Apollo vs Blue Marvel

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Kingant27

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#251  Edited By Kingant27

@jas0 said:

@sodamyat: I also think Saren was a better debater and had the best reasons. RW could debate with him, but I think Saren always had the best arguments and had the upper hand along the whole debate.

Yet he didn't prove anything, of how he can win that way, without Blue Marvel not fighting back, and he could survive that; and that it was a not well thought out hypothetical set-up in favour of Apollo.

Blue Marvel is too much for Apollo.

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@kingant27: I think Blue Marvel wins. But if I didn't knew the characters I'd certainly think Apollo would win, he was a better debater between you three imo, he had the best arguments so far.

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Kingant27

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@jas0: There was no good argument made, so I don't know what you are talking about, as we were debunking him, not the other way around.

He made up a hypothetical situation, in favour of Apollo, yet it was debunked, as we showed he could resist the sun, and he wouldn't be able to BFR him in the first place, so I reverted it by saying why not assume Blue Marvel manipulates him on the quark level etc...

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RealityWarper

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@jas0 said:

@sodamyat: I also think Saren was a better debater and had the best reasons. RW could debate with him, but I think Saren always had the best arguments and had the upper hand along the whole debate.

How ?


He posted one scan out of context and pretended that Apollo had beaten Captain Atom even it was the contrary (a lie in short).


I posted the two other scans which showed that Cap Atom let Apollo carry him slowly through the door and then Captain Atom beat him via using his Quantum Manipulation abilities in order to accelerate the photokinesis and overload Apollo.

He constantly avoided my question about how Apollo is supposed to beat Blue Marvel in the first place.

He pretended that Blue Marvel couldn't use anti-photons as he just injected some in Monica Rambeau, even it was a surgical acts and that he had to care about how much anti-photons he had to send into Monica's body...

Moreover some recents scans that I posted on the previous page proved me right about his ability to generate large AOE of anti-photons.

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He showed how Apollo can create doors on BM's body, and there's no feat that shows BM can resist the sun. That's the point, the Bomb can't explain anything, since there are many other things that happen in the sun. That's the point, and you couldn't counter it. He was a better debater because he had better explanations and a better argument, you kept posting random scans that didn't add to the debate and RW couldn't counter his arguments. As I've said, I still think Blue Marvel wins, but Saren had the upper hand along the entire debate, you can see I'm not the only one who thinks that.

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SodamYat

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#256  Edited By SodamYat
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Kingant27

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@jas0 said:

He showed how Apollo can create doors on BM's body, and there's no feat that shows BM can resist the sun. That's the point, the Bomb can't explain anything, since there are many other things that happen in the sun. That's the point, and you couldn't counter it. He was a better debater because he had better explanations and a better argument, you kept posting random scans that didn't add to the debate and RW couldn't counter his arguments. As I've said, I still think Blue Marvel wins, but Saren had the upper hand along the entire debate, you can see I'm not the only one who thinks that.

lol he can resist the sun, and secondly he couldn't get him there anyway, so it wasn't a good point, so saying better argument when it was debunked and not true or accurately used; questions your logic here.

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thedailybagel

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#258  Edited By thedailybagel  Moderator

@sodamyat: he didn't lie, realitywarper has a habit of saying people are lying when he doesn't agree with them.

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Kingant27

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@sodamyat: he didn't lie, realitywarper has a habit of saying people are lying when he doesn't agree with them.

I wouldn't say he lied, but exaggerated his ability of the doors a bit IMO.

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@sodamyat: he didn't lie, realitywarper has a habit of saying people are lying when he doesn't agree with them.

oh, ok, thanks for the heads up.

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@jas0 said:

He showed how Apollo can create doors on BM's body, and there's no feat that shows BM can resist the sun. That's the point, the Bomb can't explain anything, since there are many other things that happen in the sun. That's the point, and you couldn't counter it. He was a better debater because he had better explanations and a better argument, you kept posting random scans that didn't add to the debate and RW couldn't counter his arguments. As I've said, I still think Blue Marvel wins, but Saren had the upper hand along the entire debate, you can see I'm not the only one who thinks that.

Apollo never did that.

Show me one instance of Apollo doing that

.Therefore it was out-of-context. :)

None of my scans were random. Where did you get that idea ? I have explained each scans.

The bomb could has the reaction of an H-bomb recreate the same nuclear fusion than in the Sun.

A casual H-bomb displays more power than the core of the Sun at ground 0.

His only argument was that Apollo could throw BM into the Sun via a door, which is ridiculous to the point that Apollo never did it even against fodders.

So I don't get it : you say that Saren was a better debater, had better arguments but you side with me when I say that Blue Marvel wins.

Why then ? :))

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#262  Edited By adamTRMM

If Blue Marvel surviving the sun is a speculation because he never had a showing to prove that, how does it work the opposite way? How can one say he WON'T survive near it without backing it up canonically if this showing doesn't exist?

Double standard or flawed logic?

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#263  Edited By RealityWarper

@thedailybagel said:

@sodamyat: he didn't lie, realitywarper has a habit of saying people are lying when he doesn't agree with them.

I wouldn't say he lied, but exaggerated his ability of the doors a bit IMO.

Oh really ?

Read from the post #65

He consciously hide all the context of the fight.

He even showed half of the page where Apollo "throws" Captain Atom into the Sun (that he never did).

I provided the 3 pages of the fight later (and Apollo looses).

He did the same things with the fodder throwed by Midnighter through doors (when the doors opens on people).

The big difference is that Midnighter's battle computer can anticipate the creations of doors when he ask The Carrier to create one or more telepathically.

Apollo can't.

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Kingant27

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@kingant27 said:

@thedailybagel said:

@sodamyat: he didn't lie, realitywarper has a habit of saying people are lying when he doesn't agree with them.

I wouldn't say he lied, but exaggerated his ability of the doors a bit IMO.

Oh really ?

Read from the post #65

He consciously hide all the context of the fight.

He even showed half of the page where Apollo "throws" Captain Atom into the Sun (that he never did).

I provided the 3 pages of the fight later (and Apollo looses).

He did the same things with the fodder throwed by Midnighter through doors (when the doors opens on people).

The big difference is that Midnighter's battle computer can anticipate the creations of doors when he ask The Carrier to create one or more telepathically.

Apollo can't.

lol, that wasn't said about you, but about saren; you misread it...

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#265  Edited By RealityWarper
@adamtrmm said:

If Blue Marvel surviving the sun is a speculation because he never had a showing to prove that, how does it work the opposite way? How can one say he WON'T survive near it without backing it up canonically if this showing doesn't exist?

Double standard or flawed logic?

Thor surviving inside the Sun is even less logical.

Thor needs to breathe.

Thor has not the capacity to absorb the energies without Mjolnir.

Thor is harmed by less powerful things than the Sun.

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#266  Edited By RealityWarper

@kingant27: It was to answer to TDB so you can see the answer too ^^

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#268 thedailybagel  Moderator

@realitywarper: he didn't need to show the context to the fight, appolo lost because he's stupid and holds no bearing on a fight with blue marvel. Saren was just demonstrating how easy it would be to take adam to the sun, which is actually even easier since appolo can just open doors on people.

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#269  Edited By jas0

@adamtrmm: For example, Constantine vs Molecule Man, Constantine never showed resistance to Molecular Manipulation, if I say MM can win via MM then someone says that I can't claim that because Constantine never showed resistance to MM? For me that doesn't make sense, when I debate, if someone claim something I'll try to find a feat that'll defend my character from the claim, that's how the thing goes, and RW did defend his character, but I think Saren's previous arguments were better than RW's counter arguments, the problem is this other guy that can't understand this and he thinks my logic fails.

@realitywarper: Kingant's scans were random and pointless, not yours. I didn't tag him, but the comment was for him. I think Blue Marvel wins, but that just my opinion, he had the bast arguments and I think he was the best debater. The whole thing is, he can survive the same nuclear fusion in the sun, but that doesn't mean he'll survive millions of explosions and the other variables there, I think your counter argument wasn't as persuasive as his, that's the point. That's the same thing as the CaV, I can think a character wins, but I'll vote for the best debater, the best debater here was Saren IMO. The scan below proves he can open doors on his teamates:

No Caption Provided

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#270  Edited By adamTRMM

@jas0 said:

@adamtrmm: For example, Constantine vs Molecule Man, Constantine never showed resistance to Molecular Manipulation, if I say MM can win via MM then someone says that I can't claim that because Constantine never showed resistance to MM? For me that doesn't make sense, when I debate, if someone claim something I'll try to find a feat that'll defend my character from the claim, that's how the thing goes, and RW did defend his character, but I think Saren's previous arguments were better than RW's counter arguments, the problem is this other guy that can't understand this and he thinks my logic fails.

Yeah only Blue Marvel is in a tier of people who survive even the center of the sun constantly. No one is arguing about street levelers here with all of their WELL-KNOWN limitations, these are powerhouses and each weakness has to be backed up. So your comparison is incorrect, sorry. It's like saying that Black Hole guns should hurt Thor or Gladiator (same tier chars) because they hurt Superman. Why? Deal with it.

Not good enough for me. Now, if Gladiator/Thor would've shown such a weakness (and maybe they did, but not that I'm aware of) it would be legit, but if the didn't, how is it even a legitimate argument?

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Thor needs to breathe.

Thor has not the capacity to absorb the energies without Mjolnir.

Thor is harmed by less powerful things than the Sun.

I think different instances claim different statements, recently in Hickman's Avengers it was said he can hold his breath for millennia or st like this.

Not that I'm aware of.

Well it's true for most of the characters.

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@realitywarper: he didn't need to show the context to the fight, appolo lost because he's stupid and holds no bearing on a fight with blue marvel. Saren was just demonstrating how easy it would be to take adam to the sun, which is actually even easier since appolo can just open doors on people.

He demonstrated nothing as Captain Atom wasn't fighting at all.

@jas0 said:

@adamtrmm: For example, Constantine vs Molecule Man, Constantine never showed resistance to Molecular Manipulation, if I say MM can win via MM then someone says that I can't claim that because Constantine never showed resistance to MM? For me that doesn't make sense, when I debate, if someone claim something I'll try to find a feat that'll defend my character from the claim, that's how the thing goes, and RW did defend his character, but I think Saren's previous arguments were better than RW's counter arguments, the problem is this other guy that can't understand this and he thinks my logic fails.

<<<< I defending this by showing that BM was unaffected by an H-bomb at ground zero, by the fact that he is a being made of living anti-energies and that he can manipulate those energies.

I totally understand the point of view of Saren, unfortunatly he never showed Apollo capable to beat someone on BM's level. That makes the argument of the door bad in the first place as Apollo will be demolished.

@realitywarper: Kingant's scans were random and pointless, not yours. I didn't tag him, but the comment was for him. I think Blue Marvel wins, but that just my opinion, he had the bast arguments and I think he was the best debater. The whole thing is, he can survive the same nuclear fusion in the sun, but that doesn't mean he'll survive millions of explosions and the other variables there, I think your counter argument wasn't as persuasive as his, that's the point. That's the same thing as the CaV, I can think a character wins, but I'll vote for the best debater, the best debater here was Saren IMO. The scan below proves he can open doors on his teamates:

No Caption Provided

<<< Ah ok ^^ I thinked that my scans were perceived as sh*t. ^^ My bad. :)

Yeah of course the argument of The Sun don't answer to the question "Can they survive to the solar flares ?" but I highly doubt the writers think about it most of the time. Comic book logic is sometimes... Illogical.

On the scan below it's Midnighter who opens the doors on the guys.

Do you remember in which issue of The Authority that scan comes from ?

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@realitywarper: Idk which issue the scan comes from, Saren posted it, I just re-posted. Authroity books weren't published here in my country, I'm still waiting for a chance to read them.

@adamtrmm: My example wasn't a good one, but let's take the Black Hole one, I say they can hurt Superman, so if I claim they can hurt Thor or Gladiator, the guy should provide scans to defend his character. I'll repeat again, RW could defend his character, but I think Saren's previous arguments were more persuasive, my opinion, you can have yours, I'm just trying to show you my point of view.

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#274  Edited By RealityWarper

@adamtrmm said:

@realitywarper said:

Thor needs to breathe.

Thor has not the capacity to absorb the energies without Mjolnir.

Thor is harmed by less powerful things than the Sun.

I think different instances claim different statements, recently in Hickman's Avengers it was said he can hold his breath for millennia or st like this.

Not that I'm aware of.

Well it's true for most of the characters.

Yes.

As readers we have to be aware that characters are just concepts and that each writer behind them has his own interpretation of the concept.

When the concepts matches each others we call that consistency.

Otherwise as readers we are deceived. ^^

@jas0 You know there is different means to have them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXoZsgNHquM

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@jas0: That scan is from one of the last few issues of Number of the Beast, if I remember correctly.

@sodamyat said:

@saren did you really lie?

About what? I don't think I ever claimed Apollo beat Captain Atom, just that he threw Atom into the sun after opening a door, which is exactly what happened. The only point of that example was to show that doors can be opened that lead directly to the sun. Captain Atom himself was entirely irrelevant. He could have been substituted with any other character and the point that doors can go to the sun would have remained contact. I did use Atom as an example of Apollo's physical strength because Atom himself expressed fear that Apollo would kill him if the fight remained physical (and Atom ultimately defeated Apollo through molecule manipulation). RealityWarper then insisted that Atom was KO'd so it didn't count, even though Atom's presence there was, as I said, irrelevant. I made the mistake of playing along and pointed out that Atom has multiple thought boxes on those panels, which casts doubt on the idea that he was KO'd given that it is hard to think while not conscious. You have thoughts, surely you've noticed that they're only around when you're awake. RealityWarper then went with a brand new definition of KO'd, still not grasping the point that Captain Atom's presence was entirely irrelevant. What could come of continuing?

There is no point in debating with people whose idea of a response consists of "lol, you can't say that, i debunked it" regardless of whether any debunking actually took place or not. This thread was a waste of time from start to finish.

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@saren said:

@jas0: That scan is from one of the last few issues of Number of the Beast, if I remember correctly.

@sodamyat said:

@saren did you really lie?

About what? I don't think I ever claimed Apollo beat Captain Atom, just that he threw Atom into the sun after opening a door, which is exactly what happened. The only point of that example was to show that doors can be opened that lead directly to the sun. Captain Atom himself was entirely irrelevant. He could have been substituted with any other character and the point that doors can go to the sun would have remained contact. I did use Atom as an example of Apollo's physical strength because Atom himself expressed fear that Apollo would kill him if the fight remained physical (and Atom ultimately defeated Apollo through molecule manipulation). RealityWarper then insisted that Atom was KO'd so it didn't count, even though Atom's presence there was, as I said, irrelevant. I made the mistake of playing along and pointed out that Atom has multiple thought boxes on those panels, which casts doubt on the idea that he was KO'd given that it is hard to think while not conscious. You have thoughts, surely you've noticed that they're only around when you're awake. RealityWarper then went with a brand new definition of KO'd, still not grasping the point that Captain Atom's presence was entirely irrelevant. What could come of continuing?

There is no point in debating with people whose idea of a response consists of "lol, you can't say that, i debunked it" regardless of whether any debunking actually took place or not. This thread was a waste of time from start to finish.

oh ok. youre painting a clear picture of who youre arguing agianst. just on this page alone i was warned about him by another user. Thanks for the heads up.

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Apollo...Not convince BM can survive next to the sun unless feats say he can..Has he been next to it or in it.???

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#278 BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

@saren: I am simultaneously sad and very VERY glad that I missed out on this thread originally. I would say I can't believe the stubbornness and utter lack of reason you were faced with, but I know what it's like so I certainly can believe it. What I can't believe is that it's somehow still going on. Instead of falling into this obvious trap with my own words I'm just going to repost most of someone else's comment because for the most part they wrapped it up nicely.

@jas0 said:

He showed how Apollo can create doors on BM's body, and there's no feat that shows BM can resist the sun. That's the point, the Bomb can't explain anything, since there are many other things that happen in the sun. That's the point, and you couldn't counter it. He was a better debater because he had better explanations and a better argument, you kept posting random scans that didn't add to the debate and RW couldn't counter his arguments.

Saren had the upper hand along the entire debate.

That's really all there is to it, though I know that's impossible for some to grasp.

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@buckshot said:

@saren: I am simultaneously sad and very VERY glad that I missed out on this thread originally. I would say I can't believe the stubbornness and utter lack of reason you were faced with, but I know what it's like so I certainly can believe it. What I can't believe is that it's somehow still going on. Instead of falling into this obvious trap with my own words I'm just going to repost most of someone else's comment because for the most part they wrapped it up nicely.

@jas0 said:

He showed how Apollo can create doors on BM's body, and there's no feat that shows BM can resist the sun. That's the point, the Bomb can't explain anything, since there are many other things that happen in the sun. That's the point, and you couldn't counter it. He was a better debater because he had better explanations and a better argument, you kept posting random scans that didn't add to the debate and RW couldn't counter his arguments.

Saren had the upper hand along the entire debate.

That's really all there is to it, though I know that's impossible for some to grasp.

This sums up my thoughts.

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#281 BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

@saren: I've been doing that bit of life that takes place in the real world. Started being around again at the very tail end of last year and that hasn't ended yet. Mostly observing though. I've been responding to questions and problems via PM more than actually posting on the forums. Seems the absence cost me my moderator title but I think I'll survive. It was often more annoying than anything else, what with people thinking it was a valid point to bring up in debates, which I saw you dealt with in this thread as a matter of fact, not to mention the more tedious tasks. In any case, I'm here now for a stretch.

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#282  Edited By The_Titan_Lord
No Caption Provided

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This is the most depressing thread I've ever read.

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@jas0 said:

My example wasn't a good one, but let's take the Black Hole one, I say they can hurt Superman, so if I claim they can hurt Thor or Gladiator, the guy should provide scans to defend his character. I'll repeat again, RW could defend his character, but I think Saren's previous arguments were more persuasive, my opinion, you can have yours, I'm just trying to show you my point of view.

I didn't try to dissolve your POV, only to point out that if one doesn't have a showing of being invulnerable to the subject of discussion (the Sun in this thread), lack of such showing cannot be used as a case for his alleged vulnerability to it in the same statement, since again, this showing doesn't exist. It makes no sense and is a tricky reverse speculation to claim otherwise.

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#285  Edited By jas0

@saren: Thanks for the info.

@realitywarper: I just do that with comics that are nearly impossible to find or they're not worth the buy. Like: Demon Knights; Day of Judgement; Shadowpact. I want to have the Authority books in my own collection and they're probably going to publish in my country since they've published Planetary last year. I'll wait.

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#286  Edited By RealityWarper
@jas0 said:

@saren: Thanks for the info.

@realitywarper: I just do that with comics that are nearly impossible to find or they're not worth the buy. Like: Demon Knights; Day of Judgement; Shadowpact. I want to have the Authority books in my own collection and they're probably going to publish in my country since they've published Planetary last year. I'll wait.

Same.

Depending on my money too.

@saren@buckshot

It was my first debate here and even I made some mistakes, as everyone does, I have put some efforts on giving a lot of accurate information.

@saren

About what? I don't think I ever claimed Apollo beat Captain Atom, just that he threw Atom into the sun after opening a door, which is exactly what happened.

Regarding on the context, Cap Atom was totally upset by the violence displayed by the characters on this alternate reality. His main problem wasn't to explode and to find a way to save the World. Fighting more people, like Apollo here, didn't help at all.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

The only point of that example was to show that doors can be opened that lead directly to the sun.

Right.

Captain Atom himself was entirely irrelevant

Not really. Blue Marvel has been proved capable of manipulating energies too. Moreove,r as I said previously in the thread, there is some recents feats of him blasting people with large anti-photons blast. So I anticipated it well.

He could have been substituted with any other character and the point that doors can go to the sun would have remained contact.

Depends on what you want to show.

I did use Atom as an example of Apollo's physical strength because Atom himself expressed fear that Apollo would kill him if the fight remained physical (and Atom ultimately defeated Apollo through molecule manipulation).

Because Captain Atom relies more on his Quantom Hax Powers than in physical strenght, contrary to Blue Marvel who some energy manipulation (on a lesser degree than Cap) but can use it usefully here.

RealityWarper then insisted that Atom was KO'd so it didn't count, even though Atom's presence there was, as I said, irrelevant.

Yep. I mistaken and I had to re read the comic book. Nobody's perfect I guess.

I made the mistake of playing along and pointed out that Atom has multiple thought boxes on those panels, which casts doubt on the idea that he was KO'd given that it is hard to think while not conscious.

Yeah. It happens. But the point is that he refused the physical fight as he probably couldn't win this way. Then he tricked Apollo and won.

We can notice that he said to Apollo that he would take a while for him to kill him by physical means so he had to get more energy from the Sun. Then Apollo opened a door. Slowly carried a non-fighting back Captain Atom... And lost the fight when Cap overloaded him.

You have thoughts, surely you've noticed that they're only around when you're awake. RealityWarper then went with a brand new definition of KO'd, still not grasping the point that Captain Atom's presence was entirely irrelevant. What could come of continuing?

I used the term technical KO.

technical knockout :

A victory in boxing, with immediate termination of the match, awarded by the referee when it appears that one fighter is too badly injured to continue.So we accord to the fact that Cap Atom was awake but unable to strike back by physical means. We are close to that definition if you want my opinion.

There is no point in debating with people whose idea of a response consists of "lol, you can't say that, i debunked it" regardless of whether any debunking actually took place or not. This thread was a waste of time from start to finish.

Not really. I made some mistakes but I learned a lot about debating here.

If we goes by the logic of this Apollo's feat, he has to subdue physically Blue Marvel in the first place before carrying him through a door.

How is that supposed to happen ?

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#288 thedailybagel  Moderator

LMAO!

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i...I dont even...

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#291 thedailybagel  Moderator
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@realitywarper: the sad truth is that I don't really like bagels...

Why not ?

I ate my first one in London.

It was a great experience. :p

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@kingant27:

as we were debunking him, not the other way around.

no...

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@kingant27:

as we were debunking him, not the other way around.

no...

I have new arguments about the doors.
I will post them later.

Suspense ! :D

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...............

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#297  Edited By RealityWarper

TRIBUTE TO JIM MORISSON :

Ok so there is this scan with Apollo and the members of The Authority in a fight and the team are teleported through The Doors, let's see the full context :

The Authority is engaged in a fight with another team :

No Caption Provided

I) The team leaders speak together and realize that it's wrong to fight each other.

No Caption Provided

II) Both team are threatened by missiles with superman-like guys inside them :

So The Doctor and Jenny Quantum decide to save both team with the use of their powers and The Carrier's doors.

No Caption Provided

The Doctor can't turn the missiles into dust because they will explode whatever he do and kill both teams.

But The Doctor got a plan :

"All the more reason to decamp to The Carrier until we can sort out this conflict. These reapers can explode harmlessly in the Desert.

Jenny, do you mind ? Your Quantum Energies will facilitate this more easily..."

So The Doctor will combine his powers with The Carrier's Doors and Jenny's Quantum Energies.

III) Missiles + Clones of The Heigh inside : Both teams are in an emergency to evacuate the area.

No Caption Provided

IV) The plan of The Doc' and the use of the doors : "...and 666-plus escape routes might even tax The Carrier's considerable abilities."

No Caption Provided

So we clearly see that this feat is not the feat of Apollo.

It's The Doctor + The Carrier + Jenny Quantum's energies.

That's impossible to do for Apollo as he don't dispose of The Doctor powers, nor Jenny Quantum powers and energies, nor a subtle use of The Doors.

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@adamtrmm said:

If Blue Marvel surviving the sun is a speculation because he never had a showing to prove that, how does it work the opposite way? How can one say he WON'T survive near it without backing it up canonically if this showing doesn't exist?

Double standard or flawed logic?

This is the most depressing thread I've ever read.

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#299  Edited By RealityWarper

@adamtrmm said:

If Blue Marvel surviving the sun is a speculation because he never had a showing to prove that, how does it work the opposite way? How can one say he WON'T survive near it without backing it up canonically if this showing doesn't exist?

Double standard or flawed logic?

@dredeuced said:

This is the most depressing thread I've ever read.

+1

No Caption Provided

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This thread is hilarious lol

For reasons already stated, I think Apollo takes the victory here.