@MonsterStomp said:
@kickazz786 said:
1. It's not speculation if its backed with calculations. 10 Templars in 3 months is a faster kill rate than 19 Templars in 22 years. It's simple arithmetic.
2. Nothing you have said has proved me wrong. You've gotten proved wrong by almost everyone whose been debating you here. The face rubbing is needed since you're practically insulting a part of a game without any real knowledge of it and honestly you can't expect to make false claims in the real world and expect to get away with it. You have to understand some people are hard core gamers and like to stick to facts about the games. I've been playing devils advocate with you. Yes I tease you with Ezio but as I've stated before; Ezio is my favorite playable character, I relate more with him when I played the games. Altair to me is a boring guy, but that doesn't mean Ezio is better than him. He's just more fun to play with that's all. Take this debate as a learning experience, it's not supposed to offend you. If your going to have strong opinions against something, you have to provide concrete evidence. It's one thing to be humble in your approach in a debate, but if your going to down right act as if Altair is a piece of junk, your going to need to back it up. And so far, you haven't done a good job of it.
A. Wrong. Read books on Crusaders and Saladin's army. Templars were very strong and skilled during the 1100s.
B. Nope. Speculation on your part that's all. Killing more men even in the real world doesn't mean the opposition had more power. For instance, a nation may kill more men and generals in a war against another nation but that doesn't necessarily mean that opposing nation is more powerful, it simply means there's more of them. For instance, the U.S had far less military than Iraq in the Gulf War during 1990-1991, but whooped Iraq's butt.
2. continued.
A. Doesn't matter, Ezio needed help in his life and a lot of it. Altair did not.
B. Actually you're the one who brought up Ezio's "multitasking" during Revelations. May be you should read your own posts.
Leonardo helped design Ezio's armor, without him Ezio would not survive. He gave Ezio his flying "plane", without it Ezio wouldn't have succeeded. Leonardo helped Ezio more than the other way. Ezio NEEDED Leonardo. Open a history book and read about Leonardo Da Vinci, even in the real world, his contributions are far beyond what most inventors have given to us.
I think Misterguyman just owned you on the power of Templars comparison between the Crusades and Renaissance. Refer to that to learn some facts. Looks like your point about Templar power and Ezio's struggle during Renaissance just backfired on you. He provided you with facts. "Templar Golden Age" during Crusades. All you did was speculate that Templars were more powerful during Ezio's time. Maybe this entire time you've been delusional about the Templars being so powerful during Ezio's time because Ezio did a bad job of getting to them. Maybe Altair just did such a great job in his legacy that it made the Templars look horrible.
Ezio was a rookie for 22 years? Jeez and you think this guy is a better Assassin than 26 year old Master Assassin Altair? Sounds like an excuse your making up for Ezio. 10 Templars 3 months. 19 Templars 22 years. That's all I'm going to say. Ezio didn't have much of a family. In fact Claudia his sister yelled at him that he pretty much abandoned her and she's been taking care of herself. Perhaps re-play the games? Altair got married and raised two sons his whole life while studying the apple and spreading the creed and killing Templars. Ezio sucked at watching over Claudia and his mom. He pretty much got owned by Claudia in Brotherhood, when he finally realizes that she has Assassin blood in her as well and has been taking care of herself. Face it, Altair was a well-rounded human being. Ezio, not nearly as good.
As far as the mercenaries and thieves, it was more like Ezio was helped by them. Sure he helped them but he required the assistance of his recruits. Altair never did.
3. So now you get caught by me about how Ezio doesn't talk to gods and are trying to claim that by talking to Desmond he has wisdom? Lmao. This debate has been so entertaining. Minerva referred to Desmonds name in AC2, that's how Ezio realized she wasn't talking to him. It doesn't really make you wise when someone clearly says someone else's name when they're speaking. Also, Ezio didn't know his purpose till he was like 52. Till then all he did was seek revenge and form the Italian brotherhood. And you think this guy is supposedly the best assassin? Wow.
Ezio fainted when he touched the apple. His willpower is horrible compared to Altair. Altair used the apple to its full potential and utilized it as a weapon without inflicting himself any mental or physical pain. Unlocking the apples full potential is a big deal. 2 pages ago you yourself said that if Ezio had studied the apple for 20 years he could have mastered it. You yourself used those words. Now your saying its not a big deal? Come on man stop flip flopping.
Lol now so Altair is greedy? What's your problem with the protagonist of the game? At least I admit I like Ezio. Altair sacrificed more in his life than Ezio ever did. He exiled HIMSELF. He didn't kill Abbas when his wife convinced him not to. He spread the Creed. He escorted the Polo brothers safely. He wouldn't tell his son about the apple to protect him and let him live a happy life. He even locked himself in his own library and died that to prevent the apple getting in the wrong hands. Altair designed the library so that only an Assassin could unlock it. He made his own tomb. If anything, Altair is shown to be the least greedy in the series of all. Altair learned his lesson as a 26 year old arrogant assassin. He grew to become a great man.
4. Ezio literally got physically and mentally beat up by Borgia. Altair didn't. And as I said, Altair's experience in the beginning of AC1 paved the way for him to learn the truth and become a better person and to understand his purpose as an assassin. Ezio had a purpose and failed. Altair never had a purpose until Al-Mualim gave him a chance and told him about The Pieces of Eden.
It doesn't matter, Altair beat the crap out of the Templar knights without any help. Ezio needed help. That's the point. Plus as I pointed out before, refer to Misterguyman's post about Templar's golden age.
Altair fought Moloch, the twins and the Oracle with low grade, cloth type armor. Ezio fought Shahkulu with plate armor and a gun. Give Altair the advanced armor, he would own Ezio. Ezio couldn't survive a day in Altair's time. Not unless he was trained since he was young. Analogy: Give am 18 year old a gun, he can kill many man. Give a 18 year old nothing, he wont survive in a bad neighborhood. And don't talk about Moloch being feat-less in games. Altair was really only in one game and even then he has far more fans than Ezio who has a darn trilogy. The sad part is Connor has more supporters than Ezio too.
1. Total BS. 10 Templars in 3 months and then 18 Templars in 40 odd years? Its a speculation because you just assume Altair would have continued to kill 10 Templars each 3 months when the rest of his life clearly didn't show that. Dispite studying the Apple on and off. Ezio had other things to deal with as well and he still managed to kill more Templars in a shorter time. Just accept that Ezio did more to stop the Templars than Altair. Altair did more for the Brotherhood which is the main reason why he's Grand Master of the Assassin's, not because he is more skilled.
2. No. A debate is about friendly arguments to prove a point. At no point is a debate suppose to switch to offensive behaviour. Just because you proved me wrong in a point doesn't mean you can rub it in. Just childish behaviour TBH.
A. From what I've read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_the_Crusader_states
"The Crusaders were at times poorly united and their tactics lacked flexibility. The Crusading soldiers were also not very disciplined."
Saracen's didn't compare to Ottomans.
B. No. The fact that Ezio HAD to kill more Templar's in his time just proves how strong the Templar hold was. Don't compare army fights. This is about indurvidual men with power and resources. Like Obama, Dalai Lama, or even Hitler and BinLarden.
2. Continued.
A. Like I keep saying, Templar's were more in power and the Brotherhood was just begining to rise from the grave. Altair wouldn't last alone. Especially if the order is broken.
B. Yeah I bought that up about Revelations as an example, but you simply ignored the fact that Ezio had been doing it his entire life.
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Leonado didn't design armor of any kind. And without Ezio's help Leonado wouldn't have survived passed Brotherhood.
Firstly I didn't know the Multiplayer was canon. Secondly, Ezio set something of the Golden Age for the Assassin's in Europe.
3. Alright I got one. Ezio mastered eagle sense. Something Altair in all his years didn't do.
4. Moloch is featless. Which suggests that Altair killing him wasn't much of a feat. Ezio took Shahkulu out by himself. Shahkulu has feats. According to history he fought small Ottoman armies. Ottomans have feats. According to history their fighting technique was comparable to the Mongol's. Mongol's have feats. In the Khan Dynasty they mowed nearly entire China down. Not to mention Ezio was being attacked by as well by Byzantines. Byzantines have feats. They beat the Ottomans in their first encounter.
Cusaders lost to Ottomans.
Altair would survive in Ezio's time, but he'd need the armor and all that stuff as well. He wouldn't be untouchable in combat either. Considering guns and other things would have tagged him. It'll be funny watching Altair try and survive in Ezio's time. Because apparently he doesn't need help, right? He has a place to stay right? He has cash and contacts to feed him intel right? Thats what I thought.
@MisterGuyMan
@MonsterStomp
"Doesn't necessarily mean nothing. And even if we did have a complete list of every member of the Templar Order I'm confident that Ezio will still come out on top with numbers. Kickazz786 had the idea that the most skilled assassin is one who kills with speed and efficiency. I proved him/her wrong when Ezio killed more in a shorter time."
Actually you haven't proved me wrong unless you think killing 19 Templars in 22 years (Ezio) is faster than killing 10 Templars in 3 months (Altair). Not sure what math you learned but if you divide the numerator by the denomination, the higher the number (as in the case of Altair's kills), means faster.
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1.Not at all, we're comparing the moment of both their lives without any priorities. Ezio merely found his purpose during Revelations and Altair during his 30s. In any case 10 Templars in 3 months is faster than 19 in 22 years. So as far as I'm concerned since an assassins job description requires speed and efficiency, seems like Altair wins. Not to mentions you yourself admitted 3 pages ago that Altair was the best at evading. So that's another important skill for an Assassin. And since this thread is about who is the better Assassin, I think we know the answer.
So now your saying Ezio did more to stop Templars because he killed more? But 3 posts ago your saying there were more Templars to begin with? How is killing more because there are more to begin with indicate that someone is a better assassin? You're contradicting yourself and not making any sense. The Soviet Union lost a ton more soldiers during WWII and still beat Germany. Numbers don't mean anything in victory. And especially in an individuals ability to fight. Maybe you should get that through your head.
2. And I will say it's childish behavior to make up fan fiction and make up false facts about Altair. You've been doing that a lot. Instead of proving why Ezio is a better Assassin, you're more focused on making up lies about Altair.
A. You need to open up some history books but it might be too late cause your talking to a history major. Here's a book lying next to me from my college days.
The Templars: The Dramatic History of the Knights Templar, the Most Powerful Military Order of the Crusades by Piers Paul Read.
Here's the description: In 1099, the city of Jerusalem, a possession of the Islamic Caliphate for over four hundred years, fell to an army of European knights intent on restoring the Cross to the Holy Lands. From the ranks of these holy warriors emerged an order of monks trained in both scripture and the military arts: The Knights of the Temple of Solomon, called the Templars.
Here's another source from the history channel called Lost Worlds: Knights Templar a video documentary.
"Templars were often the advance force in key battles of the Crusades, as the heavily armored knights on their warhorses would set out to charge at the enemy, in an attempt to break opposition lines. One of their most famous victories was in 1177 during the Battle of Montgisard, where some 500 Templar knights helped several thousand infantry to defeat Saladin's army of more than 26,000 soldiers."
Altair fended off Genghis Khan. One of the greatest leaders who controlled one of the deadliest armies in the world. You can try to argue against me about that historical fact but you won't win.
B. And even if I went along with your analogy, Ezio needed help. Altair didn't. If at best this cancels both out or makes Altair look superior.
2. Continued
A. Oh but he did last alone. He lasted alone against Robert De Sable and their Templar Knights and as I said before Templar Knights were no joke. Golden age of Templars during Altair's time where he single handedly took down the Grand Master.
B. Ezio did not do any type of multitasking like he did in Revelations. Altair did lots of major multitasking since he was 26. Ezio stayed in Italy most of his darn life, Altair traveled most of his.
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Play AC2 again, Leonardo deciphered all the codex pages and rebuilt the hidden blade. He re-designed things for Ezio using Altair's pages. He gave Ezio his airplane that he designed.
And Altair paved the path for all of the Assassins, including Ezio. Ezio changed Europe. Altair changed both Europe and Asia.
3. Actually Ezio didn't "master" Eagle Sense. He needed to look at individuals separately, he couldn't do it in big crowds. And as far as Eagle Vision, Conner's Eagle vision destroyed both Altair's and Ezio's so if anything HE actually "mastered" something.
4. And Altair at an old age along with his son took care of the Mongols. So what's your point?
Oh so now you want to talk about how Altair couldn't last in Ezio's time without armor? Okay so your whole attempt at an argument about how Ezio beat Shahkulu and any of his accomplishments is a waste. Because apparently Ezio's armor and advance weapons was why he was able to do those things. So now you can't even say that "Templar Knights and Saracens and Crusaders were nothing compared to Ottomans" You comparing armies of two different time periods. This is exactly what I wanted you to say. Good job, you just wasted away another one of your arguments. All your posts about how Ezio defeated bigger armies and Templars than Altair just lost credibility. That's what I thought.
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