Up close is the only way Bat family can win. The Snakes have too many advantages at keeping the distance, with their (IMO) better stealth feats, coupled with better stealth gear, and considering Solid Snake tags speedsters and Big Boss doubled the rifle shooting world record with an RPG, Bruce and Dick won't be afforded to chance to use their probably superior martial arts.
Up close is the only way Bat family can win. The Snakes have too many advantages at keeping the distance, with their (IMO) better stealth feats, coupled with better stealth gear, and considering Solid Snake tags speedsters and Big Boss doubled the rifle shooting world record with an RPG, Bruce and Dick won't be afforded to chance to use their probably superior martial arts.
Up close is the only way Bat family can win. The Snakes have too many advantages at keeping the distance, with their (IMO) better stealth feats, coupled with better stealth gear, and considering Solid Snake tags speedsters and Big Boss doubled the rifle shooting world record with an RPG, Bruce and Dick won't be afforded to chance to use their probably superior martial arts.
Up close is the only way Bat family can win. The Snakes have too many advantages at keeping the distance, with their (IMO) better stealth feats, coupled with better stealth gear, and considering Solid Snake tags speedsters and Big Boss doubled the rifle shooting world record with an RPG, Bruce and Dick won't be afforded to chance to use their probably superior martial arts.
Up close is the only way Bat family can win. The Snakes have too many advantages at keeping the distance, with their (IMO) better stealth feats, coupled with better stealth gear, and considering Solid Snake tags speedsters and Big Boss doubled the rifle shooting world record with an RPG, Bruce and Dick won't be afforded to chance to use their probably superior martial arts.
But hey, you know me :P
Theres speedsters in metal gear?
Gray Fox
Well, yes Gray Fox is one of them but Snake actually failed to shoot him and had to go h2h :P
I'm referring to Vamp and Olga. Olga was at least supersonic and Vamp was easily Spider-Man level hypersonic. They both liked blitzing people so I can refer to them as "speedsters". Raiden for example, was a bullet timer, yet couldn't even perceive Vamp's movements and got stomped by Olga. So I think they fit the bill as "speedsters"
@nickzambuto: All right fair enough. Personally I don't know if I consider spider-man level a speedster (its debatable) all though thats just different definitions.
@nickzambuto: All right fair enough. Personally I don't know if I consider spider-man level a speedster (its debatable) all though thats just different definitions.
Well, when I think of speedster, I think of someone who likes to blitz people faster then they can react. That is totally Vamp's style.
Not sure how well their firearms will fair against bullet proof armor and since they won't automatically shoot for the mouth which is also protected, I can't see why Batman and Nightwing couldn't close the distance and engage in some CQC...Solid and Naked are among their tier, but Bruce and his most developed ward are even better, especially when stealth is concerned (no moving boxes over here).
@jashro44: Are we including Solid Snake feats per MGS4?
Also in CQC is very close between Solid and Batman.
All of this is stated facts from the Games that Konami (Who own more of the rights than Kojima himself at this point) show Expanded Universe Solid Snake is indeed a Master of 32 Forms and a Master in CQC rather than Batman's own stated Studied 120 something forms.
IMO Solid snake with a Blade and Gun is superior in Close Combat to Nightwing by alot and equal to Batman himself.
@cadencev2: CQC isn't actually a form of martial arts, rather, it's a collection of specific techniques taken from a wide range of other styles (judo being the prime example in-universe)
So the whole "durr moar martials = more skillz" argument won't work since Snake can know who-knows-how many techniques. His grapples and throws are advanced enough to work on Vamp and Gray Fox, and of course he's a master of gun-fu.
Not sure how well their firearms will fair against bullet proof armor and since they won't automatically shoot for the mouth which is also protected, I can't see why Batman and Nightwing couldn't close the distance and engage in some CQC...Solid and Naked are among their tier, but Bruce and his most developed ward are even better, especially when stealth is concerned (no moving boxes over here).
Eh. Sometimes Batman's armor is bullet proof and sometimes it's not. Nightwing on the other hand I don't think ever wears body armor.
@cadencev2: CQC isn't actually a form of martial arts, rather, it's a collection of specific techniques taken from a wide range of other styles (judo being the prime example in-universe)
So the whole "durr moar martials = more skillz" argument won't work since Snake can know who-knows-how many techniques. His grapples and throws are advanced enough to work on Vamp and Gray Fox, and of course he's a master of gun-fu.
I think the point is clear Snake was a master of many forms of Martial Arts before learning or Mastering CQC which is a Martial art in itself for Military Combat much like Bruce Lee's own Jeet Kun Do is not a solid Martial Arts but rather collection of Martial Arts in the form of fluid motions.
Also Snake never mastered CQC until MGS4 it seems. After all who taught him? How did he learn it? IIRC he was a Martial Art Bad@$$ before perfecting his version of CQC.
It does play a huge role in defining and determining a Martial Arts Close Combat debate.
@cadencev2: CQC isn't actually a form of martial arts, rather, it's a collection of specific techniques taken from a wide range of other styles (judo being the prime example in-universe)
So the whole "durr moar martials = more skillz" argument won't work since Snake can know who-knows-how many techniques. His grapples and throws are advanced enough to work on Vamp and Gray Fox, and of course he's a master of gun-fu.
I think the point is clear Snake was a master of many forms of Martial Arts before learning or Mastering CQC which is a Martial art in itself for Military Combat much like Bruce Lee's own Jeet Kun Do is not a solid Martial Arts but rather collection of Martial Arts in the form of fluid motions.
Also Snake never mastered CQC until MGS4 it seems. After all who taught him? How did he learn it? IIRC he was a Martial Art Bad@$$ before perfecting his version of CQC.
It does play a huge role in defining and determining a Martial Arts Close Combat debate.
Snake was always a master of CQC, Big Boss personally taught him during his FOXHOUND training. He just never used the techniques until MGS4 because Big Boss was a traitor.
@cadencev2: CQC isn't actually a form of martial arts, rather, it's a collection of specific techniques taken from a wide range of other styles (judo being the prime example in-universe)
So the whole "durr moar martials = more skillz" argument won't work since Snake can know who-knows-how many techniques. His grapples and throws are advanced enough to work on Vamp and Gray Fox, and of course he's a master of gun-fu.
I think the point is clear Snake was a master of many forms of Martial Arts before learning or Mastering CQC which is a Martial art in itself for Military Combat much like Bruce Lee's own Jeet Kun Do is not a solid Martial Arts but rather collection of Martial Arts in the form of fluid motions.
Also Snake never mastered CQC until MGS4 it seems. After all who taught him? How did he learn it? IIRC he was a Martial Art Bad@$$ before perfecting his version of CQC.
It does play a huge role in defining and determining a Martial Arts Close Combat debate.
Snake was always a master of CQC, Big Boss personally taught him during his FOXHOUND training. He just never used the techniques until MGS4 because Big Boss was a traitor.
@nickzambuto: Whats really funny is Solid Snake beat Gray Fox without using CQC as a human and Cyborg Ninja. He also beaten Big Boss twice. 3 Times if you count the Expanded Universe Snakes Revenge.
Snake's Revenge isn't canon. It isn't expanded fiction, it is explicitly non-canon.
That said, Solid Snake was a former green beret, but he also had Navy SEAL, Marine Corps, and SAS training (Metal Gear 2 and Metal Gear Solid 2 confirm this). And of course, he trained under Big Boss himself and is a master at CQC. His entire life has been dedicated to warfare, as its been said he's a master of all weapons, including bladed weapons, which he only preferred not to use out of personal taste rather than lack of proficiency, which is the same reason he didn't use CQC, which is canonically stated to be the most superior form of hand to hand combat above all others. So unless Batman/Nightwing have training in some sort of fictional fighting style, both Solid Snake and Big Boss would be able to counter their every move in strictly hand to hand combat. Gadgets are the only thing that Batman/Nightwing have an advantage in, but with morals on they're in trouble.
I need to know what kind of gear Team Snakes is carrying. When I think of "standard gear" for them, I think of SOCOM hand guns and combat knives (and it'll take more than that to takedown Bats and Grayson) tho there's a ton of other weapons/gear in Metal Gear lore. As it stands now, I'm leaning towards Batman and Nightwing.
Big Boss and Snake can win this depending on what kind of weapons/ gear they're packing
I need to know what kind of gear Team Snakes is carrying. When I think of "standard gear" for them, I think of SOCOM hand guns and combat knives (and it'll take more than that to takedown Bats and Grayson) tho there's a ton of other weapons/gear in Metal Gear lore. As it stands now, I'm leaning towards Batman and Nightwing.
Big Boss and Snake can win this depending on what kind of weapons/ gear they're packing
Currently, post-PW Big Boss wields The Patriot, a custom XM16E1 modified to be compatible with CQC, firing a canonically unlimited number of 5.56x45 rounds... although MGSV is slated to change that... always pushing back when Big Boss fully accepts himself as the successor to The Boss. In MGS2 and 4 Solid Snake carries an assault rifle and a pistol, MGS2 being the M4 with an underslung grenade launcher and a SOCOM, and in MGS4 a fully customizable M4 and an Operator. In 2 he has his bandana which grants him unlimited ammo.
@trollheim: That is a lot of firepower, but when you start out in Metal Gear games you usually start out with nothing other than a pack of cigs and either a tranq gun or SOCOM pistol or in Big Boss's case a combat knife and a hand gun. Other weapons/gear you have to find as you go.
So when I see standard gear in the OP I think of nothing more than what Team Snakes usually carry at the start of a mission which is not much, least not much in comparison to what Batman and Nightwing usually have on them normally
Snake's Revenge isn't canon. It isn't expanded fiction, it is explicitly non-canon.
Yeah it kinda is. Konami says so and they have rights to the Game Franchise as well making it a part of the Expanded Universe whether you like it or not. Kind of how Terminator Comics is made by 3 separate comic companies and has Movies from 3 separate directors. Hell in truth Twin Snakes is part of the Expanded Universe whether Kojima approves or not.
Oh looky! KONAMI on the covers. They must be part of the "Expanded Universe" even if they do not fit in with the Canon of Kojima himself.
Much like current Star Wars Expanded Universe fits nowhere with establish Canon of Lucas.
@trollheim: That is a lot of firepower, but when you start out in Metal Gear games you usually start out with nothing other than a pack of cigs and either a tranq gun or SOCOM pistol or in Big Boss's case a combat knife and a hand gun. Other weapons/gear you have to find as you go.
So when I see standard gear in the OP I think of nothing more than what Team Snakes usually carry at the start of a mission which is not much, least not much in comparison to what Batman and Nightwing usually have on them normally
Thats a pretty lame argument. Batman and Nightwing start off with no gear when they get out of bed >_> seriously that is a terrible argument of Standard Gear. Standard Gear is what they have on them most of the time in their Comics/Movies/Games. That Includes all the gear they have scrounged up. Batman never started with Explosive Battarangs, he made them over time. I mean... really!
Snake's Revenge isn't canon. It isn't expanded fiction, it is explicitly non-canon.
Yeah it kinda is. Konami says so and they have rights to the Game Franchise as well making it a part of the Expanded Universe whether you like it or not. Kind of how Terminator Comics is made by 3 separate comic companies and has Movies from 3 separate directors. Hell in truth Twin Snakes is part of the Expanded Universe whether Kojima approves or not.
Oh looky! KONAMI on the covers. They must be part of the "Expanded Universe" even if they do not fit in with the Canon of Kojima himself.
Much like current Star Wars Expanded Universe fits nowhere with establish Canon of Lucas.
So yeah.
Using a Star Wars comparison, Episode 7 will overwrite whatever happened in the books after Episode 6, as if they never happened. It doesn't matter what people said happened, G-canon nullifies it from having ever happened.That's what happened to Snake's Revenge. It was overwritten, replaced with Metal Gear 2.
That is a lot of firepower, but when you start out in Metal Gear games you usually start out with nothing other than a pack of cigs and either a tranq gun or SOCOM pistol or in Big Boss's case a combat knife and a hand gun. Other weapons/gear you have to find as you go.
So when I see standard gear in the OP I think of nothing more than what Team Snakes usually carry at the start of a mission which is not much, least not much in comparison to what Batman and Nightwing usually have on them normally
By this logic, Link shouldn't be allowed to have his master sword right?
In Peacewalker Big Boss starts the game with an M16. That was his standard gear throughout the game. He started with it, used it in cutscenes, etc. Snake also uses an M4 in all of the cutscenes he appears in with Raiden in MGS2, uses it in the Tengu fights, etc. MGS4 he flips between using an M4 and using his operator.
This is canon old snake. M4 custom with telescopic sight and flashlight, if you want to use his most recent incarnation.
@trollheim: Which is why it is Expanded Universe and I say it as much.
AvP Movies are not Cannon at all to any Dark Horse AvP Comics or the Predator Movies. Yet fans still use it as Expanded Universe as that is what it is. Expanded.
Terminator Comics are same way. Dark Horse Comics are Canon to James Cameron's T1 and T2 Movies. Dynamites are Canon to Jonathon Mostow's T3 Movie. All of it is Canon as Expanded Universe as all those companies/Directors have had rights to it to make it what it is!
How about Star Wars? They have official statements in magazine all the time as George Lucas saying their is his Canon (Movies) and the Expanded Universe Canon which has nothing to do with his story or works. This is seen as Dark Horse, Lucas Arts, and others made Inconsistencies with the movies. In many ways! Yet we except the term Expanded Universe when Discussing it.
DC Comics have this Canon problem right now! Most of the feats Pre 52 are said by some writers and editors as canon with New 52. Yet New 52 has completely different back stories at times as well power sets! How can it be Canon! Seems Expanded Universe is more appropriate, however in this case Canon event makes no sense and as such not the right word by definition at all.
Twin Snakes and Snakes Revenege is no different. It was made by Konami, the guys who made all the Metal Gear Games. Snakes revenge is not canon due to Kojima deciding making a sequel. Before Metal Gear 2 it was 100% Canon. Then Twin Snakes came out and although Kojima says it is not official per himself, it is in fact the exact same dialogue, story, and majority same gameplay with better graphics, new feature, and better Cinema Action. Its Expanded Universe thanks to the right establishment. Not Official Canon but the rights of Konami are more than Kojima at this point, which does make it Expanded. It is only not Canon becuase of the Legacy Released were Kojima had his way and released the older MGS game with the rest.
I am not saying Snakes Revenge is Canon. It is Expanded Universe and was official Sequel when it first came out. Just as the Contradicting Comics is released with the Legacy Collection Games. So it must be Expanded Universe! I just do not see how.
Expanded Universe qualifications.
Rights own by maker of Non Canon Material? Check.
Was Canon at one time? Check.
Original Creator Approves it? Check.
The Comics, Snakes Revenge, and Twin Snakes meets this material. It is Expanded Universe as the term is thrown around for other media!
@trollheim: @cadencev2: I understand this. But to me "Standard Gear" is too open ended in terms of Metal Gear. I mean c'mon they could have anything from octo-camo to stealth camo to a friggin' rail gun to unlimited bullets from the Patriot. Maybe standard gear means hey have everythig which could turn this to spite.
Maybe I'm just over thinking this lol! Idk, I'd like just a little bit more input in the OP to make a more educated decision on this fight.
Anyways, I'm out my fellow viners, need to hit the sack to start up early. Keep up the debate!
@cadencev2 After some thought... I guess I could see your argument, one might say that Snake's Revenge is S-level canon-
the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe
whereas games like Ghost Babel and Metal Gear Acid 1 are C-canon. Portable Ops would be T-canon. So Snake being a master of 32 oriental martial arts might be considered canon since having that much training wouldn't contradict any other statements about his skill.
@shazam117 My point is that generally if they're using the gear in cutscenes and almost always have it with them, then it is part of their standard gear.
@cadencev2 After some thought... I guess I could see your argument, one might say that Snake's Revenge is S-level canon-
the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe
whereas games like Ghost Babel and Metal Gear Acid 1 are C-canon. Portable Ops would be T-canon. So Snake being a master of 32 oriental martial arts might be considered canon since having that much training wouldn't contradict any other statements about his skill.
@shazam117 My point is that generally if they're using the gear in cutscenes and almost always have it with them, then it is part of their standard gear.
Like I said, I would not bring up any Unofficial Cannon without labeling it as Expanded Universe Version or Feats.
@thenaughtytitan Not against Old Snakes ass in OctoCamo, best ass of a 70 year old wrinkly guy ever
But I would go with Team 2 considering that their main close combat technique is designed to counter other techniques and both defeated highranked enemies that would keep them in Bats and Nightwings league.
Besides Morals could hinder Team 1 considering that Team 2 has no problems going full lethal against their enemies
More proficient in ranged combat and either could hold off Batman in CQC long enough for the other to take out Nightwing before they double team for the win.
If anything, Batman and Nightwing working as a team gives them an advantage. Solid Snake spent a lot of time training under his father, but they don't have anywhere near the years of experience working hand-in-hand and boosting each other up the way Batman and the various Robins do, Dick Grayson especially.
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