Battle of the Week: Lady Shiva vs. X-23

Skill or powers? Precision or endurance? Now, this isn't implying X-23 isn't skilled -- that's far from true -- but few can say they have the same level of technique and deadly hand-to-hand abilities as Lady Shiva does. Will her amazing abilities as a fighter be enough to overcome X-23's advantages, though? Will the DC villain be able to incapacitate the Marvel heroine before an adamantium claw brings her a whole lot of pain? A skirmish between these two would be a great thing to witness, so we want you to think about how it would all play out. Every strike. Every throw. Every taunt. Which advantages hold more weight in the melee? Do either of them have any disadvantages that'll come into play? How do their tactics differ? Will the environment play a role? Once you're done reading the rules (don't be a slacker and skip them), really give this one a good amount of thought and then cast your vote.

Match Rules

• Combatants are in character. This means their usual set of morals apply.
• This is a random encounter (no prep for either side). Both sides have no immediate knowledge of their opponents, either.
• The takes place in a large dojo (think of the one we saw in The Matrix). There are various melee weapons on the walls. The two begin 25 feet apart.
• As you can tell from the images, this is pre-52 Lady Shiva.
• Incapacitation, knockout, death or submission/surrender all count as elimination.
• Hey, you know what would be really cool? Treating everyone else in the debate with respect. If you think someone's saying something that just isn't true, go ahead and stick to the facts to point out why. There's no need at all to drop insults just because you disagree with someone. Seriously, this is just talking about a fictional fight, there's no need for immaturity and mudslinging.
• If you think the poll isn't going how it should, making an informative post about why a character is being underestimated and spreading the word is far more useful than just complaining.
• One more thing: you don't need to write an essay to have your post highlighted in Friday's article. Sometimes concise posts can be way more effective than a flood of paragraphs.

Check the homepage this Friday for an updated article with the following:

• The results of the poll.
• Thoughts from the staff.
• Viner arguments for both characters.
• If we're lucky, blurbs from industry talent.

Want to make a match suggestion for one of Batman's villains? (In case you're wondering, we think Lady Shiva's had enough encounters with the Bat-family to make us comfortable using her.) Tell us below or share it via twitter.

Shiva gets past the healing factor... how?

This'll break the Internet.

Shiva in a league on her own, I just cant see her loosing.

I'm curious since about a year or so ago people claimed Snake Eyes couldn't get pat Laura's healing that he wouldn't be able to win. That logic should stand here but it's a DC character so probably not.

@justice_teen said:

Elektra would have been a cooler fight.

Snap her neck?

Well personally an issue I had was I wasn't sure if snake eyes would just decapitate a kid. Shiva has killed her own daughter before (and brought her back to life but that was only because Cass wasn't giving it her all when shiva killed initially and she wanted a proper fight). I don't remember if I voted in the snake eyes one but I would think shiva is more ruthless.

Strongly disagree. Yeah, there's obvious parallels between those two and that would have been the most obvious/generic pairing, but I view it as "anything you can do, I can do better." Elektra's great, but I just don't see her as having the skill edge over Shiva and that would be the deciding factor since they bring similar strengths to the table. Elektra will go lethal, but Shiva has no problem doing it sooner. Elektra's good in hand-to-hand combat, Shiva's better. So on and so on. An amusing fight, no doubt, but I'd always have my money on Shiva. I just see Elektra holding no noteworthy advantages in that one. Here, there's more to take into consideration since they bring different strengths to the brawl.

@serrure Well, that needs to be discussed in a debate, doesn't it? :P

I like this fight personally. I assume based on the batman vs X-23 results shiva is going to lose but we'll see.

X23 Adamantium claws, healing factor and senses will decide this victory.

X-23 just doesn't seem on the same level of the world greatest assassin's type characters Like Shiva, Deathshot, Bullseye, Elektra, etc.

X-23. I don't think Batman could do it, and he's got gear. Shiva's better, but no real gear.

Wolverine-style folks have ever gotten beaten temporarily by martial artists, but with PIS off I don't see it happening. Shiva could probably do a pretty solid job of keeping X-23 from hitting her, but there's not much Shiva could do to hurt/stop her, other than put her in a lock. Which I guess is possible, but not for a majority. So I think X-23 will wear her down.

This

Why is it people claim it as a popularity contest repeatedly? Make your case and stop crying.

Looks like Batman Rogues are off to a difficult start.

@jashro44: That is the only factor that separates Snake and Shiva in my mind, and one I've been heavily considering. Snake is a soldier, and wouldn't hesitate to put down an enemy. We've seen him do it. But never a kid. Threat or not, X is a kid and Snake has a strong moral code despite not hesitating to kill enemy combatants.

And Shiva, like you said, doesn't.

For me personally this fight comes down to whether or not Shiva will figure out Laura's healing counters pretty much all conventional means for her to win and how fast Shiva goes to those extremes...and if she can pull it off before catching a sneaky foot claw to the body.

@teerack: X-23 would beat Elektra... Elektra doesnt have the kind of damage output needed to down X-23.

Hmm, I'm undecided on this one for now.

In any event, for the next battle I'd like to request - Riddler Vs. Joker. Prep battle.

The only thing Shiva has that's "better" than Batman is pure technical skill in the martial arts. Batman trumps her in literally every other category.

I'm holding my vote until the end seeing the arguments, I don't know much about either of those characters (I find Lady Shiva cooler though). Also, X-23 fought and won by arguments against standard gear Batman here? Because that would be relevant here I believe.

It will be difficult but Shiva would win 5.5/10 if you ask me.. Some of her commonly used weapons like kusarigama and katana would give her a range advantage and when she realizes that x-23 heals she will go for incap with her kusarigama.; I dont see X-23 tagging her without using tricks tho.

X-23

Heh, but seriously, I remember morals playing a role with Snake Eyes and Batman. Both have the means to beat Laura, but they wouldn't exactly be open to doing what needs to be done early on it the fight, so it's a matter of whether they can realize they need to go all-out against her/use more dangerous gear before she gets a good hit on them. I think Shiva's a more interesting case because she wouldn't have any hesitation ripping out Laura's throat or all other kinds of insanely dangerous/fatal moves right from the start.

Not really seeing how Shiva gets past X23's healing factor. I'd love to see some arguments on how'd she do it tho....pressure points perhaps?

This should be good, I'll wait to vote

Well Elektra has usually struggled when fighting Bullseye or actually been killed by him in all of their fights so that's a bit weird.... It's not really what this battle is about though so I'm not going to argue.

X23 has mastered most martial arts also, while not as purely skilled as shiva(very few are) but her skill mixed with her other natural advantages(speed, strength, healing factor, and natural aptitude) should be enough to get a win without everything being equalized....Shiva would wipe the floor with her without her built in advantages but the fight is not set up that way and I know it won't be represented that way either...

Who's Deathshot? That some new Leifeld ripoff character of Deadshot the way Deadpool ripped off Deathstroke? j/k

I'm going to say lady shiva for now. She's arguably in the top 3-5 (the only fighters I think are above her for a fact are Cass, Karate Kid, and Sensei, Batman is debatable) best fighters in DC but what separates her from everyone besides sensei (who doesn't have good stamina) is her ruthlessness. X-23's healing factor is good but its not enough by itself to counter shiva. I can be convinced when I see proof X-23 can hang with someone in shivas weight class.

strong enough healing factors have shaken those off. not to mention that Laura is going to be much much faster than Shiva

Oh oops. I actually meant to say Deathstroke.

Shiva isn't a Batman villain at all…and there's no way that conclusion could be logically drawn.

Well sabretooth for example was recently dropped by Daken when daken slit his throat. As has been mentioned shiva can just rip the throat out completely (IIRC its not hard to do that if you know what your doing). Or snapping her neck could probably incapacitate X-23. Unless people have something to prove otherwise.

@highaccuser: she's had several run ins with him and his family. She has helped his enemies as well. She's villain enough for this thread

She can be considered one IMO. She's the mother of Cassandra cain and has had a few run ins with her, she retrained batman in knightfall, was speculated to be the mother of Jason Todd IIRC, etc. She's had a moderate impact on the bat mythos; maybe not as big as someone like bane or Ras al ghul or joker or even someone like clayface but I think she can qualify.

It's not like she can still be a Richard Dragon villain when he barely exists most of the time. She's been a Batman villain for the longest part of her existence.

While X-23 does have her healing factor and claws, that has never given her or Wolverine an automatic win against good martial artists. Shiva is a great fighter in skill and experience. She has proven the ability to defeat Batman H2H and the ruthlessness to kill men, woman, and children. X-23 fights with too much emotion which would lead to her downfall. Shiva will play off those emotions and lead her into a trap that allows Shiva to either incapacitate her or knock her out. While its not easy, it has been shown to happen to her and Wolverine before.

Yeah, she is.

@jashro44: That would make her more of Cassandra's villain than anything. Batman shouldn't inherit the rest of the families villains. Retraining Batman isn't really something that would identify her as his villain.

I suppose I can't complain too much. not many of Batman's villains are noteworthy combatants in randoms. The only others I can think of are Deadshot, Ra's, and Catwoman, but those aren't the easiest to come up with matchups for.

@jashro44:

Bats is not in the top ten in dc in my opinion and definitely isn't in Shiva's league... as far as who could beat shiva in hand 2 hand consistently... I would say val(of course) and sensei(debatable depending on stamina) are the only two ... You can make cases for cass(who has a winning record vs shiva but overall feats are not as good), Richard dragon(when he isn't jobbing) and Slade(due to smarts and physicals not skills)... Her body reading isn't on the level of cass but her technical skill is above pretty much everyone with exception of val, sensei and maybe dragon.... In this particular battle,, the skill isn't so far off that gives shiva a win... X23 is faster and stronger than is shiva.. without those things being equalized and shiva not having prior knowledge of Laura then I think she loses 7 out of 10... If we put it just skill vs skill then I think shiva takes 8 out 10...

OK, Let's start with Shiva. Obviously she has the Skill advantage, she was able to best Batman and in h2h and Bats stated that "she may very well be the best fighter alive". She is regarded as the most skilled fighter and assassin in DC. So if this were strictly h2h I would give this to Shiva. One thing that might help her is the assortment of weapons on the wall, to keep distance and help damage Laura and even out the advantage of Laura's claws. It's worth noting that Shiva has a high pain tolerance.

However I do not see her getting past Laura's healing factor and durability. The speed between the two is most likely even so this fight just might take a while. Laura's pain tolerance and damage soak is up there with Logan's and I think that is what is gonna win this fight. Also even though Shiva has the skill advantage does not mean Laura is lacking in that department. Laura has went toe to toe with Daken and Lady Deathstrike in the past. Also being that there is no prior knowledge the claws coming out of her feet might come as a surprise later in the fight. Think Laua throws a kick to her head Shiva blocks and grabs her leg and footsnikt! in the face. At the end of the day no matter what Shiva dishes out X-23 will come back from it. Shiva breaks her ribs, healed. Shiva stabs her with a sword in the dojo, healed. Shiva cuts her face off, healed. Shiva snaps her neck, healed. X-23 stabs Shiva in the throat/head/lungs, Shiva is dead. While it won't be an easy fight vote goes X-23 any day of the week.

Shiva giving birth to a supporting character of the bat family is an impact on the bat family. If Shiva never retrained batman in knightfall batman wouldn't remember how to fight and JPV would still be batman since Bruce wouldn't have the skills to reclaim his mantle. She also had a major role in death in the family which is another essential batman story.

Through out her history she has had at least one major impact on bat-mythos and she has had a major role in at least two major bat stories. That should be qualification enough for her to count as a bat villain. Even if we discount her giving birth to Cassandra Cain she's had enough of an impact on the mythos.

X-23's healing factor makes this a no-brainer. The fact that according to the rules above, Shiva won't know X-23 has a healing factor is way to X-23's advantage. Also Shiva does not know that X-23 has retractable claws. It goes down like this, X-23 closes the 25ft instantly, allows herself to be impaled on Shiva's weapon to the hilt then unleashes the hand and toe claws up close and personal, ripping Shiva's body to shreds. Fight is over in seconds.

Keep in mind folks that in real fights involving skilled individuals, whether it is guns, blades or just fists, they almost always end very, very quickly.

Really tough call, but IMHO Laura would win in a very bloody fight.

Now, there's no question that Shiva is the top notch martial artist here, surpassing the majority of the fighters in overall skill, but sometimes that's not enough, which for me applies to this case.

Laura is no slouch combat-wise, considering the amount of training she received to become the perfect weapon, but for me what really makes the difference here is the others attributes she brings to the fight. Enhanced senses, adamantium claws from both hands and feet, healing factor and pain resistance, whoa, it's too much. Shiva may be the most skilled fighter between the two but X-23 more than compensates with her stats, powers and own personal abilities. She's fast enough to keep up with Shiva and might only need one single strike to win the fight

Anyone know what Shiva's standard weaponry is? Shiva is leagues above X-23 in terms of skill (not even slightly disrespectful to Laura, she's just that good), but she may need the extra weaponry to put Laura down for the count before she gets taken out by some surprise claws (maybe doing something like Elektra did to Wolverine with the sai in his neck).

@jashro44:

snapping X-23's neck would not overcome the healing factor. remember her healing factor is like Wolverine's and he has been busted to pieces numerous times and just kept fighting.

X-23's healing factor and hidden Feet claws are the deciding factors imo. The feet claw is usually hidden and never obvious until it stabbed into your abdomen. Shiva doesn't have the raw damage ability to put X-23 down fast or easily.

I can't think of a scenario where Shiva can simply break her neck without sustaining massive claw damage. Grappling with someone with hand AND Feet Claws is a recipe for disaster and it's not like X-23 is a push over in hand to hand combat.

Shiva and Laura are both extensively trained in armed and unarmed combat. Shiva has trained under numerous martial artists and is considered one of the best fighters in the world. Shiva can predict her opponents attacks and has fought against numerous foes.

Laura has heightened physicals, a healing factor that lets her reattach limbs and retards the effects of toxins and poisons and she has also been conditioned to go into a berserker rage if she should smell a specific scent.

Shiva could win as she is insanely skilled, but Laura is also very skilled and has superior physicals plus a healing factor. Laura takes this one.