does this regularly]

If you're trying to justify it by saying Spiderman holds back that pretty much kills the entire purpose of telling me that Cap can fight Spiderman.

What really surprises me is that nobody is making a case for Nightwing.

@tg1982 said:

What really surprises me is that nobody is making a case for Nightwing.

I love Nightwing, I really do but he can't beat anyone here. Batman has already tooled him, so has Bane. He can probably hold his own for a while but will eventually go down.

@Dex_Starr: Agreed, but I would of thought some fans would at least try to make an arguement.

@tg1982: Yeahhhh... but that's not being a fan, that's just being a fan boy. I think every single one of us is a nightwing fan here. Revamp being one of the biggest ones. We had a discussion on what Nightwing could do, but he just doesn't have answers to Bucky's arm and everyone knows how Batman vs NIghtwing will turn out.