1. Darth Malak
2. Darth Traya
3. Darth Revan
4. Darth Malgus FE
5. Darth Bane
6. Revan SOR
7. Darth Tenebrous
8. Darth Maul
9. Darth Tyranus
10. Darth Caedus
11. Darth Vader
12. Reborn Krayt
Full heals and lost members are revived after each round. The gauntlet is done when all three are knocked out in one match.
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If there are any problems with the order say it and I'll change it.
8 or 9, and caedus wrecks revan imo
9 and upwards beat them.
Honestly, 6 or 7 and onwards can all beat them via sufficient use of their substantially greater Force powers.
@wollfmyth209: Thanks
Anything wrong with order in your opinion?
@greysentinel365: Maybe Maul should be a bit lower and Traya a bit higher, I guess. Caedus can be above SoR Revan, though it's obviously debatable.
Other than that, no.
Bane should be lower by quite a bit. That's it.
And they probably stop at 7/8.
@lordofthelight: Thanks
You can reply in a PM if you think it will derail the thread. But can you justify lowering Bane? Or simply invalidate DMB's proposed post POD scaling for him?
Stops at Malgus
It won't derail as he is a part of the gauntlet.
And Bane isn't low. I just rate the others like Maul above him. He is impressive indeed. But the others are even more impressive. Going my way, Maul should take his place, and after that he should switch places with Malgus.
The scaling isn't invalidated, but it is overblown. His best telekinetic feat is breaking the base walls of a 20 m tall temple on a DS Nexus much more powerful than Korriban, and utterly draining his reserves in the process. I don't deny that his ROT incarnations are more powerful, but the extent to which he suggests, cannot be taken a face value due to the time spent between the books, as he has had major amplifying factors. Which means that the power growth isn't linear or varies as a direct function of time, like it would if he had performed those feats entirely on his own merit. And there seems to be little to no disparity between his feats as they vary between the books, which in of itself, is not a good indicator of power not increasing, but becomes valid when coupled with other factors.
Also, DoE Bane is weaker than his nexus amped( Tython) orbalisk covered ROT self( his late ROT self is his prime for me). There are some indications of this, such as his speed decreasing, which he has affirmed himself in the novel( which indirectly states that his power has lessened due to augmentation) and the fact that more of emphasis is laid on his wisdom, knowledge and experience, not raw power as it used to be before. Plus, the orbalisks had degraded his body( which should naturally lead to a loss of power as midichlorians would be lost) and they were a constant source of sheer power to him. Their loss would result in a loss of a lot of power for him( not to mention, his more impressive feats occur on the nexus of Tython, which according to himself was a bastion of dark side energy and there is no scaling at all for that).
Also, as to why I feel that his PoD scaling is overblown, read this:
http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/darth-maul-vs-kasim-1769439/?page=2#js-message-17758253
I don't have any issues with Bane being a lot powerful, but he is below Maul IMO, and decisively at that.
Not making it past 6. Also, SOR Revan is above Reborn Krayt
They can beat Vader. They'd stop at Caedus for sure.
Lose at Vader
If not Malgus they stop at Bane.
@greysentinel365: Just to clarify some misinformation for you
I don't deny that his ROT incarnations are more powerful, but the extent to which he suggests, cannot be taken a face value due to the time spent between the books, as he has had major amplifying factors. Which means that the power growth isn't linear or varies as a direct function of time, like it would if he had performed those feats entirely on his own merit.
He had one amplifying factor for the temple feat that the novel didn't even feel was relevant enough to mention how amped he was, while the text of the novel did feel it was relevant to mention that he was already exhausted prior to unleashing that wave.
And it is linear when the text of Rule of Two states that when he had two orbalisks, he was more powerful than he had ever been before, which includes when he was on Tython, so even as of the beginning of ROT he could replicate that feat. Seems pretty linear to me.
And there seems to be little to no disparity between his feats as they vary between the books, which in of itself, is not a good indicator of power not increasing, but becomes valid when coupled with other factors.
The underlined part of your statement is a noteworthy point to bring up as absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. For example, in maybe 5% of the sources they appear in do Kenobi, Dooku, Maul, Anakin, Yoda, or Luke actually display telekinetic feats near the upper limit of their abilities, and this holds true for characters in novels as well. The most Revan did with telekinesis in the Revan novel was collapse an archway, and everyone knows that isn't even near his upper limit with telekinesis.
And Bane in Rule of Two did display some rather intense telekinetic feats, while Bane in Dynasty of Evil was never in a remotely good position or need for demonstrations of vast telekinetic destruction, either hiding from the public eye, fighting people who weren't worth his full effort (Prakith), while exhausted with his power suppressed in his own mansion which I doubt he'd want to destroy, while in a prison under tons and tons of rock with walls laced with explosives that he wouldn't want to bring down atop his head, and facing an opponent roughly on par with him in the Force.
Also, DoE Bane is weaker than his nexus amped( Tython) orbalisk covered ROT self( his late ROT self is his prime for me). There are some indications of this, such as his speed decreasing, which he has affirmed himself in the novel( which indirectly states that his power has lessened due to augmentation) and the fact that more of emphasis is laid on his wisdom, knowledge and experience, not raw power as it used to be before.
First of all, the novel suggests that his physical capabilities were decreasing due to a loss of Force power, it notes the cause as being his baseline physicality as his body is aging. The text says what he loses in strength and speed he can make up for with knowledge and experience, it doesn't bring raw power into the comparison as the way you've phrased things would deceive someone into believing.
Secondly, Bane notes his speed and strength have only very marginally declined from some undisclosed point in the past, and there was an entire decade between Rule of Two and Dynasty of Evil. So suggesting that the decrease in Bane's physical capabilities is anything more than marginal, or that it is a comparison between ROT and DOE Bane is disingenuous.
Plus, the orbalisks had degraded his body( which should naturally lead to a loss of power as midichlorians would be lost) and they were a constant source of sheer power to him.
Degrading his body=A loss of midichlorians? DOE Bane's baseline physical state is superior to that of Sidious's or Yoda's (both of which have been more degraded by age than by the slight physical degredation Bane has experienced as of Dynasty of Evil), as is Maul's, though clearly Sidious and Yoda don't have some midichlorian deficiency. Plagueis's physical body was weakened after the Maladian assassination attempt, but it was noted in the novel that it hadn't weakened his power in the Force. This notion that physical degredation is evidence of a loss of midichlorians and Force power is baseless.
Their loss would result in a loss of a lot of power for him( not to mention, his more impressive feats occur on the nexus of Tython, which according to himself was a bastion of dark side energy and there is no scaling at all for that).
Nothing disproves the possibility of Bane making up for the loss of power from the orbalisks with a substantial increase in willpower (which is corroborated by evidence), increased knowledge of the Dark Side (which is again corroborated by evidence), and more time practicing studying and mastering the Dark Side (As of DOE Bane has spent nearly twice as much time working to master the Dark Side as he had by the end of ROT), so the notion that losing the Orbalisks is evidence of some glass ceiling any further incarnation of Bane is incapable of breaking is a faulty one.
And a comparison of Bane's physical abilities displayed in ROT and DOE paints DOE Bane showcases DOE Bane as having superior physical abilities and at the very least comparable ones, which is evidence of power growth since, as you've mentioned before, it relates to Force augmentation. The evidence you have used to try and suggest ROT Bane>DOE Bane physically wasn't specifically referring to ROT Bane while a direct physical comparison between the two paints DOE Bane in a more favorable light.
I am aware of the fact that Bane is your firm favorite, so first of all, just chill. This is a fictional universe, and these are just opinions. You don't need to take anything personally at all.
He had one amplifying factor for the temple feat that the novel didn't even feel was relevant enough to mention how amped he was, while the text of the novel did feel it was relevant to mention that he was already exhausted prior to unleashing that wave.
The text did note that he felt light-headed with the dark side energy. Numerous instances of it present themselves throughout SW. A DS Nexus increases a dark-sider's ability to call upon the force, and hinders a Jedi's connection to it. This is pretty much established in the SW mythos.
Regardless, this doesn't matter that much, as per the scaling you have already given. Which is why I am not using this as a direct evidence, as I mentioned the ROT blurb that stated him more powerful than before.
The text also notes that he was drained of all of his reserves to the point that he just lay there and let the sand cover him, and did so for some time. That's constitutes a feat that denotes his upper limits.
And it is linear when the text of Rule of Two states that when he had two orbalisks, he was more powerful than he had ever been before, which includes when he was on Tython, so even as of the beginning of ROT he could replicate that feat. Seems pretty linear to me.
That's right. Linear only in ROT. Not after he lost the orbalisks. And you mean, when he was on Lehon? Because he enters Tython after that, during the late ROT.
The underlined part of your statement is a noteworthy point to bring up as absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. For example, in maybe 5% of the sources they appear in do Kenobi, Dooku, Maul, Anakin, Yoda, or Luke actually display telekinetic feats near the upper limit of their abilities, and this holds true for characters in novels as well. The most Revan did with telekinesis in the Revan novel was collapse an archway, and everyone knows that isn't even near his upper limit with telekinesis.
The sources vastly differ in their own interpretations. The mainstream novels( like the clone wars novels) etc. do have people like Obi Wan displaying insane feats of telekinesis, with extreme ease. Some random comics here and there do denote them straining with stuff, but then again, comics are there which denote Yoda as straining with lifting stuff and performing telekinesis feats inferior to the ones performed easily by the others. And he can destroy people like Obi Wan, Maul etc. with the force.
It's obvious. Due to the vast amount of material available on the PT era characters, sources will differ on the limits of their abilities. The ones in the old Legends and closer to the movies don't have such extravagant displays of the force from people like Maul, Dooku, Obi Wan, Anakin etc. Whereas newer Legends sources/novels and some canon sources, the ones released after the clone wars show( TCW), have them performing straight up, insane feats with the force and many of them easily at that. Naturally, one would take the newer Legends sources to be more in line, since the force users are supposed to be in their prime at this juncture, and were supposed to be stronger than ever before. In the old Legends, stuff like the overtly extravagant displays of the force weren't common, that is until the hype on the ancient Sith and TOR started. Then came the Bane novels. I'd like to think that the newer Legends sources in the PT era sort of responded to that, by making characters in the PT era more powerful, as they originally were intended to be. In return, maybe Yoda and Mace weren't shown to be that powerful, but then again, they have powerscaling.
The Bane trilogy on the other hand, is just made of 3 novels that are written by the same writer. The consistency levels there, cannot be compared to the consistency levels in the PT era, for obvious reasons.
And Bane in Rule of Two did display some rather intense telekinetic feats, while Bane in Dynasty of Evil was never in a remotely good position or need for demonstrations of vast telekinetic destruction, either hiding from the public eye, fighting people who weren't worth his full effort (Prakith), while exhausted with his power suppressed in his own mansion which I doubt he'd want to destroy, while in a prison under tons and tons of rock with walls laced with explosives that he wouldn't want to bring down atop his head, and facing an opponent roughly on par with him in the Force.
Bane in the ROT displayed telekinetic feats while in an almost perpetual state of rather severe bloodlust, which was immensely fueled by the orbalisks. There wasn't really a need for either of that as well. Had he wanted to he could have just unleashed all of his force abilities on the Jedi, who wouldn't really stand a chance, as was shown. Instead he choses to engage them in a meaningless lightsaber combat, which he should have disengaged from upon realizing that his opponents were much weaker in the force than him. He could have then destroyed them with the force. The motives of a character aren't completely logical always.
He could have and did indeed unleash the force fully on Prakith. The net result was that, he couldn't disintegrate around 20 fodder without getting exhausted and having to draw upon the DS nexus of Prakith.
First of all, the novel suggests that his physical capabilities were decreasing due to a loss of Force power, it notes the cause as being his baseline physicality as his body is aging. The text says what he loses in strength and speed he can make up for with knowledge and experience, it doesn't bring raw power into the comparison as the way you've phrased things would deceive someone into believing.
Right. So, first of all, his body had degraded, and severely at that, due to the loss of the orbalisks and the damage his own lightning and the subsequent events had wrought on that? You don't deny that do you?
Next, he had lost an extreme amount of power due to losing his orbalisks? That is, undeniable as well.
So, assuming you accept that, we are faced with this: He has lost an extreme amount of power, and then his body has degraded as well, limiting what his natural power could have had him accomplish had it been intact.
All of the author's intents mean that he has lost raw strength and power in the force, which the author implies in several ways like the loss of his strength and speed after ROT. Which he has made up for in "other" ways such as gaining more knowledge and mastery in the dark side. That doesn't change the fact that he is weaker than his ROT self, when it comes to raw power.
And he also notes that his body would be a ruined husk in 5 years, and that Zannah could dispatch him with virtually no risk at all? Surely if he is indeed growing stronger in the force, it wouldn't be almost risk free for Zannah to dispatch him? He is already slightly better than Zannah even as of DoE and if he continues to grow for 5 years, as you claim, then he should be even stronger in the force?
Secondly, Bane notes his speed and strength have only very marginally declined from some undisclosed point in the past, and there was an entire decade between Rule of Two and Dynasty of Evil. So suggesting that the decrease in Bane's physical capabilities is anything more than marginal, or that it is a comparison between ROT and DOE Bane is disingenuous.
Pardon me, but what you are suggesting here is that he would somehow compare himself to some random point in the past, "before" he was covered with orbalisks? Despite being out of them for around a decade now? Despite being covered by them for a decade? This is quite a blatant appeal to ignorance, as one that I have ever seen.
This is a continuity. The author intends for the story to progress and for the characters involved to change "from" their previous selves. Their direct previous selves. As they appeared in previous works of the author, and in this case, as Bane appears and how he is different from ROT and DOE, which is what is indicated. Suggesting that he isn't comparing with his ROT self, and is just making a random comparison with the "past" before ROT which is completely arbitrary, is just ridiculous.
Degrading his body=A loss of midichlorians? DOE Bane's baseline physical state is superior to that of Sidious's or Yoda's (both of which have been more degraded by age than by the slight physical degredation Bane has experienced as of Dynasty of Evil), as is Maul's, though clearly Sidious and Yoda don't have some midichlorian deficiency. Plagueis's physical body was weakened after the Maladian assassination attempt, but it was noted in the novel that it hadn't weakened his power in the Force. This notion that physical degredation is evidence of a loss of midichlorians and Force power is baseless.
I am not referring to physical degradation, but rather the degradation of flesh. And extreme degradation of flesh that involves literally "cooking" of it. Not the body as it degrades over with age. Perhaps a better example would be in order, that of Anakin Skywalker? We all know in what condition Bane was after what happened on Tython. The injuries may not be the exact same as Anakin's but they are similar.
When Zannah first reached Bane's side, she was sure her Master was dead. The lightning had reduced his clothes to ash, and his gloves and boots had melted away. The flesh of his face and hands was charred and burned, covered with blisters that oozed a runny yellow pus.
....
Bane had stayed conscious through the torture of the electricity cooking him alive and the agony of the teeth burrowing into his flesh. But the indescribable pain from the chemicals released by the exploding orbalisks dissolving his body on a cellular level finally caused him to black out... only to wake up here.
Credit: Rule of Two
There are numerous indications of Bane's injuries and their severity, but this one should do fine. Things like, "cooking" him alive and "dissloving his body on a cellular level" is more than enough indication for me. Similar things( though slightly more severe) happened to Anakin, and he was literally reduced to nothing compared to his former self. Degradation of the body on such extreme basis destroys the midichlorians and lessens your potential.
And "slight" physical degradation? In just 5 years, the degradation would be so much that Zannah could dispatch him with almost no risk at all. That isn't slight degradation in the remotest. If anything, it only adds to the notion that he has lost power after ROT.
Nothing disproves the possibility of Bane making up for the loss of power from the orbalisks with a substantial increase in willpower (which is corroborated by evidence), increased knowledge of the Dark Side (which is again corroborated by evidence), and more time practicing studying and mastering the Dark Side (As of DOE Bane has spent nearly twice as much time working to master the Dark Side as he had by the end of ROT), so the notion that losing the Orbalisks is evidence of some glass ceiling any further incarnation of Bane is incapable of breaking is a faulty one.
I don't see why those advantages would be "so" humongous as you claim. First of all, he has lost a lot of power due to the loss of his orbalisks. And the study that he puts in the force is more indeed, but even as of ROT he was obsessed with the force and other knowledge of the Sith, and unlike DoE, was utterly secluded, meaning that he would have more time to study in the first place, even if he may not have used it to its fullest. Suggesting that he spends "much" more time mastering the dark side or whatever in DoE, is a considerable stretch that I haven't seen evidence for.
Indeed, his knowledge and mastery increased, as he himself notes it. But his raw power has decreased. Or rather, the power he can bring to bear in the manifestation of those abilities has decreased. We can argue whether DoE Bane vs ROT Bane, and whose advantages would be prevalent, but ROT Bane, on Tython has more raw power and strength in the force than DoE Bane.
And a comparison of Bane's physical abilities displayed in ROT and DOE paints DOE Bane showcases DOE Bane as having superior physical abilities and at the very least comparable ones, which is evidence of power growth since, as you've mentioned before, it relates to Force augmentation. The evidence you have used to try and suggest ROT Bane>DOE Bane physically wasn't specifically referring to ROT Bane while a direct physical comparison between the two paints DOE Bane in a more favorable light.
Actually it doesn't. The very fact that Bane has lost strength and speed after ROT, means that his power and its channelization into augmentation has decreased.
Yes it was. It was referring to Bane as he has appeared in his direct previous incarnation, i.e. ROT. Suggesting otherwise, is completely arbitrary.
@lordofthelight: I have to work extensively on a college project today, but I'll respond at some point.
@emperordmb What are you taking in college?
@lordofthelight: Mechanical engineering
Round 1: I don't see why Traya wouldn't abuse her force powers against so many opponents, like she did against the assassins and against the council. However, her opponents are all very powerful in the force, so she likely loses.
Round 2-6: The B team just outclasses their foes.
Round 7: Dooku is quite adept at using sabers and force against comparable teams. He annihilates Kit Fisto with makashi, and quite frankly, he can at least relive pressure by TKing or using lightning, like he's done against superior foes like Kenobi, Grievous, Ventress, and Oppress.
@lordofthelight: I hope this exchange doesn't die off. I do want to see how it goes
But a few questions of my own as I made this thread with secondary purpose of helping my placing of these characters.
How do you reconcile Zannah noting Bane is faster than ever (and Zannah has dueled the obalisk empowered Bane) in their final duel with your idea of him being slower?
While I would agree that Bane would have lost some of his force potential, how much really? Despite losing all four limbs and being burnt similarly to Bane. Anakin only lost 60% of his power. Bane would have suffered far less than that.
Also this idea that Bane would have grown weaker only flies assuming that Bane had reached his max potential in PoD.
I find it hard to believe given all the knowledge, training and research that Bane preformed post PoD that he didn't improve to a great degree, during and after the orbalisks.
There's also Zannah to consider. Who unlike Bane had a very clear line of development, yet in the end only barely beat her master by, to be blunt, basically cheating and drawing on a nexus. Even as a child Zannah has done some insane things. Considering her development and that Bane kept pace despite a massive setback in his own development seems to imply that his potential was still incredible. Especially since even when Bane still had his full potential,Zannah still was the more inherently powerful.
You should know that I did take the time to rather vigorously grill DMB about his logic regarding this. While I don't hold Bane quite as high as him. He did convince me that he was (at that time as Dooku has received new scaling recently that changes his ranking) Dooku+.
I'm interested to see how this goes. But I was hoping you could answer these points.
Maul - Dooku - Vader are all above of Bane, he is not only above of Maul, some users are really obsessed with lowballing Maul...
@greysentinel365: Maybe Maul should be a bit lower and Traya a bit higher, I guess. Caedus can be above SoR Revan, though it's obviously debatable.
Other than that, no.
Best to put Maul on level 7 tier characters and put Dooku on level 9 tier characters, that would complete your Maul lowballing and Dooku highballing.
How do you reconcile Zannah noting Bane is faster than ever (and Zannah has dueled the obalisk empowered Bane) in their final duel with your idea of him being slower?
First of all, that's Zannah's opinion, whereas the ones stating that Bane grew slower are objective statements from the author and Bane himself. I think I'd give the latter a lot more credit.
Second, Zannah has directly compared Bane's speed to the times that she has "practiced" with him, over the years from ROT to DoE. She explicitly says that he was holding back something in reserve during their practice sessions. And then she compares that to him being faster than ever. The comparison is direct here:
During her years under Bane, they had sparred hundreds of times. During these sessions she had always known he was keeping something in reserve for the day they would inevitably fight for real. Only now did she realize just how much he had been holding back.
He was faster than she could ever have imagined, and he was using new sequences and unfamiliar moves he had never revealed during their practice sessions. But somehow she had survived the initial flurry, and now she knew what to expect.
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
It is clear that she compares him being faster than ever to the practice sessions they had. What's more, that was just the single exchange, wherein she was taken by surprise at his speed which would have been a lot higher than when they had sparred for all those years. She quickly recovers and rallies after that, which lends all the more credibility to the idea that she was just caught off guard, by his speed, which she notes is higher than what he displayed during their practice sessions.
See the next exchange:
He was faster than she could ever have imagined, and he was using new sequences and unfamiliar moves he had never revealed during their practice sessions. But somehow she had survived the initial flurry, and now she knew what to expect.
The next exchange had a more familiar feel. Bane pressed the action with a devastating, complex combination of attacks, but Zannah was able to intercept, parry, or deflect each one. Her defensive style was simple, but performed correctly it was nearly impenetrable.
Recognizing this, Bane backed off and changed tactics. Instead of a savage, relentless pressure meant to overwhelm her, he settled into a pattern of feints and quick thrusts, probing and prodding her defenses in search of a weakness as the two of them settled in for a long battle of attrition.
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
Bane can't overwhelm her with either speed or strength. It is here that he has to resort to his increased knowledge, mastery and skills to keep Zannah at bay.
She directly compares the two:
Recognizing this, Bane backed off and changed tactics. Instead of a savage, relentless pressure meant to overwhelm her, he settled into a pattern of feints and quick thrusts, probing and prodding her defenses in search of a weakness as the two of them settled in for a long battle of attrition.
Zannah had fought him once before, back when he was still encased in his orbalisk armor. She remembered it had been like battling a force of nature: the chitinous parasites covering his entire body had been impervious to lightsaber attacks, allowing him to attack with pure animal rage. She had survived that encounter only by convincing Bane she hadn't betrayed him, and in the end he had let her live.
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
The text makes it clear that she was being overwhelmed previously whereas here, she is content to play the defensive:
She was being driven back in a slow retreat, and she realized he was herding her toward the shuttles, hoping to pin her against the metal hull with no place to go. Zannah was content to play along, taking quick, careful steps backward over the soft, sandy terrain as she began to gather her power.
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
In fact, she is in control here, and from the text, it is plain that the two are equals, with maybe a slight margin of an edge to Bane.
Zannah then gets unlucky and trips on the graves, which allows Bane to get the advantage, and Zannah has to resort to her sorcery after that.
She fell into a defensive posture as she so often had during their training sessions. But this was no drill, and her Master came at her with a speed and ferocity she had never faced before. Giving in to his orbalisk-fueled bloodrage, he was like a wild animal, raining savage blows down on her from all angles, the strikes coming so fast it seemed as if he wielded a dozen blades at the same time. Zannah fell into a full retreat, desperately giving ground beneath the overwhelming assault.
"I did not betray you, Master!" she shouted, trying to make Bane see reason before he cleaved her in two. "I lured Hetton here so you could kill him!"
She ducked under a horizontal cut from his lightsaber, only to catch a heavy boot in her ribs. She rolled with the kick, narrowly avoiding the return cut of his blade. She parried a sharp descending blow, gathered her feet under her, and launched herself backward, flipping ten meters clear.
"Listen to me, Master!" she shouted now that she had put some distance between them. "If I wanted to betray you, why didn't I help them during the-oooffff!"
Bane hit her with a powerful Force throw, sending her hurtling backward. Only the barrier she had instinctively thrown up at the last second to shield herself saved her bones from being shattered by the concussive force of the impact.
She scrambled to her feet and twirled her lightsaber before her, creating what she hoped would be an impenetrable wall of defense. Instead of trying to pierce her guard, Bane leapt high in the air and came down almost right on top of her. She deftly parried his blade, redirecting it to the side as she spun away to keep his body from slamming into her. But Bane caught her on the chin with his elbow as she turned, the blow snapping her head back. Her body went limp, her weapon dropped from her nerveless fingers, and she crumpled to the ground.
For a second she saw nothing but stars. Her vision cleared to reveal the image of Darth Bane looming above her, his blade raised for the coup de grace.
"I only did this for you, Master!" she shouted up at him, ignoring the throbbing pain in her jaw. "I only wanted to bring you the key to creating a Holocron!"
Credit: Rule of Two
This is what happened the last time she fought Bane. This makes it somewhat plain that she would have been destroyed had the fight continued on. Whereas she is controlling the fight, and waging a long battle of attrition with him and is "content" to play the defensive in DoE.
Clearly she is matching him exponentially better in DoE than she is in ROT. Which is something apparent.
And to finally seal this off: She faced Bane in ROT when he was on neutral ground. So the scaling, which is false anyways, even if we take it as true, cannot be applied because the bulk of his impressive feats in ROT took place on Tython, a bastion of dark side power which would have amped him substantially, which happened after their duel in ROT. So that scaling, even if it were originally true, cannot be applied to Bane who was on Tython.
So, as far as I am concerned, the scaling fails on every front, be it with regards to the context, or with regards to technicality.
While I would agree that Bane would have lost some of his force potential, how much really? Despite losing all four limbs and being burnt similarly to Bane. Anakin only lost 60% of his power. Bane would have suffered far less than that.
Anakin lost a "massive" amount of "power". The ROTS novel explicitly states that he is a mere shadow of what he once was. I'd say he would have lost much, much more than just 60% of his "power".
And the quote refers to ROTJ Vader who should be infinitely more powerful than just suited Vader. Besides, Vader really isn't 80% of Sidious's power if one just takes a look at what they have done. Many interpret the quote to be Vader's potential instead of active power.
Also this idea that Bane would have grown weaker only flies assuming that Bane had reached his max potential in PoD.
I am saying that he grew weaker after ROT ends, not when he is encased in orbalisks.
I find it hard to believe given all the knowledge, training and research that Bane preformed post PoD that he didn't improve to a great degree, during and after the orbalisks.
He improved during the orbalisks, as I already stated and by a good amount. If he didn't and PoD was his max, then I'd say people like Kit Fisto would have beaten him with ease.
He is weaker in DoE than he is in ROT. The main idea is to portray that he has grown in skill, wisdom and experience, and has lost his raw power and the deep strength he possessed in the force. What I am saying is that DoE Bane, is weaker and inferior to ROT Bane( late).
There's also Zannah to consider. Who unlike Bane had a very clear line of development, yet in the end only barely beat her master by, to be blunt, basically cheating and drawing on a nexus. Even as a child Zannah has done some insane things. Considering her development and that Bane kept pace despite a massive setback in his own development seems to imply that his potential was still incredible. Especially since even when Bane still had his full potential,Zannah still was the more inherently powerful.
Both Obi Wan and Maul have done better things than Zannah. Even as children. The fact that Obi Wan when drawing on his reserves as much as Maul is( due to anger) is an outright rival to him, despite having vastly inferior training and practice suggests that their potential is relatively close. And Maul being a potential successor to the rule of two completely annihilates Zannah's own potential. Even by feats they are ahead.
I have already explained the context regarding their duel in DoE. Both were roughly equal until Zannah tripped on the graves, which allowed Bane to inflict multiple physical injuries on her. Which decreased her momentum and she had to resort to sorcery.
And Zannah was a full decade younger than Bane. A full decade. More than that perhaps. And she was roughly equal to Bane. If we match Zannah at her prime to Bane as of DoE, I wouldn't expect it to even be a contest.
Besides, the fact that Bane was growing weaker is stated outright, when he himself admits that in 5 years Zannah would beat him with almost no risk at all. I mean, there are plenty of evidences in the matter.
Keep it coming. I would like to engage DMB. He has aptitude and is a worthy opponent.
@lordofthelight: ......... OK this is weird. That is literally the exact same argument I raised with DMB when I grilled him about this as I mentioned.
Literally the exact same points and comparisons. Like, here is his first response in the PM (my initial argument is in the quotes). Also this argument is from nearly a year ago so if it's cringe worthy I apologize. I'll highlight the parts that give me Deja vu
"I believe that this statement has a different meaning within the context of the novel. Bane kept careful track of Zannah's development and obviously held back during their practice sessions, leading Zannah to the conclusion that she could now defeat him and thus her initiation of a confrontation on Ambria. Expecting to be able to defeat Bane based on their practice sessions.
IMO what Zannah is stating here is that Bane was faster than she imagined him based on their sparring matches. As she would be aware of his drop in power after the removal of the Orbalisks and had assumed that they were equals based on those matches.
First of all, Zannah makes no mention of DOE Bane being weaker in the Force than ROT Bane. Secondly, the quote says Bane was faster than Zannah "could've ever imagined", which means regardless of her perspective and opinion, no perspective Zannah has or previously had involves Bane being that fast. Not to mention this difference in speed is shown by ROT Bane only landing physical blows on ROT Zannah after driving her back a considerable distance, whereas DOE Bane is fast enough to land a couple of physical blows on Zannah at the very beginning of their duel, noting again that DOE Zannah would've been considerably faster given her speed feats and considerable improvement in the Force.
Zannah is stating that he exceeded her expectations, not that he was more powerful than ever before. Even then I'm not completely willing to take this on good faith considering the extremely powerful nexus the duel took place on
The nexus is completely and utterly meaningless to the comparison for three reasons:
1. Both Bane and Zannah are Sith so a dark side nexus would not inherently favor one of them over the other.
2. Both of the fights between Bane and Zannah took place on Ambria, so the circumstances of the two of their fights wouldn't be different.
3. The Dark Side power of Ambria was stated to be locked away by Kun, with Bane being incapable of drawing upon its power in POD, and the power confirmed as being buried and locked away from use until Zannah tapped deep into the planet for the creation of her dark side tendrils at the end of the duel.
Finally, if my assertions were wrong, then the two duels would make no sense in comparison to each other. DOE Zannah only survived the initial assault of DOE Bane with immense difficulty. A far weaker incarnation in ROT Zannah would've been straight [Censored] against DOE Bane's initial assault and would've certainly not survived, yet she survived a lengthier period of time than that against ROT Bane. Plus, ROT Zannah was far more inexperienced and more caught off guard than she was against DOE Bane. It's apparent from this that DOE Bane is the superior offensive dueling force to ROT Bane, which would make absolutely no sense if my assertions weren't true.
If my assertions aren't true, then ROT Bane possesses the advantage of not having to worry about defense, the advantage of a greater connection into the Force (which is noted to factor heavily into dueling as one of the most important factors), the advantage of far better physical capabilities (between greater power in the Force and the chemical physical augmentation bestowed by the orbalisks), with DOE Bane only possessing an edge in technical skill, and I find the notion of that skill outweighing everything else to a considerable enough degree for the difference in performance so unlikely it borders on impossible.
On the other hand if my assertion is true things make a lot more sense. DOE Bane would possess a considerably greater connection to the Force as well as greater physical capabilities and greater skill, which would very feasibly outweigh ROT Bane's advantage of not having to worry about defense well enough to lead to the difference in performance between the two Banes."
A lot (And I mean a lot) of your points are things I initially tried as well. So I might leave this to @emperordmb. This might be like watching history repeat.
But one thing I will address is.
Anakin lost a "massive" amount of "power". The ROTS novel explicitly states that he is a mere shadow of what he once was. I'd say he would have lost much, much more than just 60% of his "power".
And the quote refers to ROTJ Vader who should be infinitely more powerful than just suited Vader. Besides, Vader really isn't 80% of Sidious's power if one just takes a look at what they have done. Many interpret the quote to be Vader's potential instead of active power.
Anakin's potential was stated to be twice that of Sidious. Vader's potential is 80% of Sidious. That's a 60% loss. Vader lost all four extremities and was burned similarly to Bane and mutilated afterwards with his reconstruction. Through all this he suffered only a 60% loss of potential.
Bane injuries (while severe in their own right) weren't that drastic. So the idea that he would lose even half of his potential is kind of nonsensical. 20-30% at most. Even though it's impossible to assign such numbers to Bane. We do know from a very similar case within SW that substantially worse mutilation did not result in such a drastic drop.
So no I don't think Bane's injuries debilitated him in terms of raw power to the degree you suggested.
While I don't want DMB to endanger his studies for this (priorities) I would like to see this through to conclusion.
You, I think are missing the point of what I am trying to say:
Anakin's potential was stated to be twice that of Sidious. Vader's potential is 80% of Sidious. That's a 60% loss. Vader lost all four extremities and was burned similarly to Bane and mutilated afterwards with his reconstruction. Through all this he suffered only a 60% loss of potential.
But he suffered a much greater loss in actual power. Potential loss is all and good, but the actualized power he could bring to the table was much much lesser than what he could before he was burned. Which is also a major point I am trying to make.
Vader lost 3 limbs, one of which was a cybernetic one. That's the main difference between him and Bane. Which isn't even close to being as large as you are making it out to be.
Finally, if my assertions were wrong, then the two duels would make no sense in comparison to each other. DOE Zannah only survived the initial assault of DOE Bane with immense difficulty. A far weaker incarnation in ROT Zannah would've been straight [Censored] against DOE Bane's initial assault and would've certainly not survived, yet she survived a lengthier period of time than that against ROT Bane. Plus, ROT Zannah was far more inexperienced and more caught off guard than she was against DOE Bane. It's apparent from this that DOE Bane is the superior offensive dueling force to ROT Bane, which would make absolutely no sense if my assertions weren't true.
Which is inherently wrong. Zannah was caught "off guard" with his speed only in the first exchange, wherein she states that it is faster than he made it, in their practice sessions. The comparisons she is trying to raise here is with Bane keeping something in reserve during their practice sessions and then comparing it to Bane as he appeared to her at the start. The text makes it clear that she quickly recovered her composure and took the initiative turning it into a long batle of attrition and being content to play the defensive. A much much better position for her than what she was in ROT.
ROT Zannah was owned by Bane, whereas even DoE Zannah was caught off guard. But the latter managed to recover in time, whereas ROT Zannah got screwed and had to resort to begging. She was simply outmatched, wholly so. And she was performing on even grounds with Bane before she tripped in DoE.
First of all, Zannah makes no mention of DOE Bane being weaker in the Force than ROT Bane. Secondly, the quote says Bane was faster than Zannah "could've ever imagined", which means regardless of her perspective and opinion, no perspective Zannah has or previously had involves Bane being that fast. Not to mention this difference in speed is shown by ROT Bane only landing physical blows on ROT Zannah after driving her back a considerable distance, whereas DOE Bane is fast enough to land a couple of physical blows on Zannah at the very beginning of their duel, noting again that DOE Zannah would've been considerably faster given her speed feats and considerable improvement in the Force.
He is using technicality there. Which is wrong again, as Bane wasn't amped on Ambria, but he was on Tython. So Bane can't be scaled off his feats on Tython at all.
And then again, that is "just" Zannah's opinion. Whereas you have multiple assertions by both Bane and the author that he has definitively reduced in both speed and strength, as well as the direct statement that in 5 years he would be dispatched by Zannah with no risk at all, which confirms that he degraded and was reducing in his abilities all the time. Now tell me, do you really wish to take the opinion of someone who was just caught off guard by his speed which he hadn't shown for a long time, and was keeping in reserve( never mind the fact that she wasn't phased by it at all after that single exchange), or do you want to take those multiple direct confirmations of his reduced speed and strength and the fact that he was degrading all around all of which have been directly stated point blank? I can say that without hesitation, I would take the latter.
And again, due to him being nexus amped on Tython, whereas he wasn't so on Ambria, means that his feats on Tython can't be scaled off at all.
1. Both Bane and Zannah are Sith so a dark side nexus would not inherently favor one of them over the other.
Which is irrelevant as neither of them were amped in ROT, before they entered Tython. The only time they fought was before that in Ambria and neither of them were amped there. In fact, only Zannah managed to make use of that power and that too, only in DoE.
2. Both of the fights between Bane and Zannah took place on Ambria, so the circumstances of the two of their fights wouldn't be different.
Again, at worst possible case, Bane's feats on Tython can't be scaled. Besides, I have already said that neither of them were amped on Ambria in ROT and the only help gotten from there was when Zannah resorted to using the tendrils in DoE.
My point isn't to say that either of them were amped or to compare their fights when they were amped or whatever at all. They weren't. Not for the first fight, and not for the second( with that wildcard pulled by Zannah being the only exception). The point is that Bane as of Tython, can't be scaled because there he was actively being amped by a nexus which was a bastion of dark side power( he could sense it even before entering the temple), and this was after their duel in ROT.
I have also stated the other comparisons. I don't see how his points there contradict what I have said. He hasn't addressed or you haven't raised the Zannah's opinion point either.
A lot (And I mean a lot) of your points are things I initially tried as well. So I might leave this to @emperordmb. This might be like watching history repeat.
No, a lot of your points are different. I also don't think you have/had understood what I am trying to say here, exactly.
Stops at Malgus
I was thinking this too, honestly.
8 or 9, and caedus wrecks revan imo
No. Not at all.
@lordofthelight: A lot of text has been posted here, so I'll only respond to some key points since I'm rather busy.
Almost the entirety of your argument hinges on the notion that DOE Bane doesn't get upward linear scaling from ROT Bane since you've already conceded ROT Bane gets some solid upward linear scaling from POD Bane:
Regardless, this doesn't matter that much, as per the scaling you have already given. Which is why I am not using this as a direct evidence, as I mentioned the ROT blurb that stated him more powerful than before.
So I see no reason to haggle over ROT Bane's upward scaling from that feat anymore.
The main point that your assertion for DOE Bane being weaker than ROT Bane hinges upon is the notion that the beginning of DOE made a physical comparison between the two, as you've stated several several times:
Pardon me, but what you are suggesting here is that he would somehow compare himself to some random point in the past, "before" he was covered with orbalisks? Despite being out of them for around a decade now? Despite being covered by them for a decade? This is quite a blatant appeal to ignorance, as one that I have ever seen.
This is a continuity. The author intends for the story to progress and for the characters involved to change "from" their previous selves. Their direct previous selves. As they appeared in previous works of the author, and in this case, as Bane appears and how he is different from ROT and DOE, which is what is indicated. Suggesting that he isn't comparing with his ROT self, and is just making a random comparison with the "past" before ROT which is completely arbitrary, is just ridiculous.
Actually it doesn't. The very fact that Bane has lost strength and speed after ROT, means that his power and its channelization into augmentation has decreased.
Yes it was. It was referring to Bane as he has appeared in his direct previous incarnation, i.e. ROT. Suggesting otherwise, is completely arbitrary.
First of all, that's Zannah's opinion, whereas the ones stating that Bane grew slower are objective statements from the author and Bane himself. I think I'd give the latter a lot more credit.
He is weaker in DoE than he is in ROT. The main idea is to portray that he has grown in skill, wisdom and experience, and has lost his raw power and the deep strength he possessed in the force. What I am saying is that DoE Bane, is weaker and inferior to ROT Bane( late).
Besides, the fact that Bane was growing weaker is stated outright, when he himself admits that in 5 years Zannah would beat him with almost no risk at all. I mean, there are plenty of evidences in the matter.
And then again, that is "just" Zannah's opinion. Whereas you have multiple assertions by both Bane and the author that he has definitively reduced in both speed and strength, as well as the direct statement that in 5 years he would be dispatched by Zannah with no risk at all, which confirms that he degraded and was reducing in his abilities all the time. Now tell me, do you really wish to take the opinion of someone who was just caught off guard by his speed which he hadn't shown for a long time, and was keeping in reserve( never mind the fact that she wasn't phased by it at all after that single exchange), or do you want to take those multiple direct confirmations of his reduced speed and strength and the fact that he was degrading all around all of which have been directly stated point blank? I can say that without hesitation, I would take the latter.
Your argument against my attempt to use physical capability evidence in support of DOE Bane being more powerful than ROT Bane hinges on the notion that the text was drawing a comparison between DOE Bane and ROT Bane that directly contradicts and invalidates my stance. You also hold the position that the physical degradation to Bane's body was rather extreme and constitutes a notable loss of cellular tissue on his part that seriously hampers his ability to wield the Force, and that the decline in his physical abilities wasn't slight or marginal:
Right. So, first of all, his body had degraded, and severely at that, due to the loss of the orbalisks and the damage his own lightning and the subsequent events had wrought on that? You don't deny that do you?
And he also notes that his body would be a ruined husk in 5 years, and that Zannah could dispatch him with virtually no risk at all?
I am not referring to physical degradation, but rather the degradation of flesh. And extreme degradation of flesh that involves literally "cooking" of it. Not the body as it degrades over with age. Perhaps a better example would be in order, that of Anakin Skywalker? We all know in what condition Bane was after what happened on Tython. The injuries may not be the exact same as Anakin's but they are similar.
There are numerous indications of Bane's injuries and their severity, but this one should do fine. Things like, "cooking" him alive and "dissloving his body on a cellular level" is more than enough indication for me. Similar things( though slightly more severe) happened to Anakin, and he was literally reduced to nothing compared to his former self. Degradation of the body on such extreme basis destroys the midichlorians and lessens your potential.
And "slight" physical degradation? In just 5 years, the degradation would be so much that Zannah could dispatch him with almost no risk at all. That isn't slight degradation in the remotest. If anything, it only adds to the notion that he has lost power after ROT.
...
But lets look at the text of Dynasty of Evil and what it actually says:
Bane knew he might never live to see that day. He was in his mid-forties now, and the first faint scars of time and age had begun to leave their marks on his body. Yet he had dedicated himself to the idea that one day, even if it took centuries, the Sith-his Sith-would rule the galaxy.
As he continued to ignore the aches and pains that inevitably accompanied the first half of his nightly regime, Bane's movements began to pick up speed. The air hissed and crackled as it was split time and time again by the crimson blade that had become an extension of his indomitable will.
He still cut an imposing figure. The powerful muscles built up during a youth spent working the mines on Apatros rippled beneath his skin, flexing with each slash and strike of his lightsaber. But a tiny sliver of the brute strength he once possessed had been whittled away.
He leapt high in the air, his lightsaber arcing above his head before chopping straight down in a blow powerful enough to cleave an enemy in two. His feet hit the hard surface of the courtyard stones with a sharp, sudden smack as he landed. Bane still moved with fierce grace and terrifying intensity. His lightsaber still flickered with blinding speed as he performed his martial drills, yet it was the merest fraction slower than it had once been.
The aging process was subtle, but inescapable. Bane accepted this; what he lost in strength and speed he could easily compensate for with wisdom, knowledge, and experience.
Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil
Age was beginning to take its toll on Bane, but it was nothing compared with the toll already wrought upon his body by decades of drawing upon the dark side of the Force. He couldn't help but smile at the grim irony: through the dark side he had access to near-infinite power, but it was power that came with a terrible cost. Flesh and bone lacked the strength to withstand the unfathomable energy unleashed by the Force. The unquenchable fire of the dark side was consuming him, devouring him bit by bit. After decades of focusing and channeling its power, his body was beginning to break down.
His condition was exacerbated by the lingering effects of the orbalisk armor that had been killing him even as it gifted him with incredible strength and speed.
The parasites had pushed his body well beyond its natural limits, aging him prematurely and intensifying the degeneration wrought by the power of the dark side. The orbalisks were gone now, but their damage could not be undone.
Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil
It's noted that the aging process was only subtle at that point in time, and that his body had only begun to break down under dark side degeneration "after decades of focusing and channeling it's power" which means Dark Side degradation only begun to actually impact him within two years of Dynasty of Evil since before that point it had not been decades. The injuries Bane received on Tython can't be compared to Darth Vader's injuries in terms of their impact because first of all Bane actually made a rather full recovery from those injuries, said injuries are not mentioned as a reason for his bodily issues in Dynasty of Evil, and the negative effects of the Orbalisks are only stated to have contributed to his aging and dark side degradation, both of which are stated to have only recently begun to have an impact on him, and the combination of both of which have thus far only lead to a marginal decrease in his strength and speed. The physical state Bane would be in in five years is irrelevant to the fact that a combination of all of the factors you've mentioned have only lead to a slight physical decline as of Dynasty of Evil, and you are seriously overblowing how extensive it is as of this point in time.
Not only that but the premise that the text is specifically referring to Bane's speed and strength decreasing from where they were at in Rule of Two is unfounded. My position on the matter is that after Bane lost the Orbalisks, his continued practice and study of the Dark Side allowed him to reach a greater height of power than he was at when he was in Rule of Two in the decade between Rule of Two and Dynasty of Evil, which allowed him to reach a higher level of physical capability via Force augmentation. The text in Dynasty of Evil saying Bane's physical capabilities have begun to decline from some unspecified point in time doesn't preclude him reaching a higher level of overall physical ability through Force augmentation in the decade between ROT and DOE and then declining from that point, so the notion that this is evidence that contradicts my stance is faulty since nothing in the text actually contradicts what I am saying. This is reinforced by the text stating that degradation due to age and dark side power had only begun more recently than ROT. And my stance also doesn't contradict the point that that passage is meant to establish, which is that Bane is beginning to decline and needs to find a solution to the problem of physical degradation over time in case Zannah fails or a similar situation befalls others in his line of Sith.
You were overblowing the extent of Bane's physical degradation which had only recently begun and was only slight, and you're suggesting it contradicts my stance when the text itself doesn't contradict any of the points I am making.
Another point you make is that Bane losing his Orbalisks marks his ROT incarnation as a glass ceiling of power he is incapable of cracking without the Orbalisks:
I don't see why those advantages would be "so" humongous as you claim. First of all, he has lost a lot of power due to the loss of his orbalisks. And the study that he puts in the force is more indeed, but even as of ROT he was obsessed with the force and other knowledge of the Sith, and unlike DoE, was utterly secluded, meaning that he would have more time to study in the first place, even if he may not have used it to its fullest. Suggesting that he spends "much" more time mastering the dark side or whatever in DoE, is a considerable stretch that I haven't seen evidence for.
Indeed, his knowledge and mastery increased, as he himself notes it. But his raw power has decreased. Or rather, the power he can bring to bear in the manifestation of those abilities has decreased. We can argue whether DoE Bane vs ROT Bane, and whose advantages would be prevalent, but ROT Bane, on Tython has more raw power and strength in the force than DoE Bane.
DOE Bane would have less potential or "raw" power than ROT Bane of course, but unless you're suggesting Bane reached the limits of his potential as of ROT, then nothing precludes him from advancing his mastery of the Force and ability to harness his potential to the extent at which DOE Bane would have more actualized power than ROT Bane, which is the only thing relevant to combat. And yes, the amount of practice, knowledge, and mastery of the Dark Side DOE Bane has compared to ROT Bane is rather humongous since Bane has spent nearly twice as much time as of DOE (when he had studied and practiced the Dark Side for 22 years) studying the Dark Side than as of ROT (when he had studied and practiced the Dark Side for 12 years). So the notion that DOE Bane has a considerable edge in mastery and knowledge in comparison to ROT Bane is not that far fetched. And there was also a substantial increase in willpower from ROT to DOE that I've noted before, and willpower is stated by Sidious to be a major component of Dark Side power.
There was indeed a tradeoff where ROT Bane has the Orbalisk amp and DOE Bane has significantly greater willpower and has spent a lot more time studying the dark side and mastering/actualizing his potential, so the notion that you can be cut and dry when suggesting which incarnation has more actualized power from these details is a faulty one. From these details alone it could be either one of them, which is why I draw a physical comparison between the two in a way that is definitively a comparison between ROT and DOE Bane, not DOE Bane and some undisclosed point in the past.
But to address your counter arguments against that:
First of all, that's Zannah's opinion, whereas the ones stating that Bane grew slower are objective statements from the author and Bane himself. I think I'd give the latter a lot more credit.
Considering that the ones stating that Bane grew slower don't actually contradict what Zannah's opinion is asserting, and considering Zannah has trained under Bane for the past two decades, dueled against him in an orbalisk bloodlust, and witnessed him in an orbalisk bloodlust on Tython, I'd say her opinion is rather well informed. In the absence of any evidence legitimately contradicting that opinion, I'd take the implications of that opinion over nothing.
Second, Zannah has directly compared Bane's speed to the times that she has "practiced" with him, over the years from ROT to DoE. She explicitly says that he was holding back something in reserve during their practice sessions. And then she compares that to him being faster than ever.
It is clear that she compares him being faster than ever to the practice sessions they had.
This doesn't really do anything to counter the argument that Bane was faster than she could've ever imagined due to being faster than he was in ROT though. If he had indeed increased in speed since ROT, the reason Zannah wouldn't have been aware of the full extent of his speed would've still been because he didn't display it to its fullest extent in the sparring matches. The fact that she wasn't aware of the full extent of his speed because he hadn't displayed it in sparring matches doesn't preclude him from being faster than he was in ROT.
What's more, that was just the single exchange, wherein she was taken by surprise at his speed which would have been a lot higher than when they had sparred for all those years. She quickly recovers and rallies after that, which lends all the more credibility to the idea that she was just caught off guard, by his speed, which she notes is higher than what he displayed during their practice sessions.
Now tell me, do you really wish to take the opinion of someone who was just caught off guard by his speed which he hadn't shown for a long time, and was keeping in reserve( never mind the fact that she wasn't phased by it at all after that single exchange), or do you want to take those multiple direct confirmations of his reduced speed and strength and the fact that he was degrading all around all of which have been directly stated point blank? I can say that without hesitation, I would take the latter.
So the implication you are making here is that Zannah's assessment is one of pure surprise, however she made that assessment at the exact same time as she had noted that "she now knew what to expect" so she clearly had regained her composure at that point in time. So the notion that her opinion is invalid is faulty, and it is in fact the most valid indication we have since the evidence you keep referring to is not a direct comparison between ROT and DOE Bane.
And lastly, you suggest that a comparison of the two fights is an unfair comparison since DOE Zannah was caught off guard:
What's more, that was just the single exchange, wherein she was taken by surprise at his speed which would have been a lot higher than when they had sparred for all those years. She quickly recovers and rallies after that, which lends all the more credibility to the idea that she was just caught off guard, by his speed, which she notes is higher than what he displayed during their practice sessions.
Which is inherently wrong. Zannah was caught "off guard" with his speed only in the first exchange, wherein she states that it is faster than he made it, in their practice sessions.
However the fact of the matter is that ROT Zannah was caught even more off guard than DOE Zannah was. Like DOE Zannah, ROT Zannah was caught off guard by how different Bane's speed was to his sparring speed (and likely even moreso considering ROT Bane would've almost certainly held back more than DOE Bane in his spars with her to account for her lower skill level):
She fell into a defensive posture as she so often had during their training sessions. But this was no drill, and her Master came at her with a speed and ferocity she had never faced before.
Rule of Two
Yet ROT Zannah was even more caught off guard considering that while DOE Zannah had her weapons ignited and was expecting and ready for a fight, ROT Zannah barely activated her lightsaber in time and was completely surprised by the fact that Bane was attacking her:
When it was over her Master turned to face her. She waited for him to demand an explanation, but instead he let loose with a cry and flew at her. Zannah barely had time to ignite her twin blades to meet his completely unexpected attack.
Rule of Two
And looking at the beginning of the Dynasty of Evil duel, Bane managed to stagger Zannah with the Force of his blows, and move fast enough to make physical contact with her and almost smash her face in within the first sequence.
There's no doubt that DOE Zannah matched Bane in a duel more evenly than ROT Zannah did, but if what you are suggesting is that ROT Bane is physically faster and stronger than DOE Bane, yet didn't immediately eviscerate a more caught off guard, slower, physically weaker, less experienced, less skilled, less adept with sensing opponent's incoming attacks through the Force Zannah with his speed and strength as it is abundantly apparent DOE Bane would've done in that situation, then I simply don't buy that.
And then lastly there's the fact that DOE Bane injured DOE Zannah with a kick to the ribs while ROT Bane failed to inflict any lasting injury to ROT Zannah with a kick to the ribs immediately followed up with slamming her back with a telekinetic blast, despite the fact that given DOE Zannah's greater physical augmentation her physical durability would've been considerably greater as of DOE.
So when looking at the evidence of which incarnation of Bane is faster and stronger, your evidence for ROT Bane being faster and stronger is textual evidence that doesn't even definitively compare ROT Bane and DOE Bane, whereas my evidence for DOE Bane being faster than stronger consists of Zannah's own highly informed opinion at a point in the duel when she had regained her composure, a direct comparison of each Bane kicking their respective Zannah in the ribs and DOE Bane doing more damage despite DOE Zannah's superior durability to ROT Zannah, and a direct comparison that suggests DOE Bane's physicality would've pretty much instantly eviscerated ROT Zannah if you switched ROT Bane in that duel out for DOE Bane.
I have to say, from the available evidence it seems DOE Bane is faster and stronger than ROT Bane, and at some point in the decade between ROT and DOE Bane was slightly faster and stronger than he was in DOE. This interpretation fits with all of the available evidence and is not contradicted by any of the evidence. And the picture it paints is that by dint of physical augmentation, DOE Bane has more actualized power in the Force than ROT Bane.
@emperordmb Apologies for not replying. I have just recovered from a potent case of food poisoning. I'll try to have an extensive post up shortly.
The main point that your assertion for DOE Bane being weaker than ROT Bane hinges upon is the notion that the beginning of DOE made a physical comparison between the two, as you've stated several several times:
That is not the sole reason. That was mainly to invalidate your theory. Augmentation doesn't always reflect power. An example would be Obi Wan and Dooku. Dooku is noticeably more powerful than him, despite Obi Wan dazzling and blinding him with sheer speed.
Your argument against my attempt to use physical capability evidence in support of DOE Bane being more powerful than ROT Bane hinges on the notion that the text was drawing a comparison between DOE Bane and ROT Bane that directly contradicts and invalidates my stance. You also hold the position that the physical degradation to Bane's body was rather extreme and constitutes a notable loss of cellular tissue on his part that seriously hampers his ability to wield the Force, and that the decline in his physical abilities wasn't slight or marginal:
The point is, part of it is, immediately after the whole issue in ROT, Bane is at his weakest. Obviously this is the case, because he is still heavily injured. This version of Bane is much much weaker than Orbalisk Bane amped by Tython, and is also weaker than a Bane who is going to be recovered from his injuries.
But lets look at the text of Dynasty of Evil and what it actually says:
Note the above.
It's noted that the aging process was only subtle at that point in time, and that his body had only begun to break down under dark side degeneration "after decades of focusing and channeling it's power" which means Dark Side degradation only begun to actually impact him within two years of Dynasty of Evil since before that point it had not been decades. The injuries Bane received on Tython can't be compared to Darth Vader's injuries in terms of their impact because first of all Bane actually made a rather full recovery from those injuries, said injuries are not mentioned as a reason for his bodily issues in Dynasty of Evil, and the negative effects of the Orbalisks are only stated to have contributed to his aging and dark side degradation, both of which are stated to have only recently begun to have an impact on him, and the combination of both of which have thus far only lead to a marginal decrease in his strength and speed. The physical state Bane would be in in five years is irrelevant to the fact that a combination of all of the factors you've mentioned have only lead to a slight physical decline as of Dynasty of Evil, and you are seriously overblowing how extensive it is as of this point in time.
Since you want to be technical, note:
1. Decades refer to anything more than a decade. 11 years thus, can also be referred to as decades. As can 15, 16 etc.
2. It is noted that the aging process itself is subtle, not that it is "only subtle at that point of time". As in, the very life process of aging is subtle.
And I was using the injuries as a means to state that he had lost a very lot of power after his ordeal on Tython, and his potential had reduced by a lot. It was a circumstance similar to Anakin's( not the exact same) and Anakin was only a shadow of what he once was. The injuries were such that even after 23 full years, it is debatable whether he is even equal to Anakin Skywalker in the force( he is obviously an inferior lightsaber combatant).
So, Bane after recovering may very well have grown. That doesn't change the fact at all, that he can/did/may not have achieved his former power that he had when he had the orbalisks. After he lost the orbalisks, his power would have dropped, from say, 100 to 30. Between this time, he may have increased, but he increased from 30 to some value( which is most likely <100). Not from 100.
And of course, he decreased in between this timeline. So the maximum value he has after 30, the power he has in DoE is actually lesser than the maximum value.
Now:
The aging process was subtle, but inescapable.
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
The very life process of aging is subtle. As is though out by Bane. As it is in real life as well.
And:
In five years his body would be a ruined husk, and she could dispatch him with virtually no risk.
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
This indicates, that, subtle may be the aging, but Bane was deteriorating at a fast rate. This is not due to the aging but rather:
Age was beginning to take its toll on Bane, but it was nothing compared with the toll already wrought upon his body by decades of drawing upon the dark side of the Force. He couldn't help but smile at the grim irony: through the dark side he had access to near-infinite power, but it was power that came with¬ a terrible cost. Flesh and bone lacked the strength to withstand the unfathomable energy unleashed by the Force. The unquenchable fire of the dark side was consuming him, devouring him bit by bit.
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
Age isn't to blame here for the majority. It is the dark side degeneration. And it is clearly stated that the orbalisks were to blame for this for the main part:
His condition was exacerbated by the lingering effects of the orbalisk armor that had been killing him even as it gifted him with incredible strength and speed.
The parasites had pushed his body well beyond its natural limits, aging him prematurely and intensifying the degeneration wrought by the power of the dark side. The orbalisks were gone now, but their damage could not be undone.
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
So the statement that the orbalisks and their effects had nothing to do with this isn't correct.
Also:
The first outward manifestations of his failing health had been subtle: his eyes had become sunken and drawn, his skin a touch more pale and pockmarked than was normal for his age. The last year, however, had seen more pronounced deterioration, culminating with the involuntary tremor that seized his left hand with increasing frequency.
And there was nothing he could do about it. The Jedi could draw upon the light side to heal injury and disease. But the dark side was a weapon; the sick and frail did not deserve to be cured. Only the strong were worthy of survival.
He had tried to conceal the tremor from his apprentice, but Zannah was too quick, too cunning, to have missed such an obvious mark of weakness in her Master.
Bane had expected the tremor to be the catalyst Zannah needed to challenge him. Yet even now, with his body showing undeniable evidence of his growing vulnerability, she seemed content to maintain the status quo.
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
All of which states that he degenerated and degenerated to a substantial extent. Also, the degradation had been going on for quite some time. It was only recently the degradation had become very "severe".
So yes, nothing is overblown. In fact, continuous degradation for many many years and extremely severe degradation for 1 year, along with the fact that once he recovered from his injuries he would start with much much lesser power than he had during the orbalisks, is quite enough to indicate that he would not reach the level he had when he had the orbalisks.
DOE Bane would have less potential or "raw" power than ROT Bane of course, but unless you're suggesting Bane reached the limits of his potential as of ROT, then nothing precludes him from advancing his mastery of the Force and ability to harness his potential to the extent at which DOE Bane would have more actualized power than ROT Bane, which is the only thing relevant to combat. And yes, the amount of practice, knowledge, and mastery of the Dark Side DOE Bane has compared to ROT Bane is rather humongous since Bane has spent nearly twice as much time as of DOE (when he had studied and practiced the Dark Side for 22 years) studying the Dark Side than as of ROT (when he had studied and practiced the Dark Side for 12 years). So the notion that DOE Bane has a considerable edge in mastery and knowledge in comparison to ROT Bane is not that far fetched. And there was also a substantial increase in willpower from ROT to DOE that I've noted before, and willpower is stated by Sidious to be a major component of Dark Side power.
Bane after losing the orbalisks would have much, much lesser actualized power as well, not only lesser potential. Because he lost the orbalisks, a few of which will give greater boosts than a massive boost to him, and he was almost covered with them. And his severe injuries would have lessened his ability to call on the force, due to a high loss in midichlorians.
Which is what I said. If he was 100 during the orbalisks, he would be 30 after losing them( for example purposes).
There was indeed a tradeoff where ROT Bane has the Orbalisk amp and DOE Bane has significantly greater willpower and has spent a lot more time studying the dark side and mastering/actualizing his potential, so the notion that you can be cut and dry when suggesting which incarnation has more actualized power from these details is a faulty one. From these details alone it could be either one of them, which is why I draw a physical comparison between the two in a way that is definitively a comparison between ROT and DOE Bane, not DOE Bane and some undisclosed point in the past.
Well, first of all, his potential is quite lesser than before. So actualizing it, from a point where he would be much lesser than what he was when he had the orbalisks, to the point where he would surpass even his orbalisk self+ his natural potential self........Do you see the immensely massive gap he has to cover?
And as for willpower. It is nice that you brought this up, because this actually helps my case. Willpower is a way of accessing the power that you have, true. But much more important than willpower for any dark sider, is his anger and the negative emotions that he possesses. The fact that anger significantly boosts a Sith's power has been repeatedly and irrefutably established throughout the mythos. And as the text states it:
A decade earlier he would have eagerly engaged them in physical combat, his body pumped full of adrenaline released by the orbalisks that had covered his flesh. Swept up in a mindless rage, he would have carved a bloody swath through their numbers, hacking and slashing at his helpless enemies while relying on the impenetrable shells of the orbalisks to protect him from their blows.
But the orbalisks were gone now. He was no longer invulnerable to physical attacks, yet he was also no longer a slave to the primal bloodlust that used to overwhelm him.
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
So, the immense amounts of anger and bloodlust that he used to receive during his orbalisk infestation is gone in DoE. Which is also rather obvious if you compare their states of mind in the two novels.
Willpower is something neutral. It will help a Jedi as much as a Sith to actualized power. Anger and lust on the other hand, will help dark siders much more than simple strength of will will. Because they appeal directly to the dark side of the force, which will in turn, grant them power for it.
So yes, his extra willpower is more than counterbalanced by the fact that he has lost his state of immense anger and bloodlust which would grant him immense power if he still would have had them.
Considering that the ones stating that Bane grew slower don't actually contradict what Zannah's opinion is asserting, and considering Zannah has trained under Bane for the past two decades, dueled against him in an orbalisk bloodlust, and witnessed him in an orbalisk bloodlust on Tython, I'd say her opinion is rather well informed. In the absence of any evidence legitimately contradicting that opinion, I'd take the implications of that opinion over nothing.
Zannah's opinion and your eh, twisting of it is flawed as stated.
So the implication you are making here is that Zannah's assessment is one of pure surprise, however she made that assessment at the exact same time as she had noted that "she now knew what to expect" so she clearly had regained her composure at that point in time. So the notion that her opinion is invalid is faulty, and it is in fact the most valid indication we have since the evidence you keep referring to is not a direct comparison between ROT and DOE Bane.
No, she stated that he was faster than she could have ever imagined before she states that she now knew what to expect.
It's like this: You are friends with a dog on the street and play with him. Regularly play-wrestle with him and have a general feel for his strength. But then out of the blue, one day he suddenly attacks you and you think to yourself-he is faster and stronger than I ever imagined. You hold him in a firm grip and then decide, that yes, you now know what to expect from him now that you have survived his initial attack.
You are simply twisting the words of the author to suit your opinion. Her observations are "written down" after the initial fight sequence is shown. But any thoughts she would have on Bane's prowess would come immediately during the fight.
If you want to be so technical, however:
He was faster than she could ever have imagined, and he was using new sequences and unfamiliar moves he had never revealed during their practice sessions. But somehow she had survived the initial flurry, and now she knew what to expect.
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
She states that he was "using" new sequences and moves. Which means that when she was thinking this, Bane's attack had just started. But after that she states that she has survived his initial flurry and now knows what to expect. Which clearly means that the next thought was when the surprise was over and that she now knows what to expect. In other words, these two sentences are her thoughts over the course of the entire attack, the first when Bane has just begun the attack and the second when the flurry has ended. Because these are the conscious thoughts she can have while Bane attacks.
However the fact of the matter is that ROT Zannah was caught even more off guard than DOE Zannah was. Like DOE Zannah, ROT Zannah was caught off guard by how different Bane's speed was to his sparring speed (and likely even moreso considering ROT Bane would've almost certainly held back more than DOE Bane in his spars with her to account for her lower skill level):
I am addressing the fact that DoE Zannah would have been surprised at Bane's speed which would be vastly different than their practice sessions. And she was only caught by surprise for the initial flurry where clearly Bane would have given it his all.
ROT Zannah was getting wrecked. The comparison doesn't exist.
And no. ROT Zannah was less caught off guard. DoE Zannah was witnessing Bane's real speed and aggression after many years whereas she had a whole battle to witness that in ROT and was observing it with great interest.
Zannah had watched the battle with interest, taking careful note of Bane's tactics and tendencies and storing them away for later. Her Master easily dispatched Hetton and his minions, as she had expected ... though there had been a brief instant near the start of the battle when Bane had appeared vulnerable. Apparently the orbalisks were not able to fully protect him against the electrical current of the force pikes-another fact she made a point of filing away for later.
When it was over her Master turned to face her. She waited for him to demand an explanation, but instead he let loose with a cry and flew at her. Zannah barely had time to ignite her twin blades to meet his completely unexpected attack.
Credit: Rule of Two
She was even taking note of Bane's strategies and tactics throughout the battle and was storing them away for later. ROT Zannah knows her master's real speed, strength and aggression which she has observed carefully and still gets wrecked. DoE Zannah doesn't know it for many years and still fights evenly with him even in the initial flurry. It is rather apparent as to who is more surprised and disadvantaged.
There's no doubt that DOE Zannah matched Bane in a duel more evenly than ROT Zannah did, but if what you are suggesting is that ROT Bane is physically faster and stronger than DOE Bane, yet didn't immediately eviscerate a more caught off guard, slower, physically weaker, less experienced, less skilled, less adept with sensing opponent's incoming attacks through the Force Zannah with his speed and strength as it is abundantly apparent DOE Bane would've done in that situation, then I simply don't buy that.
I am not suggesting anything. It is outright stated that DoE Bane is weaker and deteriorating at an alarming rate.
And I am only using the off-guard argument as a means of nullifying any kind of comparison. Not as a means of gauging their respective performances.
As for the performance:
He opened with a series of two-handed overhead chops, using his great height to bring his blade hacking down at her from above. She easily blocked each blow, but the momentum of the crushing impact caused her to stagger back, throwing her off balance.
She recovered quickly, however, spinning out of the way when he followed up with a low, looping swipe meant to hew her off at the knees. She retaliated with a quick jab with the tip of one of her blades toward Bane's face, but he ducked his head to the side and came back with a wide-arcing, single-handed slash at chest level.
Zannah intercepted his blade with one of her own, angling her weapon so that the momentum of Bane's attack was redirected downward, sending the tip of his lightsaber into the dirt. This should have exposed him to a counterthrust, but he was already reacting to her move, driving his entire body forward into Zannah's before she could bring her weapon up.
His weight slammed into her, knocking her back as Bane snapped his neck forward. Zannah threw her head back just in time, and the head-butt that would have smashed her face glanced off her chin instead.
Scrambling to stay on her feet, Zannah raised her weapon back up, spinning the handle so that the twirling blades formed a defensive wall that repelled Bane's next half a dozen blows.
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
Do you notice anything here? Despite Zannah being caught utterly off guard, Bane....doesn't really achieve anything here. He doesn't get any kind of advantage or anything discernible that would allow him any kind of edge over his opponent, other than using his physicality to, just at the start of the flurry itself, drive Zannah back a little. A Zannah whose entire style is meant for giving ground. He doesn't get any sort of advantage here, and isn't on the top. Both are even, despite Zannah initially being at a disadvantage.
Whereas, from the ROT fight, it is obvious that Zannah is extremely desperate and is fighting at her utter maximum being pushed completely to her limits, which is why she is even able to last a couple of strikes. She isn't even able to handle that much, and has to flee from the fight. It is rather obvious that she is getting wrecked. Not as badly wrecked as Agen Kolar got by Palpatine, but still, more badly than Palpatine wrecked Maul.
There is no comparison to be had. DoE Zannah is significantly better than ROT Zannah, but she was fighting with Bane as an equal even in the initial flurry when she was caught completely by surprise moreso than in ROT, whereas ROT Zannah was getting wrecked despite her surprise being lesser than DoE Zannah's.
And then lastly there's the fact that DOE Bane injured DOE Zannah with a kick to the ribs while ROT Bane failed to inflict any lasting injury to ROT Zannah with a kick to the ribs immediately followed up with slamming her back with a telekinetic blast, despite the fact that given DOE Zannah's greater physical augmentation her physical durability would've been considerably greater as of DOE.
And:
With her attention split between the enemy in front of her and the Sith spell she was preparing to cast Zannah didn't notice how close she was to the freshly dug graves. Her heel caught on the uneven ground as she backed up, throwing her off balance as she fell awkwardly to the ground and landed on her back.
Bane was on her in an instant, his lightsaber slashing viciously, his heavy boots kicking and stomping at her prone body. Zannah thrashed and twisted on the ground, her lightsaber flailing desperately to parry Bane's blade. She felt a sharp crack as the toe of his boot caught her in the ribs, but she rolled with the impact and managed to end up back on her feet.
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
He kicked her when she was on the ground. She rolled after that "on the ground" and got up. I don't need to remind you, you being an engineer that the force transmitted in such a case will be much more than when he kicks her when she is up and about. Especially when in the latter case, she also rolled with the kick "in the air".
So when looking at the evidence of which incarnation of Bane is faster and stronger, your evidence for ROT Bane being faster and stronger is textual evidence that doesn't even definitively compare ROT Bane and DOE Bane, whereas my evidence for DOE Bane being faster than stronger consists of Zannah's own highly informed opinion at a point in the duel when she had regained her composure, a direct comparison of each Bane kicking their respective Zannah in the ribs and DOE Bane doing more damage despite DOE Zannah's superior durability to ROT Zannah, and a direct comparison that suggests DOE Bane's physicality would've pretty much instantly eviscerated ROT Zannah if you switched ROT Bane in that duel out for DOE Bane.
Except as I have proved to you, she didn't regain her composure. Your comparison of the kick in the ribs, I have promptly countered, and DoE Bane didn't do more damage. In case you didn't notice:
But Bane caught her on the chin with his elbow as she turned, the blow snapping her head back. Her body went limp, her weapon dropped from her nerveless fingers, and she crumpled to the ground.
For a second she saw nothing but stars. Her vision cleared to reveal the image of Darth Bane looming above her, his blade raised for the coup de grace.
Credit: Rule of Two
In ROT Bane "ended" the fight with a single hit and that too with the elbow( which would deliver much lesser force than a kick, forget a kick that is administered when the person is on the ground).
So in terms of effectiveness, DoE Bane is actually lesser than ROT Bane. Zannah was still in fighting condition after that kick, whereas she was one-shotted with that elbow strike.
And augmentation won't harden your ribcage, lol. It will increase your endurance to the pain and it will increase the rate at which the bones heal. That's it. How hard your body is and how strong your muscles are has nothing to do with your strength in the force.
I have to say, from the available evidence it seems DOE Bane is faster and stronger than ROT Bane, and at some point in the decade between ROT and DOE Bane was slightly faster and stronger than he was in DOE. This interpretation fits with all of the available evidence and is not contradicted by any of the evidence. And the picture it paints is that by dint of physical augmentation, DOE Bane has more actualized power in the Force than ROT Bane.
I'm afraid, it is contradicted.
Lastly, your blatant dismissal of the DoE Zannah's surprise factor and the speed comparison isn't acceptable. Let's run it down again:
During her years under Bane, they had sparred hundreds of times. During these sessions she had always known he was keeping something in reserve for the day they would inevitably fight for real. Only now did she realize just how much he had been holding back.
He was faster than she could ever have imagined, and he was using new sequences and unfamiliar moves he had never revealed during their practice sessions. But somehow she had survived the initial flurry, and now she knew what to expect.
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
You can moan technicalities all you want, there is something called context. She was comparing the increase in speed of Bane to their practice sessions only. I have illustrated the comparisons several times.
But let's take into the "faster than she could ever have imagined" quote into real account.
Both Bane and Zannah are virtually equals in DoE. Both Bane and Zannah know this. And both Bane and Zannah allude to this as well:
"You knew I still had things to teach you," Bane recalled. "You swore you would not kill me until you had learned all my secrets."
"That day is here," Zannah informed him, igniting the twin blades of her lightsaber.
Bane drew out his own weapon in response, the shimmering blade rising up from the curved hilt with a low hum.
The two combatants dropped into fighting stances and began to circle slowly.
"I have surpassed you, Bane," Zannah warned him. "Now I am the Master."
....
It was time to stake her claim as Dark Lord of the Sith. She would already have challenged him by now, if not for two things.
....
Over the years Bane had tracked her progress carefully, and he could no longer say with certainty which one of them would survive a confrontation between them.
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
There are many more indications but you get the point. Their raw strength in the force is roughly the same. As is their speed. Zannah's speed matches that of Bane's and she knows this. Yet if she makes a comment like this:
He was faster than she could ever have imagined....
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
Let us consider its implications, if we really take it at face value. Zannah knows that her real speed matches, roughly( is more or less the same) Bane's real speed. So does Bane. So if Bane is really faster than she could ever have "even imagined", he should practically be speedblitzing her. Just consider the blunt meaning of a speed being faster than a person can even imagine. It should be obvious to you that this is a hyperbolic quote. The author clearly didn't consider the implications of writing something being faster than even someone can even imagine. And if this is the case, then I don't really see a reason for it to be taken at face value at all.
Even if you want to ignore the fact that it is a hyperbolic statement on her part, and argue technicality, the mere fact that he is faster than she could have ever even imagined means that he should be speedblitzing her, as both know and have stated on multiple occasions and it is a general fact that their raw strength in the force is roughly the same. Where Bane has the advantage of his immense physical size and strength, Zannah has sorcery on her side. Speed is roughly even for both. So we arrive at a clear cut contradiction here, as obviously, even if Zannah has a low estimate of Bane's speed, which she doesn't, she must at least have them as equals. So in her opinion, if they were equals before, and Bane is now much faster than even her imagination, then I don't need to tell you the obvious conclusion here.
The other and far more logical explanation, one which takes into account context, is that she was completely startled by Bane's flurry of attacks( even after which she fought him as an equal) and unexpected sequences and as is completely natural for someone being startled, has made an overblown estimate of his abilities or speed. I don't need to see any of that "she made the conclusion at the same time" stuff, because I have already taken care of it. It is like I said, just the same as you wrestling with the dog, one moment he is your friend, the next moment, you feel like you are being destroyed by an animal much stronger than you are, that this animal is much stronger than you could have ever imagined, only to realize that you can in fact, take care of it( assuming you are strong enough, which evidently Zannah was). What's more, in Zannah's case, she was taking care of it, and very well.
So no, this scaling isn't enough, and is contradicted again.
Lastly, the only scaling you can do even if this was true( which it isn't), is Bane's temple feat, since Zannah never fought him when he was more powerful and amped, on Tython( a Bastion of Dark Side power).
And Bane's temple feat is decent but nothing too extraordinary.
And finally augmentation is at best, an indirect indication of power. If it was a direct indication, then Obi Wan would be an equal to or superior to Dooku simply because his speed was so high, Dooku was being blinded and did not even dare a strike etc. Yet there is a noticeable gap between them in regards to force power.
If this is all you have to go on, then it is really weak, when contrasted with the fact that his actualized power in the force was massively lowered upon losing the orbalisks, which would have been even more lowered due to his extremely severe injuries and the loss of midichlorians, and the fact that he would have lost a significant amount of his potential, thus even limiting the potential he could have reached and bringing his ROT orbalisk self's actualized power as close to his new lowered potential as possible, continuously degrading for years and then severely degrading at an alarming rate for 1 full year, to the point wherein in 5 years he would be a virtually useless husk. Along with the fact that though his willpower was greater, his anger was much lesser than his ROT self, leading to a reduction in actualized power as it is even on balance. All of this, along with nullifying any kind of scaling, and the fact that his general quality of feats is just plain lesser than in ROT and that he is meant to decrease and degrade in DoE is quite enough to suggest that DoE Bane should have lesser actualized power than ROT Bane even when Bane is on neutral ground, forget when Bane is significantly amped on Tython.
9 or 10
Bump
@erkan12: This thread is Legends
Stops at 7 and wow the order sucks
@greysentinel365: You still have Vader>Caedus?
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