@oviouslyjeangrey said:
@Veitha: Wrong she not their cheerleader; she their QUEEN XD.
And she's been dead for ....awhile. And now you get a teenage version in a possibly terrible book. You guys certainly win :D.
Character » Emma Frost appears in 6127 issues.
@ApatheticAvenger said:
@time: My response to this thread. I'm too tired at the moment to elaborate on why Emma is the greatest leading lady the X-Men have ever had, alongside Kitty Pryde, thanks to the genius of Grant Morrison and Joss Whedon. Jean Grey was a boring Mary Sue only made interesting when she was possessed by a cosmic entity, and I've never been a Storm fan.
@ApatheticAvenger said:
I love you.
@god_spawn: And she's been dead for ....awhile. And now you get a teenage version in a possibly terrible book. You guys certainly win :D.
I dont care if she been dead 100 years she will still beat Emma in everything. She was the first X-woman ever Emma is nothing. Plus Emma was in AvX which was terrible so.........
I disagree with a few points, I'll explain why and I will limit myself to a few. Other than that I love seeing lengthly posts and blogs where people express themselves, so mad props and respect.Awesome post!! I agree with everything you said!!Emma is a fictional character she isn't handed anything and the character received incredible amounts of fan backlash, as she was intended to, because Grant Morrison is the type of writer to shake up things and get people talking. Even though he isn't my favorite X-Men writer (Chris Claremont is) and even though they have very different writing styles, if you look at Chris Claremont's writing, moments like Storm drastically changing her look, having a villain character join the X-Men (Rogue) having writers do something controversial with the possibility of fan backlash has always been a part of the X-Men. I don't agree and I know the X-Men and everything like the back of my hand. How does one define competition? When Emma was introduced Jean was given equal billing and X-Men thrived, Rogue has gotten great exposure as well, and more panel time isn't always a good thing as Fraction proved with his systematic destruction of Emma that she has barely recovered from before AVX further distanced the character from the qualities many people liked about her. Emma has suffered from poor writing too. Erm okay rereading I don't really feel like I need to add more points lol. Emma is a great X-character and leading lady because she isn't redundantly the same as any of the other X-Characters. She brings something original to the table, and has positives and negatives that all characters have and that mix allows for great conflict and great interaction with other characters. Look at how different the X-Men female characters are? Rogue is sassy, optimistic and stubborn, with a certain pigheadedness and issues involving emotional and physical distance, and this distinguishes her from say Storm, who is tempered, weathered, refined and confident, a natural leader, but also a character that has so many different facets per her varying roles which contrasts with Emma's sarcastic intellectual cynicism, and willingness to clash with people and taking delight at people she dislikes misfortune. I mean they are all strong female characters but the cool thing is they are different. They are diverse, its really great. Emma is a great character because she provides natural tension and conflict with so many of the X-Characters who are more naturally optimistic and nice and the thing about conflict is that resolution follows, which is also great. I mean look at Rogue and Dazzler's older interaction, that stuff was great. Team members getting along well with everyone is so fake and contrived. Its so cheesy. Throw some bite into the story, I love Emma, and I love Jean and so I loved there stories together like their Nuff Said issue in Xavier's mind. Rogue and Storm use to have a bit of conflict as well. Emma and Betsy, love both, and they have had some great moments too. Moments you can't get between Storm and Psylocke. Oh and how did I forget Emma and Kitty moments? Emma and Iceman moments, Emma and Beast moments. Emma is a great character because she allows us to see characters in a different light and they in turn allow us to see Emma in a different light. The friend (Beast) the lover (Cyclops) the antagonist (if you prefer Jean a bit more) the protagonist (if you like Emma a bit more) the rival (Kitty, interchangeable with Jean) and much less subtle parts. A few months ago one of the organizers of the Slut Walks referenced Emma Frost by name. Out of all the female comic book characters she could have mentioned, it was Emma Frost who was mentioned as a character that exemplified what being a modern, smart, intelligent, confident, independent, sexually secure, woman is all about. Emma won't shut up, she won't back down, and its great since when she is written best she doesn't need everyones approval, just those willing to look at her and recognize a great character! Great thread once again, and always great to see people having opinions and expressing them in so much detail."I think Emma has had everything handed to her on a plate. If no one agrees with me on this, then they haven’t be reading X-Men comics properly. Since Emma became X-Men leading lady. She has faced no real competition from any other X-lady. Infact, all the X- ladies have been treated very poorly by marvel, marvel made most them irrelevant, or not portraying them properly in comics."
@time: I already offered my opinion, but I am sorry if you felt bullied that was not my intent. I was simply making a statement against Hate threads in general and I did read your post and disagree with you. Emma isn't the worst or a bad leading lady and I think she reflects a different era of the X-Men.
I do consider this a hate thread and this is a theme with you threads towards Emma Frost and Cyclops. You offer plenty of great thought provoking threads, but whenever Scott or Emma is involved it basically becomes a well worded bashing. That is simply my opinion on the matter.
Why is Emma the best leading lady, because she helped cylpcops chacter grow..........................WHAT?! Who cares what she did for cyclops we talking about the X-men who she has done nothign for. So there is no way no way Emma beats any othe X-men leading laddies. Look Emmas cool and all but dont compare her to real X-woman. Who have earned their place
I happen to really like Emma but given that she's in so many titles, she's very susceptible to a spectrum of varying interpretations. Sometimes she's extremely crass and superficial, cold and domineering, or witty and fashionably chilly...obviously my personal preference is for latter.
When done correctly, I think Emma is very compelling like her arc in "Torn" during Joss Whedon's Astonishing run (que the one sourpuss that doesn't like Joss Whedon's Astonishing). Over time I think people have lost grasp on her finer subtleties and now resort to her whining about petty things or being mean to people for no apparent reason. Either that or she has all of sudden surrendered all independence and looks to Scott for ideological beliefs whereas she used to actually run her own school and Frost enterprises as well as being an essential part of the Hellfire Club.
I feel like lately Emma has become the whipping girl for Scott's actions. He'll do something completely reckless and poorly conceived but Emma will say something bitchy and support him so we can all hate her rather than hold Scott accountable. This way we can say she's "changed him" so the virgin-whore balance between Jean and Emma is still stable when in reality it's just bad writing.
I imagine that if Marvel ever lets Emma be who she really is and drop Scott, we'll all come to love her again. Even if it means screwing Namor.
I have tried over and over again to like Emma...but everytime I start..she does something that only furthers my hatred for her.
@oviouslyjeangrey said:
Why is Emma the best leading lady, because she helped cylpcops chacter grow..........................WHAT?! Who cares what she did for cyclops we talking about the X-men who she has done nothign for. So there is no way no way Emma beats any othe X-men leading laddies. Look Emmas cool and all but dont compare her to real X-woman. Who have earned their place
i think emma was only interested in scott because he was the leader of the x-men......she only slept her way to the top like with shaw, namor and even ironman
@HexThis said:
I happen to really like Emma but given that she's in so many titles, she's very susceptible to a spectrum of varying interpretations. Sometimes she's extremely crass and superficial, cold and domineering, or witty and fashionably chilly...obviously my personal preference is for latter.
When done correctly, I think Emma is very compelling like her arc in "Torn" during Joss Whedon's Astonishing run (que the one sourpuss that doesn't like Joss Whedon's Astonishing). Over time I think people have lost grasp on her finer subtleties and now resort to her whining about petty things or being mean to people for no apparent reason. Either that or she has all of sudden surrendered all independence and looks to Scott for ideological beliefs whereas she used to actually run her own school and Frost enterprises as well as being an essential part of the Hellfire Club.
I feel like lately Emma has become the whipping girl for Scott's actions. He'll do something completely reckless and poorly conceived but Emma will say something bitchy and support him so we can all hate her rather than hold Scott accountable. This way we can say she's "changed him" so the virgin-whore balance between Jean and Emma is still stable when in reality it's just bad writing.
I imagine that if Marvel ever lets Emma be who she really is and drop Scott, we'll all come to love her again. Even if it means screwing Namor.
Exactly. Thank you for this.
As for the comments I am seeing here, liking Emma does not mean you dislike Jean. Why this happens, I have no idea.
@ApatheticAvenger
Claiming the best thing Jean ever did was die is just as insulting as claiming Emma is a worthless character.
@lykopis said:
@HexThis said:
@ApatheticAvenger
Claiming the best thing Jean ever did was die is just as insulting as claiming Emma is a worthless character.
thank you....jean will rise again and i think since its almost x-men's 50th anniversary, she'll come back soon
@lykopis said:
Exactly. Thank you for this.
As for the comments I am seeing here, liking Emma does not mean you dislike Jean. Why this happens, I have no idea.
@ApatheticAvenger
Claiming the best thing Jean ever did was die is just as insulting as claiming Emma is a worthless character.
You know what's funny about all these people who pit Jean against Emma? They've forgotten that it was Jean's idea to recruit Emma! When Emma was retrieved from Genosha, she said the X-men needed Emma's brilliance. Okay, so Emma was standoffish but not much later Jean also resurrected Emma.
@time: Its ok, time you made this thread to express your opinion, and for others to post their own. Nobody is right or wrong since its just opinion. You can post what ever you want lol as long as it does not go against the term of use agreement or what ever. Which this thread doesnt so for all those people who dont like this thread just tell them TUFF what are you going to do about it, cry? LOLOLOLOL XD
@ApatheticAvenger:
Never said you claimed she was worthless (Jean), just that the best thing she ever did was die. Which is not true, but it did bring about a new direction for the X-Men, so I get you there.
Morrison did take the X-Men in new direction but I really didn't have a problem with who the X-Men were before either. I am a Claremont fan through and through (for the most part) and his bringing in characters like Rogue and Gambit were to me the best thing that was to happen to the X-Men because it was the first time they were presented as faulted - not just the obvious villain gone gone, but also the holier-than-thou good two shoes that were so judgemental.
Personally, killing Jean was more easier to write because a breakdown of a marriage and having two people move on from that is a lot more harder to convey in a comic than having someone die dramatically. And although it was lovely how Jean was the one to push Scott into accepting Emma's love (for the sake of all mutants!!!) just rang a bit hollow for me. People might point out the kiss on Jean's grave being in poor taste, but to me it was just a rush by the writer to get cracking on his new vision for Scott.
I am just saying, Jean is a fantastic character who was already fully fleshed out by Claremont (in my opinion). That's not to say I didn't appreciate Morrison's interpretation and although some felt she was revealed to be a cold, god-complexed individual, I saw her more as a strong, independent person who was capable and deserving of her position as headmistress of the Xavier Institute.
@HexThis said:
You know what's funny about all these people who pit Jean against Emma? They've forgotten that it was Jean's idea to recruit Emma! When Emma was retrieved from Genosha, she said the X-men needed Emma's brilliance. Okay, so Emma was standoffish but not much later Jean also resurrected Emma.
So true.
@ApatheticAvenger:
Strange how you and I interpret the X-Men as being faulted prior to Claremont's run. Boy Scout Scott dealing with insecurities and Idealistic Tormented Mentor/Father Figure Xavier to me are just well travelled side-stories that followed in the foot-steps of other comics before and around them. Wolverine might have been an attempt to shake things up but having a constantly drunk man-with-a-past is another tired insertion to create conflict. I meant more along the lines of a flighty thirteen year old who crushed on an older teen, the attitude Storm had (and others) when Rogue showed up at their door. Rogue and Gambit becoming popular was to be expected, I agree but their relationship and how it was presented in the comic was novel. Jean and Scott just were put together -- Barbie and Ken.
As for Jean dying being the most defining part of her, I disagree although I absolutely see your point. She could have easily been treated like Scott, and he be the Gary-Stu so one of them had to fall.
And yes --- I completely agree about how Jean should have never been brought back after she first died. But now we are asking too much --- how dare we expect writer's to be able to assert their well presented story ideas and conclusions without editorial interference? ;p
@ApatheticAvenger:
Yes, agree to disagree.
Just to let you know, Wolverine is my favourite comic character - bar none - so I am well aware of his affect on the comic world. I meant in regards to story-telling in general, not just specifically to comics. Why you keep bringing up Rogue and Gambit, I don't quite get? I was using the characters as examples of how Claremont focused more on relationships between characters whether it was Kitty to Storm or Nightcrawler to Collossus and yes, Rogue and Gambit. Why would there have ever been a series for Rogue and Gambit? It would have been incredibly boring - what made them stand out at all was when they were in the company of others. Which brings me back to my point about Claremont's approach to interaction between characters.
Fair enough --- you never said Jean should have remained dead. And as for the X-Factor and the 90's X Men and Morrison's New X-Men - I wouldn't go so far as to say her return made them possible, but it certainly made for great story-telling having the infamous Phoenix be such a large part of all things X-Men. If she remained dead, I am sure equally as successful runs would have happened but that's just conjecture, obviously. For me, the X-Men mythos was more to do with defending and protecting a world that hated them rather than going up against a planet-destroying entity and it would have retained me as a fan, with or without the introduction of the Dark Phoenix.
@ApatheticAvenger:
Never said you implied the focus of the X-Men mythos was on the Phoenix?
Anyhoo --- thanks for the run down of writers and whatnot when it comes to the X-Men, I am aware of each but it's good to get that out there to those who might not know. As for my points about X-Factor et al, I was pretty clear in that the X-Men would have remained successful in whatever direction Claremont took them and others following him. Ideas always abound, hence my saying its conjecture. No one can claim the X-Men franchise would have died had it not gone in the direction it has (I am not saying you did -- want to make that clear) yet having said that, I did and still do enjoy the stories you have pointed out. Classics, each.
Great convo by the way, nice talking to other well-informed and knowledgeable X-Men fans.
@ApatheticAvenger:
All of this is conjecture, but yes, it was Claremont who took the X-Men and made them relevant and popular. This is why he is my favourite X-Men writer. Sorry for the confusion, but my sentence was preceded that it was my take on things and no one else's.
Agreed. This thread has been derailed enough.
@ApatheticAvenger said:
@lykopis said:
@ApatheticAvenger
Claiming the best thing Jean ever did was die is just as insulting as claiming Emma is a worthless character.
No it's not, because I'm not claiming that she's worthless. Jean has worth as a character, she just happens to have more worth in death than in life. :P
@HopesummersFORtheFUTURE said:
@lykopis said:
@HexThis said:
@ApatheticAvenger
Claiming the best thing Jean ever did was die is just as insulting as claiming Emma is a worthless character.
thank you....jean will rise again and i think since its almost x-men's 50th anniversary, she'll come back soon
Highly doubtful. Teenage Jean is likely the only Jean we'll be seeing for a long time. Could be wrong, but wouldn't count on it.
I feel that anyone who honestly believes the argument that Emma has been reduced to being Scott's arm adornment hasn't actually been reading Uncanny X-Men (Kieron Gillen's great run in particular). I'll also just leave this nice video here, where Grace Randolph lays down how Mary Sue Jean lacked an actual personality until Morrison came along and gave her one (as a cold b@#ch with a god complex).
The end of Cyclops' and Jean's relationship, Jean's death, and the beginning of Cyclops' and Emma's relationship and their leadership of the X-Men marked the beginning of a new era for the X-Men, and the end of the out-dated era before it.
That was Morrison's intention, the bring the X-Men into the 21st Century and leave behind what no longer worked. Bringing Jean back now would only serve to cheapen the important impact her death had, and it's importance in signaling a new beginning for the X-Men.
i think scott misses jean and maybe if jean comes back scott will lose his darker edge
i think scott hurt jean first
anyways, getting on topic i think emma is the worst leading x-men because with her its what you see is what go get.....she has no depth...i try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt but its hard to relate to her
Regardless of whether the old way the X-Men are better then the new way of the X-Men or visa versa. I think the Mutant community needs to split up and have different directions so they don't have all their eggs in on basket. That way you can have the old, the modern, or some other style.
@ApatheticAvenger: Great vid but the cold bitch part ehh seem to forget that the phoenix was playing havoc with jean,s emotions and she was shutting herself off from them and the people around her or that's how I read it. Agree that jean been the prize girl next door never sat well considering she was the strongest member of the early team imo.
Other then that maybe we should all face the fact that jean emma and scott are less then innocent and should all share a part of the blame in what transpired.
I totally agree with this post. The best thing about Emma Frost is that she's a wild card, you don't know what she'll do or what she's done and you don't know what the characters around her will react to her actions.
I totally agree with this, she's a wild card and every time she does something that seems like a villain it makes you think as a reader that she's been putting up a front but comes around and surprises you once again. I have to say she isn't the BEST X-men leading lady but she isn't the worse either. It's definitely a writers deal. Hell look at Psylocke and the big push she's gotten with Remender and X-Force and now she's leading her own XF in early 2013.
Pretty much many if not any X-women could be a viable candidate dependent on the writer of course.
^^^
True I hope that she get's a writer that can bring some fire back to her character considering how badly she's been writing as of late. A current timeline jean's return would be fun to see with all that she could/would have done as the phoenix but that's a long long long shot.
@ApatheticAvenger said:
@Crimsonlord53 said:
@ApatheticAvenger: Great vid but the cold bitch part ehh seem to forget that the phoenix was playing havoc with jean,s emotions and she was shutting herself off from them and the people around her or that's how I read it. Agree that jean been the prize girl next door never sat well considering she was strongest member of the early team imo.
Other then that maybe we should all face the fact that jean emma and scott are less then innocent and should all share a part of the blame in what transpired.
The Phoenix had everything to do with the bitchiness, but that was the point. Jean appeared to have no real defining personality without the Phoenix, A cold, arrogant demigoddess is better than the boring good girl next door.
Oh most certainly, no one was innocent during Morrison's run. That's what made it so fun and brilliant, flawless characters suck. x]
Do you know Jean at all, I'm just curious. She was heart and soul of the X-Men. She was the mother and sister figure to all the X-Men and the fact that the X-Men haven't fell like a family since she been gone. That tells you something. Saying Jean Grey has no personality without the Phoenix, you could look at Emma Frost character, she has no personality without Cyclops. The fact that she lived in Cyclops shadows for years. Is really shocking. There is more potential in returning Jean grey, then there is with keeping Emma Frost as X-Men leading lady. Emma hasn't done much seen she been X-Men leading lady.
@time said:
@ApatheticAvenger said:
@Crimsonlord53 said:
@ApatheticAvenger: Great vid but the cold bitch part ehh seem to forget that the phoenix was playing havoc with jean,s emotions and she was shutting herself off from them and the people around her or that's how I read it. Agree that jean been the prize girl next door never sat well considering she was strongest member of the early team imo.
Other then that maybe we should all face the fact that jean emma and scott are less then innocent and should all share a part of the blame in what transpired.
The Phoenix had everything to do with the bitchiness, but that was the point. Jean appeared to have no real defining personality without the Phoenix, A cold, arrogant demigoddess is better than the boring good girl next door.
Oh most certainly, no one was innocent during Morrison's run. That's what made it so fun and brilliant, flawless characters suck. x]
Do you know Jean at all, I'm just curious. She was heart and soul of the X-Men. She was the mother and sister figure to all the X-Men and the fact that the X-Men haven't fell like a family since she been gone. That tells you something. Saying Jean Grey has no personality without the Phoenix, you could look at Emma Frost character, she has no personality without Cyclops. The fact that she lived in Cyclops shadows for years. Is really shocking. There is more potential in returning Jean grey, then there is with keeping Emma Frost as X-Men leading lady. Emma hasn't done much seen she been X-Men leading lady.
No, Time.
I used to be a huge Jean Grey fan but after continuous readings of Morrisons Xmen I found myself relating more to this amazing woman brimming with sharp wit and brilliance because she felt real. Emma is certainly more than her blindingly beautiful surface. It's been shown that she is a character with mighty passions and complex pathos. Emma has always felt human. Jean however is a monstrously talented woman with near omnipotent power, which is not nearly as relatable as a woman haunted by her past failings. And while she was the heart and soul of the team I think Xmen lost some of its humanness. It's hard to relate to a character who when even not cosmically endowed is still monumentally powerful. Emma as the leading lady made the Xmen modern and relatable again. The heart of the Xmen needed a new face. And I loved Morrisons Jean she acted the way a character with so much power and moral fiber would behave. I liked that Jean wanted to be Emma and totally disregard her moral standards. And similarly I enjoyed Emma coveting what Jean had. I think both women were great leading ladies. Jean before the Phoenix while the girl next door was still independent, fiery, and very much an example of the modern woman of her time. So I don't think we should condemn Jean for retaining her core personality from her inception. I apologize if I got off subject. Morrisons run was transformative for every character on the team. It proves that with great writing any charcter can be relevant and powerful.
Talking to a friend of mine who's a emma fanboy and he swears that jean fans should thank morrisons for saving jean from the mediocrity that the X men female characters fall into. Starting to think he was right but I won't tell him that.
@Crimsonlord53 said:
Talking to a friend of mine who's a emma fanboy and he swears that jean fans should thank morrisons for saving jean from the mediocrity that the X men female characters fall into. Starting to think he was right but I won't tell him that.
Care to explain why your friend feels that way. If we talking about development, the last time Emma was actually interesting was during Joss Whedon run which about three years ago. A lot of development that has happen to her character, has happen to Jean Grey before.
What should we thank Morrison for. For killing Jean Grey off and ending one of the most popular couples in X-Men history. Morrison was arrogant writer and very naive. He had no understanding of Cyclops and Jean grey marriage. You want to know why, he found them boring and that's why he spend no time on there relationship at all.
I'm interesting to hear what you have to say on topic and why your friend feels that way.
I believe that monkey wears silk, always will be a monkey. Emma "bitch" Frost always will be a flip coin. She need to get back to her villain root because she was a kick-ass. I dont trust her at all since she had a psychic- affair with Cyclops knowing he was a married man to my Goddess Jean Grey, she had an affair too with Namor, paying with the same coins to Cyclops. She is manipulative, traitor, and non- worthy trust mutant that doesn't give a shit who will get hurt when she throw the first punch, an example of that She killed her own sister, no matter how bad was the circuntances, she was her sister. I believe she should be exiled of all X-team. I simply hate her. Shame of her calling herself an High level Telepath, pufffff, Psylocke is more powerful than her in many ways but writers and editors try to make her more powerful than Psylocke because she overexposed her boobiesss! sex sells!
Note: The Jean Grey that will travel to the present doesn't have too much experience but she have more raw power than Emma Bitch. Professor X temporary shut her telepathy power because it matured too soon to handle it. Somehow, she turn on that power in the present. Hellllloooooo, she is Jean Grey, the most powerful X-Man ever, even Death itself respect her.
@time: I,ll try.
Jean died a hero.
Since then Emma,s lost her edge and become a shadow of her former self. Storm has suffered is she the X men 2IC or is that emma is she a goddess a queen or is she an X men who is also a avenger. Rogue was in exile there finding herself jubilee seem,s to have falling down the vampire rabbit hole kitty was lost in space.
The point of his barb is that her "death" has saved jean from years of horrid stories and worse character development that many of the other woman have been a part of.
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