Captain America vs Malcolm Merlyn

CW merlyn

MCU cap

standard gear

morals on

Cap can beat everyone from the Arrowverse. Merlyn would give him a good fight though.

Ra's or Merlyn? Or was it intentional?

Cap destroys

Come on man.

Cap ez

Cap one-shots.

I think CW deathstroke on mirakuru is debatable. I give cap and edge over Ra's but that could be arguable as well since Ra's uses a sword. I think Oliver as Al-sah-him could win due to smoke bombs. Not sure if Oliver is going to be carrying flash bang arrows as standard gear but if he does or something similar to a smoke bomb I think Oliver can beat Steve by blinding him and than shooting Steve while he is blind.

All though Malcom will lose here for sure since he did struggle with a mirakuru soldier who is less skilled than cap. Not sure if its a total mismatch though. Malcom did get hit by an explosive arrow that he caught so he is pretty tough, and cap has been challenged by human combatants before. I'd say Malcom can do better than batroc before going down at least.

Malcolm Merlyn beat a mirakuru soldier and is a lot smarter, more tactical, and skilled than Cap, as well as having top class stealth. Depending on the battle location he can easily win with stealth, but if its out in the open he would lose. He's not getting stomped though.

Cap

Using evidence, convince me on how Malcolm is smarter, more tactical and more skilled than Cap. And do not say "malcolm beat arrow, who beat nyssa, who is obviously skilled therefor..." because those arguments hold zero water, and are devoid of logic.

Steve wins easily. He far outclasses Merlyn physically in every way. I could list several examples of his speed, strength and durability but I don’t think anybody would argue that Merlyn is physically superior.

In terms of skill Cap’s feats in Winter Soldier and AOU should put him above Merlyn.

Steve murks. Malcolm isn't beating him at range with regular arrows, and there's no way he beats Steve up close.

I've always argued that Mirakuru users like Slade and Grundy are not simple super soldiers like Captain America, or even comic book Deathstroke are. Rather they are full-blown superhumans in all physical areas including speed, and outclass MCU Captain America by a significant margin. Going by consistent feats, I would say most Mirakuru users are 10 tonners.

Evidence: In his introduction, the very first thing that Solomon Grundy does is smash down a gigantic warehouse hangar door with his bare hands. The door is later confirmed to be expanded-reinforced titanium, and Grundy's strength is compared to a crane or a forklift. It's a fact that it takes something like 30 tons of pressure per square inch in order to dent steel, and titanium is very similar to steel. Immediately after this Grundy is able to casually rip up an industrial centrifuge from the ground and carry it out of the warehouse over one shoulder like it's nothing. I've seen other users cite such a machine as weighing as much as 6 tons.

Later on during his warehouse fight with Oliver, Grundy is able to send large shipping crates rocketing towards Oliver like a projectile. Unquantifiable, but if the crate was full then that's another 2-3 tons Grundy can handle as if nothing.

The best feat of a Mirakuru user is when Roy ripped his hand straight through a bomb-blast container without even putting much effort into it. Back in season 1 Oliver used an explosive arrow to blow open a steel door; in season 2 he fired two explosive arrows at the bomb blast container and did not leave a scratch. Container >>> steel. Yet whereas the explosive arrows could not leave a scratch, Roy does far more, in that he actually rips the container open. Therefore Roy's strength >>> >>> steel.

In an earlier scene when Roy was still trying to understand his powers, he dove in front of Moira in order to rescue her from a falling light fixture after an explosion. Roy intended to sacrifice himself, but the fixture (easily 2 tons) just crashes onto his back without making him budge. He opens his eyes and is visibly confused, then slowly stands up straight and just drops the fixture aside as if he could barely even feel it.

Other Mirakuru feats include: pushing a car down the road fast enough to outrace a speeding van, crumbling a VERY thick concrete block like mere tissue paper, blowing up Oliver's muai thai dummy with a casual blow.

Even Slade, who had the worst feats out of all Mirakuru users was still killing trained soldiers with one blow on a regular basis.

Speed is also an important factor. Not only do Mirakuru users outclass Captain America, but they also outclass Merlyn and Oliver themselves. Slade was able to move at speeds too fast for the human eye to perceive, and even though his training likely had something to do with that, Grundy was still speedblitzing security guards/cops, and each of his blows would audibly slice through the air like a torpedo. That's clear superhuman speed.

So my point: Merlyn struggling with a Mirakuru user less skilled than Cap in H2H does not imply he would be unable to beat Cap, because the Mirakuru users are also significantly more powerful than Cap. People just see the Mirakuru users sending men flying with their strikes and instantly assume they must be on par with Captain America, since they do the same thing, but if people look just a bit deeper into their feats I guarantee most will find that Mirakuru users are actually incredibly powerful. I know @rbt will back me up on this. @al_sah_him too, but I haven't seen him active lately. I really don't think Captain America could replicate a single feat mentioned above, besides blowing up the dummy.

Why?

@rbt: Even if you don't believe Steve is fast enough to dodge the arrow, he's more than fast enough to aim dodge/block with his shield by the time he gets to Malcolm, since they start close.

He's not.

he's more than fast enough to aim dodge/block with his shield by the time he gets to Malcolm, since they start close.

If Steve gets close, then he should be able to take majority. But you made it sound like Malcolm cannot take him down from range as well. He very well can. He is pretty good at stealth. And Cap isn't getting up after an arrow through his skull or heart.

@sachmoo: Malcolm Merlyn was a successful business man, who was able to hide from the league of assassins for an extended period of time, concocted a five year plan to destroy half of Starling City that was successful and then faked his own death, as well as figuring out oliver is the arrow and taking him down despite Oliver being younger and faster. He played oliver like a fool for all of season 1. Malcolm was also able to stomp the hell out oliver which took tactics as well. He also showed off his skill in using mind games with team arrow throughout season 3. Cap has nothing at all that's even comparable. He has no special feats of intelligence.

How is this even close??? he has his shield,, merlyn isn't tagging him.. He wouldn't tag him without his shield but that's a whole different conversation... Skill is on cap's side too.. He beat batroc(yes featless), winter soldier,red skull, cross bones with a dozen other armed guards. Merylin is a test for most of the mcu human characters but not cap...

Once they engage in H2H, I give Cap a 7/10 win over M&M. His skills aren't as good as M&M, but his strength and durability give him a DECENT advantage. Not only that, but the shield can be used in CQC, whereas the arrows are not.

With stealth and/or range, M&M could win. Steve still had some OP shield feats, but without PIS, I give M&M the advantage here. 8/10

but yet a starter hero beat him even with all of that planning... Cap is a leader not a prepper. When it comes to battle planning meryln isn't cap.. He led the armed forces and the avengers in attacks...

If they start visible , Cap beats him to death .
If they can't see each other , Cap won't see a thing until he gets a sword through his chest .
Straight H2H must go to Merlyn , the guy already showed he can beat meta-humans , he's highly skilled in martial arts .

Malcolm was also able to stomp the hell out oliver which took tactics as well. He also showed off his skill in using mind games with team arrow throughout season 3

The first one would be attributed to skill. The second one would be attributed to either Smarts or tactics.

Ok, so your telling me Merlyn is smarter than Cap outside of combat, that's fine. The only stuff that is even applicable to this, or any battle forum fight for that matter, is underlined.

But just for shits and Giggles: Cap was orchestrating actual war planning and tactics in Cap 1.

In avengers he deduced Shield was using the tesseract to make weapons. He then exhibited what is the very definition of tactics, putting The avengers in place to use their abilities the best. He then made on the fly tactics, while under duress in telling the police what to do.

In Cap 2 he gameplanned a successful mission in overtaking a rebel ship, filled with men w/ guns. Oh and by the way, he used actual stealth to infiltrate the ship. He even had to evolve the plan, as widow went MIA.He deduced... Nevermind I can go on forever in Smarts, and tactics in Cap 2.

Point is, "Cap has nothing at all that's even comparable. He has no special feats of intelligence" is an absolute abomination of a statement.

Steve

I am not saying that he will surely defeat Cap. Especially under this setting(starts close). I was replying to Storm's point that Malcolm can't take down Steve from range either. Which he can. Malcolm is master at stealth and a pretty good archer. He can put an arrow in Steve if he maintains his distance. Cap would take him down in h2h.

And btw, Malcolm is more skilled.

Pretty good archer? Merlyn outclassed Ollie fair and square in their first duel. When fighting Nyssa he fired three arrows simultaneously with such pinpoint precision that they all pinned Nyssa to the wall by different points on her clothing, without touching her skin. This is doubly impressive skill considering Nyssa can effortlessly react to the speed of arrows. Malcolm is more like a phenomenal archer.

@rbt: what does stealth have to do with it tho? If he has his shield and he knows he is in fight then no meryln can't hit him. He can sucker arrow him maybe but even that is debatable.

Malcolm

@nickzambuto: again none of that means he could hit cap. He could not and neither could Ollie for that matter. As long as he has his shield there isn't anything the archers could do

He is phenomenal archer. But he doesn't need to be to tag Cap. Anyway, I didn't remember Malcolm pinning Nyssa feat. Thanks.

What? Just because he has his shield doesn't mean Cap is blocking anything anyone throws at him. He has never blocked anything by reacting to it. He aim blocks bullets. And most of the time, fodders aim for his shield. Something tell me that Malcolm won't be aiming for his shield.

what does stealth have to do with it tho? I

This is what stealth has do with this fight.

And that was Oliver he sneaked up upon. A guy who can do this-

@rbt: Badass gif.

@rbt: he reacted to lasers or whatever the chitari were firing and bullets so yes he could react... And is that from the first season when Ollie was still a novice? I am pretty sure that is from the mid season break episode... He can't get around his shield if cap knows they are fighting

No he has reacted to guns firing lasers. Not lasers. You know the difference between aim dodging and actual dodging, right?

And is that from the first season when Ollie was still a novice? I am pretty sure that is from the mid season break episode...

Oliver was never a novice on the show(except for Flashbacks). From the first episode he has been as good as he was at beginning of Season 3.

He can't get around his shield if cap knows they are fighting

Not true at all. Malcolm has tagged Nyssa, who has way better reflexes than Cap. Tagging Cap shouldn't be that big a problem.

Isn't it?

@rbt: you are impossible when it comes to the cw shows... ... Watch the bank scene from avengers

You can keep saying that or you can actually post something to support you claim. So far you've repeated same thing over and over without anything to back it up.

Watch the bank scene from avengers

Watched it dozens of times. Cap never reacted to chitauri fire. If you think he did, point it o

@rbt: he reacted to chitari fire when he raised his shield and it blasted him... He reacted to gun fire and he has aimed dodged gun fire as well... He speed blitzed an entire ocean liner . he is much faster than the arrowverse

@newecho:

he reacted to chitari fire when he raised his shield and it blasted him...

When? Steve was looking right toward the Chitauri and couldn't react to the fire.

He reacted to gun fire and he has aimed dodged gun fire as well..

He has aim dodged/blocked, yes.

he is much faster than the arrowverse

Not even close. I can flood this thread with speed feats from Arrow...

@newecho: Malcolm Merlyn is currently leading the league of assassins. An army that has hundreds of people in it. Cap directed everyone in the first Avengers, but he didn't come up with any special plan or anything. Iron Man was the one who decided to put the nuke in space. Cap is more of a leader, not the tactical genius type. He's obviously good at tactics, but Merlyn was able to use stealth to beat the younger and faster Oliver. That is battle planning and battle tactics. He used his advantages perfectly to win. He also beat a mirakuru soldier alone, with standard gear. Mirakuru guys are on Captain Americas level, so that is also an amazing feat for him.

@sachmoo: Cap thinking of a way to stomp a bunch of normal humans on a ship isn't as good as Merlyn beating a mirakuru soldier by himself. Mirakuru guys are around Captain Americas level. Cap isn't a bad tactician, he was on the army and can lead the Avengers, but Merlyn is a master when it comes to tactics and routinely thinks of ways to beat people who outclass him. In season 3, Merlyn also stomped Brick, a man who stomped Diggle and Arsenal, and who can be shot with bullets without even flinching. He was another legit superhuman Merlyn beat. You could say he did it with skill more than tactics, but either way Merlyn can hold his own against superhumans and has better tactics in combat against those who outclass him. Perhaps I was underrating Cap a little bit, because he did survive against Ultron as well, but Merlyn has better and more consistent feats.

no miraku soldiers are not on caps level and miraku effected everyone differently. The only one that was close is slade but that is a whole different conversation.. Cap led the forces in the first avenger. He also led the avengers in AOU.. In the first movie,, they were coming together so there wasn't much battle planning altho he did lead them in the final battle and the one who told them what to do and the one they looked to when a plan was needed. Malcom beat a novice arrow when it comes to the first season. He can't beat him now. He also got beat by that novice arrow(now i will give you that arrow didn't technically do it by himself). Malcom is more ruthless than cap and could use underlying tactics like he did with speedy and to get arrow to fight Ra's, but those are completely different types of prep... My original point was that unless malcom gets prep then Cap's battle tactics are just as good if not better than anyone in the arrowverse...Slade is his only real competition on that show...Well not counting flash...lol

@nickzambuto: In regards to strength I disagree Mirakuru soldiers are 10 tonners but I don't think it matters to much if the mirakuru soldiers are stronger than Steve. I think we can agree that pound for pound Merlyn is outclassed by a huge margin. If it comes down to it Steve can easily rag doll Merlyn and the only thing that might stop his strikes from being severely damaging are morals. So I wont go to much into strength. Because I think at this point it doesn't matter if Steve is weaker than a mirakuru soldier because the strength advantage he has on Malcom is still pretty massive.

Speed is also an important factor. Not only do Mirakuru users outclass Captain America, but they also outclass Merlyn and Oliver themselves. Slade was able to move at speeds too fast for the human eye to perceive, and even though his training likely had something to do with that, Grundy was still speedblitzing security guards/cops, and each of his blows would audibly slice through the air like a torpedo. That's clear superhuman speed.

Deathstroke is the exception for mirakuru soldiers when it comes to speed because he has skill and training and he clearly has honed his reflexes unlike the others. Its why Slade was able to beat Oliver without getting tagged in the arrow cave and basically overwhelm Oliver easily, yet Oliver evaded some of Roy's punches without too much effort (he did get tagged once IIRC but I don't think Oliver was trying very hard; he seemed pretty casual). I don't think the noise mirakuru soldiers makes means that they are punching at speeds that come close to a torpedo. I can make a similar noise by swinging a stick and even with my hand and I am not fast. Not saying the feat isn't good but its not that incredible.

Grundy charging the security guards is something but I think Steve could probably do that to based on running laps around Sam at the beginning of Winter Soldier with a casual jog. Regardless even if Mirakuru soldiers are faster than Steve in raw speed Steve has honed his reflexes with skill which makes his overall combat speed better. I don't recall a single showing of reactions from a standard mirakuru soldier. I don't think a Mirakuru solder can last as long as Steve did against ultron, in the conditions Steve fought ultron in. I mean yea Steve got hit but I think his skill and reflexes played a big role in the feat. I also don't see a mirakuru soldier being able to replicate what cap did to the quin jet.

So my point: Merlyn struggling with a Mirakuru user less skilled than Cap in H2H does not imply he would be unable to beat Cap, because the Mirakuru users are also significantly more powerful than Cap. People just see the Mirakuru users sending men flying with their strikes and instantly assume they must be on par with Captain America, since they do the same thing, but if people look just a bit deeper into their feats I guarantee most will find that Mirakuru users are actually incredibly powerful. I know @rbt will back me up on this. @al_sah_him too, but I haven't seen him active lately. I really don't think Captain America could replicate a single feat mentioned above, besides blowing up the dummy.

Well even if a mirakuru user is stronger than Cap; cap is still a lot stronger than Merlyn. Plus Cap is another league when it comes to reflexes, skill, and agility. The only meaningful advantage I feel a mirakuru soldier has on Malcom that Steve doesn't is damage soak which admittedly is a big edge, but Steve has the shield and his pain tolerance is pretty good based on his fight with Bucky so I think it kind of balances out. But the real issue is I think due to the mirakuru soldiers lack of skill its easier to evade there attacks.

I think Cap is far more formidable and overall much tougher than a standard mirakuru soldier, regardless if its due to stats or skill. Based on Malcoms previous showings against a meta I don't think he can a meta that is far more formidable. I do think he can hold his own for a bit but he will lose. The standard mirakuru soldier is kind of just a brick. Steve isn't. Unless Malcom can shoot cap I don't think he will win, and I don't see him shooting cap for a majority.

@rbt: Nobody on Arrow could've dodged that shot. Sorry. And Cap is above bullet timing, as evidenced by his being able to react to Hydra's plasma guns which by definition are faster than bullets, the fact that he has reacted to bullets on numerous occasions in both Cap movies (here's a specific one: when he first got his powers and he was chasing the guy who killed the doctor. Right after he took he kid, he fired a shot at Cap and Cap ducked down after the shot was fired before it hit in front of where his head would've been. There's a gif for it but I don't have it), as well as dodging almost point blank shots from Ultron's lasers which are also faster than bullets. So no, the guys in Arrow do not have superior reflexes to Cap. To top it off, he has never ever been tagged by anyone with a gun with the exceptions of the one Chitauri soldier who shot him before he was even fully looking that way and Bucky in their final fight.

As far as actual fights go, of course not. Those are 2 complete different feats altogether. Caps is war tactics/ planning, Merlyns is skill.

I don't want to nit pick here, But this is a definition of Tactics - the art of disposing armed forces in order of battle and of organizing operations, especially during contact with an enemy.

Captain America has done this to near perfection numerous times. Aside from his superhuman stats, Battle Tactics and planning are his best attribute. Neither Merlyn, nor Ollie, nor maybe anyone is better at this than Cap. Its kinda like, exactly what makes him, him.

Cap wins.

Cap. Malcolm might be more skilled, but Cap has much better stats.

@nfactor1995:

Nobody on Arrow could've dodged that shot. Sorry.

I wasn't implying that. I was replying to newcho who said that Cap has reacted to Chitauri lasers.

And Cap is above bullet timing, as evidenced by his being able to react to Hydra's plasma guns which by definition are faster than bullets

Again, aim dodging and actual dodging are two very different things.

the fact that he has reacted to bullets on numerous occasions in both Cap movies (here's a specific one: when he first got his powers and he was chasing the guy who killed the doctor. Right after he took he kid, he fired a shot at Cap and Cap ducked down after the shot was fired before it hit in front of where his head would've been. There's a gif for it but I don't have it)

He clearly didn't dodge it. It very similar to the Hawkeye dodging lasers claim I've seen on vine. He turned his head and bullet hit the pillar. He would have been shot had the bullet not hit pillar.

as well as dodging almost point blank shots from Ultron's lasers which are also faster than bullets.

When?

So no, the guys in Arrow do not have superior reflexes to Cap.

I don't know. Dodging bullets with their back turned is not something Cap has ever done.

. To top it off, he has never ever been tagged by anyone with a gun with the exceptions of the one Chitauri soldier who shot him before he was even fully looking that way and Bucky in their final fight.

Result of really bad shooting. When a guy with a shield is running towards you, the trick is to not shoot on the shield.

@nfactor1995: cap also got shot by the spy who killed the scientist in his first movie.

@allstarsuperman: no he didn't the spy shot at him but never hit him.