@emperordmb
The main point that your assertion for DOE Bane being weaker than ROT Bane hinges upon is the notion that the beginning of DOE made a physical comparison between the two, as you've stated several several times:
That is not the sole reason. That was mainly to invalidate your theory. Augmentation doesn't always reflect power. An example would be Obi Wan and Dooku. Dooku is noticeably more powerful than him, despite Obi Wan dazzling and blinding him with sheer speed.
Your argument against my attempt to use physical capability evidence in support of DOE Bane being more powerful than ROT Bane hinges on the notion that the text was drawing a comparison between DOE Bane and ROT Bane that directly contradicts and invalidates my stance. You also hold the position that the physical degradation to Bane's body was rather extreme and constitutes a notable loss of cellular tissue on his part that seriously hampers his ability to wield the Force, and that the decline in his physical abilities wasn't slight or marginal:
The point is, part of it is, immediately after the whole issue in ROT, Bane is at his weakest. Obviously this is the case, because he is still heavily injured. This version of Bane is much much weaker than Orbalisk Bane amped by Tython, and is also weaker than a Bane who is going to be recovered from his injuries.
But lets look at the text of Dynasty of Evil and what it actually says:
Note the above.
It's noted that the aging process was only subtle at that point in time, and that his body had only begun to break down under dark side degeneration "after decades of focusing and channeling it's power" which means Dark Side degradation only begun to actually impact him within two years of Dynasty of Evil since before that point it had not been decades. The injuries Bane received on Tython can't be compared to Darth Vader's injuries in terms of their impact because first of all Bane actually made a rather full recovery from those injuries, said injuries are not mentioned as a reason for his bodily issues in Dynasty of Evil, and the negative effects of the Orbalisks are only stated to have contributed to his aging and dark side degradation, both of which are stated to have only recently begun to have an impact on him, and the combination of both of which have thus far only lead to a marginal decrease in his strength and speed. The physical state Bane would be in in five years is irrelevant to the fact that a combination of all of the factors you've mentioned have only lead to a slight physical decline as of Dynasty of Evil, and you are seriously overblowing how extensive it is as of this point in time.
Since you want to be technical, note:
1. Decades refer to anything more than a decade. 11 years thus, can also be referred to as decades. As can 15, 16 etc.
2. It is noted that the aging process itself is subtle, not that it is "only subtle at that point of time". As in, the very life process of aging is subtle.
And I was using the injuries as a means to state that he had lost a very lot of power after his ordeal on Tython, and his potential had reduced by a lot. It was a circumstance similar to Anakin's( not the exact same) and Anakin was only a shadow of what he once was. The injuries were such that even after 23 full years, it is debatable whether he is even equal to Anakin Skywalker in the force( he is obviously an inferior lightsaber combatant).
So, Bane after recovering may very well have grown. That doesn't change the fact at all, that he can/did/may not have achieved his former power that he had when he had the orbalisks. After he lost the orbalisks, his power would have dropped, from say, 100 to 30. Between this time, he may have increased, but he increased from 30 to some value( which is most likely <100). Not from 100.
And of course, he decreased in between this timeline. So the maximum value he has after 30, the power he has in DoE is actually lesser than the maximum value.
Now:
The aging process was subtle, but inescapable.
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
The very life process of aging is subtle. As is though out by Bane. As it is in real life as well.
And:
In five years his body would be a ruined husk, and she could dispatch him with virtually no risk.
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
This indicates, that, subtle may be the aging, but Bane was deteriorating at a fast rate. This is not due to the aging but rather:
Age was beginning to take its toll on Bane, but it was nothing compared with the toll already wrought upon his body by decades of drawing upon the dark side of the Force. He couldn't help but smile at the grim irony: through the dark side he had access to near-infinite power, but it was power that came with¬ a terrible cost. Flesh and bone lacked the strength to withstand the unfathomable energy unleashed by the Force. The unquenchable fire of the dark side was consuming him, devouring him bit by bit.
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
Age isn't to blame here for the majority. It is the dark side degeneration. And it is clearly stated that the orbalisks were to blame for this for the main part:
His condition was exacerbated by the lingering effects of the orbalisk armor that had been killing him even as it gifted him with incredible strength and speed.
The parasites had pushed his body well beyond its natural limits, aging him prematurely and intensifying the degeneration wrought by the power of the dark side. The orbalisks were gone now, but their damage could not be undone.
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
So the statement that the orbalisks and their effects had nothing to do with this isn't correct.
Also:
The first outward manifestations of his failing health had been subtle: his eyes had become sunken and drawn, his skin a touch more pale and pockmarked than was normal for his age. The last year, however, had seen more pronounced deterioration, culminating with the involuntary tremor that seized his left hand with increasing frequency.
And there was nothing he could do about it. The Jedi could draw upon the light side to heal injury and disease. But the dark side was a weapon; the sick and frail did not deserve to be cured. Only the strong were worthy of survival.
He had tried to conceal the tremor from his apprentice, but Zannah was too quick, too cunning, to have missed such an obvious mark of weakness in her Master.
Bane had expected the tremor to be the catalyst Zannah needed to challenge him. Yet even now, with his body showing undeniable evidence of his growing vulnerability, she seemed content to maintain the status quo.
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
All of which states that he degenerated and degenerated to a substantial extent. Also, the degradation had been going on for quite some time. It was only recently the degradation had become very "severe".
So yes, nothing is overblown. In fact, continuous degradation for many many years and extremely severe degradation for 1 year, along with the fact that once he recovered from his injuries he would start with much much lesser power than he had during the orbalisks, is quite enough to indicate that he would not reach the level he had when he had the orbalisks.
DOE Bane would have less potential or "raw" power than ROT Bane of course, but unless you're suggesting Bane reached the limits of his potential as of ROT, then nothing precludes him from advancing his mastery of the Force and ability to harness his potential to the extent at which DOE Bane would have more actualized power than ROT Bane, which is the only thing relevant to combat. And yes, the amount of practice, knowledge, and mastery of the Dark Side DOE Bane has compared to ROT Bane is rather humongous since Bane has spent nearly twice as much time as of DOE (when he had studied and practiced the Dark Side for 22 years) studying the Dark Side than as of ROT (when he had studied and practiced the Dark Side for 12 years). So the notion that DOE Bane has a considerable edge in mastery and knowledge in comparison to ROT Bane is not that far fetched. And there was also a substantial increase in willpower from ROT to DOE that I've noted before, and willpower is stated by Sidious to be a major component of Dark Side power.
Bane after losing the orbalisks would have much, much lesser actualized power as well, not only lesser potential. Because he lost the orbalisks, a few of which will give greater boosts than a massive boost to him, and he was almost covered with them. And his severe injuries would have lessened his ability to call on the force, due to a high loss in midichlorians.
Which is what I said. If he was 100 during the orbalisks, he would be 30 after losing them( for example purposes).
There was indeed a tradeoff where ROT Bane has the Orbalisk amp and DOE Bane has significantly greater willpower and has spent a lot more time studying the dark side and mastering/actualizing his potential, so the notion that you can be cut and dry when suggesting which incarnation has more actualized power from these details is a faulty one. From these details alone it could be either one of them, which is why I draw a physical comparison between the two in a way that is definitively a comparison between ROT and DOE Bane, not DOE Bane and some undisclosed point in the past.
Well, first of all, his potential is quite lesser than before. So actualizing it, from a point where he would be much lesser than what he was when he had the orbalisks, to the point where he would surpass even his orbalisk self+ his natural potential self........Do you see the immensely massive gap he has to cover?
And as for willpower. It is nice that you brought this up, because this actually helps my case. Willpower is a way of accessing the power that you have, true. But much more important than willpower for any dark sider, is his anger and the negative emotions that he possesses. The fact that anger significantly boosts a Sith's power has been repeatedly and irrefutably established throughout the mythos. And as the text states it:
A decade earlier he would have eagerly engaged them in physical combat, his body pumped full of adrenaline released by the orbalisks that had covered his flesh. Swept up in a mindless rage, he would have carved a bloody swath through their numbers, hacking and slashing at his helpless enemies while relying on the impenetrable shells of the orbalisks to protect him from their blows.
But the orbalisks were gone now. He was no longer invulnerable to physical attacks, yet he was also no longer a slave to the primal bloodlust that used to overwhelm him.
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
So, the immense amounts of anger and bloodlust that he used to receive during his orbalisk infestation is gone in DoE. Which is also rather obvious if you compare their states of mind in the two novels.
Willpower is something neutral. It will help a Jedi as much as a Sith to actualized power. Anger and lust on the other hand, will help dark siders much more than simple strength of will will. Because they appeal directly to the dark side of the force, which will in turn, grant them power for it.
So yes, his extra willpower is more than counterbalanced by the fact that he has lost his state of immense anger and bloodlust which would grant him immense power if he still would have had them.
Considering that the ones stating that Bane grew slower don't actually contradict what Zannah's opinion is asserting, and considering Zannah has trained under Bane for the past two decades, dueled against him in an orbalisk bloodlust, and witnessed him in an orbalisk bloodlust on Tython, I'd say her opinion is rather well informed. In the absence of any evidence legitimately contradicting that opinion, I'd take the implications of that opinion over nothing.
Zannah's opinion and your eh, twisting of it is flawed as stated.
So the implication you are making here is that Zannah's assessment is one of pure surprise, however she made that assessment at the exact same time as she had noted that "she now knew what to expect" so she clearly had regained her composure at that point in time. So the notion that her opinion is invalid is faulty, and it is in fact the most valid indication we have since the evidence you keep referring to is not a direct comparison between ROT and DOE Bane.
No, she stated that he was faster than she could have ever imagined before she states that she now knew what to expect.
It's like this: You are friends with a dog on the street and play with him. Regularly play-wrestle with him and have a general feel for his strength. But then out of the blue, one day he suddenly attacks you and you think to yourself-he is faster and stronger than I ever imagined. You hold him in a firm grip and then decide, that yes, you now know what to expect from him now that you have survived his initial attack.
You are simply twisting the words of the author to suit your opinion. Her observations are "written down" after the initial fight sequence is shown. But any thoughts she would have on Bane's prowess would come immediately during the fight.
If you want to be so technical, however:
He was faster than she could ever have imagined, and he was using new sequences and unfamiliar moves he had never revealed during their practice sessions. But somehow she had survived the initial flurry, and now she knew what to expect.
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
She states that he was "using" new sequences and moves. Which means that when she was thinking this, Bane's attack had just started. But after that she states that she has survived his initial flurry and now knows what to expect. Which clearly means that the next thought was when the surprise was over and that she now knows what to expect. In other words, these two sentences are her thoughts over the course of the entire attack, the first when Bane has just begun the attack and the second when the flurry has ended. Because these are the conscious thoughts she can have while Bane attacks.
However the fact of the matter is that ROT Zannah was caught even more off guard than DOE Zannah was. Like DOE Zannah, ROT Zannah was caught off guard by how different Bane's speed was to his sparring speed (and likely even moreso considering ROT Bane would've almost certainly held back more than DOE Bane in his spars with her to account for her lower skill level):
I am addressing the fact that DoE Zannah would have been surprised at Bane's speed which would be vastly different than their practice sessions. And she was only caught by surprise for the initial flurry where clearly Bane would have given it his all.
ROT Zannah was getting wrecked. The comparison doesn't exist.
And no. ROT Zannah was less caught off guard. DoE Zannah was witnessing Bane's real speed and aggression after many years whereas she had a whole battle to witness that in ROT and was observing it with great interest.
Zannah had watched the battle with interest, taking careful note of Bane's tactics and tendencies and storing them away for later. Her Master easily dispatched Hetton and his minions, as she had expected ... though there had been a brief instant near the start of the battle when Bane had appeared vulnerable. Apparently the orbalisks were not able to fully protect him against the electrical current of the force pikes-another fact she made a point of filing away for later.
When it was over her Master turned to face her. She waited for him to demand an explanation, but instead he let loose with a cry and flew at her. Zannah barely had time to ignite her twin blades to meet his completely unexpected attack.
Credit: Rule of Two
She was even taking note of Bane's strategies and tactics throughout the battle and was storing them away for later. ROT Zannah knows her master's real speed, strength and aggression which she has observed carefully and still gets wrecked. DoE Zannah doesn't know it for many years and still fights evenly with him even in the initial flurry. It is rather apparent as to who is more surprised and disadvantaged.
There's no doubt that DOE Zannah matched Bane in a duel more evenly than ROT Zannah did, but if what you are suggesting is that ROT Bane is physically faster and stronger than DOE Bane, yet didn't immediately eviscerate a more caught off guard, slower, physically weaker, less experienced, less skilled, less adept with sensing opponent's incoming attacks through the Force Zannah with his speed and strength as it is abundantly apparent DOE Bane would've done in that situation, then I simply don't buy that.
I am not suggesting anything. It is outright stated that DoE Bane is weaker and deteriorating at an alarming rate.
And I am only using the off-guard argument as a means of nullifying any kind of comparison. Not as a means of gauging their respective performances.
As for the performance:
He opened with a series of two-handed overhead chops, using his great height to bring his blade hacking down at her from above. She easily blocked each blow, but the momentum of the crushing impact caused her to stagger back, throwing her off balance.
She recovered quickly, however, spinning out of the way when he followed up with a low, looping swipe meant to hew her off at the knees. She retaliated with a quick jab with the tip of one of her blades toward Bane's face, but he ducked his head to the side and came back with a wide-arcing, single-handed slash at chest level.
Zannah intercepted his blade with one of her own, angling her weapon so that the momentum of Bane's attack was redirected downward, sending the tip of his lightsaber into the dirt. This should have exposed him to a counterthrust, but he was already reacting to her move, driving his entire body forward into Zannah's before she could bring her weapon up.
His weight slammed into her, knocking her back as Bane snapped his neck forward. Zannah threw her head back just in time, and the head-butt that would have smashed her face glanced off her chin instead.
Scrambling to stay on her feet, Zannah raised her weapon back up, spinning the handle so that the twirling blades formed a defensive wall that repelled Bane's next half a dozen blows.
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
Do you notice anything here? Despite Zannah being caught utterly off guard, Bane....doesn't really achieve anything here. He doesn't get any kind of advantage or anything discernible that would allow him any kind of edge over his opponent, other than using his physicality to, just at the start of the flurry itself, drive Zannah back a little. A Zannah whose entire style is meant for giving ground. He doesn't get any sort of advantage here, and isn't on the top. Both are even, despite Zannah initially being at a disadvantage.
Whereas, from the ROT fight, it is obvious that Zannah is extremely desperate and is fighting at her utter maximum being pushed completely to her limits, which is why she is even able to last a couple of strikes. She isn't even able to handle that much, and has to flee from the fight. It is rather obvious that she is getting wrecked. Not as badly wrecked as Agen Kolar got by Palpatine, but still, more badly than Palpatine wrecked Maul.
There is no comparison to be had. DoE Zannah is significantly better than ROT Zannah, but she was fighting with Bane as an equal even in the initial flurry when she was caught completely by surprise moreso than in ROT, whereas ROT Zannah was getting wrecked despite her surprise being lesser than DoE Zannah's.
And then lastly there's the fact that DOE Bane injured DOE Zannah with a kick to the ribs while ROT Bane failed to inflict any lasting injury to ROT Zannah with a kick to the ribs immediately followed up with slamming her back with a telekinetic blast, despite the fact that given DOE Zannah's greater physical augmentation her physical durability would've been considerably greater as of DOE.
And:
With her attention split between the enemy in front of her and the Sith spell she was preparing to cast Zannah didn't notice how close she was to the freshly dug graves. Her heel caught on the uneven ground as she backed up, throwing her off balance as she fell awkwardly to the ground and landed on her back.
Bane was on her in an instant, his lightsaber slashing viciously, his heavy boots kicking and stomping at her prone body. Zannah thrashed and twisted on the ground, her lightsaber flailing desperately to parry Bane's blade. She felt a sharp crack as the toe of his boot caught her in the ribs, but she rolled with the impact and managed to end up back on her feet.
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
He kicked her when she was on the ground. She rolled after that "on the ground" and got up. I don't need to remind you, you being an engineer that the force transmitted in such a case will be much more than when he kicks her when she is up and about. Especially when in the latter case, she also rolled with the kick "in the air".
So when looking at the evidence of which incarnation of Bane is faster and stronger, your evidence for ROT Bane being faster and stronger is textual evidence that doesn't even definitively compare ROT Bane and DOE Bane, whereas my evidence for DOE Bane being faster than stronger consists of Zannah's own highly informed opinion at a point in the duel when she had regained her composure, a direct comparison of each Bane kicking their respective Zannah in the ribs and DOE Bane doing more damage despite DOE Zannah's superior durability to ROT Zannah, and a direct comparison that suggests DOE Bane's physicality would've pretty much instantly eviscerated ROT Zannah if you switched ROT Bane in that duel out for DOE Bane.
Except as I have proved to you, she didn't regain her composure. Your comparison of the kick in the ribs, I have promptly countered, and DoE Bane didn't do more damage. In case you didn't notice:
But Bane caught her on the chin with his elbow as she turned, the blow snapping her head back. Her body went limp, her weapon dropped from her nerveless fingers, and she crumpled to the ground.
For a second she saw nothing but stars. Her vision cleared to reveal the image of Darth Bane looming above her, his blade raised for the coup de grace.
Credit: Rule of Two
In ROT Bane "ended" the fight with a single hit and that too with the elbow( which would deliver much lesser force than a kick, forget a kick that is administered when the person is on the ground).
So in terms of effectiveness, DoE Bane is actually lesser than ROT Bane. Zannah was still in fighting condition after that kick, whereas she was one-shotted with that elbow strike.
And augmentation won't harden your ribcage, lol. It will increase your endurance to the pain and it will increase the rate at which the bones heal. That's it. How hard your body is and how strong your muscles are has nothing to do with your strength in the force.
I have to say, from the available evidence it seems DOE Bane is faster and stronger than ROT Bane, and at some point in the decade between ROT and DOE Bane was slightly faster and stronger than he was in DOE. This interpretation fits with all of the available evidence and is not contradicted by any of the evidence. And the picture it paints is that by dint of physical augmentation, DOE Bane has more actualized power in the Force than ROT Bane.
I'm afraid, it is contradicted.
Lastly, your blatant dismissal of the DoE Zannah's surprise factor and the speed comparison isn't acceptable. Let's run it down again:
During her years under Bane, they had sparred hundreds of times. During these sessions she had always known he was keeping something in reserve for the day they would inevitably fight for real. Only now did she realize just how much he had been holding back.
He was faster than she could ever have imagined, and he was using new sequences and unfamiliar moves he had never revealed during their practice sessions. But somehow she had survived the initial flurry, and now she knew what to expect.
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
You can moan technicalities all you want, there is something called context. She was comparing the increase in speed of Bane to their practice sessions only. I have illustrated the comparisons several times.
But let's take into the "faster than she could ever have imagined" quote into real account.
Both Bane and Zannah are virtually equals in DoE. Both Bane and Zannah know this. And both Bane and Zannah allude to this as well:
"You knew I still had things to teach you," Bane recalled. "You swore you would not kill me until you had learned all my secrets."
"That day is here," Zannah informed him, igniting the twin blades of her lightsaber.
Bane drew out his own weapon in response, the shimmering blade rising up from the curved hilt with a low hum.
The two combatants dropped into fighting stances and began to circle slowly.
"I have surpassed you, Bane," Zannah warned him. "Now I am the Master."
....
It was time to stake her claim as Dark Lord of the Sith. She would already have challenged him by now, if not for two things.
....
Over the years Bane had tracked her progress carefully, and he could no longer say with certainty which one of them would survive a confrontation between them.
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
There are many more indications but you get the point. Their raw strength in the force is roughly the same. As is their speed. Zannah's speed matches that of Bane's and she knows this. Yet if she makes a comment like this:
He was faster than she could ever have imagined....
Credit: Dynasty of Evil
Let us consider its implications, if we really take it at face value. Zannah knows that her real speed matches, roughly( is more or less the same) Bane's real speed. So does Bane. So if Bane is really faster than she could ever have "even imagined", he should practically be speedblitzing her. Just consider the blunt meaning of a speed being faster than a person can even imagine. It should be obvious to you that this is a hyperbolic quote. The author clearly didn't consider the implications of writing something being faster than even someone can even imagine. And if this is the case, then I don't really see a reason for it to be taken at face value at all.
Even if you want to ignore the fact that it is a hyperbolic statement on her part, and argue technicality, the mere fact that he is faster than she could have ever even imagined means that he should be speedblitzing her, as both know and have stated on multiple occasions and it is a general fact that their raw strength in the force is roughly the same. Where Bane has the advantage of his immense physical size and strength, Zannah has sorcery on her side. Speed is roughly even for both. So we arrive at a clear cut contradiction here, as obviously, even if Zannah has a low estimate of Bane's speed, which she doesn't, she must at least have them as equals. So in her opinion, if they were equals before, and Bane is now much faster than even her imagination, then I don't need to tell you the obvious conclusion here.
The other and far more logical explanation, one which takes into account context, is that she was completely startled by Bane's flurry of attacks( even after which she fought him as an equal) and unexpected sequences and as is completely natural for someone being startled, has made an overblown estimate of his abilities or speed. I don't need to see any of that "she made the conclusion at the same time" stuff, because I have already taken care of it. It is like I said, just the same as you wrestling with the dog, one moment he is your friend, the next moment, you feel like you are being destroyed by an animal much stronger than you are, that this animal is much stronger than you could have ever imagined, only to realize that you can in fact, take care of it( assuming you are strong enough, which evidently Zannah was). What's more, in Zannah's case, she was taking care of it, and very well.
So no, this scaling isn't enough, and is contradicted again.
Lastly, the only scaling you can do even if this was true( which it isn't), is Bane's temple feat, since Zannah never fought him when he was more powerful and amped, on Tython( a Bastion of Dark Side power).
And Bane's temple feat is decent but nothing too extraordinary.
And finally augmentation is at best, an indirect indication of power. If it was a direct indication, then Obi Wan would be an equal to or superior to Dooku simply because his speed was so high, Dooku was being blinded and did not even dare a strike etc. Yet there is a noticeable gap between them in regards to force power.
If this is all you have to go on, then it is really weak, when contrasted with the fact that his actualized power in the force was massively lowered upon losing the orbalisks, which would have been even more lowered due to his extremely severe injuries and the loss of midichlorians, and the fact that he would have lost a significant amount of his potential, thus even limiting the potential he could have reached and bringing his ROT orbalisk self's actualized power as close to his new lowered potential as possible, continuously degrading for years and then severely degrading at an alarming rate for 1 full year, to the point wherein in 5 years he would be a virtually useless husk. Along with the fact that though his willpower was greater, his anger was much lesser than his ROT self, leading to a reduction in actualized power as it is even on balance. All of this, along with nullifying any kind of scaling, and the fact that his general quality of feats is just plain lesser than in ROT and that he is meant to decrease and degrade in DoE is quite enough to suggest that DoE Bane should have lesser actualized power than ROT Bane even when Bane is on neutral ground, forget when Bane is significantly amped on Tython.
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