Who's the better tactician Summers or Rogers

I would throw my hat in with Cyclops on this one.

Cyclops has been doing it since he was fifteen and has commanded one of the most the most blustering groups of heroes in comics for years
 
I would vote for him

In combat = Rogers

In the field,preparing, planning and orchestrating the troops = Cyke

Cap.

@TheGoldenOne said:

Cap.

I don't know, I've been reading comics again since Secret Invasion and have yet to notice anything he's done that would lead to this conclusion.

@TheGoldenOne said:

Cap.

reasons??

Going with Cap all the way on this

Cap.

Cyclops

Keiron Gillen > Bendis

Cyclops

Keiron Gillen > Bendis

it deends on the prep tim e really:

cykes if he had alot

cap if not cause he has been to war and has military training

Cyclops all the way

- Both are very overrated in this regard, each has been given a handful of very good showings to be used as feats, but most of the time they are just shown to tell their team to go punch somebody. Leadership in comics is much more about being told who is the best rather than shown on page. You could also make this argument towards any number of comic book leaders, this does not just apply to these two, they are just among the most visible examples.

- Both are very good field leaders when dealing with team or squad based units, the X-writers have done a lot more recently to show the tactics used by Cyclops so while he looks better over the past 5-10 years I still give a slight nod to Cap if you take their overall careers into the argument.

- As political or organizational leaders they are both way out of their element and it shows. Cap as Top Cop and Cyclops as King of the Mutants have shown them making questionable to terrible decisions and the Avengers and X-Men have been constantly in complete disarray. If they were as great as many thinks they were, they would remove themselves from positions they are not suited for, putting a person or group in charge in a political sense, and go back to what they excel at.

@vicioushero said:

@TheGoldenOne said:

Cap.

I don't know, I've been reading comics again since Secret Invasion and have yet to notice anything he's done that would lead to this conclusion.

Not to be an ass and I respect you but that means the majority of your experience with Steve Rogers was while he was deceased?

Personally I don't see either as better, they both have their achievements to stand up for them.

@CATPANEXE said:

@vicioushero said:

@TheGoldenOne said:

Cap.

I don't know, I've been reading comics again since Secret Invasion and have yet to notice anything he's done that would lead to this conclusion.

Not to be an ass and I respect you but that means the majority of your experience with Steve Rogers was while he was deceased?

Personally I don't see either as better, they both have their achievements to stand up for them.

True, I'm no historian by any means but I've been reading a lot of back issues and have read all of Civil War and have yet to see the tactical skills everyone refers to when they talk about why Rogers is such a great leader or why he's more than just street level.

@Vincent92 said:

it deends on the prep tim e really:

cykes if he had alot

cap if not cause he has been to war and has military training

The wiki said that the less time or prep time Cyke has to consider a decision the better it is because his self doubt can destroy his plans

also I vote that Cyke is the best natural strategist but Cap is better in practice

For me it's Cyclops all the way.

I always here about cap being a great strategist, but his strategies tend to involve shouting ;'assemble' and then everyone charges in a group and punch the bad guys in the face... I mean, it tends to work, so I guess it's a strategy. I've read Cap since Brubacker took over, does anyone have any scans that show him using actual forward planning?

With feats like Cyclops' handling of the secret invasion, and out-manoeuvring Osborn during dark reign, he's really been impressive tactically in recent years

Rogers

Cyclops.

He's been fighting longer. Harder and with less support.

Tangent: I'm still waiting on the slash fic where Cap and Cyke fight for Wolverine's affection.

Captain America Easily. Not saying Cyclops isn't good but cap is just that much better.

Who gets more people killed out of them?

@Supreme Marvel said:

Who gets more people killed out of them?

Not sure that's really fair being Cap fought in World War 2.

On the Field- Cap 
 
In the Planning Room- Cyke

@TheCrowbar: True. Let's make it even. Since Cyclops has been a leader, who has got most of their team mates killed?

@Supreme Marvel said:

@TheCrowbar: True. Let's make it even. Since Cyclops has been a leader, who has got most of their team mates killed?

Again that's not fair. But then it's pretty much a draw for both Cyclops and Cap. But probably more Cap if we don't count resurrections.

@The Stegman said:

On the Field- Cap In the Planning Room- Cyke

Even Cap says Cyclops is top notch on the field.

@TheCrowbar said:

Cyclops.

He's been fighting longer. Harder and with less support.

Tangent: I'm still waiting on the slash fic where Cap and Cyke fight for Wolverine's affection.

Merry Christmas. Here is your present

@BlackArmor:

HAHAHA I can't believe I missed that one.

@The Stegman:

Cap lost Civil War, Cap's the reason for Dark Reign. Cyclops might be a dick in his personal life but he hasn't screwed up on the field anywhere near as much as cap.

@WarMachineMarkV said:

- Both are very overrated in this regard, each has been given a handful of very good showings to be used as feats, but most of the time they are just shown to tell their team to go punch somebody. Leadership in comics is much more about being told who is the best rather than shown on page. You could also make this argument towards any number of comic book leaders, this does not just apply to these two, they are just among the most visible examples.

- Both are very good field leaders when dealing with team or squad based units, the X-writers have done a lot more recently to show the tactics used by Cyclops so while he looks better over the past 5-10 years I still give a slight nod to Cap if you take their overall careers into the argument.

- As political or organizational leaders they are both way out of their element and it shows. Cap as Top Cop and Cyclops as King of the Mutants have shown them making questionable to terrible decisions and the Avengers and X-Men have been constantly in complete disarray. If they were as great as many thinks they were, they would remove themselves from positions they are not suited for, putting a person or group in charge in a political sense, and go back to what they excel at.

Agreed,especially with the first paragraph.

@TheCrowbar: I agree Summers has been doing it since he was a teen, and hes constantly having to work with a rotating cast .Not only has Summers had to deal with constant in the field strategics he also has to deal with a civilian public that fears and hates his kind. That's never easy when one doesnt want to hurt innocents and they constantly are hostile (throw rocks, spit etc.) Cap is a great team leader but his team is usually more powerful and most of the time i feel they use Visions plan or just charge in and beat ass. Gotta stick with Cyclops.

Slim is close to BatGod status.. Cap is 50%Balls of steel 50%Nostalgia Rep

With Slim the higher the pressure/stakes the better he performs &he has no respect for firepower or "reputation" hes done &seen it all (hes been leading ALOT longer than steve..) ppl seem to forget his opponents 60yrs time frozen in the arctic doesnt COUNT as ACTUAL experience..

Steve is also icecube in the snow cool under pressure.. but enlisted at 18 &in comic book terms is probly nomore than 25-26 adding up to about 7-8 yrs constant deployment experience tops. what makes him special is the COLOSSAL expectations ppl place upon him as an icon/symbol of greatness &his constant belief that he MUST live up to them along with his sheer strength of will.

Slims been doin this since he was 15 REALTIME with no serum is around 28 &has an additional 15yrs of time displaced experience raising Cable in an apocolyptic future plus everythin he soaked up bein made one with En Sabah Nur taking on Osborn &countless threats plus saving the entire mutant race running a whole "sovereign state" all in the space of a few months &has only made ONE slightly questionable but probly very neccessary deciaion in that time.... Oh & it never hurts having Beast Gambit &Logan as sparring partners over the yrs.. in other words the guys a frackin BOSS

in any realistic scenario Steve will be PRAYING this doesnt become a desperation situation. cause then theres NOWAY he could win. I just hope marvels hacks remember this when it breaks down.

@THEBlaqueBasterd said:

Slim is close to BatGod status.. Cap is 50%Balls of steel 50%Nostalgia Rep

With Slim the higher the pressure/stakes the better he performs &he has no respect for firepower or "reputation" hes done &seen it all (hes been leading ALOT longer than steve..) ppl seem to forget his opponents 60yrs time frozen in the arctic doesnt COUNT as ACTUAL experience..

Steve is also icecube in the snow cool under pressure.. but enlisted at 18 &in comic book terms is probly nomore than 25-26 adding up to about 7-8 yrs constant deployment experience tops. what makes him special is the COLOSSAL expectations ppl place upon him as an icon/symbol of greatness &his constant belief that he MUST live up to them along with his sheer strength of will.

Slims been doin this since he was 15 REALTIME with no serum is around 28 &has an additional 15yrs of time displaced experience raising Cable in an apocolyptic future plus everythin he soaked up bein made one with En Sabah Nur taking on Osborn &countless threats plus saving the entire mutant race running a whole "sovereign state" all in the space of a few months &has only made ONE slightly questionable but probly very neccessary deciaion in that time.... Oh & it never hurts having Beast Gambit &Logan as sparring partners over the yrs.. in other words the guys a frackin BOSS

in any realistic scenario Steve will be PRAYING this doesnt become a desperation situation. cause then theres NOWAY he could win. I just hope marvels hacks remember this when it breaks down.

I fully agree with what was said here, well thought out reply....two thumbs up.

Rogers no question about it! he's led multiple rosters of the avengers and has emerged as the undisputed leader of the avengers plus he was/is the "top cop" (sorry not up to speed) cyclops is good admittedly but recently has made some bad descisons im with rogers on this one

@THEBlaqueBasterd said:

Slim is close to BatGod status.. Cap is 50%Balls of steel 50%Nostalgia Rep

With Slim the higher the pressure/stakes the better he performs &he has no respect for firepower or "reputation" hes done &seen it all (hes been leading ALOT longer than steve..) ppl seem to forget his opponents 60yrs time frozen in the arctic doesnt COUNT as ACTUAL experience..

Steve is also icecube in the snow cool under pressure.. but enlisted at 18 &in comic book terms is probly nomore than 25-26 adding up to about 7-8 yrs constant deployment experience tops. what makes him special is the COLOSSAL expectations ppl place upon him as an icon/symbol of greatness &his constant belief that he MUST live up to them along with his sheer strength of will.

Slims been doin this since he was 15 REALTIME with no serum is around 28 &has an additional 15yrs of time displaced experience raising Cable in an apocolyptic future plus everythin he soaked up bein made one with En Sabah Nur taking on Osborn &countless threats plus saving the entire mutant race running a whole "sovereign state" all in the space of a few months &has only made ONE slightly questionable but probly very neccessary deciaion in that time.... Oh & it never hurts having Beast Gambit &Logan as sparring partners over the yrs.. in other words the guys a frackin BOSS

in any realistic scenario Steve will be PRAYING this doesnt become a desperation situation. cause then theres NOWAY he could win. I just hope marvels hacks remember this when it breaks down.

Well Said

@TheCrowbar said:

Cap lost Civil War, Cap's the reason for Dark Reign. Cyclops might be a dick in his personal life but he hasn't screwed up on the field anywhere near as much as cap.

How is Cap mildly responsible for Dark Reign?

@ReVamp said:

@TheCrowbar said:

Cap lost Civil War, Cap's the reason for Dark Reign. Cyclops might be a dick in his personal life but he hasn't screwed up on the field anywhere near as much as cap.

How is Cap mildly responsible for Dark Reign?

Dark Reign wouldn't have happened if he had won Civil War.

@TheCrowbar said:

@ReVamp said:

@TheCrowbar said:

Cap lost Civil War, Cap's the reason for Dark Reign. Cyclops might be a dick in his personal life but he hasn't screwed up on the field anywhere near as much as cap.

How is Cap mildly responsible for Dark Reign?

Dark Reign wouldn't have happened if he had won Civil War.

So its his fault that he lost Civil War? Because its not like he was endangering civilians?

@TheCrowbar

Civil War

1- Never should have happened based on the events that led up to it

2 - Cap lost so that the writers could tell their story, then kill and resurrect him to sell a lot of books

3 - Bendis loves Norman Osborn so much he will continue to have him dominate against characters way out of his league no matter what. If Marvel mandated Cap has to win Civil War the same thing would have happened.

@THEBlaqueBasterd said:

Slim is close to BatGod status.. Cap is 50%Balls of steel 50%Nostalgia Rep

With Slim the higher the pressure/stakes the better he performs &he has no respect for firepower or "reputation" hes done &seen it all (hes been leading ALOT longer than steve..) ppl seem to forget his opponents 60yrs time frozen in the arctic doesnt COUNT as ACTUAL experience..

Steve is also icecube in the snow cool under pressure.. but enlisted at 18 &in comic book terms is probly nomore than 25-26 adding up to about 7-8 yrs constant deployment experience tops. what makes him special is the COLOSSAL expectations ppl place upon him as an icon/symbol of greatness &his constant belief that he MUST live up to them along with his sheer strength of will.

Slims been doin this since he was 15 REALTIME with no serum is around 28 &has an additional 15yrs of time displaced experience raising Cable in an apocolyptic future plus everythin he soaked up bein made one with En Sabah Nur taking on Osborn &countless threats plus saving the entire mutant race running a whole "sovereign state" all in the space of a few months &has only made ONE slightly questionable but probly very neccessary deciaion in that time.... Oh & it never hurts having Beast Gambit &Logan as sparring partners over the yrs.. in other words the guys a frackin BOSS

in any realistic scenario Steve will be PRAYING this doesnt become a desperation situation. cause then theres NOWAY he could win. I just hope marvels hacks remember this when it breaks down.

1 - I agree that Cap gets a lot of credit due to nostalgia value, many readers will give him the win without even thinking about it because Marvel has pimped him as the best for so many decades. A lot of older readers give cap too much credit, but a lot of newer readers give Scott too much because of the recent feats given to him.

2 - Cap was brought back in an issue from (March 1964), Cyclops debuted in an issue from (September 1963), so in Marvel time they have been around for almost the same amount of time. Your claim of "done and seen it all" could easily apply to both of them so I do not see it as a way to rise one above the other.

3 - Saying Cyclops saved the mutant race is an opinion not a fact, you can argue many of the decisions he has made as either helping or hurting the X-Men based on perspective.

4 - You absolutely cannot be serious that you really believe that since taking over from Xavier, Scott has been shown to make only ONE questionable decision. I could bore everyone with listing the dozen or so I have mentioned in prior posts on other threads, but tone down the Cyclops-fanboy-love for a minute and lets be real.

@ReVamp said:

@TheCrowbar said:

@ReVamp said:

@TheCrowbar said:

Cap lost Civil War, Cap's the reason for Dark Reign. Cyclops might be a dick in his personal life but he hasn't screwed up on the field anywhere near as much as cap.

How is Cap mildly responsible for Dark Reign?

Dark Reign wouldn't have happened if he had won Civil War.

So its his fault that he lost Civil War? Because its not like he was endangering civilians?

His reasons are irrelevant, he still lost.

@WarMachineMarkV said:

@TheCrowbar

Civil War

1- Never should have happened based on the events that led up to it

2 - Cap lost so that the writers could tell their story, then kill and resurrect him to sell a lot of books

3 - Bendis loves Norman Osborn so much he will continue to have him dominate against characters way out of his league no matter what. If Marvel mandated Cap has to win Civil War the same thing would have happened.

Irrelevant, the story that was told, was told. The reasons for it don't matter.

@WarMachineMarkV said:

- Both are very overrated in this regard, each has been given a handful of very good showings to be used as feats, but most of the time they are just shown to tell their team to go punch somebody. Leadership in comics is much more about being told who is the best rather than shown on page. You could also make this argument towards any number of comic book leaders, this does not just apply to these two, they are just among the most visible examples.

- Both are very good field leaders when dealing with team or squad based units, the X-writers have done a lot more recently to show the tactics used by Cyclops so while he looks better over the past 5-10 years I still give a slight nod to Cap if you take their overall careers into the argument.

- As political or organizational leaders they are both way out of their element and it shows. Cap as Top Cop and Cyclops as King of the Mutants have shown them making questionable to terrible decisions and the Avengers and X-Men have been constantly in complete disarray. If they were as great as many thinks they were, they would remove themselves from positions they are not suited for, putting a person or group in charge in a political sense, and go back to what they excel at.

I wholeheartedly agree and disagree with this post. The sentiment with Cap is perfect. I love him and he's a great character but he's hardly the best tactician on the planet. His on panel feats like you said amount to him telling people to punch things. And Cap isn't Nick Fury. He doesn't have the head for espionage. He's also not Tony Stark. He doesn't have the head for national security and he's not a big picture kind of guy.

But Cyclops has so many on panel tactical and strategic feats (especially in the last five years) it's ridiculous. the Utopia arcs, Second Coming, Fear Itself all clearly show how tactically sharp Scott Summers is. And he's also the perfect representative for the mutant race. He doesn't back down when it comes to his people. He's an inspirational leader to so many mutants. I think Scott Summers is leagues beyond Captain America in a leadership role. He's also a better character in general. More multidimensional.

In combat = Rogers

In the field,preparing, planning and orchestrating the troops = Cyke

Arguments within the thread are making me favor Scott, whereas I was thinking even though on the fence.

- All I can say is wow

- With all the things that have went wrong since Cyclops started running the show, I simply cannot believe how many people give him all the credit for everything that has gone right, and none of the blame for what has went wrong. I'd continue to argue but i can see it's falling on deaf ears

@WarMachineMarkV said:

- All I can say is wow

- With all the things that have went wrong since Cyclops started running the show, I simply cannot believe how many people give him all the credit for everything that has gone right, and none of the blame for what has went wrong. I'd continue to argue but i can see it's falling on deaf ears

Ignoring the argument that's currently going on, are you any less shocked by all those unwilling to give him no credit for the good he has done and are aware of only the bad? note I am not referring to yourself since you have given him some credit

@BlackArmor said:

@WarMachineMarkV said:

- All I can say is wow

- With all the things that have went wrong since Cyclops started running the show, I simply cannot believe how many people give him all the credit for everything that has gone right, and none of the blame for what has went wrong. I'd continue to argue but i can see it's falling on deaf ears

Ignoring the argument that's currently going on, are you any less shocked by all those unwilling to give him no credit for the good he has done and are aware of only the bad? note I am not referring to yourself since you have given him some credit

- It's the other side of the coin, I feel the same about the posts that choose only the points that demonize him, if your going to use what happened on page as evidence, you better be able to explain the things that support your opinion as well as the parts that do not.

- A lot of the die hard Cyclops haters will simply never forgive him for how he left Jean and hopped right into bed with Emma after a grieving period of about 9 hours. Their hate for the character is based on personal reasons, not performance, which are two totally different discussions. His relationship issues are epic, but have no relevance to his leadership ability.

- If anyone thinks that Scott is not a top 5 leader in the Marvel U, they are kidding themselves, period. As to where he falls in that order is up to debate, and its very hard to be definitive because many of these characters have 50 year histories and we all have read only a fraction of whats out there in regards to the argument. Picking and choosing what parts of that history to use is bs, the whole is greater than the parts and tells the real story.

- I have no problem if anyone thinks Cyclops is the best leader in the Marvel U, his resume puts him squarely in the discussion. My problem is when someone cannot even acknowledge when there is something that would put him in a bad light. The writers DESIGNED many of his decisions over the past 5 years to be questionable, this isn't a secret, it's OBVIOUS, so if your going to pretend otherwise you are a fanboy/girl and fooling yourselves.

- I could go on further about all the characters with sudden mass personality/decision changes, writers with agendas, etc. but if you are not already aware these things exist and are debatable, then you have problems I cannot fix and will have to remain ignorant. IMO many of the decisions Scott made were terrible as I have expanded upon on other related threads so I won't bore everyone by listing or linking them again.

@TheCrowbar said:

@ReVamp said:

@TheCrowbar said:

@ReVamp said:

@TheCrowbar said:

Cap lost Civil War, Cap's the reason for Dark Reign. Cyclops might be a dick in his personal life but he hasn't screwed up on the field anywhere near as much as cap.

How is Cap mildly responsible for Dark Reign?

Dark Reign wouldn't have happened if he had won Civil War.

So its his fault that he lost Civil War? Because its not like he was endangering civilians?

His reasons are irrelevant, he still lost.

So losers are to blame for losing?

@WarMachineMarkV said:

@BlackArmor said:

@WarMachineMarkV said:

- All I can say is wow

- With all the things that have went wrong since Cyclops started running the show, I simply cannot believe how many people give him all the credit for everything that has gone right, and none of the blame for what has went wrong. I'd continue to argue but i can see it's falling on deaf ears

Ignoring the argument that's currently going on, are you any less shocked by all those unwilling to give him no credit for the good he has done and are aware of only the bad? note I am not referring to yourself since you have given him some credit

- It's the other side of the coin, I feel the same about the posts that choose only the points that demonize him, if your going to use what happened on page as evidence, you better be able to explain the things that support your opinion as well as the parts that do not.

- A lot of the die hard Cyclops haters will simply never forgive him for how he left Jean and hopped right into bed with Emma after a grieving period of about 9 hours. Their hate for the character is based on personal reasons, not performance, which are two totally different discussions. His relationship issues are epic, but have no relevance to his leadership ability.

- If anyone thinks that Scott is not a top 5 leader in the Marvel U, they are kidding themselves, period. As to where he falls in that order is up to debate, and its very hard to be definitive because many of these characters have 50 year histories and we all have read only a fraction of whats out there in regards to the argument. Picking and choosing what parts of that history to use is bs, the whole is greater than the parts and tells the real story.

- I have no problem if anyone thinks Cyclops is the best leader in the Marvel U, his resume puts him squarely in the discussion. My problem is when someone cannot even acknowledge when there is something that would put him in a bad light. The writers DESIGNED many of his decisions over the past 5 years to be questionable, this isn't a secret, it's OBVIOUS, so if your going to pretend otherwise you are a fanboy/girl and fooling yourselves.

- I could go on further about all the characters with sudden mass personality/decision changes, writers with agendas, etc. but if you are not already aware these things exist and are debatable, then you have problems I cannot fix and will have to remain ignorant. IMO many of the decisions Scott made were terrible as I have expanded upon on other related threads so I won't bore everyone by listing or linking them again.

Very logically said.

@ReVamp said:

So losers are to blame for losing?

Only if they didn't do everything in their power to win. It's been a while since I read civil war so I'm not sure if this applies to cap

@BlackArmor said:

@ReVamp said:

So losers are to blame for losing?

Only if they didn't do everything in their power to win. It's been a while since I read civil war so I'm not sure if this applies to cap

He did everything, until he saw innocents were at risk of being killed. Then he wanted to try and solve the matter legally instead.