Let's see it should be
Vegeta stood absolutely no chance against Kid Buu whereas Good Buu held his own and was able to agitate Buu and land a few hits. He put up a fight.
The correct chain is: Broly Lssj =/= Good Buu > Majin Vegeta =/ Goku Ssj2 >= Kid Gohan Ssj2 > Super Perfect Cell
Broly is above kid buu so there's no way he'd = Good Buu that's just ridiculous. Good buu only did better against Kid buu because he has better durability than Vegeta but in the fight between Vegeta and Fat Buu it's obvious that without that amazing regen Vegeta would of won that fight.
The statement could be dubious, though. We don't really know exactly how far "back then" is. He could mean the Cell saga, or even the begining of the Buu saga.
Either way, I still wouldn't put Broly above Fat Buu, let alone Kid Buu.
The statement could be dubious, though. We don't really know exactly how far "back then" is. He could mean the Cell saga, or even the begining of the Buu saga.
Either way, I still wouldn't put Broly above Fat Buu, let alone Kid Buu.
Back from Movie 8, where Gohan was nowhere near as powerful as his Cell Games self. At best Gohan is equal to his Kid Gohan Ssj2 counter-part. It doesn't change the out-come. Broly had trouble with Gohan, but so would Majin Vegeta or Goku. Broly feats only place in slightly above Goku & Vegeta.
The statement could be dubious, though. We don't really know exactly how far "back then" is. He could mean the Cell saga, or even the begining of the Buu saga.
Either way, I still wouldn't put Broly above Fat Buu, let alone Kid Buu.
Back from Movie 8, where Gohan was nowhere near as powerful as his Cell Games self. At best Gohan is equal to his Kid Gohan Ssj2 counter-part. It doesn't change the out-come. Broly had trouble with Gohan, but so would Majin Vegeta or Goku. Broly feats only place in slightly above Goku & Vegeta.
Ehh... I personally believe SSJ2>Broly.
The statement could be dubious, though. We don't really know exactly how far "back then" is. He could mean the Cell saga, or even the begining of the Buu saga.
Either way, I still wouldn't put Broly above Fat Buu, let alone Kid Buu.
Back from Movie 8, where Gohan was nowhere near as powerful as his Cell Games self. At best Gohan is equal to his Kid Gohan Ssj2 counter-part. It doesn't change the out-come. Broly had trouble with Gohan, but so would Majin Vegeta or Goku. Broly feats only place in slightly above Goku & Vegeta.
Ehh... I personally believe SSJ2>Broly.
Hence why the Daizenshuu says he's the strongest Super Saiyan surpassing Goku.
The statement could be dubious, though. We don't really know exactly how far "back then" is. He could mean the Cell saga, or even the begining of the Buu saga.
Either way, I still wouldn't put Broly above Fat Buu, let alone Kid Buu.
Back from Movie 8, where Gohan was nowhere near as powerful as his Cell Games self. At best Gohan is equal to his Kid Gohan Ssj2 counter-part. It doesn't change the out-come. Broly had trouble with Gohan, but so would Majin Vegeta or Goku. Broly feats only place in slightly above Goku & Vegeta.
Ehh... I personally believe SSJ2>Broly.
Hence why the Daizenshuu says he's the strongest Super Saiyan surpassing Goku.
You mean the second strongest.
The statement could be dubious, though. We don't really know exactly how far "back then" is. He could mean the Cell saga, or even the begining of the Buu saga.
Either way, I still wouldn't put Broly above Fat Buu, let alone Kid Buu.
Back from Movie 8, where Gohan was nowhere near as powerful as his Cell Games self. At best Gohan is equal to his Kid Gohan Ssj2 counter-part. It doesn't change the out-come. Broly had trouble with Gohan, but so would Majin Vegeta or Goku. Broly feats only place in slightly above Goku & Vegeta.
Ehh... I personally believe SSJ2>Broly.
Hence why the Daizenshuu says he's the strongest Super Saiyan surpassing Goku.
You mean the second strongest.
The afters the Manga's serialization. Super has no baring on the Manga nor does the Daizenshuu have any influence on Super or vice versa.
@thedarkpaladin: he's talking about since his first fight with Broly, even Vegeta said that he's weaker than he was when he fought Cell.
That's true, but Gohan never used SSJ2 against Broly in either fight to my knowledge.
It took 3 Super Saiyans to beat him. That's significant power in it's own accord.
The statement could be dubious, though. We don't really know exactly how far "back then" is. He could mean the Cell saga, or even the begining of the Buu saga.
Either way, I still wouldn't put Broly above Fat Buu, let alone Kid Buu.
Back from Movie 8, where Gohan was nowhere near as powerful as his Cell Games self. At best Gohan is equal to his Kid Gohan Ssj2 counter-part. It doesn't change the out-come. Broly had trouble with Gohan, but so would Majin Vegeta or Goku. Broly feats only place in slightly above Goku & Vegeta.
Ehh... I personally believe SSJ2>Broly.
Hence why the Daizenshuu says he's the strongest Super Saiyan surpassing Goku.
You mean the second strongest.
The afters the Manga's serialization. Super has no baring on the Manga nor does the Daizenshuu have any influence on Super or vice versa.
Ohh... you thought I was serious? Lol
Either way, Broly has no bearing on the manga as well.
@thedarkpaladin: he's talking about since his first fight with Broly, even Vegeta said that he's weaker than he was when he fought Cell.
That's true, but Gohan never used SSJ2 against Broly in either fight to my knowledge.
It took 3 Super Saiyans to beat him. That's significant power in it's own accord.
Not really. One of those Super Saiyans was Goten, and I'm pretty sure an SSJ2 could overpower 3 Super Saiyans. Especially if one of them is a kid who doesn't have much experience.
The statement could be dubious, though. We don't really know exactly how far "back then" is. He could mean the Cell saga, or even the begining of the Buu saga.
Either way, I still wouldn't put Broly above Fat Buu, let alone Kid Buu.
Back from Movie 8, where Gohan was nowhere near as powerful as his Cell Games self. At best Gohan is equal to his Kid Gohan Ssj2 counter-part. It doesn't change the out-come. Broly had trouble with Gohan, but so would Majin Vegeta or Goku. Broly feats only place in slightly above Goku & Vegeta.
Ehh... I personally believe SSJ2>Broly.
Hence why the Daizenshuu says he's the strongest Super Saiyan surpassing Goku.
You mean the second strongest.
The afters the Manga's serialization. Super has no baring on the Manga nor does the Daizenshuu have any influence on Super or vice versa.
Ohh... you thought I was serious? Lol
Either way, Broly has no baring on the manga as well.
@thedarkpaladin: he's talking about since his first fight with Broly, even Vegeta said that he's weaker than he was when he fought Cell.
That's true, but Gohan never used SSJ2 against Broly in either fight to my knowledge.
It took 3 Super Saiyans to beat him. That's significant power in it's own accord.
Not really. One of those Super Saiyans was Goten, and I'm pretty sure an SSJ2 could overpower 3 Super Saiyans. Especially if one of them is a kid who doesn't have much experience.
Broly has baring on the characters within his own movie. Which are an adaption of the Manga counter-parts, and equally powerful.
Goten gave Goten trouble in the Manga and made him sweat while training. He's at least 70-80% of Gohan on equal levels.
The statement could be dubious, though. We don't really know exactly how far "back then" is. He could mean the Cell saga, or even the begining of the Buu saga.
Either way, I still wouldn't put Broly above Fat Buu, let alone Kid Buu.
Back from Movie 8, where Gohan was nowhere near as powerful as his Cell Games self. At best Gohan is equal to his Kid Gohan Ssj2 counter-part. It doesn't change the out-come. Broly had trouble with Gohan, but so would Majin Vegeta or Goku. Broly feats only place in slightly above Goku & Vegeta.
Ehh... I personally believe SSJ2>Broly.
Hence why the Daizenshuu says he's the strongest Super Saiyan surpassing Goku.
You mean the second strongest.
The afters the Manga's serialization. Super has no baring on the Manga nor does the Daizenshuu have any influence on Super or vice versa.
Ohh... you thought I was serious? Lol
Either way, Broly has no baring on the manga as well.
@thedarkpaladin: he's talking about since his first fight with Broly, even Vegeta said that he's weaker than he was when he fought Cell.
That's true, but Gohan never used SSJ2 against Broly in either fight to my knowledge.
It took 3 Super Saiyans to beat him. That's significant power in it's own accord.
Not really. One of those Super Saiyans was Goten, and I'm pretty sure an SSJ2 could overpower 3 Super Saiyans. Especially if one of them is a kid who doesn't have much experience.
Broly has baring on the characters within his own movie. Which are an adaption of the Manga counter-parts, and equally powerful.
DBS is a continuation of Dragonball. Equally powerful? I wouldn't say that. It also holds many contradictions because in movie 8, it's hard to tell whether or not they had trained in the hyperbolic time chamber since Gohan was a SSJ, but him and Goku weren't staying that way all the time.
Goten gave Goten trouble in the Manga and made him sweat while training. He's at least 70-80% of Gohan on equal levels.
You mean surprised Gohan with a rock throw? Majin Vegeta knocked him and Trunks out by barely hitting them. Goten is definitely not 70 or 80% of Gohan.
It takes place a days before the World Martial Arts Tournament, when Goku was still dead. There is no reason to assume they aren't as powerful as the Manga, it actually makes no sense whatsoever to think that because the only thing backing it -if that, is speculation.
Except it doesn't follow the timeline in the manga properly. Where was Majin Buu? Why didn't Gohan use SSJ2, and why didn't the boys use the fusion technique? There are too many plot holes to suggest that they are the same as there manga counterparts.
No, in the Manga Goten trained with Gohan as Super Saiyans and had Gohan sweating. They are rivals.
What does Gohan sweating have to do with anything? We don't know how long they were out there training and I seriously doubt Gohan would use his full power against his brother.
Majin Vegeta was a Ssj2 who had a 25% boost over his Pre-Majin self -who was hit by Trunks as Super Saiyans. It's not a fair comparison to compare a high tier Ssj2 to a low tier Super Saiysn (the kids).
Where did it state that Majin Vegeta was 25% stronger than his original self? Are you refering to the "hit" that didn't even faze Vegeta? It barely caught his attention and afterwords he sent Trunks flying back crying Vegeta wasnt in SSJ2 at the time either. Trunk>Goten, btw.
Yes, evidence suggests the boys are at least 80% of Gohan.
No evidence suggests that. The only thing that does is speculation.
It took place before the Tournament and before Buu showed up. Gohan isn't able to turn Ssj2 without being angry, the artwork proves it. There are no plot holes.
Gohan can turn SSJ2 without being angry. He did it against Kibito just fine. So the artwork actually proves the opposite.
It shows Gohan was exerting full effort. You don't sweat unless you are. Gohan also said the boys could surpass him. They are rivals and the artwork proves it, nothing contradicts it so it's true until contradicted -at least in the premise of narration and story telling.
Nonsense. I could jog at half of my real speed and still sweat given enough time. Gohan's statement doesnt really prove how strong the kids are compared to him. He only stated that if he doesn't start training soon, then the kids could surpass him. Your 20% difference isn't backed up by anything but opinion.
Vegeta believed he could defeat Goku at the Cell Games -who only used 50% of his power. But Goku powers up to full power with Cell and this amount of power blows his mind. Vegeta Mssj being 75% of Goku at the Cell Games works perfectly. Vegeta continues to say that the gap between them in the Buu Saga had not changed. Making Vegeta Pre-Majin 75% of Goku Ssj2.
Again, where are you getting these percentages? We don't know the exact difference between Super Vegeta and MSSJ Goku. Vegeta never stated that he believed he could take Goku using half his strength. Hell, it was never mentioned whether or not Goku was only using half of his strength until he powered-up against Cell in the first place...
Vegeta was clearly going all out in the picture above. He demonstrated a reaction hit and was quite clearly putting some effort in. Vegeta is much greater than Teen Gohan; hence why the artwork displays it as such.
I disagree. I don't think Vegeta was using anywhere near his full strength. The difference between him and his son was evident as Trunks litterly said that Vegeta is a lot stronger than himself. The difference between Gohan and Vegeta is up for speculation as well. We don't know how much greater Vegeta is and he himself wasn't sure it was all that much either. He said to Goku that Gohan is probably weaker than them now.
Goku Ssj2: 100
Vegeta Pre-Majin: 75
Teen Gohan Ssj: 30
Trunks Ssj: 27
Goten Ssj: 24
Nice fan calcs, but what does it prove?
The statement could be dubious, though. We don't really know exactly how far "back then" is. He could mean the Cell saga, or even the begining of the Buu saga.
Either way, I still wouldn't put Broly above Fat Buu, let alone Kid Buu.
Back from Movie 8, where Gohan was nowhere near as powerful as his Cell Games self. At best Gohan is equal to his Kid Gohan Ssj2 counter-part. It doesn't change the out-come. Broly had trouble with Gohan, but so would Majin Vegeta or Goku. Broly feats only place in slightly above Goku & Vegeta.
Ehh... I personally believe SSJ2>Broly.
Hence why the Daizenshuu says he's the strongest Super Saiyan surpassing Goku.
You mean the second strongest.
The afters the Manga's serialization. Super has no baring on the Manga nor does the Daizenshuu have any influence on Super or vice versa.
Ohh... you thought I was serious? Lol
Either way, Broly has no baring on the manga as well.
@thedarkpaladin: he's talking about since his first fight with Broly, even Vegeta said that he's weaker than he was when he fought Cell.
That's true, but Gohan never used SSJ2 against Broly in either fight to my knowledge.
It took 3 Super Saiyans to beat him. That's significant power in it's own accord.
Not really. One of those Super Saiyans was Goten, and I'm pretty sure an SSJ2 could overpower 3 Super Saiyans. Especially if one of them is a kid who doesn't have much experience.
Broly has baring on the characters within his own movie. Which are an adaption of the Manga counter-parts, and equally powerful.
DBS is a continuation of Dragonball. Equally powerful? I wouldn't say that. I also holds many contradictions because in movie 8, it's hard to tell whether or not they had trained in the hyperbolic time chamber since Gohan was a SSJ, but him and Goku weren't staying that way all the time.
Goten gave Goten trouble in the Manga and made him sweat while training. He's at least 70-80% of Gohan on equal levels.
You mean surprised Gohan with a rock throw? Majin Vegeta knocked him and Trunks out by barely hitting them. Goten is definitely not 70 or 80% of Gohan.
I remember when dragon ball was cool, we just have kid goku and his adventures. Then come DBZ and turn everything to shit
If Gohan were able to do so willingly he would turn Ssj2 and beat Dabura to save his friends, or stop Majin Buu.
Gohan didn't appear to be in any serious trouble against Dabura and wouldn't have been able to do anything against Buu even if he transformed. He could sess how strong Buu was and tried to run away only to get one-shotted.
Gohan was clenching his teeth, sweating and had to resort to flying due to being on the defense of the fight. Gohan was definitely struggling.
What does any of that prove exactly? We don't know if Gohan had to "resort" to flying or if he just decided to dodge Goten's kick that way. Gohan sweats all the time even when he's not fighting. He also clenches his teeth out of surprise. So... yeah, doesn't prove much lol.
In the Manga adaption of Yo Son it's revealed Tarble was referencing 1rst form Frieza level, so it's not impressive.
I agree. It makes it even less impressive for Goten and Trunks, because if they were anywhere near Gohan, they would have effortlessly stomped the duo. It also doesn't help that Goten and Trunks were far more powerful at that point.
most definitely hit him with his full strength. It was an unrestrained reflex punch.
Arguable. We don't know if Vegeta was even using his full strength and even if he did, it just shows how outclassed Trunks is. Trunks even admits that he is nowhere near Vegeta and Trunks>Goten.
The Z-Fighters fared fairly good against Nappa, who was toying around with them the entire time. The 50% estimate still stands.
The Z fighters weren't even close to Nappa. One punch from him could rip Tien's arm right off. Tien was one of the strongest of the Z fighter's at the time. Nappa was keeping Goku on his toes until he went Kaio-Ken. And the Cell point still stands. So... yeah, 50% estimate debunked.
Gohan was breathing heavily and sweating. Dabura wasn't.
The scan showed heavy breathing. It didn't only come from Gohan. Not that it matters because on the next page they're both fine.
In Yo Son Goku Manga Goten and Trunks one shot Aka & Kado. So nah, not really.
This only proves that you never made it past chapter 1. Goten and Trunks had to resort to the fusion technique, and Goku still ended up stepping in.
http://manga.dbnao.net/Dragon_Ball_Heya!_Son_Goku_and_His_Friends_Return!_[EN]/02/4
Gohan was clenching his teeth while fighting Goten. Also Goten through that rock in Base form while Gohan wasa Ssj. Again, the Manga has the boys one shotting 1rst Form Frieza tier characters, so it's a terrible argument.
Gohan was clenching his teeth out of shock. He didn't expect Goten to have that strong of a throw. Doesn't back your 50% argument in the least, considering the canon and you yourself debunk it thoroughly lol.
he proof is in Vegeta's unrestrained attack. It's evidence enough.
Vegeta reacted to getting hit. It doesn't mean he punched Trunks at full force.
Nappa never landed one hit. The Z-Fighters almost had Nappa once or twice.
Nappa took Tien out of the fight in 2 punches. Tien has a little less than half of his power. Again, after Vegeta told Nappa to keep a level head he did much better. Even Goku said the fight could drag on forever.
It makes it impossible for them to fight someone yes. Sure I'm a hypocrite now. However, the argument still stands. I can see Muhammad Ali fight Sonny Liston but it doesn't mean I can react to his movements inside the actual fight.
Difference is Muhammad Ali doesn't fight fast enough to dissappear from sight. The Z fighter use their senses to keep up with their opponents.
The 50% argument still stands.
Debunks his own argument. Admits he's a hypocrite, but his argument still somehow stands...? Makes sense.
As you see in your scan, Gohan is worn out while Dabura is just casually standing there. They only fused because they could, not because they had too. Further-more, nothing dictates Yo Son Goku as canon. It can be your personal cannon, but it doesn't have any influence on the Manga or Db Super. Toriyama comments on it in an interview and calls it the closest thing to canon of all the Dbz films. It's the closest thing to canon, but not actually canon.
Look closer. The scan shows both of their mouths open and the heavy breathing isn't coming from just Gohan. Yo Son Goku is confirmed canon later on in BoG where Tarble was mentioned.
All Yo Son Goku argument nullified.
Nope. But you still haven't proven your 50% estimate argument and actually debunked it yourself.
Goten was fighting Gohan when Gohan was clenching his teeth, not during the rock throw.
Check the scan I posted. Gohan clenches his teeth right after Goten throws the rock.
It was an unrestrained attack due to being hit. It wasn't Vegeta holding back and casually hitting his son.
Again, how can you prove that he used his full power? When he knocked him out in the fight against Buu, he did it pretty casually.
The fight could drag on forever because Goku had to conserve energy for Vegeta.
Opinion. Goku could have always went Kaio-Ken and ended it quick. Nappa had a powerlevel of 4000. Goku's was 8000 (without Kaio-ken) your own 50% estimate working against you again...
To the normal human eye, a fast punch from Ali wouldn't be detected. It would take a trained fighter to react to it. Viewing it on a recorded camera and stepping into the ring and seeing it are 2 different things.
Detecting=/=reacting. I could probably see one of his punches with my own eyes but it doesn't mean I have the reflexes to react to it.
Because the argument still holds, and she*
It really doesn't. Your argument is only opinion based and has been debunked a few times here. You did yourself. And my bad lol.
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