"Darkseid doesn't have nano- or even microsecond speed reaction. So... Quasar solo Surfer solo Gladiator solo BRB probably solo too. "
No, just no....... "
Ow, yes. DS isn't a speedster, while almost everyone on Annihilators is.
@whacknasty said:
" @czarny_samael said:
" Darkseid doesn't have nano- or even microsecond speed reaction. So... Quasar solo Surfer solo Gladiator solo BRB probably solo too. "
That may be true...but you dont think Darkseid would have enough durability to be able to tank a few blows and then react somehow? Hmm... "
Few blows - yes. But thousands? Millions?
Besides look what they can do too him: Surfer - thousands of planet busting shots or creating two black holes on two sides of DS to tear him apart. Pah, he can even summon some nearest star, and shoot Darkseid with its power before DS will even start to think about battle.
Quasar is the easiest. He can just take DS to Quantum Zone and use power of whole Universe to defeat him.
Gladiator is planet buster. BRB is planet buster. Both can punch him so much times with that power that he won't be able to do a one thing.
" @czarny_samael: As i said, he's dealt with fast people... "
Dealling with fast people by slow people is PIS. He have to prove it. And I know that he didn't, because I've asked many DC and Darkseid fans for scans and none of them show me anything special.
" @czarny_samael: As i said, he's dealt with fast people... "
Dealling with fast people by slow people is PIS. He have to prove it. And I know that he didn't, because I've asked many DC and Darkseid fans for scans and none of them show me anything special. "
How is it PIS? He's fought Superman, Flash, Wonder Woman, etc. And he did it consistentley.
" @czarny_samael: As i said, he's dealt with fast people... "
Dealling with fast people by slow people is PIS. He have to prove it. And I know that he didn't, because I've asked many DC and Darkseid fans for scans and none of them show me anything special. "
How is it PIS? He's fought Superman, Flash, Wonder Woman, etc. And he did it consistentley. "
Until You can prove that he or they used their speed in that level, it is PIS. Hulk, Thanos Blaastar, Annihilus and other bricks also fought with speedsters and won. They've did it, because if writers would allow speedsters to use their reaction speed in full each time, they would win every battle before it would even start.
" @czarny_samael: As i said, he's dealt with fast people... "
Dealling with fast people by slow people is PIS. He have to prove it. And I know that he didn't, because I've asked many DC and Darkseid fans for scans and none of them show me anything special. "
How is it PIS? He's fought Superman, Flash, Wonder Woman, etc. And he did it consistentley. "
Until You can prove that he or they used their speed in that level, it is PIS. Hulk, Thanos Blaastar, Annihilus and other bricks also fought with speedsters and won. They've did it, because if writers would allow speedsters to use their reaction speed in full each time, they would win every battle before it would even start. "
It's not PIS. Since he was first published he's delt with fast people. He's done it conistentley. If it's conistent it isn't PIS. Only in some rare cases it is. And how do you know they will Speed Blitz.
" Darkseid doesn't have nano- or even microsecond speed reaction. So... Quasar solo Surfer solo Gladiator solo BRB probably solo too. "
That may be true...but you dont think Darkseid would have enough durability to be able to tank a few blows and then react somehow? Hmm... "
Few blows - yes. But thousands? Millions? Besides look what they can do too him: Surfer - thousands of planet busting shots or creating two black holes on two sides of DS to tear him apart. Pah, he can even summon some nearest star, and shoot Darkseid with its power before DS will even start to think about battle. Quasar is the easiest. He can just take DS to Quantum Zone and use power of whole Universe to defeat him. Gladiator is planet buster. BRB is planet buster. Both can punch him so much times with that power that he won't be able to do a one thing. "
Yes Surfer could create a Black Hole what not, but I thought you were talking about things he could do to blitz Darkseid. As far as I know, that's not one of the things surfer has been shown to be able to do in microseconds or w/e, I don't know if he produce thousands of planet busting shots in a second either.
@comicdude23 said:
" @czarny_samael: As i said, he's dealt with fast people... "
It's relevant to say how he did it and how fast they were moving
For the record I say the Annhilators win, but one on one Darkseid would slaughter any of them. Surfer would last the longest but would get wrecked. In a team effort they win, but several of them will die here.
" "Until You can prove that he or they used their speed in that level, it is PIS. Hulk, Thanos Blaastar, Annihilus and other bricks also fought with speedsters and won. They've did it, because if writers would allow speedsters to use their reaction speed in full each time, they would win every battle before it would even start. "
It's not PIS. Since he was first published he's delt with fast people. He's done it conistentley. If it's conistent it isn't PIS. Only in some rare cases it is. And how do you know they will Speed Blitz. "
1.It is PIS. Writers always doing this trick. If You have a nanosecond reaction speed, You want be even touched by people with normal reaction speed. 2.So You admitt that if they will use it, DS is going down?
@MrDirector786 : We were talking about that situations already. 1.Darkseid was fused with Etrigan in first two scans. He isn't doing it on his own power. 2.There is nothing would suggest that Superman is using light speed there. 3.See above. Besides, DS is actually getting punched by Supe.
@Cosmic_Falcon said:
" @czarny_samael said:
" Darkseid doesn't have nano- or even microsecond speed reaction. So... Quasar solo Surfer solo Gladiator solo BRB probably solo too. "
Sorry but this has to be one of the dumbest statements I have ever heard. "
Facts, not opinions.
@vuviper said:
" @czarny_samael said:
"Few blows - yes. But thousands? Millions? Besides look what they can do too him: Surfer - thousands of planet busting shots or creating two black holes on two sides of DS to tear him apart. Pah, he can even summon some nearest star, and shoot Darkseid with its power before DS will even start to think about battle. Quasar is the easiest. He can just take DS to Quantum Zone and use power of whole Universe to defeat him. Gladiator is planet buster. BRB is planet buster. Both can punch him so much times with that power that he won't be able to do a one thing. "
Yes Surfer could create a Black Hole what not, but I thought you were talking about things he could do to blitz Darkseid. As far as I know, that's not one of the things surfer has been shown to be able to do in microseconds or w/e, I don't know if he produce thousands of planet busting shots in a second either. "
1.You've got a point in first one. I agree, this could be a problem. 2.Surfer can react, that fast and his power gives him ability to make multiple planet busting shots so he will be able to strike many of them in one second.
" Darkseid doesn't have nano- or even microsecond speed reaction. So... Quasar solo Surfer solo Gladiator solo BRB probably solo too. "
Sorry but this has to be one of the dumbest statements I have ever heard. "
Facts, not opinions.
No facts here, just a bias and uneducated statement, even on the other thread you're stating that Thor can beat Superman even though Thor himself has no nanosecond reaction time. So you're full of it. Darkseid could kill anyone here 1 on 1 and they only win due to sheer numbers.
@MrDirector786 : We were talking about that situations already. 1.Darkseid was fused with Etrigan in first two scans. He isn't doing it on his own power. 2.There is nothing would suggest that Superman is using light speed there. 3.See above. Besides, DS is actually getting punched by Supe. "
1. He needed Etrigan to get into that dimension. He wasn't affecting his speed in any way. 2. I'll admit there's no proof he was going at light speed. 3. Darkseid got blitzed but then he immediately just swatted him away. Superman was also really pissed at that point because he believed Supergirl to have been killed by Darkseid. Darkseid could just swat any of the team away if they tried to blitz him.
"Darkseid doesn't have nano- or even microsecond speed reaction. So... Quasar solo Surfer solo Gladiator solo BRB probably solo too. "
So you get a thread i was bebating in locked because i said blue marvel can beat darkseid and here you are in my thread saying gladiator can solo him. Reprehensible. "
Black Adam doesn't have nanosecond speed reaction. This is the point.
@Cosmic_Falcon said:
" @czarny_samael said:
" Facts, not opinions.
No facts here, just a bias and uneducated statement, even on the other thread you're stating that Thor can beat Superman even though Thor himself has no nanosecond reaction time. So you're full of it. Darkseid could kill anyone here 1 on 1 and they only win due to sheer numbers. "
No. 1.Facts, because it was proven that these guys have nanoseconds speed reaction, while it was never proven that Darkseid have even microsecond speed reaction. 2.Thor without morals is as fast as 1/3 of light (according to Warlock and Thor was smashing Surfer at the time). Thor also used reaction speed to help Rulk from Black Hole and catch Hermes in the past. Also here You have a Thor using microsecond speed reaction:
If both are in morals: no one will use speedblitz. If both aren't: Both are close in speed.
"Few blows - yes. But thousands? Millions? Besides look what they can do too him: Surfer - thousands of planet busting shots or creating two black holes on two sides of DS to tear him apart. Pah, he can even summon some nearest star, and shoot Darkseid with its power before DS will even start to think about battle. Quasar is the easiest. He can just take DS to Quantum Zone and use power of whole Universe to defeat him. Gladiator is planet buster. BRB is planet buster. Both can punch him so much times with that power that he won't be able to do a one thing. "
Yes Surfer could create a Black Hole what not, but I thought you were talking about things he could do to blitz Darkseid. As far as I know, that's not one of the things surfer has been shown to be able to do in microseconds or w/e, I don't know if he produce thousands of planet busting shots in a second either. "
1.You've got a point in first one. I agree, this could be a problem. 2.Surfer can react, that fast and his power gives him ability to make multiple planet busting shots so he will be able to strike many of them in one second. "
Yes, but you have 2 separate things, he can REACT in a nanosecond and he has shown to be able to produce planet busting shots. This alone does not show that he can produce multiple planet busting shots in a nanosecond. 1st, we don't know how fast he can muster the energy for one, but assuming it's not rate limiting, we need to consider how many times he could be able to do so in just fractions of a second. I am well aware that Silver Surfer can think, fly, process information at an alarmingly fast rate, but it's the same problem as the black hole.
In case you don't know what I'm talking about, someone might be able to process and execute fast enough to type 100 words per minute. They may also be a skilled knife thrower, that does not mean, however, that they can throw 100 knives per minute.
No facts here, just a bias and uneducated statement, even on the other thread you're stating that Thor can beat Superman even though Thor himself has no nanosecond reaction time. So you're full of it. Darkseid could kill anyone here 1 on 1 and they only win due to sheer numbers. "
No. 1.Facts, because it was proven that these guys have nanoseconds speed reaction, while it was never proven that Darkseid have even microsecond speed reaction. 2.Thor without morals is as fast as 1/3 of light (according to Warlock and Thor was smashing Surfer at the time). Thor also used reaction speed to help Rulk from Black Hole and catch Hermes in the past. Also here You have a Thor using microsecond speed reaction:
If both are in morals: no one will use speedblitz. If both aren't: Both are close in speed. "
Yes, you are incredibly bias and uneducated 1. It's been proven on the previous thread that Darkseid has microsecond reaction time. Director already explained it, Darkseid only needed Etrigan to enter the dimension and his speed wasn't amped by him at all. 2. And Superman has shown to be at least several thousand times faster then light. At the very best Thor might be = to Darkseid in reaction time, the only difference is Darkseid doesn't have the low showings like being blitzed by a street level character and having trouble hitting Quicksilver. And Darkseid has better reaction feats then Thor does. BTW Thor has beaten nearly every member of the Annhilators before, he's defeated Surfer, Gladiator and Bill at least. So Darkseid would wreck any of those 3, probably at the same time.
With morals on Superman has speed blitzed before [Imperiex is the best example] he will blitz Thor with or without morals. No they aren't close in speed, Superman's reflexes are 1000x greater then Thor's and his movement speed is several thousand times greater
@MrDirector786 : We were talking about that situations already. 1.Darkseid was fused with Etrigan in first two scans. He isn't doing it on his own power. 2.There is nothing would suggest that Superman is using light speed there. 3.See above. Besides, DS is actually getting punched by Supe. "
1. He needed Etrigan to get into that dimension. He wasn't affecting his speed in any way. 2. I'll admit there's no proof he was going at light speed. 3. Darkseid got blitzed but then he immediately just swatted him away. Superman was also really pissed at that point because he believed Supergirl to have been killed by Darkseid. Darkseid could just swat any of the team away if they tried to blitz him. "
1.DS had all Etrigan's power in that story, so he was boosted. So anything that was done there can't go to either: DS or Etrigan. It can be used only in battle DS with Etrigan's power vs. "xxx". 2.Ok. 3.I know what You're thinking about, but many speedsters was using their speed on Thanos in "some" degree. The same can be said about Hulk. And Drax. And many others. But in battle with these people I wouldn't use that fights to say that they can deal with speedsters, just because they've already defeated some of them, becuae I can't prove how fast that speedsters were attacking him. And we both know that if Northstar for example, will use his reaction speed against Hulk, he would see two hands trying to make a thunderclap thousands of times and he will be able to escape from it (besides, sound attack hiting light-speedes, is really unbelivable). But as me, You know that all this fights wouldn't make more than two pics and no one would be comics with them. I would rather suggest proving that DS can take so many punches/beams from speedsters, like Thanos.
@vuviper said:
" @czarny_samael said:
" @1.You've got a point in first one. I agree, this could be a problem. 2.Surfer can react, that fast and his power gives him ability to make multiple planet busting shots so he will be able to strike many of them in one second. "
Yes, but you have 2 separate things, he can REACT in a nanosecond and he has shown to be able to produce planet busting shots. This alone does not show that he can produce multiple planet busting shots in a nanosecond. 1st, we don't know how fast he can muster the energy for one, but assuming it's not rate limiting, we need to consider how many times he could be able to do so in just fractions of a second. I am well aware that Silver Surfer can think, fly, process information at an alarmingly fast rate, but it's the same problem as the black hole. In case you don't know what I'm talking about, someone might be able to process and execute fast enough to type 100 words per minute. They may also be a skilled knife thrower, that does not mean, however, that they can throw 100 knives per minute. "
1. Not multiple planet busting in nanosecond, but in one second. 2.You could have a point, if we wouldn't be sure that Surfer has in himself as much power as star (at least). Since we know it, we also know that he don't have to recharge. We could also say that Surfer would just strike one big-shot with power of all that beams, what would be even more effective IMO. I see Your point and it would be a case in that situation: Let say that we know that Anti-Man have exactly enough power to destroy a planet. Let say that he has nanosecond speed reaction. He will be able to shoot such a beam on DS much faster than Darkseid could react to that one, but don't know how much time he needs to recharge. In Surfer's case, we know that he has much more power than that and that he will use only a small fraction of his power to destory a planet. So we can be sure in 100% that it isn't a problem for him to make another that powerfull shot. Do You see my point?
" Darkseid has troubles with Superman alone, he's not taking a team that is full of guys on that lvl and even surpassing it. "
I agree that the team wins but more then half of the time, Darkseid pounds the hell out of Superman. "
Most recent showings weren't very favourable to DS, but we better stay by this because the only thing it will generated by Superman vs DS is a conversation full of avatars, retcons and shouldn't, couldn't, wouldn't.
Gladiator packs Superman power lvls, Quasar is a beast himself, BRB is almost Thor, Silver Surfer is even more beastly nowadays, and Ronan only helps in the overkill.
" Darkseid has troubles with Superman alone, he's not taking a team that is full of guys on that lvl and even surpassing it. "
I agree that the team wins but more then half of the time, Darkseid pounds the hell out of Superman. "
Most recent showings weren't very favourable to DS, but we better stay by this because the only thing it will generated by Superman vs DS is a conversation full of avatars, retcons and shouldn't, couldn't, wouldn't. Gladiator packs Superman power lvls, Quasar is a beast himself, BRB is almost Thor, Silver Surfer is even more beastly nowadays, and Ronan only helps in the overkill. "
If you're talking about the fight in Countdown, Darkseid took Superman down in one attack. I've already agreed that the Annihilators take it.
"2. And Superman has shown to be at least several thousand times faster then light. At the very best Thor might be = to Darkseid in reaction time, the only difference is Darkseid doesn't have the low showings like being blitzed by a street level character and having trouble hitting Quicksilver."
He didn't have trouble tagging Quick Silver.
His lightning had trouble, he himself bltized Quicksilver with a hammer smash.
"Darkseid doesn't have nano- or even microsecond speed reaction. So... Quasar solo Surfer solo Gladiator solo BRB probably solo too. "
So you get a thread i was bebating in locked because i said blue marvel can beat darkseid and here you are in my thread saying gladiator can solo him. Reprehensible. "
Black Adam doesn't have nanosecond speed reaction. This is the point.
@Cosmic_Falcon said:
" @czarny_samael said:
" Facts, not opinions.
No facts here, just a bias and uneducated statement, even on the other thread you're stating that Thor can beat Superman even though Thor himself has no nanosecond reaction time. So you're full of it. Darkseid could kill anyone here 1 on 1 and they only win due to sheer numbers. "
No. 1.Facts, because it was proven that these guys have nanoseconds speed reaction, while it was never proven that Darkseid have even microsecond speed reaction. 2.Thor without morals is as fast as 1/3 of light (according to Warlock and Thor was smashing Surfer at the time). Thor also used reaction speed to help Rulk from Black Hole and catch Hermes in the past. Also here You have a Thor using microsecond speed reaction:
If both are in morals: no one will use speedblitz. If both aren't: Both are close in speed. "
i thought warlock states thor was as t fast he lighting he commands. he didn't use speed reaction to help rulk, that was travel speed, as mjolnir let thor to travel faster than light. where does reaction speed come in to play? hermes is not even light speed. photon was able to outrun hermes, stating nothing is faster than light.
i thought warlock states thor was as t fast he lighting he commands. he didn't use speed reaction to help rulk, that was travel speed, as mjolnir let thor to travel faster than light. where does reaction speed come in to play? hermes is not even light speed. photon was able to outrun hermes, stating nothing is faster than light. "
Easily faster than Lightning, the only time he is not, is when's jobbing. Which he has done a bit of both, one day Wolverine is running around too fast for Thor to tag, the next Thor one shots Quick Silver or gets bullrushed by the Sentry and BFRed him with a punch or Outrun Ego in hyperspace without a problem.
" @Hellos:He sure didn't have trouble dodging his lighting which according to Czarny is 1/3 the speed of light. "
I mentioned that in my post. =P As long as Thor has Mjolnir, he can move pretty fast(To be fair he's been shown to be fast without it, depending on who is writing.) I honestly don't know how fast Thor's lightning is or how fast normal lightning is off hand.
Thor does job though, either for plot or his own self holding back.
" Darkseid has troubles with Superman alone, he's not taking a team that is full of guys on that lvl and even surpassing it. "
I agree that the team wins but more then half of the time, Darkseid pounds the hell out of Superman. "
Most recent showings weren't very favourable to DS, but we better stay by this because the only thing it will generated by Superman vs DS is a conversation full of avatars, retcons and shouldn't, couldn't, wouldn't. Gladiator packs Superman power lvls, Quasar is a beast himself, BRB is almost Thor, Silver Surfer is even more beastly nowadays, and Ronan only helps in the overkill. "
If you're talking about the fight in Countdown, Darkseid took Superman down in one attack. I've already agreed that the Annihilators take it. "
Not just countdown, Apocalips now, S/B, countdown, ever since OWaW, DS never had a clear advantage over Superman, the upgrade he got put him over DS, many ppl simply refuse zealously to believe in that and prefer to get excuses rather than wanting DS to show that clearly like he did in the old days.
And in Countdown Superman was smacking DS around until DS turned Jimmy into K, that's not being more powerfull, a thug could kick Superman if Superman was surrounded by K.
About the annihilators I was just enumerating the reason why they should more than take this.
" 1. Not multiple planet busting in nanosecond, but in one second. 2.You could have a point, if we wouldn't be sure that Surfer has in himself as much power as star (at least). Since we know it, we also know that he don't have to recharge. We could also say that Surfer would just strike one big-shot with power of all that beams, what would be even more effective IMO. I see Your point and it would be a case in that situation: Let say that we know that Anti-Man have exactly enough power to destroy a planet. Let say that he has nanosecond speed reaction. He will be able to shoot such a beam on DS much faster than Darkseid could react to that one, but don't know how much time he needs to recharge. In Surfer's case, we know that he has much more power than that and that he will use only a small fraction of his power to destory a planet. So we can be sure in 100% that it isn't a problem for him to make another that powerfull shot. Do You see my point? "
1, I meant ONE planet busting shot PER nanosecond. If DS has microsecond reaction time, in order for surfer to hit him with 1000 before he reacts, he must produce one per nanosecond. 2. I'm sure he has enough energy and doesn't need to recharge (well maybe after 1000), it's not about that, it's about how fast he can summon the energy, I don't believe he can draw upon it fast enough to produce that many powerful blasts in such a short amount of time. You're talking about amount of energy (Joules) I'm talking about energy/second (Watts). My knifethrowing typist analogy still applies, he could easily throw 100 knives without needing to rest, it's still doesn't mean he can throw 100 per minute. @czarny_samael said:
" @vuviper said:
" @czarny_samael: Do you have anything showing Gladiator and Quasar have near nanosecond reaction time? "
This ones:
Gallery
I feel like the term reaction time is often abused here. The first example, Quasar isn't actually reacting to anything. I always find these a little weak as they really ususally demonstrate the awareness of nanoseconds. The ones for Flash, Superman, and Silver Surfer I like a little bit better just because it's their own thoughts, their is no reason for exaggeration. Final problem with that scan is that he's referring to Lord Mar-vell and not himself.
The Gladiator scan is a different story completely. Beautiful, it is truly a reaction time feat, the punch occurred within nanoseconds, and he was able to react to it.
No facts here, just a bias and uneducated statement, even on the other thread you're stating that Thor can beat Superman even though Thor himself has no nanosecond reaction time. So you're full of it. Darkseid could kill anyone here 1 on 1 and they only win due to sheer numbers. "
No. 1.Facts, because it was proven that these guys have nanoseconds speed reaction, while it was never proven that Darkseid have even microsecond speed reaction. 2.Thor without morals is as fast as 1/3 of light (according to Warlock and Thor was smashing Surfer at the time). Thor also used reaction speed to help Rulk from Black Hole and catch Hermes in the past. Also here You have a Thor using microsecond speed reaction:
If both are in morals: no one will use speedblitz. If both aren't: Both are close in speed. "
Yes, you are incredibly bias and uneducated 1. It's been proven on the previous thread that Darkseid has microsecond reaction time. Director already explained it, Darkseid only needed Etrigan to enter the dimension and his speed wasn't amped by him at all. 2. And Superman has shown to be at least several thousand times faster then light. At the very best Thor might be = to Darkseid in reaction time, the only difference is Darkseid doesn't have the low showings like being blitzed by a street level character and having trouble hitting Quicksilver. And Darkseid has better reaction feats then Thor does. BTW Thor has beaten nearly every member of the Annhilators before, he's defeated Surfer, Gladiator and Bill at least. So Darkseid would wreck any of those 3, probably at the same time. With morals on Superman has speed blitzed before [Imperiex is the best example] he will blitz Thor with or without morals. No they aren't close in speed, Superman's reflexes are 1000x greater then Thor's and his movement speed is several thousand times greater "
superman is " several thousand times faster than light" prove it. now, you are assuming thor is equal to darkside in reaction time, which you don't have any proof to that statement. if you are refering when spiderman blitz thor: first, that was eric masterson thor: second, even if that was not thor odinson, still eric masterson is suppossed to be equal to thor in every physical aspect, meaning he is faster than human eye can follow. i would call that ocassion bad writting as eric masteron, at least, should have been able to keep up with spiderman. thor have never have, to my knowledge, problems with quicksilver, in fact, in one time thor reacts faster than him. recently in an issue of the mighty avengers he took out quicksilver without much trouble. you first said darkseid was equal to thor in reaction time, now you say darkseid is has better reaction time according to feats, what feats my i ask? using a,b,c logic is not going to give darkseid the victory in this battle, i don't see the point of thor beating most of the members of the annhilators, that is irrelevant to the discussion. did you know SS has been upgraded since the last time he fought thor?, BRB is at least equal to thor-only he does not holds back- and can take and produce planet buster attacks, without too much trouble. the same for gladiator, and he actually beat thor in one of their fights. superman blitzing thor is irrelevant to the discussion.
now you have to proof darkseid has better reaction time than thor, and that superman is " several hundred thousands faster than light"
" Darkseid has troubles with Superman alone, he's not taking a team that is full of guys on that lvl and even surpassing it. "
I agree that the team wins but more then half of the time, Darkseid pounds the hell out of Superman. "
Most recent showings weren't very favourable to DS, but we better stay by this because the only thing it will generated by Superman vs DS is a conversation full of avatars, retcons and shouldn't, couldn't, wouldn't. Gladiator packs Superman power lvls, Quasar is a beast himself, BRB is almost Thor, Silver Surfer is even more beastly nowadays, and Ronan only helps in the overkill. "
If you're talking about the fight in Countdown, Darkseid took Superman down in one attack. I've already agreed that the Annihilators take it. "
Not just countdown, Apocalips now, S/B, countdown, ever since OWaW, DS never had a clear advantage over Superman, the upgrade he got put him over DS, many ppl simply refuse zealously to believe in that and prefer to get excuses rather than wanting DS to show that clearly like he did in the old days. And in Countdown Superman was smacking DS around until DS turned Jimmy into K, that's not being more powerfull, a thug could kick Superman if Superman was surrounded by K. About the annihilators I was just enumerating the reason why they should more than take this. "
Apokalips now and Superman Batman are two instances of terrible writing, especially Superman Batman where Loeb treats Superman like god. As far as Countdown, last I checked transmutation was a part of Darkseid's power set, similar arguments come from Silver Surfer vs Superman threads where they argue that Silver Surfer can use red sun radiation or whatever to beat him easily. When written properly Darkseid generally smacks Superman around easily, even in Superman own Origin Story he admitted that it would be suicide to try to fight Darkseid. Every instance of Superman doing well against Darkseid is generally a convoluted mess of a storyline written by someone who knows little about the character [Loeb is the biggest example] even with Apokalips now the only thing Schultz ever wrote was that god forsaken POS crossover with Superman/Batman and Alien and Predator.
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