Cade Skywalker vs Darth Wyyrlok III

Both were trounced by Krayt. But who would win between them?

Round 1: Force

Round 2: Sabers

Round 3: All-out

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Wyyrlok should sweep. He lasted longer than Cade in sabers, is the most knowledgeable dark side user of the era, possesses more abilities and has better feats with said abilities. He also wasn't tossed around by Krayt like Cade was.

Round 1: Probably Wyrrlok. If there's preparation, decisively Wyyrlok.

Round 2: Based on showings, Cade. It will be a close fight, though.

Round 3: It could go either way. I'll reluctantly say Cade. He has shown greater versatility (largely due to lengthier showings, I suppose), and I think his lightsaber advantage probably surpasses Wyylok's Force advantage. However, if Wyylok catches him with a discharge of lightning, it could sway things greatly in his favour.

@richard96: Krayt beat both. Then Cade pulled a TPM Kenobi and cheapshotted Krayt. It wasn't a legitimate victory.

@greysentinel365: An argument could possibly be made for Cade's speed given that Krayt's reaction time surely can't be as oafish as the comic may suggest. (I am of the opinion, though, that in a conventional 1v1 Cade wouldn't have lasted much longer than Wyrrlok.)

Cade wins sabers and loses the rest.

Cade takes sabers, dies to the rest.

What's the justification for Cade winning sabers? When comparing their respective fights against Reborn Krayt, Cade lasts a total of one panel and in the next he is already down. Contrast this with Wyyrlok's performance, and I just can't see why people think Cade is the better duelist.

@azronger: If you're referring to this panel, Krayt's take-down of Cade was through Force lightning. This might actually work in favour of Wyyrlok for the Force-only round, but I don't think it helps much as a comparison of lightsaber ability.

Edit: We see another instance in the same fight where Krayt injures Cade, but this is again exclusively Force-driven.

@azronger: Keep in mind the two clashed blades before that one panel, it just happened off-page because Antares Draco and Roan Fel took up the screen during that time.

@wollfmyth209: Um, no, Cade and Krayt did not clash blades a single time before it cut to the other stuff. And Krayt was hardly going all-out, having only a single blade drawn, whereas against Wyyrlok he was clearly giving it his all.

@discipulus: That's actually Dark Transfer, which requires physical contact. And if Krayt could fondle Skywalker's chest and pin him to the ground just like that, then it obviously implies a vast difference in skill, power, and overall ability.

@azronger: The point is they obviously clashed blades multiple times before we cut back to them. That during their off-page fight they obviously clashed blades and Krayt didn't fondle his chest.

How many blades he has drawn doesn't change anything, unless you have proof that he fights better with Jar'Kai than without it.

As others have said, Cade wins lightsabers, Wyyrlok wins Force, and Wyyrlok wins all-out in a close battle.

@shootingnova:

reasons for wyrlock taking the other rounds?

What? Landing a physical strike doesn't at all indicate a "vast difference". And krayt pinning cade on the ground was because he was using the sith transfer technique. All krayt did was touch cade through an opening that presented itself from cade blocking krayt's lighting. That doesn't put krayt above cade at a duelist at all

@kbroskywalker: That's not what happened.

Krayt basically blitzed Cade. There was no lightning, no diversionary attack, Krayt just slammed Cade to the ground and killed him.

That does require a vast difference of power

@greysentinel365:

There was no lightning, no diversionary attack,

You're right about this, actually, but it hardly refutes my point or implies a great disparity between them.

Krayt basically blitzed Cade.

Fine and dooku "basically blitzed" kenobi and kenobi "basically blitzed" tcw anakin and ahsoka "basically blitzed offee", and kenobi "basically blitzed maul". Getting past someonbe's sabe rguard with your free hand doesn't remotely put krayt as "vastly more skilled" than cade.

Krayt just slammed Cade to the ground and killed him.

Krayt put cade on the ground as he was using dark transfer. All krayt did in terms of dueling was land a physical strike on him which doesn't remotely indicate a vast difference between the too.

That does require a vast difference of power

No it doesn't.

@kbroskywalker:

You're right about this, actually, but it hardly refutes my point or implies a great disparity between them.

Kind of does

Fine and dooku "basically blitzed" kenobi

Nope.

kenobi "basically blitzed" tcw anakin

Never happened.

Same can be said for the rest.

The scenarios are not comparable.

Cade was actively defending, you can even still see his blade held up when Krayt initially touches him, yet Krayt was able to simply rush him and more or less insta-kill with Dark Transfer.

In other words: He moved faster than Cade could react.

That's a speedblitz.

@greysentinel365:

In other words: He moved faster than Cade could react.

Cade was actively defending, you can even still see his blade held up when Krayt initially touches him, yet Krayt was able to simply rush him

Dude, cade is visibly in pain the second krayt makes use of dark transfer and is leaning backwards(note those sparks coming from krayt's hands? thats dark transfer). Cade isn't actively defending at this point

All can be said for krayt as a duelist was that he was able to get past cade's guard with his free hand which without essence transfer, an ability cade had no idea krayt could use and wouldn't be trying to defend against, wouldn't have ended the fight and may not have even proved significant in any way. Trying to argue that this puts krayt vastly above cade is ridiculous. Frankly it doesn't even stop the possibility that cade would have evntually won a lightsaber duel with him.

and more or less insta-kill with Dark Transfer.

He never instakilled him, he just gave a cade a vision.

Never happened.

I mean mustafar anakin

The scenarios are not comparable.

Take away essence tranfer and yes they are. Actually no you're right, dooku being able to pick up and throw kenobi while having to worry about anakin is way more impressive then touching someone

@kbroskywalker:

Dude, cade is visibly in pain the second krayt makes use of dark transfer and is leaning backwards(note those sparks coming from krayt's hands? thats dark transfer). Cade isn't actively defending at this point

Krayt has already blitzed him at that point. So it doesn't matter.

All can be said for krayt as a duelist was that he was able to get past cade's guard with his free hand which without essence transfer, an ability cade had no idea krayt could use and wouldn't be trying to defend against, wouldn't have ended the fight and may not have even proved significant in any way. Trying to argue that this puts krayt vastly above cade is ridiculous. Frankly it doesn't even stop the possibility that cade would have evntually won a lightsaber duel with him.

You haven't read Legacy have you? For starters that wasn't Essence Transfer, it was Dark Transfer, and it doesn't really matter if Cade knew about it or not, because last I checked the entire idea of a fight is not to let the other person touch you in the first place.

Also, read the damn comic again. Krayt killed Cadethen used Dark Transfer to bring him back to life.

So yes, Krayt killed him. Literally just blew through his defenses before Cade could do anything and won.

Take away essence tranfer and yes they are. Actually no you're right, dooku being able to pick up and throw kenobi while having to worry about anakin is way more impressive then touching someone

Not Essence Transfer, read the comic. If Dooku had moved faster than Kenobi could perceive, rushed up to him, placed a hand on his chest and insta-killed him all while toying the situations would be comparable.

@greysentinel365:

Krayt has already blitzed him at that point. So it doesn't matter.

Landing a physical strike on someone isn't=/blitzing someone

You haven't read Legacy have you?

Actually I have

For starters that wasn't Essence Transfer, it was Dark Transfer

Yea i got the two confused. Whatever it was doesn't matter, krayt's quick victory was only because of the ability, it had abolsutely nothing to do with being a "vastly superior" duelist

and it doesn't really matter if Cade knew about it or not, because last I checked the entire idea of a fight is not to let the other person touch you in the first place

Which can be said of every single example i listed. And no, in a lightsaber duel, being able to touch a dude with your free hand doesn't = beating them.

Also, read the damn comic again. Krayt killed Cadethen used Dark Transfer to bring him back to life.

He did not kill him, he had him at his mercy sure, and was in the process of killing him, but he hadn't killed him yet, hence why the second page you linked me to has cade seeing visions of his future with krayt, a future cade rejected the vision "i have seen" on the next 2 pages, when krayt stopped using dark transfer, by embracing his identity as a jedi.

And anyway, none of this has anything to do with krayt's ability as a duelist

If Dooku had moved faster than Kenobi could perceive

,This never happened with cade.

rushed up to him,

Which isn't remotely the same as blitzing someone

placed a hand on his chest and

Grabbing and lifting someone is way more impressive than touching someone

insta-killed him all while toying the situations would be comparable.

Krayt wasn't toying and anyway this isn't remotely relevant to how krayt is as a duelist

@kbroskywalker:

Landing a physical strike on someone isn't=/blitzing someone

Doing it faster than they can react while they are actively defending is.

Yea i got the two confused. Whatever it was doesn't matter, krayt's quick victory was only because of the ability, it had abolsutely nothing to do with being a "vastly superior" duelist

This has nothing to do with dueling skill. It does show that Krayt is significantly faster than Cade. It also shows that Dark Transfer itself doesn't matter. If Krayt can simply blow through Cade's defenses at his whim he can continually hit him with anything.

He did not kill him, he had him at his mercy sure, and was in the process of killing him, but he hadn't killed him yet, hence why the second page you linked me to has cade seeing visions of his future with krayt, a future cade rejected the vision "i have seen" on the next 2 pages, when krayt stopped using dark transfer, by embracing his identity as a jedi.

This is how I know you haven't read the comic or at the very least read it thoroughly. I'll post the excerpt since you didn't read it on the panels

"I needed to experience death to understand how you did it.

.....

You are dying, boy, but that is good. Death is the only way you can understand my vision. You see it now, don't you?"

Legacy War #6

Last I checked in order to experience death you have to..... well, die. Like Krayt did. Also Cade did not break Krayt's hold. Krayt just stopped the vision.

,This never happened with cade.

I suppose he just let Krayt stroll up and kill him

Which isn't remotely the same as blitzing someone

Moving faster than they can perceive or react to you is blitzing

Grabbing and lifting someone is way more impressive than touching someone

Not in this context

Krayt wasn't toying and anyway this isn't remotely relevant to how krayt is as a duelist

Yes, he was. He was not putting any effort in, wanted Cade alive and ended the fight in an instant once he chose to.

Skill really doesn't matter if you can speedblitz someone.

@greysentinel365:

Doing it faster than they can react while they are actively defending is.

Which applies to every physical strike ever landed in any star wars duel.

This has nothing to do with dueling skill. It does show that Krayt is significantly faster than Cade. It also shows that Dark Transfer itself doesn't matter. If Krayt can simply blow through Cade's defenses at his whim he can continually hit him with anything.

It can be used to argue that krayt is faster than cade(though a singular moment hardly makes an overwhelming case), it doesn't remotely imply he's vastly better duelist and considering that they were fighting for some time before this(alot of it off panel) he obviously can't end the fight whenever he wanted

Last I checked in order to experience death you have to..... well, die. Like Krayt did. Also Cade did not break Krayt's hold. Krayt just stopped the vision.

I did read the panels, absolutely nothing you've posted is equivalent to saying krayt instakilled him. He was killing him, over the course of several panels, and then he stopped using dark transfer

Also Cade did not break Krayt's hold. Krayt just stopped the vision.

I never said cade broke free of anything, but he did not complete killing him and he certanly didn't do it instanteously

I suppose he just let Krayt stroll up and kill him

Krayt "killing cade" had nothing to do with lightsaber skill. Take away dark transfer, and all krayt will have accomplished is having touched cade. Andits perfectly plausible that had cade not been immediately subjected to dark transfer incapping him, krayt putting his hand on cade would have ended with his hand getting cut off

Yes, he was. He was not putting any effort in, wanted Cade alive and ended the fight in an instant once he chose to.

The only claim which is valid here is that he wanted cade alive which is true but doesn't remotely imply he was toying wiith him

@discipulus: there's no indication of cade being injured in that second panel

@kbroskywalker:

Which applies to every physical strike ever landed in any star wars duel.

No. What Krayt did here more closely resembles what Sidious did to Agen Kolar.

It can be used to argue that krayt is faster than cade(though a singular moment hardly makes an overwhelming case), it doesn't remotely imply he's vastly better duelist and considering that they were fighting for some time before this(alot of it off panel) he obviously can't end the fight whenever he wanted

He is faster than Cade.

He didn't want to end the fight. He toyed with Cade first, wanting him to surrender. Then he toys off-panel for about a minute. Then Krayt ends it in one move. Clearly Krayt wasn't having any trouble otherwise he wouldn't have outright dismissed the idea of Cade defeating him after the off-screen portion. Cade was attacking him the whole time. If Cade was a threat he wouldn't have dismissed the idea.

I did read the panels, absolutely nothing you've posted is equivalent to saying krayt instakilled him. He was killing him, over the course of several panels, and then he stopped.

Please enlighten me how Cade is supposed to experience what Krayt experienced when he died, without dying? Or how one experiences death without being dead.

Krayt "killing cade" had nothing to do with lightsaber skill. Take away dark transfer, and all krayt will have accomplished is having touched cade. Andits perfectly plausible that had cade not been immediately subjected to dark transfer incapping him, krayt putting his hand on cade would have ended with his hand getting cut off

Point blank force lighting, TK blast, actually making it a hard punch. Or since Cade was unable to react to his approach, just shoving his lightsaber through his chest.

If Krayt had not used Dark Transfer he can still highlight the move with any other power.

The only claim which is valid here is that he wanted cade alive which is true but doesn't remotely imply he was toying wiith him

Krayt simply standing there and letting Cade attack him, while being very disinterested and never following up on his moves indicates he is toying. He literally states it doesn't matter what trick Cade tries.

But we are going around in circles now. Unless you have nothing else to add I'll end this here

@greysentinel365:

No. What Krayt did here more closely resembles what Sidious did to Agen Kolar.

Those two instances aren't remotely comparable considering that sidious was way further away and that sidious;s attack was way more direct

He didn't want to end the fight. He toyed with Cade first,wanting him to surrender

Totally baseless. Krayt wanting cade to surrender doesn't remotely indicate he was toying with him.

Then he toys off-panel for about a minute.

Baseless, the claim that krayt was toying with cade is totally unfounded.

Then Krayt ends it in one move

Yes via a special force ability.

Clearly Krayt wasn't having any trouble otherwise he wouldn't have outright dismissed the idea of Cade defeating him after the off-screen portion.

You mean like dooku did with anakin? Or like grevious dismissed kenobi? Krayt's subjective opinion doesn't mean crap here. Caedus also thought he was going to kill krayt, so using this line of logic, obviously krayt would have lost had it not been for dark transfer

Cade was attacking him the whole time.

Well that is how fights tend to work

Please enlighten me how Cade is supposed to experience what Krayt experienced when he died, without dying? Or how one experiences death without being dead.

Cade already knows dark transfer, he doesn't need krayt to reshow him. The two statements you're showing are saying separate things.

Or how one experiences death without being dead.

Krayt experienced death, cade was dying, he wasn't dead, hence why "he was still dying" the images on the next page are visions, then krayt stopped using dark transfer. Krayt never instakilled cade

Point blank force lighting, TK blast

Which aren't remotely relevant to dueling

actually making it a hard punch.

Which wouldn't end the fight and could end with his fist getting chopped off

Or since Cade was unable to react to his approach, just shoving his lightsaber through his chest.

He didn't react to krayt's free hand, likely because his defenses would be focused on krayt's blade. Thats why sw characters can land physical hits in lightsaber duels. Getting by someone's defenses with an unamed strike doesn't= being able to stab with a saber.

If Krayt had not used Dark Transfer he can still highlight the move with any other power.

A. Which wouldn't end the fight

B. powers aren't relevant to how he compares as a duelist

Krayt simply standing there and letting Cade attack him

he didn't simply stand there, he used tk and then he used lightning. The first attack didn't actually have an affect on cade and cade got past the second attack.

while being very disinterested and never following up on his moves indicates he is toying

He did follow up his moves. He followed his tk blast with a tk swipe at cade's legs and then he followed that with lightning.

He literally states it doesn't matter what trick Cade tries.

Which is subjective and his own opinion. It doesn't mean he was toying with him. Cade not being able to beat him doesn't remotely mean he was toyed with. There's no reason krayt wouldn't be trying to quickly deal with cade and given that the fight lasted several panels he clearly wasn't able to stomp him outright

But we are going around in circles now. Unless you have nothing else to add I'll end this here

Sure

@kbroskywalker: Perhaps 'injured' was overstating it - I was referring to the Force push rather than the lightning attack.

Oh I see. I thought at first he simply incapacitated Cade using the lightning then used a TP power. Thanks for clarifying.

And if Krayt could fondle Skywalker's chest and pin him to the ground just like that, then it obviously implies a vast difference in skill, power, and overall ability.

Whilst I agree that Krayt outperforms Cade, I don't think this particular display is conclusive. We've seen the inferior combatant gain the upper hand through physical force before.

Bump

@greysentinel365 said:

Both were trounced by Krayt. But who would win between them?

Round 1: Force

Round 2: Sabers

Round 3: All-out

Were they both really trounced? I seem to recall Cade being outmatched but doing OK against Krayt, and Wyyrlok lll only lost when it got to saber dueling

Cade performed better so he wins

Cade was stomped while Wyyrlok putted up a considerable fight before going down. If anything Wyyrlok's performance is far superior

Wyyrlok performed better against Krayt.

Cade lost to Krayt after 5 pages (with lengthy dialogue) of fighting. Wyyrlok lost after 3 with no dialogue meaning the fight could've easily lasted less than 15 seconds given how nothing shown during the fight necessitates a long duration. The whole fight consisted of Krayt deflecting Wyyrlok's lightning, Wyyrlok hurling boulders at Krayt that the latter redirects, blocking/dodging 4 lightsaber strikes from Krayt and then getting tricked by him which leads to his death. Not only that but Wyyrlok goes into the fight with a lot of confidence only to end up looking like he shat himself after the first saber clash. Krayt is also said to have won the fight easily per authorial intent.

If someone didn't get stomped it's definitely not Wyyrlok.