Altair vs Ezio vs Connor

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kickazz786

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#151  Edited By kickazz786

@TheMightyAvenger said:

@kickazz786: I know your post was not directed at me but there are some things I would like to point out.

First you claim Altair never had any help, that's not true in the first game he had a lot of help, Al Mualim informed him who his targets were, and the Assassin's that were on Acre, Damascus and Jerusalem helped him make plans to kill the templars. So claiming he never required help is untrue.

You make Ezio sound like he was a complete failure, that's not true. It's fact that the templars were powerful when compared to the Assassin's in Ezio's time, than they were in Altair's, It's a fact that their leader was the most powerful man in Europe at the time, Ezio had to actually track down the entire order while Altair had his work cut short by Al Mualim. Ezio brought the Assassin's back from their ruin in Italy, tracked and killed all of the Templar leaders, he had help sure but he did most of it alone.

Also as I remember Rodrigo only "beat" Ezio thanks to the Staff, and the fact that he could use it more effectively than Ezio could use the Apple, Ezio tackled him and thought he was unconscious then tried to stab him rodrigo grabbed the Staff and used it's power to thorw Ezio away, they fight and Ezio has Rodrigo on his knees, he only survived by using the Staff's power, he goes invisible and the takes the Apple then he stabs Ezio who proceds to get up and whoop Rodrigo in a fist fight.

I'm not saying Ezio is better, I hoenstly don't think he is a better Assassin overall, maybe a better fighter but not a better Assassin.

Actually, Altair didn't need the help of the Assassins in Acre, Damascus, or Jerusalem, then merely provided him a place to stay. Altair did the investigations alone, contacted spies within the city, eves dropped on the guards and pickpocketed them to gain information. Not only that, every main Templar he killed, he did it alone while they were surrounded by guards. Ezio needed Mario and the others for many of his attacks on the Templars in AC2.

Ezio isn't a failure but compared to Altair, his wisdom and achievements are lower. Ezio himself looked up to Altair. Altair spread the creed throughout while studying that apple and maintaining the a family. He was multitasking and he had an impact even amongst the ruins of Masyaf caused by Abbas. Not only was Altair a great fighter, he was a legend who impacted those around him, impacted Giovanni Auditore, impacted Ezio Auditore and Desmond. Like you said, the post isn't directed towards you, so I wouldn't get involved in this. I've been playing devils advocate against Monster, and my words will seem "harsher" when another person looks at it. Monster has been demeaning Altair since the beginning of the thread. If you do want to get involved I would suggest looking up my posts from the past 3-4 pages where I clearly stated Ezio is my favorite. Best not to get involved in someone else's debate.

And as far as Ezio vs Rodrigo, that's exactly my point, Ezio wasn't strong enough to withstand the power of the apple, Altair mastered the apple.

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kickazz786

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#152  Edited By kickazz786

@MonsterStomp said:

@kickazz786 said:

1. It's not speculation if its backed with calculations. 10 Templars in 3 months is a faster kill rate than 19 Templars in 22 years. It's simple arithmetic.

2. Nothing you have said has proved me wrong. You've gotten proved wrong by almost everyone whose been debating you here. The face rubbing is needed since you're practically insulting a part of a game without any real knowledge of it and honestly you can't expect to make false claims in the real world and expect to get away with it. You have to understand some people are hard core gamers and like to stick to facts about the games. I've been playing devils advocate with you. Yes I tease you with Ezio but as I've stated before; Ezio is my favorite playable character, I relate more with him when I played the games. Altair to me is a boring guy, but that doesn't mean Ezio is better than him. He's just more fun to play with that's all. Take this debate as a learning experience, it's not supposed to offend you. If your going to have strong opinions against something, you have to provide concrete evidence. It's one thing to be humble in your approach in a debate, but if your going to down right act as if Altair is a piece of junk, your going to need to back it up. And so far, you haven't done a good job of it.

A. Wrong. Read books on Crusaders and Saladin's army. Templars were very strong and skilled during the 1100s.

B. Nope. Speculation on your part that's all. Killing more men even in the real world doesn't mean the opposition had more power. For instance, a nation may kill more men and generals in a war against another nation but that doesn't necessarily mean that opposing nation is more powerful, it simply means there's more of them. For instance, the U.S had far less military than Iraq in the Gulf War during 1990-1991, but whooped Iraq's butt.

2. continued.

A. Doesn't matter, Ezio needed help in his life and a lot of it. Altair did not.

B. Actually you're the one who brought up Ezio's "multitasking" during Revelations. May be you should read your own posts.

Leonardo helped design Ezio's armor, without him Ezio would not survive. He gave Ezio his flying "plane", without it Ezio wouldn't have succeeded. Leonardo helped Ezio more than the other way. Ezio NEEDED Leonardo. Open a history book and read about Leonardo Da Vinci, even in the real world, his contributions are far beyond what most inventors have given to us.

I think Misterguyman just owned you on the power of Templars comparison between the Crusades and Renaissance. Refer to that to learn some facts. Looks like your point about Templar power and Ezio's struggle during Renaissance just backfired on you. He provided you with facts. "Templar Golden Age" during Crusades. All you did was speculate that Templars were more powerful during Ezio's time. Maybe this entire time you've been delusional about the Templars being so powerful during Ezio's time because Ezio did a bad job of getting to them. Maybe Altair just did such a great job in his legacy that it made the Templars look horrible.

Ezio was a rookie for 22 years? Jeez and you think this guy is a better Assassin than 26 year old Master Assassin Altair? Sounds like an excuse your making up for Ezio. 10 Templars 3 months. 19 Templars 22 years. That's all I'm going to say. Ezio didn't have much of a family. In fact Claudia his sister yelled at him that he pretty much abandoned her and she's been taking care of herself. Perhaps re-play the games? Altair got married and raised two sons his whole life while studying the apple and spreading the creed and killing Templars. Ezio sucked at watching over Claudia and his mom. He pretty much got owned by Claudia in Brotherhood, when he finally realizes that she has Assassin blood in her as well and has been taking care of herself. Face it, Altair was a well-rounded human being. Ezio, not nearly as good.

As far as the mercenaries and thieves, it was more like Ezio was helped by them. Sure he helped them but he required the assistance of his recruits. Altair never did.

3. So now you get caught by me about how Ezio doesn't talk to gods and are trying to claim that by talking to Desmond he has wisdom? Lmao. This debate has been so entertaining. Minerva referred to Desmonds name in AC2, that's how Ezio realized she wasn't talking to him. It doesn't really make you wise when someone clearly says someone else's name when they're speaking. Also, Ezio didn't know his purpose till he was like 52. Till then all he did was seek revenge and form the Italian brotherhood. And you think this guy is supposedly the best assassin? Wow.

Ezio fainted when he touched the apple. His willpower is horrible compared to Altair. Altair used the apple to its full potential and utilized it as a weapon without inflicting himself any mental or physical pain. Unlocking the apples full potential is a big deal. 2 pages ago you yourself said that if Ezio had studied the apple for 20 years he could have mastered it. You yourself used those words. Now your saying its not a big deal? Come on man stop flip flopping.

Lol now so Altair is greedy? What's your problem with the protagonist of the game? At least I admit I like Ezio. Altair sacrificed more in his life than Ezio ever did. He exiled HIMSELF. He didn't kill Abbas when his wife convinced him not to. He spread the Creed. He escorted the Polo brothers safely. He wouldn't tell his son about the apple to protect him and let him live a happy life. He even locked himself in his own library and died that to prevent the apple getting in the wrong hands. Altair designed the library so that only an Assassin could unlock it. He made his own tomb. If anything, Altair is shown to be the least greedy in the series of all. Altair learned his lesson as a 26 year old arrogant assassin. He grew to become a great man.

4. Ezio literally got physically and mentally beat up by Borgia. Altair didn't. And as I said, Altair's experience in the beginning of AC1 paved the way for him to learn the truth and become a better person and to understand his purpose as an assassin. Ezio had a purpose and failed. Altair never had a purpose until Al-Mualim gave him a chance and told him about The Pieces of Eden.

It doesn't matter, Altair beat the crap out of the Templar knights without any help. Ezio needed help. That's the point. Plus as I pointed out before, refer to Misterguyman's post about Templar's golden age.

Altair fought Moloch, the twins and the Oracle with low grade, cloth type armor. Ezio fought Shahkulu with plate armor and a gun. Give Altair the advanced armor, he would own Ezio. Ezio couldn't survive a day in Altair's time. Not unless he was trained since he was young. Analogy: Give am 18 year old a gun, he can kill many man. Give a 18 year old nothing, he wont survive in a bad neighborhood. And don't talk about Moloch being feat-less in games. Altair was really only in one game and even then he has far more fans than Ezio who has a darn trilogy. The sad part is Connor has more supporters than Ezio too.

1. Total BS. 10 Templars in 3 months and then 18 Templars in 40 odd years? Its a speculation because you just assume Altair would have continued to kill 10 Templars each 3 months when the rest of his life clearly didn't show that. Dispite studying the Apple on and off. Ezio had other things to deal with as well and he still managed to kill more Templars in a shorter time. Just accept that Ezio did more to stop the Templars than Altair. Altair did more for the Brotherhood which is the main reason why he's Grand Master of the Assassin's, not because he is more skilled.

2. No. A debate is about friendly arguments to prove a point. At no point is a debate suppose to switch to offensive behaviour. Just because you proved me wrong in a point doesn't mean you can rub it in. Just childish behaviour TBH.

A. From what I've read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_the_Crusader_states

"The Crusaders were at times poorly united and their tactics lacked flexibility. The Crusading soldiers were also not very disciplined."

Saracen's didn't compare to Ottomans.

B. No. The fact that Ezio HAD to kill more Templar's in his time just proves how strong the Templar hold was. Don't compare army fights. This is about indurvidual men with power and resources. Like Obama, Dalai Lama, or even Hitler and BinLarden.

2. Continued.

A. Like I keep saying, Templar's were more in power and the Brotherhood was just begining to rise from the grave. Altair wouldn't last alone. Especially if the order is broken.

B. Yeah I bought that up about Revelations as an example, but you simply ignored the fact that Ezio had been doing it his entire life.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Leonado didn't design armor of any kind. And without Ezio's help Leonado wouldn't have survived passed Brotherhood.

Firstly I didn't know the Multiplayer was canon. Secondly, Ezio set something of the Golden Age for the Assassin's in Europe.

3. Alright I got one. Ezio mastered eagle sense. Something Altair in all his years didn't do.

4. Moloch is featless. Which suggests that Altair killing him wasn't much of a feat. Ezio took Shahkulu out by himself. Shahkulu has feats. According to history he fought small Ottoman armies. Ottomans have feats. According to history their fighting technique was comparable to the Mongol's. Mongol's have feats. In the Khan Dynasty they mowed nearly entire China down. Not to mention Ezio was being attacked by as well by Byzantines. Byzantines have feats. They beat the Ottomans in their first encounter.

Cusaders lost to Ottomans.

Altair would survive in Ezio's time, but he'd need the armor and all that stuff as well. He wouldn't be untouchable in combat either. Considering guns and other things would have tagged him. It'll be funny watching Altair try and survive in Ezio's time. Because apparently he doesn't need help, right? He has a place to stay right? He has cash and contacts to feed him intel right? Thats what I thought.

@MisterGuyMan

@MonsterStomp

"Doesn't necessarily mean nothing. And even if we did have a complete list of every member of the Templar Order I'm confident that Ezio will still come out on top with numbers. Kickazz786 had the idea that the most skilled assassin is one who kills with speed and efficiency. I proved him/her wrong when Ezio killed more in a shorter time."

Actually you haven't proved me wrong unless you think killing 19 Templars in 22 years (Ezio) is faster than killing 10 Templars in 3 months (Altair). Not sure what math you learned but if you divide the numerator by the denomination, the higher the number (as in the case of Altair's kills), means faster.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.Not at all, we're comparing the moment of both their lives without any priorities. Ezio merely found his purpose during Revelations and Altair during his 30s. In any case 10 Templars in 3 months is faster than 19 in 22 years. So as far as I'm concerned since an assassins job description requires speed and efficiency, seems like Altair wins. Not to mentions you yourself admitted 3 pages ago that Altair was the best at evading. So that's another important skill for an Assassin. And since this thread is about who is the better Assassin, I think we know the answer.

So now your saying Ezio did more to stop Templars because he killed more? But 3 posts ago your saying there were more Templars to begin with? How is killing more because there are more to begin with indicate that someone is a better assassin? You're contradicting yourself and not making any sense. The Soviet Union lost a ton more soldiers during WWII and still beat Germany. Numbers don't mean anything in victory. And especially in an individuals ability to fight. Maybe you should get that through your head.

2. And I will say it's childish behavior to make up fan fiction and make up false facts about Altair. You've been doing that a lot. Instead of proving why Ezio is a better Assassin, you're more focused on making up lies about Altair.

A. You need to open up some history books but it might be too late cause your talking to a history major. Here's a book lying next to me from my college days.

The Templars: The Dramatic History of the Knights Templar, the Most Powerful Military Order of the Crusades by Piers Paul Read.

Here's the description: In 1099, the city of Jerusalem, a possession of the Islamic Caliphate for over four hundred years, fell to an army of European knights intent on restoring the Cross to the Holy Lands. From the ranks of these holy warriors emerged an order of monks trained in both scripture and the military arts: The Knights of the Temple of Solomon, called the Templars.

Here's another source from the history channel called Lost Worlds: Knights Templar a video documentary.

"Templars were often the advance force in key battles of the Crusades, as the heavily armored knights on their warhorses would set out to charge at the enemy, in an attempt to break opposition lines. One of their most famous victories was in 1177 during the Battle of Montgisard, where some 500 Templar knights helped several thousand infantry to defeat Saladin's army of more than 26,000 soldiers."

Altair fended off Genghis Khan. One of the greatest leaders who controlled one of the deadliest armies in the world. You can try to argue against me about that historical fact but you won't win.

B. And even if I went along with your analogy, Ezio needed help. Altair didn't. If at best this cancels both out or makes Altair look superior.

2. Continued

A. Oh but he did last alone. He lasted alone against Robert De Sable and their Templar Knights and as I said before Templar Knights were no joke. Golden age of Templars during Altair's time where he single handedly took down the Grand Master.

B. Ezio did not do any type of multitasking like he did in Revelations. Altair did lots of major multitasking since he was 26. Ezio stayed in Italy most of his darn life, Altair traveled most of his.

___________________________________________________________________________________

Play AC2 again, Leonardo deciphered all the codex pages and rebuilt the hidden blade. He re-designed things for Ezio using Altair's pages. He gave Ezio his airplane that he designed.

And Altair paved the path for all of the Assassins, including Ezio. Ezio changed Europe. Altair changed both Europe and Asia.

3. Actually Ezio didn't "master" Eagle Sense. He needed to look at individuals separately, he couldn't do it in big crowds. And as far as Eagle Vision, Conner's Eagle vision destroyed both Altair's and Ezio's so if anything HE actually "mastered" something.

4. And Altair at an old age along with his son took care of the Mongols. So what's your point?

Oh so now you want to talk about how Altair couldn't last in Ezio's time without armor? Okay so your whole attempt at an argument about how Ezio beat Shahkulu and any of his accomplishments is a waste. Because apparently Ezio's armor and advance weapons was why he was able to do those things. So now you can't even say that "Templar Knights and Saracens and Crusaders were nothing compared to Ottomans" You comparing armies of two different time periods. This is exactly what I wanted you to say. Good job, you just wasted away another one of your arguments. All your posts about how Ezio defeated bigger armies and Templars than Altair just lost credibility. That's what I thought.

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TheMightyAvenger

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@kickazz786: I wasn't trying to imply you didn't like Ezio or that you were lowballing him, I read the whole thread and my post was just to say that there were things I don't agree with you. Sorry if it came of a little harsh, wasn't my intention.

Now Altair may have done the missions alone, but he already had the names of his targets given to him by Al Mualim, and the Assassin's were implied to already know where the targets were and did direct Altair on the right direction, Ezio had to find out who his targets were alone most of the time, and the Brotherhood wasn't nearly as strong when Ezio started as it was when Altair did. Altair is indeed a legend and is without a doubt one of the wisest Assassins, he studied more and had a greater understanding of the Apple than Ezio did, that's all true. But this is a fight so I assume they don't have access to the Pieces of Eden.

Ezio resisted the staff at first, Rodrigo was simply more skilled with it than Ezio was with the Apple at the time, Ezio could only use it to create copies during AC 2, in AC Brotherhood he could use it's power to turn his enemies against each other, which kind of shows an evolution in skill with the Apple. But as I said I believe the Pieces of Eden aren't alowed in this fight.

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#154  Edited By MisterGuyMan

@MonsterStomp said:

@MisterGuyMan: I accept that fighting Robert de Sable and a small group Templar Knights while not sustaining harm was impressive. But seriously, fighting the small crusader army wasn't THAT impressive. It's not like Altair was fighting Knights all the way through, he was fighting low ranking leveled soldiers comparable to the Navarre soldiers.

Ezio at his peak was fighting through Ottoman soldiers.

Only 3 confrontations ever happened between the Crusades and Ottomans IIRC. Battle of Nicopolis, where the Crusades outnumbered the Ottomans 2 - 1 (Knights Hospitalla forces also featured in this battle against the Ottomans). Battle of Varna, again outnumbered (Papal army was featured against the Ottomans). Battle of Kosovo (1448). Each of the 3 battles the Ottoman stomped the Crusades.

Ezio takes out Shahkulu and Byzantine soldiers. Possibly as good a feat as Altair's fight with Robert de Sable. I don't see Robert de Sable being called "invincible" in combat like Shahkulu was by his partisans.

If Altair were in Ezio's time, I doubt he'd be the same "untouchable" assassin in combat.

And Altair was spotted by a patrolling guard because he was losing his touch as a stealthy killer, the Mongol guard injured Altair and Qulan Gal saved his life. Altair gets injured in a 1v1 at age 52. Thats deffinately a low showing from Altair, considering Ezio was still at his prime at age 53.

1. So if Altair fighting through low level soldiers unscathed isn't impressive then what does make Ezio who failed to fight through low level soldiers without taking damage? You can't have it both ways. If Altair's feat at Arsuf isn't impressive then that makes Ezio look even worse since he failed to do even that.

2.. So are you implying that the same Ottomans that fought the Crusaders are somehow relevant to Ezio? They're hundreds of years apart. Surely you can't really think that they matter. Even worse, Crusader armies varied wildly so you comparisons even on a basic level is flawed.

3. Even if Altair weren't untouchable in Ezio's time, he'd still be better than Ezio. I listed a few of Ezio's showings. What's your excuse to explain why Ezio was potted by that Cardinal? Or when the actress got away? Or when Rodrigo got away the first time? There's nothing unique about them compared to Altair's missions. Ezio just failed. There's no heavily armored guy with advanced armor. There's no gunpower excuse. Nothing.

Moreover what you still ignore is that even if Ezio's opponents were better, Ezio, himself was betterarmed, better armored and had more unique tools so even then his failures were on him. Altair was always under armored and didn't have as many tools or help as Ezio. Now you're also ignoring that Altair ended the Templar Golden Age or at least fought in it.

4. To compare to that all you're offering is Altair's failure against literally the greatest military in history comparatively. Did you ignore what I posted earlier about how well the Khan was protected? Are you aware how even an average Mongol warrior was a dangerous warrior? Ezio has failed against far less.

@TheMightyAvenger said:

@MisterGuyMan: You're right he made a mistake he should have assassinated Rodrigo when he had the chance, he didn't he tackled Rodrigo then tried to assassinate him, he did not lose the fight out of lack of skill with a sword, he lost it because the fact that he inexperienced with the apple and that Rodrigo himself had a Piece of Eden.

True he could have been damaged during the fight in Vianna, we have no idea how though, he could have been shot from afar. And he fought Cesare while also facing many other soldiers and defeated them, Cesare's armor saved him quite a few times during the battle and it's the only reason he lasted so long. The soldier's as far as we know were just as skilled as tose that were with Robert.

I don't remember when the instance with the Cardinal took place, could you remind me? Also during Altair's Chronicles, Altair fails to sneak up on a Gypsy dancer so even when he was younger he still could be spotted by people without any remarkable skills.

Yes Khan was incredibly well guarded, as was the Pope to infiltrate the catedral of the most powerful man in Europe has to be at least comparable to infiltrating Khan's camp, and he wasn't spotted, the Pope was the most well guarded man in Europe at the time.

1. There's no excuse for Ezio. Rodrigo had an artifact but so did Ezio. This isn't even close to a fair fight. Ezio had his legendary armor, legendary sword, bombs and the element of surprise. Rodrigo had whatever he usually has whenever he hols a church service like his papal robes. Simply put when Ezio woke up that morning he said to himself that he was going to kill Rodrigo and got all his lethal assassin tools ready. Rodrigo said he was going to officiate a church service and got his church stuff ready. The apple even has better feats than the staff so Ezio has the advantage there too.

That's just for the actual sword fight. I didn't even get into how Ezio had an opportunity to kill him prior. I'm going by the games and in the games you either have to air assassinate him or shoot him with the hidden gun to start the next sequence. Altair, just for comparison, didn't have an artifact when he fought Mualim and Altair had no experience against artifacts at all. I'm pointing that out because you cited Ezio's lack of experience with the staff as a reason for the loss. Finally Mualim fully expected Altair to kill him whereas Rodrigo had no idea.

2. I'm going by the games in in the Siege of Vianna there's no opportunity to get shot by gunfire from long range once the memory starts.

3. Ezio tails one of the Cardinals, during the last Romulos memory. The Cardinal spots Ezio and Ezio has to chase him through the chapel instead.

4. Rodrigo's security isn't close to Ghenghis Khan's. The Khan is protected by the Keshig which is composed of 10,000 selected men. The Mongols themselves are renowned fighters and archers and a position in the Keshig was highly sought after and the Khan was considered as an almost religious figure. The Papacy at this was widely considered corrupt so the Khan was guarded far more zealously.

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TheMightyAvenger

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@MisterGuyMan:

1- Yes he had all his weapons, he won (or was winning) the actual fight he lost because of the staff, the apple does have better powers, Ezio simply didn't know how to use them, for exemple if Ezio could use the apple as he could when he had it in the end of Brotherhhod he would have won.

2- You sure? I could swear there were a group crossbowman in during the fight. Guess I was wrong then.

3- Oh yeah now I remember, thanks.

4- The Khan may have been more well guarded, but Altair, Qulan and Darim failed the infiltration they succeded when Khan tried to escape and was shot down by Qulan and Darim. The Pope was heavilly guarded and Ezio infiltrated alone, him not killing Rodrigo with a shot from the hidden gun or an air assassination is weird, no one without heavy armor can survive either, which is why I believe he only tackled Rodrigo.

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MonsterStomp

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#156  Edited By MonsterStomp

@kickazz786 said:

@MonsterStomp

"Doesn't necessarily mean nothing. And even if we did have a complete list of every member of the Templar Order I'm confident that Ezio will still come out on top with numbers. Kickazz786 had the idea that the most skilled assassin is one who kills with speed and efficiency. I proved him/her wrong when Ezio killed more in a shorter time."

Actually you haven't proved me wrong unless you think killing 19 Templars in 22 years (Ezio) is faster than killing 10 Templars in 3 months (Altair). Not sure what math you learned but if you divide the numerator by the denomination, the higher the number (as in the case of Altair's kills), means faster.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.Not at all, we're comparing the moment of both their lives without any priorities. Ezio merely found his purpose during Revelations and Altair during his 30s. In any case 10 Templars in 3 months is faster than 19 in 22 years. So as far as I'm concerned since an assassins job description requires speed and efficiency, seems like Altair wins. Not to mentions you yourself admitted 3 pages ago that Altair was the best at evading. So that's another important skill for an Assassin. And since this thread is about who is the better Assassin, I think we know the answer.

So now your saying Ezio did more to stop Templars because he killed more? But 3 posts ago your saying there were more Templars to begin with? How is killing more because there are more to begin with indicate that someone is a better assassin? You're contradicting yourself and not making any sense. The Soviet Union lost a ton more soldiers during WWII and still beat Germany. Numbers don't mean anything in victory. And especially in an individuals ability to fight. Maybe you should get that through your head.

2. And I will say it's childish behavior to make up fan fiction and make up false facts about Altair. You've been doing that a lot. Instead of proving why Ezio is a better Assassin, you're more focused on making up lies about Altair.

A. You need to open up some history books but it might be too late cause your talking to a history major. Here's a book lying next to me from my college days.

The Templars: The Dramatic History of the Knights Templar, the Most Powerful Military Order of the Crusades by Piers Paul Read.

Here's the description: In 1099, the city of Jerusalem, a possession of the Islamic Caliphate for over four hundred years, fell to an army of European knights intent on restoring the Cross to the Holy Lands. From the ranks of these holy warriors emerged an order of monks trained in both scripture and the military arts: The Knights of the Temple of Solomon, called the Templars.

Here's another source from the history channel called Lost Worlds: Knights Templar a video documentary.

"Templars were often the advance force in key battles of the Crusades, as the heavily armored knights on their warhorses would set out to charge at the enemy, in an attempt to break opposition lines. One of their most famous victories was in 1177 during the Battle of Montgisard, where some 500 Templar knights helped several thousand infantry to defeat Saladin's army of more than 26,000 soldiers."

Altair fended off Genghis Khan. One of the greatest leaders who controlled one of the deadliest armies in the world. You can try to argue against me about that historical fact but you won't win.

B. And even if I went along with your analogy, Ezio needed help. Altair didn't. If at best this cancels both out or makes Altair look superior.

2. Continued

A. Oh but he did last alone. He lasted alone against Robert De Sable and their Templar Knights and as I said before Templar Knights were no joke. Golden age of Templars during Altair's time where he single handedly took down the Grand Master.

B. Ezio did not do any type of multitasking like he did in Revelations. Altair did lots of major multitasking since he was 26. Ezio stayed in Italy most of his darn life, Altair traveled most of his.

___________________________________________________________________________________

Play AC2 again, Leonardo deciphered all the codex pages and rebuilt the hidden blade. He re-designed things for Ezio using Altair's pages. He gave Ezio his airplane that he designed.

And Altair paved the path for all of the Assassins, including Ezio. Ezio changed Europe. Altair changed both Europe and Asia.

3. Actually Ezio didn't "master" Eagle Sense. He needed to look at individuals separately, he couldn't do it in big crowds. And as far as Eagle Vision, Conner's Eagle vision destroyed both Altair's and Ezio's so if anything HE actually "mastered" something.

4. And Altair at an old age along with his son took care of the Mongols. So what's your point?

Oh so now you want to talk about how Altair couldn't last in Ezio's time without armor? Okay so your whole attempt at an argument about how Ezio beat Shahkulu and any of his accomplishments is a waste. Because apparently Ezio's armor and advance weapons was why he was able to do those things. So now you can't even say that "Templar Knights and Saracens and Crusaders were nothing compared to Ottomans" You comparing armies of two different time periods. This is exactly what I wanted you to say. Good job, you just wasted away another one of your arguments. All your posts about how Ezio defeated bigger armies and Templars than Altair just lost credibility. That's what I thought.

1. You're still not looking at the big picture here. Ezio killed 38 in 36 years where Altair killed 28 in 81 years. Thats if we consider when Ezio joined the assassin's at 17 to when he retired at 53. And Altair started training at 11 to dying in the order at 92. Even though there were more Templars to kill in his time, he still did it in the shorter life he lived. Also, Ezio killed Carlo Grimaldi in a days prep, Ezio also killed Marco Barbarigo in one night. Altair doesn't do it that fast.

Oh and stop comparing entire armies. We're talking about indurvidual people with power. The Pope was obviously the most powerful man in Europe. Prince Ahmet was obviously the most powerful man in the Ottoman Empire. Al Mualim didn't have power. He was actually a pretty stupid Templar. Khan had the most military power then.

2. Knights. They were well trained. Jannisaries and Ottoman forces were better. The Battle of Nicopolis, the Crusades outnumbered the Ottoman's 2 - 1, the Ottoman's obliterated them. Khan did have a dangerous military, but where in the books does it say Altair fought them head on?

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ezio needed help, yep. And? The Order was broken down, he needed help getting it back up. Doesn't matter if he got help, he orchestrated the whole thing. Altair wouldn't last alone in a broken order and no one Altair faced was as resourceful and powerful as the Pope. So no, Altair wouldn't last alone, not in Ezio's time and deffinately not by himself.

Ezio was always multitasking. From AC2 when Lorenzo made Ezio his personal assassin. In AC:B Ezio had to help the mercs, thieves and courtesans and on top of that he liberated several parts of Europe via his assassin apprentices. In AC:R Ezio not only liberated several parts of the Mediterranean, he delt with den recaptures, training 6 - 7 Master Assassin's. Learning different bomb techniques. Finding the Masyaf keys and liberating Constantinople, not to mention keeping a close eye on his love interest.

Leonado helped him so what? Its not like Ezio got it for free. Like I said, Leonado would already be dead if it weren't for Ezio. How many times did Leonado say to Ezio "I am in your debt"? More than 2 IIRC.

Altair didn't change Europe, nothing suggests that.

3. Ezio did master "Eagle Sense". Altair and Connor have "Eagle Vision". There is a difference. http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Eagle_VisionEagle Sense is a more heightened form of Eagle Vision. Ezio can pick up cold trails through concentration.

4. That made no sense.

Altair has less showings than Ezio. Fighting through a small army of low ranking Crusades. I can tell they're low ranking because of the difference in skill compared to Knights. You could practically one hit a soldier. The fight with Robert de Sable and his Knights, and his fight with Al Mualim, was probably the best we see.

  • I can compare the fight with Shahkulu with the fight with Robert de Sable because Shahkulu is a better fighter than Robert.
  • Ezio fought Papal guards to cover Caterina Sforza.
  • Ezio fought through Ottoman's while tracking Ahmet.
  • Ezio fought Papal eiltes.
  • Fending off a large scale attack from the Papal army long enough to save 500 civilians.
  • Dispite being shot he still manages to fight through the Papal army.

Ezio has way more showings.

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Connor on all rounds. He's a generation ahead of them.

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#158  Edited By MonsterStomp

@MisterGuyMan said:

@MonsterStomp said:

@MisterGuyMan: I accept that fighting Robert de Sable and a small group Templar Knights while not sustaining harm was impressive. But seriously, fighting the small crusader army wasn't THAT impressive. It's not like Altair was fighting Knights all the way through, he was fighting low ranking leveled soldiers comparable to the Navarre soldiers.

Ezio at his peak was fighting through Ottoman soldiers.

Only 3 confrontations ever happened between the Crusades and Ottomans IIRC. Battle of Nicopolis, where the Crusades outnumbered the Ottomans 2 - 1 (Knights Hospitalla forces also featured in this battle against the Ottomans). Battle of Varna, again outnumbered (Papal army was featured against the Ottomans). Battle of Kosovo (1448). Each of the 3 battles the Ottoman stomped the Crusades.

Ezio takes out Shahkulu and Byzantine soldiers. Possibly as good a feat as Altair's fight with Robert de Sable. I don't see Robert de Sable being called "invincible" in combat like Shahkulu was by his partisans.

If Altair were in Ezio's time, I doubt he'd be the same "untouchable" assassin in combat.

And Altair was spotted by a patrolling guard because he was losing his touch as a stealthy killer, the Mongol guard injured Altair and Qulan Gal saved his life. Altair gets injured in a 1v1 at age 52. Thats deffinately a low showing from Altair, considering Ezio was still at his prime at age 53.

1. So if Altair fighting through low level soldiers unscathed isn't impressive then what does make Ezio who failed to fight through low level soldiers without taking damage? You can't have it both ways. If Altair's feat at Arsuf isn't impressive then that makes Ezio look even worse since he failed to do even that.

2.. So are you implying that the same Ottomans that fought the Crusaders are somehow relevant to Ezio? They're hundreds of years apart. Surely you can't really think that they matter. Even worse, Crusader armies varied wildly so you comparisons even on a basic level is flawed.

3. Even if Altair weren't untouchable in Ezio's time, he'd still be better than Ezio. I listed a few of Ezio's showings. What's your excuse to explain why Ezio was potted by that Cardinal? Or when the actress got away? Or when Rodrigo got away the first time? There's nothing unique about them compared to Altair's missions. Ezio just failed. There's no heavily armored guy with advanced armor. There's no gunpower excuse. Nothing.

Moreover what you still ignore is that even if Ezio's opponents were better, Ezio, himself was betterarmed, better armored and had more unique tools so even then his failures were on him. Altair was always under armored and didn't have as many tools or help as Ezio. Now you're also ignoring that Altair ended the Templar Golden Age or at least fought in it.

4. To compare to that all you're offering is Altair's failure against literally the greatest military in history comparatively. Did you ignore what I posted earlier about how well the Khan was protected? Are you aware how even an average Mongol warrior was a dangerous warrior? Ezio has failed against far less.

1. According to history 10,000 Navarre soldiers showed up to sack the city. Most of the forces already mowed through most of the city. The fact Ezio was injured could mean anything. Falling off a building, taking several shots. So saying he was injured without deducing what caused it, is the flaw with that argument.

2. The Ottomans were still rising in power even during the 3 times they fought the Cusades, dispite being outnumbered and in several battles already. Saladin had said invincible army and outnumbered the crusades. The Knights were just that skilled in combat that they prevailed. But if that was the case, and the crusaders outnumbered the Ottomans (while not in peak of the Empire) and had many Knights Hospitalla backing them, and Ottomans prevailed, that just says how skilled the Ottoman forces were.

3. I don't think we can accurately assume what each assassin would do in the other time. If Altair was brought up in Ezio's time, we'd naturally assume that he'd grown up in the center of a broken order and Templar power and growth. In Altairs time, the assassins were more public.

You're comparing a high showing to a low showing there. Getting spotted by the Cardinal, IIRC Ezio bluntly walked out in plain site as soon as Cesare showed up. He wanted to be seen. Letting the actress get away? I already explained why. He was training his recruit. He needed a Master Assassin/Den Leader, when you train someone you dont beat them at it. Just voids the point in training.

Altair barely fought. Ezio fought all the time. Made sense to get better armor.

4. The Borgia Castel was heavily guarded, Ezio still managed his way in and out undetected. I doubt they'd leave the most powerful man in Europe stay in a castle without some form of paranoia backup force. I know how skilled a Mongol warrior is. But in a 1v1 and Altair needed someone to save his life was a low showing. Ezio 1v6 including Shahkulu. At an older age. Thats a better feat than Altair's 1v1 and Altair didn't even kill him, Qulan Gal did and dragged Altair's beat up ___ out of the camp.

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#159  Edited By Pyrogram

@StMichalofWilson said:

Connor on all rounds. He's a generation ahead of them.

You must be new here. It comes down to Ezio vs Altair for the last like 5 pages.

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#160  Edited By Pyrogram

Ezio fans, nobody has yer argued against this.

Altair led the team that killed the greatest conqueror in history. The Keshig, the personal guard of Ghenghis Khan numbered 10,000 and was a highly sought position in an army that was already composed of elite arches and warriors. The Khan was also paranoid of being poisioned and assassinated since that's how his own father died. This is the instance where Altair was spotted and injured. By contrast Ezio is spotted by a random Cardinal he's trying to trail. The comparison isn't even close. He's gravely injured multiple times each game.

@MonsterStomp: @TheMightyAvenger: @MisterGuyMan: @kickazz786:

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#161  Edited By ChaosBlazer

Ezio, but only because of my personal bias. Ezio is the coolest of them all.

To be serious, the frontier gives Connor a big advantage over the others. But when it comes to fisticuffs, Altair is probably the most skilled.

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#162  Edited By onilordasmodeus

This is crazy, and I can't be bothered to read all the back and forth about "Altair is the best".

Fact is Altair was a pioneer, but Ezio was the one.

In 1v1 combat old Ezio wins due to feats of durability, skill, and cunning. Altair is the man, and is an awesome character...

...EVEN STILL EZIO WINS.

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@Pyrogram: Altair was spotted by a random Gypsy dancer, your point?

They have both been spotted by less than impressive people it happens. Ezio managed to infiltrate the lair of the most powerful man in Europe, alone and without being detected, the Pope was also very well guarded, and Altair did not succed the infiltration, he was injured and Qulan Gal saved his life. The one who killed The Khan was Darim,

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#164  Edited By Pyrogram

@TheMightyAvenger said:

@Pyrogram: Altair was spotted by a random Gypsy dancer, your point?

They have both been spotted by less than impressive people it happens. Ezio managed to infiltrate the lair of the most powerful man in Europe, alone and without being detected, the Pope was also very well guarded, and Altair did not succed the infiltration, he was injured and Qulan Gal saved his life. The one who killed The Khan was Darim,

i COPY AND PASTED, did not write it.

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#165  Edited By HulkSlayerT1000

@BlueComet said:

Ezio

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@Pyrogram: LOL. Just noticed it.

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#167  Edited By Eternal19

I think the only reason people are saying ezio is because they like him more, not because of his actual feats. Because Altair takes this

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#168  Edited By ghostrider2

@Eternal19:i agree.

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#169  Edited By Pyrogram

@TheMightyAvenger said:

@Pyrogram: LOL. Just noticed it.

I think it is a matter of opinion, they BOTH did things remarkable. and to compare them is to compare who done better the person to invented the light or who invented the road. They both were the ultimate creation and without we would never have done so much.

With fighting, If you look on paper and how it seems Altair would win, But in reality I think Ezio may get the advantage due to weapon advantage, Even though Altair invented them. Meh. I call stalemate and connor dies a horrible death.

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@Pyrogram: True it is a matter of opinion, while Ezio did indeed fight better equipped enemies he was also better equipped than Altair was.

As far as skill is concerned, Altair seems to be better at stealth if you look at most of his missions but just as good when it comes to large scale combat, Ezio is probably better in hand to hand combat, has more experience with a larger set of weapons and has better equipment so yeah stalemate sounds about right.

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#171  Edited By MonsterStomp

What about Ezio's massive feat where he assassinated Tarik. Whats not to say he fought his way out of that camp? We know that the air assassination was canon, but how he got out wasn't specified. He could have run sure, but Altair could have run through the small army he was faced with too.

Altair spotted by one Mongol guard on a patrol route? Surely a patrol route would be the same thing every time. Any diciplined military on a specific route wouldn't switch it up. Moreover, Altair had to be helped out of the camp because he was injured from the small fight in a 1v1. I know how trained Mongols were but come on. Losing a 1v1 is a bad feat. Funny thing is, Altair was younger than Ezio when this happened and Ezio was in his prime when Revelations started.

Shahkulu historically took out high ranking Ottoman statesmen and fought Ottoman armies. His partisans deemed him invincible in combat. Yet Ezio took him out and a small Byzantine group by himself. I'm still waiting for Altair to top that. Robert de Sable can't compare. He may be a knight, but Ottoman's obliterated the Crusades in every confrontation they had, dispite being outnumbered.

Ezio does more upfront battles than Altair, period.

Most notable upfront battles for Ezio:

  • Fighting his way through the walls of Rome (Vatican). - Assassin's Creed 2
  • Fending of a suprise attack from the Papal army - Assassin's Creed Brotherhood
  • Siege of Vienna, fought through armies from both sides - Assassin's Creed Brotherhood (side note: 10,000 Navarre soldiers turned up to sack the city, historically.)
  • Although suprised to see Masyaf occupied, Ezio fights through a small Byzantine army. Eventually overwhelmed, makes a narrow escape. - Revelations
  • The Arsenal Gates: Ezio fights Ottoman soldiers and manages to save 40/60 civilians. - Revelations
  • Honor, Lost and Won: Ezio, kills Tarik and fights through Janissaries, eventually making a narrow escape. - Revelations
  • Setting Sail: Destroys the Ottoman shipyard before escaping to his own ship. - Revelations
  • Decommissioned: Fights his way through Byzantine soldiers unharmed. - Revelations
  • Last Of The Palaiologi: Fights through another batch of Byzantine foes unharmed and assassinates Manuel. - Revelations
  • Discovery: Ezio fights through Ottman forces to get to Prince Ahmet. - Revelations

If Altair has more showings, then please, I'm all ears.

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#172  Edited By Pyrogram

@TheMightyAvenger: When we think Ezio;s weapons are made by Altair, does that mean altiar has them technically? its not standard though I guess,

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#173  Edited By MonsterStomp

Ohh snap I forgot.

  1. Ezio escapes the house of Borgia with Caterina Sforza and holds off the Papal guards to cover Caterina's escape.
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@Pyrogram: Possibly, Altair did have the double hidden blades and the hidden pistol by the time he confronted Abbas. And he created the Armor although he never used it as far as I know. It's not standard but it could even things up as far as equipment is concerned, Ezio would still have bombs the hookblade and a crossbow as advantage.

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#175  Edited By Pyrogram

@TheMightyAvenger: Crossbows were invented but he did not use it and the hookblade in reality only took the place of the high jump. He had to have worn it, its called Altairs armour so I guess he wore it. Techincally the apple for altair was standard if we want to be douches, he had it for the majority of his life.

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@Pyrogram: He did not use crossbows so I don't think it counts for him, the hookblade was actually also very useful in combat and moving around, Ezio could use it to pull his enemies around IIRC, and the Apple would be a little unfair lol.

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#177  Edited By Pyrogram

@TheMightyAvenger: In the trailer he did, but that does not count :P I tested the hookblade and it just replaces the metal glove you get in brohood. Exactly the same apart from combat aspects. and yer, the apple technically is his standard gear is unfair.

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#178  Edited By CapFanboy

@Qpzmg said:

First round with all their weapons but each one gets 1 gun only. Second round they all have their hidden blade and Altair and Ezio have a sword and Connor has tomahawk. Third round h2h only no weapons. Ezio from the brotherhood or Revelations. To death. Takes place in the frontier. Provide reason.

1) Ezio - providing it's brotherhood. Familiarity with weapons and his gun doesn't take forever to reload.

Second - Altair. Dude was a master assassin at the age of 24 when the place was filled with them.

Third round - Both Ezio and Altair are very skilled here, maybe Altair gets the up because of his advanced training with other trainees whereas Ezio learned most of his moves from his uncle. Even though both are skilled, Connor is much stronger. Could go any way with round three. If it's to death then Altair or Ezio eventually win I think due to lethal counters.

Though it is fairly even, the frontier gives Connor the advantage, if he can pull it to his favour then he potentially takes all three, other than that Altair is my choice for most wins since he's faster and just as skilled whereas the older Ezio will have more problems.

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#179  Edited By MonsterStomp

@Pyrogram: Altair didn't use the Apple much at the prime of his life though. So would he have been as skilled as he was in his 80's - 90's? I'll doubt that for the sheer lack of evidence. Unless you'd want old man Altair in the fight? Even still, Ezio has resisted mental attacks from Rodrigo's staff. Altair's physical attacks with the Apple will be troublesome. Though Ezio has disarmed someone with the Apple by throwing a knife at it from a distance over a crowd before.

Oh and the hookblade does give Ezio extended reach like the glove but is also used for that "combo climb" thing that he does.

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#180  Edited By Pyrogram

@MonsterStomp: I know he didn't use it, or no evidence even though he probably did. Old man Altair Stomps this fight hard though, but that is way unfair on Ezio and connor. Either way, its a stalemate or Ezio wins due to technology.

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#181  Edited By Project_Worm

I would probably give it to Altair in all three rounds.... Provided he learns how to use the gun properly before he gets killed... There would also be a small margin for Connor to take a win at the frontier... I dunno, One win for each maybe?

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#182  Edited By MonsterStomp

@Pyrogram: The thing is. Ezio has more high showings than Altair, but he also has more low showings.

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#183  Edited By MisterGuyMan

@TheMightyAvenger said:

@MisterGuyMan:

1- Yes he had all his weapons, he won (or was winning) the actual fight he lost because of the staff, the apple does have better powers, Ezio simply didn't know how to use them, for exemple if Ezio could use the apple as he could when he had it in the end of Brotherhhod he would have won.

2- You sure? I could swear there were a group crossbowman in during the fight. Guess I was wrong then.

3- Oh yeah now I remember, thanks.

4- The Khan may have been more well guarded, but Altair, Qulan and Darim failed the infiltration they succeded when Khan tried to escape and was shot down by Qulan and Darim. The Pope was heavilly guarded and Ezio infiltrated alone, him not killing Rodrigo with a shot from the hidden gun or an air assassination is weird, no one without heavy armor can survive either, which is why I believe he only tackled Rodrigo.

1. Again Rodrigo was on his feet and still willing to fight. Ezio sasys something like "You can't win" or something like that but just saying that doesn't mean anything. If you go by the cutscene then Rodrigo cut down multiple copies of Ezio and was down to fighting the real one. There's no way you can argue that Ezio was winning or won even in the slightest and

There's honestly no reason to make excuses for Ezio anyway because even with the excuses Ezio's showing against Rodrigo still falls far short of Altair's showing against Mualim. That's the entire point. Compared to Altair who had less, Ezio failed and Altair won. It's a great apples to apples comparison that shows that Altair was superior.

2. There may have been archers but Altair faced archers too. This line of arguments was only intended to show the limits of using the "Ezio lived in a more dangerous era" argument. Even in appales to apples comparisons without gunpowder or platemail, Altair's feats are better and more consistent.

4. Is it possible to initiate the Rodrigo fight scene with just tackling him? Because I've only done it with the hidden gun and via air assassination. If not then the air assassination option is the only canon explanation.

In response to your recent post:

The novellas are the second to lowest level of canon so that's why I don't recognize Altair's mission details against the Khan. The novellas are useful but not when they contradict the games. Firstly the novel characters are far more realistic than the game versions. Even Ezio's novel versions have worse feats that the game Ezio. In the novels Altair is stated to be in decline against the Mongols but in good condition when he meets the Polos. In the game the exact opposite is true. Considering how the novel states that Altair is spotted only because his age made his skills deteriorate, a fact contradicted by the videogame, I choose to rely on the videogames.

Keep in mind that the AC mythology repeatedly emphasizes how unreliable history books are which is why animus memories are always considered more reliable. The animus doesn't lie. Conversely the Secret Crusade is a third hand account by the Polos of an event happening decades prior. One account says Altair was already in decline. The animus disagress.

You also referenced Ezio's undetected infiltration of the Papal estate. Ezio had the help of all his Assassin recruits to get in. I know because I abused those Assassins to 100% in all the games. Even beyond that Ezio can just shoot guards without alrting anyone else so the feat, while impressive isn't as good as it would be without all those tools.

Finally even if you believe that Ezio is more skilled with his full array of tools, Altair, with all his tools, will still stomp Ezio due to the Apple. Old Man Altair would have the armor, knowledge of bombs and the ability to rain down phantom assassins at will. He'd also know all of Ezio's tricks since by then he'd have written all the codex pages.

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#184  Edited By MisterGuyMan

@MonsterStomp said:

@MisterGuyMan said:

1. Accepted. Golden Age for the Templars began in Altair's time. What happened from there? Why had the assassin's gone into hidding? Its clear that their Age lasted for a while. Who stopped this rise? Ezio, if no other.

Doesn't necessarily mean nothing. And even if we did have a complete list of every member of the Templar Order I'm confident that Ezio will still come out on top with numbers. Kickazz786 had the idea that the most skilled assassin is one who kills with speed and efficiency. I proved him/her wrong when Ezio killed more in a shorter time.

2. If you're refering to the feat where the Cardinal's were meeting up in the Colesseum and the Cardinal spotted Ezio. Out of everything you pick that as a fail? Ezio has way more tail feats to top that. Like tailing when he had to tail the sentator without touching the ground.

Injured in the Siege of Vianna. Over 10,000 Navarre soldiers were sent there to take the city (according to history). Ezio was faced with gunmen and crossbowmen from both sides of the battle. Whats to say he wasn't shot?

Thespian Pt 1. Ezio was simply training his apprentices. It was very important that he let the apprentices do everything as they would rise to the Master title. Ezio didn't try and kill the actress. If he wanted her dead she'd be dead, seen when she slipped up again.

The fight at Arsuf was a low showing. The Crusades didn't rein for long like the Byzantine Empire. Yet Ezio infiltrated the base of opperations fought multiple soldiers unharmed, killed Shahkulu (who in turn would trump Robert de Sable in a fight) and stopped the rise of another Byzantine Dynasty with the assassination of Manuel Palaiologos. Single handidly after a days work.

Altair didn't kill Khan. He orchestrated the assassination, somewhat like Ezio orchestrated the assassination of the entire Borgia family.

How do we know that the Crusades were tougher than anything Ezio fought? The Ottomans and Byzantines peaked at around Ezio's time.

1. The Assassins ceased to function as a highly centralized Order because Altair understood how Masayuf served as a symbol ot arrogance for the Assassins' enemies.

Even if you think Ezio's full list would be longer than Altair, we can't know. Moreover both lists have a lot of filler targets that aren't impressive at all.

2. I'm referring to the last Romulos memory. he was just tailing the Cardinal and was just spotted.

Replay the Cesare Assassination memory. You're knocked out by artillery. THEN the memory starts with the sync requirement to not lose 3 health. AFTER the memory starts you don't have a chance to encounter gunfire unless you get spotted but I honestly don't remember gunfire in that memory at all. In history there might have been gunfire as an issue but the animus tells us that gunfire wasn't an issue for Ezio.

Anyway my phone's battery is dying so I'll answer the other points later.

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TheMightyAvenger

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@MisterGuyMan:

1- Yes he could still fight, but what I meant was that Rodrigo only really won because of the powers of the staff, before he knocked Ezio down for the second time he was aparently losing that's what I meant.

2- Okay, I was just saying his injuries could have been outside of melee combat.

4- No, what I'm saying is that in no other instance has anyone survived an air assassination, or a hidden gun shot without heavy armor (as is the case with Shahkulu), whichis why I believe that he either tackled Rodrigo or that Rodrigo was wearing something that protected him.

5- I see your point with the novels, however it's the only record we have detailing the Khan's assassination.

6- I don't remember him using the aprentices in AC2, when did he use them?

7- Of course if Altair had the Apple he would stomp the fight, I'm saying all their equipment without Pieces of Eden included.

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MonsterStomp

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#186  Edited By MonsterStomp

@MisterGuyMan: I was actually referring to Cesare. He whipped out a gun during that fight. There were actually a few gunmen patrolling the area. The first half you could do quietly but as soon as you hit the city steps people are after you. Ezio could have taken to the roofs to avoid the frontal assaults, there were gunmen and crossbowmen on the roofs.

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MisterGuyMan

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#187  Edited By MisterGuyMan

I went back and counted how many people Altair has to face in combat at Arsuf. You first fight 3 archers, then a group of 9 soldiers, another group of 14 soldiers, a group of 3 then finally a group of 25 soldiers. Then you fight 14 Templar and finish the assassination by fighting 9 Templar and Robert. So at Arsuf Altair fights through 77 people in total without getting hit once. The biggest group of enemies is 25.

Now let's compare that with Ezio. There are 10 memories between Brotherhood and Revelations where the Animus specifies how much damage Ezio recieved. In two of them ('Gatekeeper' and 'Trojan Horse'), Ezio takes no damage but is aided by an allied army. In two of them ('Apple of Eden' and 'Last of the Palaiogi') Ezio does not take damage but all he has to do is run away. The remaining six memories Ezio is either solo or has one or two allies. Of those six Ezio is undamaged in ONLY two of them. In 'Forum of the Ox' Ezio doesn't take damage but only fights four enemies. The memory 'Decomissioned' is his best feat where he fights 18 enemies but only has to fight at most six at a time. What's more is that in the following memory bombs are disabled meaning that Ezio used them up already. You can easily kill everyone with a handful of bombs in this memory without ever getting into a real fight situation. Those are the ONLY two memories where Ezio has to fight solo and is shown to leave the fight unharmed. At no time does he fight more than what Altair fought either in total or in a single group. Unharmed Ezio has fought 18 total enemies whereas Altair has beaten 77 by my count. In a single fight Ezio has beaten 6 enemies unharmed whereas Altair has beaten 25.

There are still four of Ezio's memories we can look at and it's these that should cement Altair's superiority. Here they are:

1. Feme Fatale - Ezio loses 10 health against a measly 12 guards (4 at a time)

2. Man of the People - Ezio loses 5 health against 8 basic level guards (4 at a time)

3. Patching the Leak - Even with the help of la Volpe and some Thieves, Ezio takes 5 damage against an average group of enemies.

4. Pax Romana - This is the Siege of Vianna. The only enemies you have to kill are at the end and only a handful at a time. Arguably his best feat but the actual number of people Ezio kills provably isn't close to what Altair killed.

So there you have it. When Ezio is alone he's actually MORE likely to take damage than to remain unscathed. Ezio taking damage is actually his normal expected outcome in provable solo fights against multiple enemies. If he can run away or has an army he can reliably avoid damage but if he's alone he's likely to take damage. In 'Man of the People' even a group of the most basic (lowest level) Borgia is enough to hurt him. This memory is even worse when you consider that 8 guards can deal 5 damage to Ezio. Let's put that into perspective. Ezio without any armor ONLY has 5 health. So what does that mean? If Ezio were only wearing what Altair normally wears he would have died against 8 basic guards. This is against four BASIC everyday city Borgia guards. Not even the fast speedy types or the armored ones. These are tha pansy beret wearing peon guards.

Without Altair's armor, he would have died against Rodrigo. Without even basic armor, he would have died to 8 normal peons fighting them four at a time and with the element of surprise. In the Maria decoy assassination attempt alone, Altair fights 8 higher quality Templars and 2 archers AT THE SAME TIME without taking damage and this is an average or below average feat for Altair.

As I keep pointing out, Altair keeps doing more with far less. I'll recheck these numbers if anyone doubts since I might have miscounted but even with some margin for error in how many enemies are involved specifically in the Arsuf battle and the memory "Decomissioned", the difference is still too large for that to matter.

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onilordasmodeus

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#188  Edited By onilordasmodeus

@MisterGuyMan:

I've been meaning to ask, where is this idea tha Altair took no damage at Arsuf coming from?

ACB was the first AC game to introduce the 100% sync concept, before then, at least in the case of AC1, sync was basically just a part of the health bar and a way to tie the use of EV into the gameplay. Story sync was never a part of AC1.

Trying to argue that Altair took no damage at Arsuf is like trying to argue that Altair took no damage through the entirety of the AC1 campaign. Story wise, the only time Altair was physically hurt (IIRC) was when Al Mualim stabbed him near the beginning, and at that point I don't think Desmond had any issues staying synced with the Animus. Lucy and Vidic decided to pull him out.

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MonsterStomp

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#189  Edited By MonsterStomp

@MisterGuyMan said:

I went back and counted how many people Altair has to face in combat at Arsuf. You first fight 3 archers, then a group of 9 soldiers, another group of 14 soldiers, a group of 3 then finally a group of 25 soldiers. Then you fight 14 Templar and finish the assassination by fighting 9 Templar and Robert. So at Arsuf Altair fights through 77 people in total without getting hit once. The biggest group of enemies is 25.

Now let's compare that with Ezio. There are 10 memories between Brotherhood and Revelations where the Animus specifies how much damage Ezio recieved. In two of them ('Gatekeeper' and 'Trojan Horse'), Ezio takes no damage but is aided by an allied army. In two of them ('Apple of Eden' and 'Last of the Palaiogi') Ezio does not take damage but all he has to do is run away. The remaining six memories Ezio is either solo or has one or two allies. Of those six Ezio is undamaged in ONLY two of them. In 'Forum of the Ox' Ezio doesn't take damage but only fights four enemies. The memory 'Decomissioned' is his best feat where he fights 18 enemies but only has to fight at most six at a time. What's more is that in the following memory bombs are disabled meaning that Ezio used them up already. You can easily kill everyone with a handful of bombs in this memory without ever getting into a real fight situation. Those are the ONLY two memories where Ezio has to fight solo and is shown to leave the fight unharmed. At no time does he fight more than what Altair fought either in total or in a single group. Unharmed Ezio has fought 18 total enemies whereas Altair has beaten 77 by my count. In a single fight Ezio has beaten 6 enemies unharmed whereas Altair has beaten 25.

There are still four of Ezio's memories we can look at and it's these that should cement Altair's superiority. Here they are:

1. Feme Fatale - Ezio loses 10 health against a measly 12 guards (4 at a time)

2. Man of the People - Ezio loses 5 health against 8 basic level guards (4 at a time)

3. Patching the Leak - Even with the help of la Volpe and some Thieves, Ezio takes 5 damage against an average group of enemies.

4. Pax Romana - This is the Siege of Vianna. The only enemies you have to kill are at the end and only a handful at a time. Arguably his best feat but the actual number of people Ezio kills provably isn't close to what Altair killed.

So there you have it. When Ezio is alone he's actually MORE likely to take damage than to remain unscathed. Ezio taking damage is actually his normal expected outcome in provable solo fights against multiple enemies. If he can run away or has an army he can reliably avoid damage but if he's alone he's likely to take damage. In 'Man of the People' even a group of the most basic (lowest level) Borgia is enough to hurt him. This memory is even worse when you consider that 8 guards can deal 5 damage to Ezio. Let's put that into perspective. Ezio without any armor ONLY has 5 health. So what does that mean? If Ezio were only wearing what Altair normally wears he would have died against 8 basic guards. This is against four BASIC everyday city Borgia guards. Not even the fast speedy types or the armored ones. These are tha pansy beret wearing peon guards.

Without Altair's armor, he would have died against Rodrigo. Without even basic armor, he would have died to 8 normal peons fighting them four at a time and with the element of surprise. In the Maria decoy assassination attempt alone, Altair fights 8 higher quality Templars and 2 archers AT THE SAME TIME without taking damage and this is an average or below average feat for Altair.

As I keep pointing out, Altair keeps doing more with far less. I'll recheck these numbers if anyone doubts since I might have miscounted but even with some margin for error in how many enemies are involved specifically in the Arsuf battle and the memory "Decomissioned", the difference is still too large for that to matter.

  • Fighting his way through the walls of Rome (Vatican). - Assassin's Creed 2
  • Fending of a suprise attack from the Papal army - Assassin's Creed Brotherhood
  • Siege of Vienna, fought through armies from both sides - Assassin's Creed Brotherhood (side note: 10,000 Navarre soldiers turned up to sack the city, historically.)
  • Although suprised to see Masyaf occupied, Ezio fights through a small Byzantine army. Eventually overwhelmed, makes a narrow escape. - Revelations
  • The Arsenal Gates: Ezio fights Ottoman soldiers and manages to save 40/60 civilians. - Revelations
  • Honor, Lost and Won: Ezio, kills Tarik and fights through Janissaries, eventually making a narrow escape. - Revelations
  • Setting Sail: Destroys the Ottoman shipyard before escaping to his own ship. - Revelations
  • Decommissioned: Fights his way through Byzantine soldiers unharmed. - Revelations
  • Last Of The Palaiologi: Fights through another batch of Byzantine foes unharmed and assassinates Manuel. - Revelations
  • Discovery: Ezio fights through Ottman forces to get to Prince Ahmet. - Revelations
  • I've already proven that Ottoman's are superior fighters to Saracen and Christian troops. In the Battle of Arsuf, Altair fought foes of low ranking. His highest showing is smacking a bunch Templar Knights around. Ezio fought his way out of a Janissary camp. Janissaries >> Templar Knights.

    If you want to pull that "he could have ran away" argument, it's flawed. What's to say Altair didn't run through the small army of Saracen's?

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    MisterGuyMan

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    #190  Edited By MisterGuyMan

    @onilordasmodeus said:

    @MisterGuyMan:

    I've been meaning to ask, where is this idea tha Altair took no damage at Arsuf coming from?

    ACB was the first AC game to introduce the 100% sync concept, before then, at least in the case of AC1, sync was basically just a part of the health bar and a way to tie the use of EV into the gameplay. Story sync was never a part of AC1.

    Trying to argue that Altair took no damage at Arsuf is like trying to argue that Altair took no damage through the entirety of the AC1 campaign. Story wise, the only time Altair was physically hurt (IIRC) was when Al Mualim stabbed him near the beginning, and at that point I don't think Desmond had any issues staying synced with the Animus. Lucy and Vidic decided to pull him out.

    Sync is BOTH a gameplay mechanic and a story mechanic. Gameplay and story are not mutually exclusive. The game's story itself defines what sync is. It is NOT just a health bar. You can be gravely injured and maintain good sync. Conversely any time you kill a civilian and lose sync, you definitely are not losing health. So no sync isn't a health bar at all.

    Basically anytime you do something that your ancestor didn't do, you lose sync so anytime Altair is hurt and loses sync, that's your fault not his. This concept is confirmed again in Revelations where anytime you play as Altair, you use a sync bar and not a health bar. Even in Revelations which uses the Animus 2.03 the animus makes it clear that when you take damage reliving Altair's memories, he doesn't lose health, YOU lose sync.

    @MonsterStomp said:

  • Fighting his way through the walls of Rome (Vatican). - Assassin's Creed 2
  • Fending of a suprise attack from the Papal army - Assassin's Creed Brotherhood
  • Siege of Vienna, fought through armies from both sides - Assassin's Creed Brotherhood (side note: 10,000 Navarre soldiers turned up to sack the city, historically.)
  • Although suprised to see Masyaf occupied, Ezio fights through a small Byzantine army. Eventually overwhelmed, makes a narrow escape. - Revelations
  • The Arsenal Gates: Ezio fights Ottoman soldiers and manages to save 40/60 civilians. - Revelations
  • Honor, Lost and Won: Ezio, kills Tarik and fights through Janissaries, eventually making a narrow escape. - Revelations
  • Setting Sail: Destroys the Ottoman shipyard before escaping to his own ship. - Revelations
  • Decommissioned: Fights his way through Byzantine soldiers unharmed. - Revelations
  • Last Of The Palaiologi: Fights through another batch of Byzantine foes unharmed and assassinates Manuel. - Revelations
  • Discovery: Ezio fights through Ottman forces to get to Prince Ahmet. - Revelations
  • I've already proven that Ottoman's are superior fighters to Saracen and Christian troops. In the Battle of Arsuf, Altair fought foes of low ranking. His highest showing is smacking a bunch Templar Knights around. Ezio fought his way out of a Janissary camp. Janissaries >> Templar Knights.

    If you want to pull that "he could have ran away" argument, it's flawed. What's to say Altair didn't run through the small army of Saracen's?

    With the exception of the memories I already mentioned, no other memories indicate how much damage Ezio recieved. Some of those memories you mentioned actually aren't good showings. In Masayuf Ezio is actually taken prisoner. After the surprise attack by Rome, Ezio is left half dead and unconscious.

    You're also now ignoring how basic how fighting 8 peons, four at a time, is apparently enough to kill Ezio without his armor. Of the six times he's provably fought multiple enemies alone and the animus tells us how much damage he's taken, Ezio takes damage 66% of the time. No matter how much you try to ignore those facts, Ezio apparently is prone to getting damaged when he's alone against multiple people even if those people are low level grunts like in 'Man of the People'

    You want to keep mentioning Jannissaries but we can't have an apples to apples comparison since we have no idea how much damage Ezio took. We don't know how many recruits he might have used. The memory you mentioned has Ezio sneaking into their camp then fleeing. That's all we know. By contrast by looking at all the memries where the animus states how much Ezio has taken damage, Altair is clearly superior because Ezio usually gets damaged and he gets damaged even against low level peons. Moreover the Battle of Arsuf progresses with a checkpoint system. You can't progress without killing everyone. I tried running through some battles when I played through and the next area was blocked off. You can check this for all the Arsuf fights if you want. Regardless, Altair kills 10 Templar at the end at the same time including Robert. Ezio would have died to 8 peons fighting 4 at a time if it weren't for his armor.

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    onilordasmodeus

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    #191  Edited By onilordasmodeus

    @MisterGuyMan:

    Sorry, but you are wrong.

    In AC1, sync and health were the same. When Altair/Desmod got hit, health was lost, and sync was lost. All that was required to be at 100% sync at any given time was to not loose health. When at full health (100% sync), eagale vision could be used. Later games separated the use of EV from the health/sync bar.

    Like I said before, ACB was the first game in the series that established an element of sync as it related to missions and how they were carried out. From ACB onward, heath and a story continuity sync percentage were mutually exclusvie; health was a measure of how in-sync (how stable) your connection with the animus was, and sync percentage was how closely Desmond was in sync with his ancestors canonical actions.

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    MisterGuyMan

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    #192  Edited By MisterGuyMan

    @onilordasmodeus:

    No, you're wrong. Kill civilians and you lose sync and NOT health. When you go outside a map's boundaries, you lose sync and NOT health. When Robert throws Altair throw rubble he loses health but NOT sync. Same when Mualim stabs him. When you're close to desyncing and you do nothing you automatically regain more sync. Altair doesn't have a healing factor that regenerates wounds. That's the animus regenerating sync. Basically your assertion that sync is health contradicts what the game tells us and how we are told the animus works. You can't just ignore that.

    You're also ignoring how the animus 2.03 reduces sync whenever Altair is hit in Revelations. Sync, like it or not, was never synomonous to health in AC and this was reinforced whenever you play as Altair in revelations.

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    MonsterStomp

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    #193  Edited By MonsterStomp

    @MisterGuyMan: Ezio gets hurt while fighting 8 peons at 4 at a time. Yet he takes 4 Papal soldiers without taking damage. His feats arn't consistant. From what I can take from it, Ezio's confrontations with Janissaries at any time are better than any enemies Altair has faced, including Templar Knights.

    You say the Janissary camp feat is flawed because we don't know how many recruits or bombs or w/e Ezio has used to successfully escape right? Same goes for taking damage when falling off buildings or taking gunshots or crossbow bolts. Random damage is also a factor to consider.

    Altair wasn't living in a life filled with bombmen, gunmen and crossbowmen.

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    onilordasmodeus

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    #194  Edited By onilordasmodeus

    @onilordasmodeus:

    I think you are trying to change the facts.

    The first guy Altair kills is a civilian. He looses 5 bars of health.

    Let me put it another way...he looses 5 bars of sync.

    Check out what happens when Altair get hit...he looses 1 bar of health.

    Let me put it another way...he looses 1 bar of sync

    In ac1 they are 1 in the same.

    Skip to 1:30 in the vid; see how the heath bar gets that swirling aura around it, that means you are at full health - 100% sync.

    Maybe you think I'm talking about desyncing? Well, I'm not. 100% Sync, as it pertains to AC1, determines if you can use eagle vision, and if you hit zero percent sync (health) you de-sync. The only story context sync had was whether or not Desmond could access a specific memory or not. Nothing more.

    Also...

    @MisterGuyMan said:

    You're also ignoring how the animus 2.03 reduces sync whenever Altair is hit in Revelations. Sync, like it or not, was never synomonous to health in AC and this was reinforced whenever you play as Altair in revelations.

    Altair looses health (sync) just like Ezio does when he get hit in Revelations.

    See the bar at the top left? It is both your sync bar and your health bar. See how if Altair gets hit that one bar may partially be reduced, and how it refills on its own? That is how Ezio's health/armor/sync bar workedin the AC2 series of games. The only canonical sync constraint in this mission is that Altair saved all the citizens in danger in this memory (see 1:20 in the vid). If you don't do that then you only get 50% sync for the mision meaning you are not in sync with what Altair did. Nothing is stated about if he took damage, or how many Templars he killed, so none of that matters when talking about 100% sync.

    For the record, I just got done playing Revelations 100% sync all the way through (yeah me!), and since I've just posted vids of both AC1 and ACR I hope you can see what I'm saying.

    Canonical story sync and health bar sync are 2 different things; de-sync-ing is something else as well but is related to the sync bar (the health bar).

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    MisterGuyMan

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    #195  Edited By MisterGuyMan

    @onilordasmodeus:

    I can't be any more clear about this. You're wrong. According to you any time Altair kills a civilian he actually gets physically damaged. That honestly makes no sense. You don't even have to trust me. Take the animus' explantion itself. Here's a direct quote from the Animus Training Program:

    The Syncronization bar represents how in sync you are with your ancestor's memories.

    That's straight from the original Assassin's Creed Animus itself. There's absolutely no evidence that the sync bar is a simple health bar and the game itself tells us what it is and never equates the Sync bar to a health bar. Your explanation simply makes no sense. The animus recreates your ancestor's memories. When you deviate from what actually happened you lose sync. That's what the game tells us. Under your logic any time Altair kills a civilian, for whatever reason, he also critically injures himself. There's absolutely no explanation why this should be. You're not damaged if you kill a civilian. Altair is not damaged either. Desmond is simply failing to maintain sync with Altair's memories. Again that's not my explanation. That's what the animus says itself.

    You're also ignoring how the Animus 2.03 in Revelations differentiates between sync and health explicitly. Yet Altair is never shown to lose health. You can only lose sync. Again don't take my word for it. I'll list them for you. Or recall the memory where Robert throws Altair through a wall or Mualim stabs Altair. Why do you NOT lose any sync when Altair was obviously hurt in the memory? The answer is that health is NOT the same as sync. You can lose sync without getting hurt. Conversely Altair has gotten hurt without losing sync. You haven't addressed this point at all.

    Here's the 100% sync requirement for the memory 'Mentor's Wake' one of the Altair memories:

    "Do not lose more than 3 Synchronization Points"

    Now here's one of the requirements for an Ezio memory:

    "Do not drop below 5 health squares"

    So as of Revelations, any time you get hurt as Altair the animus says it's YOUR fault because YOU are losing sync. Conversely the animus clearly states that in some memories, it's Ezio's fault when he got hurt. You can't explain that away. Any time you get hurt as Altair you lose syncronization even though the animus clearly makes a difference between your health bar and your sync rate at this point.

    @MonsterStomp said:

    @MisterGuyMan: Ezio gets hurt while fighting 8 peons at 4 at a time. Yet he takes 4 Papal soldiers without taking damage. His feats arn't consistant. From what I can take from it, Ezio's confrontations with Janissaries at any time are better than any enemies Altair has faced, including Templar Knights.

    You say the Janissary camp feat is flawed because we don't know how many recruits or bombs or w/e Ezio has used to successfully escape right? Same goes for taking damage when falling off buildings or taking gunshots or crossbow bolts. Random damage is also a factor to consider.

    Altair wasn't living in a life filled with bombmen, gunmen and crossbowmen.

    What memory does he fight 4 Papal soldiers without taking damage? I already outlined all the memories where Ezio provably fought multiple enemies alone. He takes damage 66% of the time. By the numbers Ezio consistently takes damage. If Ezio isn't consistent and Altair is then that just proves that Altair is better.

    Moreover the memories where Ezio gets damaged do not have bombmen. Altair himself has faced crossbowmen. Also historically the guns of Ezio's time were inconsistent and reloaded slowly so you are overstating their potency. In many ways bows and crossbows were more dangerous. In the memory 'Man of the People' for example there are no bombmen, riflemen or crossbowmen. Likewise in 'Patching a Leak' there's no excuse.

    Finally why are you u making excuses for Ezio with random damage? That applies to Altair too and he can deal with it. Those memories I listed prove that Ezio has fared worse than Altair in similar situations. You can't just ignore that.

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    Nightwing4

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    #196  Edited By Nightwing4

    MisterGuyMan is correct. /arguement

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    MonsterStomp

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    #197  Edited By MonsterStomp

    @MisterGuyMan:

    Graduation, was the mission where Ezio took out 4 Papal soldiers while remaining unharmed.

    Altair has less showings then Ezio in upfront battles. You're comparing low showings to high showings.

    Altair took on 77 Crusaders. Ezio has taken damage from 8 guard level foes. Oblivious to the fact that Ezio has better showings to boot. I've proven that the Crusaders (apart from the Knights) were of low ranking.

    Ezio has killed Shahkulu, a man with the respective title of "Invincible", deemed by his partisans. That fight alone has more to show then Altair's fight with Robert de Sable.

    Ezio has fought through Ottoman forces in Discovery. In that mission there are infinite amounts of arrow storms. If we were talking about how strong allies were I wouldn't use that as a showing. Gameplay mechanics did that to show the bloodlust in the brotherhood. There weren't really infinite assassin's ready to fight. Ezio may have had help, but how much help wasn't specified. I can conclude that Ezio fought through the forces based on the 100% synch req.

    Ezio took out a few Janissaries during Honor, Lost and Won. The search radius was too big for Ezio to not have killed any Janissaries. Janissaries were much quicker than Ezio. And the fact that they became aggressive on site of Ezio, makes me wonder if Ezio fought through them multiple times at once.

    Ezio fended off a Papal army. He wasn't in armor then, he didn't die after he was faced with about 10(?) mid level Papal soldiers.

    ___________________________________________________________________________

    On another note.

    With the Animus 2.0

    "Synchronization could be increased by completing side memories, recovering objects (such as Codex pages, feathers or statuettes), and through unlocking the Armor of Altair."

    This is about increasing Ezio's synchronization in Assassin's Creed 2, by doing things Ezio ultimately did. Buying armor would increase or drop synchronization based on what Ezio did. Keep in mind this is SYNCHRONIZATION we're talking about. Leading me to think that Ezio was untouchable in Assassin's Creed 2.

    In contrast, Altair increased synch by increasing his status and following the Creed. If Altair killed a civilian, he'd lose synch bars. If Ezio killed a civilian he would desynchronize. The warning factors are there because its possible to accidently kill someone.

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    onilordasmodeus

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    #198  Edited By onilordasmodeus

    @MonsterStomp:

    That Shakulu encounter was pretty dope, and yes, it was a very good showing.

    @MisterGuyMan:

    I apoplogize...I seem to not be explaining my self correctly so I'll lay it out as best I can.

    You are getting hung up on my "health bar" referrence, while the central point that I am trying to convey is that being 100% in sync with Altair in AC1, is not the same as being 100% in sync with Ezio or Altair in later games. When I use the term health, I talking about the game mechanic; health, as it pertains to canonical Altair or Ezio, is irrelevant since no matter what, those characters only meet their end or get injured at the appointed times in their lives. Desmond (the player) cannot determine when they die or get injured as that is governed by the memory itself, not by player.

    Being 100% in sync with Ezio or Altair means you are completing objectives pretty much exactly the way they did. While there may still be multiple ways in the simulation to achieve the ultimate goal of 100% sync in each memory, the fact remains that there were precise things that happened in those missions, and only those things can be counted canon events that occurred.

    - Ex. ACR - Ezio was never discovered while infiltrating the Janissary barracks (mission constraint), and he killed Tarik with an air assassination (100% sync requirement).

    In AC1, Desmond (the player) had no "optional" mission requirements to achieve in order to get a 100% rating, only a minimum requirement on tasks that needed to be completed; that doesn't equal 100% sync to the canonical story.

    While through the memory blocks we can see how many people Altair actually pickpocketed in his quest to take down the 9 Templars, and how many people he interogated, and how many people he evesdropped on. We don't know if he was discovered on his missions, or how many times he had to defend himself in open combat on said mission, or any other details as to how he achieved his goals. The majority of that is determined by the choice that Desmond (the player) makes.

    The only thing we know is that there is a minimum and maximum number of tasks allowed in order to keep Desmond synced with Altair's memories in the Animus so he can progress. The min/max of the overall story percentage (story sync) leads us to an overview of the actual events, only telling us that they took place. The sync bar in game can be at 100% all day long and the overall percentage done of the game can still be at it's minimum. Is that still 100% sync?

    Are seeing it yet?

    Synced with Atair in the Animus is NOT the same thing as synced with Altair's memory of how things went down.

    Remember, the Animus 1.28, while it is still an advanced piece of tech, was not on par with later versions of the machine as later versions allowed for more detail of the rendering, more granular detail of the how missions were achieved, and a just overall better experience in the machine. If anything, what we can take away from this is that later versions of the Animus made it was easier for Desmond to stay synced to the memories, while giving a better representation of what actually transpired, all due to the advancements in the tech, and it's ability to descern the specifics of each memory better.

    @MisterGuyMan said:

    "The animus recreates your ancestor's memories. When you deviate from what actually happened you lose sync."

    While true, the other side of that is that when you don't complete an objective the way the ancestor completed said objective, you do not loose sync, you just don't achieve a 100% sync percentage...which aligns with the story.

    The Animus, none of them, render everything exaclty as it happened; if they did we'd be watching a movie. They allow for loose aproximations where the person in the drivers seat can do their best to achieve perfect sync with the memories as they are. AC1 was the most atiquated of all the versions, and thus, only the cutscenes and the dialogue, the only exact recreation of the ancestor's memory of the ancestor, can be seen as canonical. Conversely, the full desync events such as "dieing" or leaving a memories area, can be seen as non-canon events as they completely didn't happen.

    Lastly...

    @MisterGuyMan said:

    "Why do you NOT lose any sync when Altair was obviously hurt in the memory? The answer is that health is NOT the same as sync. You can lose sync without getting hurt. Conversely Altair has gotten hurt without losing sync. You haven't addressed this point at all."

    The sync (health) bar in AC1 served the exact same purpose as the sync (health) bar in the AC2 series. Yes, Desmond (the player) could used medicine to refill the sync (health) bar in the AC2 series, but overall that can be seen as a game mechanic as there are only a few spots canonically were Ezio used meds. Sync, in all the games, can be seen as a measure of stress, or mental stability, as when Desmond gets hit, or wanders outside of a specified zone, the result is sync depletion and/or a screen flicker and desync.

    The optional objectives in game, such as "don't loose 5 squares of health", doesn't mean that Ezio or whoever got injured and may or may not have had to use meds, it essentially means it was an intense and traumatic moment, thus making it easier to destablize that memory, i.e. fall out of sync. A good AC1 comparision is the final battle of AC1, Al vs Al.

    IIRC, during certain parts of that fight when the screen was going haywire (reflecting the mental instability Altair was experiencing at the time), Desmond would desync if he got hit once. We know this isn't a funtion of Altair dieing, so it can only be Desmond just not being able to repeat his ancestor's feat. To reiterate what I said at the beginning of this post, the fight that happens isn't an exact recreation of the actual fight that took place; only certain parts of it can be concidered canonical as Desmond had to play his part to stay in sync.

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    MonsterStomp

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    #199  Edited By MonsterStomp

    I think Connor has the most canonly accurate showings in reguards to 100% synch.

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    Qpzmg

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    #200  Edited By Qpzmg

    BUMP