I really don't know why people love to hate Dragon Ball.

They hate it because it's more popular than their favorite obscure weab anime.

Because threads like this never end well.

Because Goku beats Superman.

@life_without_progress: Someone should have "INB4"d this.

Because said feats are typically unquantified.

@full123: shhhh .... *continues fishing*

Here's the thing... they don't.

Because anime and manga are taking bits of the comics market, and some people are afraid that that will, somehow, make their favorite shows or comics... less important? idrk, but its as always, fear of change and everything "new"

wait what how do you know that though

INB4LOCK!

I wish I knew

• Because non-moving pictures on a page and slowed down action in a tv show are impossible to measure.
• Because people make huge assumptions based on a lack of understanding.
• Because inventing a feat based on what something looks like is always a bad idea.

In comics, every so often you're given a feat that's measurable. So Superman benches the weight equivalent of the Earth for 5 days straight without Sunlight. You don't know what his max is really, but you know it's higher than the weight of the Earth. Hulk holds up a mountain that weights 150 billion tons. Hulk punches through an asteroid twice the size of Earth. Flash takes a million people 30 miles away in a microsecond one or two at a time (something like that anyway). Hulk jumps very nearly into orbit. These are all things that come with values that can be adapted and you can say "Flash went THIS fast" or "Hulk's legs moved THIS fast to jump THIS high" or whatever.

ALL comics (and Manga are a type of comic) use visuals and exposition to get across a point of how strong or fast or powerful someone is. but just because something looks quick doesn't mean you can give it a speed, and just because someone lifts something big, doesn't mean you can attribute a strength. Artists aren't that consistent to draw a big rock the same size each time. They just want you to know its a big rock and its heavy. They dont draw sonic booms when someone crosses the sound barrrier, they just draw speed lines so you get the idea it's quick.

Dragonball is littered with fast and strong people, and fans like to assume low and highballs based on how something looks. Yamcha is said to be weak because he's not as powerful as the others, even though the other are ridiculously strong. Others being strong doesn't mean Yamcha is weak. It just means he's not as strong as the rest. He's still strong than the vast vast majority. At the same time, just because Goku is extremely fast doesn't mean that if someone hits him and the speed lines are bigger than his opponent is WAY faster. It only means it was fast compared to what Goku was doing. That's all.

It's the reason I started the Standardise Feats List. To get a range of calculable speed, strength and power feats throughout Dragonball that other people could be based on. Like I just calculated Merenary Tao's arm speed to be 7049m/s, or 15,500mph based on how fast he'd have had to have thrown a pillar for it to travel 2,300km. That means anyone going toe-to-toe with him has that hand speed too.

Highballing and lowballing are generally caused by people who don't care enough to figure it out or dont know how to so just ass-pull a feat. This causes arguments and bitterness and it's why Dragonball has a stigma here. If you think any comic fan, any Thor reader or Flash reader is at all concerned about people buying Dragonball manga affecting the profits of their favourite characters publisher, then you're a fool. People lowball AND highball Dragonball feats because their feats are too open to interpretation. And that's ignoring the rabble of people that insist DBZ characters can beat anyone regardless of their powers.

They trying to be cool and edgy

I don't down play dbz [I like dbz] BUT z tards love 2 claim every single character is a planet buster when that's far from the truth since 90% of the cast hasn't even shown 1/10 of that power also the DBZ fanbase is the worst thing in the history of anything ever oh and superman is better than goku XP [eat me z tards]

Bcuz they r evul

I think the fact that the feats are largely unquantifiable is a valid complaint. However, IMO most of the lowballing (real lowballing not someone who disagrees with yamcha being a star buster) is rooted elsewhere.

The dragon ball franchise has a massive fan base. All sorts of people come together on forums like comicvine. Including less mature, stubborn fans. The "faster than time" type. A lot of comic fans can get understandably irritated by this. In return, some of the more immature comic users will lowball with something like the 4 galaxies argument.

Because most of the feats people use to "prove" their arguments are often either unquantifiable or taken out of context, e.g. Saiyan Saga characters are light speed due to Piccolo's moon busting feat, SSJG Goku is universal+ because of his shared feat with Beerus, and last, but certainly not least, Freeza is a star buster since he blew up a planet with 10× the gravity of earth in his first form.

no the truth is that the dbz fanboys overplay feats while others bring it back to what it should be. I've seen some fans get so worked up by a feat and act like nobody in fiction has done such things while I can name plenty of characters who have produced the same or similar actions with less effort.

Okay so who's alt made this thread?

The Shockwaves are unquantifiable.

Because this is Vine.

Because Goku stomps Superman :)

you see the thing is every other franchise not dc or marvel gets downplayed here by some people

i honestly haven't read that argument at all

@kyrees: There was a thread made for it about a year ago, and I've seen it mentioned in various other threads as well.

Because fanboys wank it. There's a balance to everything

Do people think Goku is faster than time?

This

I tend to lowball feats because in some cases (specifically the universal clash between Goku and Beerus) I honestly don't believe that feat makes either one universal. Beerus at 100% might be, but Goku is far from it. Yet, when I make an argument for that I tend to get jumped on by people insisting that the shockwaves make Goku universal. I end up having to debate four or five people at once. I repeat myself over and over again and it gets old.

The butthurt I've seen over one simple disagreement is what's turned me off of the series, too. I've tried to stay interested, and I'll likely try again. DBZ was a big, important part of my childhood and I don't want to just abandon it. It just gets hard when you've got a ton of DBZ fans breathing down your neck because you don't think Goku is a universe buster. Most of it can be attributed to the Superman vs Goku debate, too. I'm pretty sure that even Toei got butthurt over that Death Battle.

'I honestly don't believe that feat makes either one universal. Beerus at 100% might be'

There shouldn't be a debate for this, it's generally accepted on here and Kanzenshuu that Beerus is at least Universal, not even at %100. We've yet to see an actual %100 Beerus, besides his claim when he nullified the blast. What is there to debate, exactly, when there's over several sources confirming Beerus to be Universal.

'The butthurt I've seen over one simple disagreement is what's turned me off of the series, too.'

Honestly, if the butthurt is what turns you off from the series, maybe you weren't really invested into the series like you claim to be. Unless you're stating the fanbase is what keeps you from actually participating in debates on this site, then...

'It just gets hard when you've got a ton of DBZ fans breathing down your neck because you don't think Goku is a universe buster. '

It's not hard at all to simply just look, laugh, and scroll past a few rabid fans who are preaching to your their beliefs on whether or not Goku can move faster than time and the other ridiculous claims some have tried to argue. Try debating against Pre-52 Wally West, and Prep-time Batman fans... now that is a real headache!

On a side note, DBZ hasn't been so bad lately (ignoring the Faster than Time arguments), especially if you read, or were at least around the site over several years ago when there was even more speculation on whether or not Goku was a supposed Multi-Solar System buster.

@deathmetal: because dragon ball fans make up feats like saying Buu is galaxy level or all dragon ball characters are mftl. Some people actually downplay dragon ball though.

For the most part dragon ball z characters tend to at least be massively hypersonic moon busters, and everyone stronger than Frieza is a planet buster.

@zzagirl: It's hard for you to gauge how invested I was in the series when you don't know me personally and didn't grow up with me. Let's look at this differently, though. Check the comments on this one rather than just watching it on the site. Here's a video of a guy who likes Superman and thinks he's the strongest super hero. That's his opinion and he points that out at the beginning of the video. He wasn't aiming to pick a fight with anyone. He was just making something to appreciate Superman.

See all the comments coming from people who watched a video by a guy named Seththeprogrammer? One guy makes a video stating why he likes this character and thinks he's the strongest and the DB fanbase jumps on him. Why? Seth and the dude he made that video with were pretty arrogant in the comments of their own video. That attitude left a bad taste in my mouth, as did the thumbnail they used. It was meant solely to antagonize. Why? Most of the debates I've had over Goku being universal have been on reddit, admittedly. I'm using that site less lately, for a number of reasons. I've had a few on Comicvine though, especially right after the universal shockwaves episode. I'm fine with Beerus being universal, but that can only be drawn from his nullification feat at the end of his fight with Goku. The shockwaves, taken on their own merit, don't make either of them even planetary.

Your last two paragraphs are right on the money, though. I sometimes take this stuff too personally and I know I shouldn't. I'm also aware that it's a vocal minority in the DB community who act like that, and it's stupid of me to be a jerk online about it. I'm gonna lay at least partial blame for that on the U.S. election messing with my state of mind. It was super cancerous. Joking. I'll take the full blame but the election was still cancer.

Like a lot of folks, I can get stupid about things I'm passionate about sometimes. It's my fault and I'm working on it. I think I'm getting better, too. The fact that I know I'm being stupid is why I'm gonna keep trying to watch and enjoy DBS. It's also partially why I've started to post on WWW less lately. The less I overthink the WWW aspect of things the better off I am, I think. DB is about fun, as all fiction is supposed to be. When stupid people like me, or fans of Seththeprogrammer, take it too far the fun is sucked out. That's my big self reflection for the night. I'm gonna go back to hatching Pokémon eggs. Take care :)

It's hard for you to gauge how invested I was in the series when you don't know me personally and didn't grow up with me.

Your previous comment suggested you weren't as invested as you make yourself out to be. My apologies for the assumption.

See all the comments coming from people who watched a video by a guy named Seththeprogrammer? One guy makes a video stating why he likes this character and thinks he's the strongest and the DB fanbase jumps on him. Why? Seth and the dude he made that video with were pretty arrogant in the comments of their own video.

You can search up the Injustice Trailer where Superman and Black Adam face off, and you'll find a very extensive, fought out argument on why Superman is superior to Goku. This happens with every Superman/Goku video that reaches a certain number of views, this video makes it no different. Worse, the video you're sharing with me is from Youtube. You can thank DeathBattle for making such horrid videos (specifically the Goku v Superman ones), which caused an uproar on both sides in the Youtube community, specifically.

Why? Most of the debates I've had over Goku being universal have been on reddit, admittedly. I'm using that site less lately, for a number of reasons. I've had a few on Comicvine though, especially right after the universal shockwaves episode. I'm fine with Beerus being universal, but that can only be drawn from his nullification feat at the end of his fight with Goku.

Vados and Whis' statements also hold merit as well.

Like a lot of folks, I can get stupid about things I'm passionate about sometimes. It's my fault and I'm working on it. I think I'm getting better, too. The fact that I know I'm being stupid is why I'm gonna keep trying to watch and enjoy DBS. It's also partially why I've started to post on WWW less lately. The less I overthink the WWW aspect of things the better off I am, I think. DB is about fun, as all fiction is supposed to be. When stupid people like me, or fans of Seththeprogrammer, take it too far the fun is sucked out. That's my big self reflection for the night. I'm gonna go back to hatching Pokémon eggs. Take care :)

Very understandable. You take care as well.

Out of fans mouth most DBZ feats are speculation and not facts.

That's basically it.

It's the Internet and this is CV. Everyone makes a big deal out of everything.

The worst thing lowballers came up with is split durability argument. If this was true Frieza should die from genki dama that has enough force to squash a planet.

Because 99.999999999% of those feats are fan made bullshit

@le0nhart:

And 100% of GT multipliers are fanmade BS

Don't know why you're mad about GT, lol

@le0nhart:

@le0nhart:

Same reason your mad about Super beating them. Unless that isn't why you brought up filler in my other thread?

@johncena69swag: Why is faster than time regarded as some type of wank?

I'm sure anybody that said this simply means that Goku's speed increased to the point where time skip did not affect on. My problems with down players is they know all too well what something means but play silly word games and say "LOL he said faster than time that makes no sense". Everyone knows faster than time is nonsense but the context of the feat is overlooked

Second why is "faster than time" a DB insult. Speed in comics distorts time at ridiculous and almost comical levels and is accepted

Case in point. According to comic vine Flash and Zoom solo the entirety of fiction.

But when Goku increases his speed to the point time is being played with its just "lul you think Goku is a faster than time universe buster".

If the same feats that Goku did was applied to a new speedster in DC he would be wrecking battle forums. It's just a double standard that is clear. Yes people wank DragonBall but it never seems to be Ill intended.

because everybody hates you dragon ball fanboys, you invade every discussion with you obsessive need to prove you're the strongest.

it's akira toyirami or whatever his name is fault, cause he doesnt clarify on much and he has alot of weird scenes. like them failing to lift weights and shit. its unbecoming fighters of their pedigree. also how can they be lightspeed when it takes em orever to roam planets. beerus and whis not withstanding

Because anime is stupid.

people often throw shots at or make fun of things they can't understand or are afraid of.

Actually that's incorrect everyone always wank or highball DBZ characters.

I saw some people claiming chiaotzu can solo Lord Boros, who kicked saitama to the moon " TO THE MOON " and people think chiaotzu solos him..

People that make these fanboy speculation claims are simple minded and don't have the ability to imagine a fight between 2 opposing rivals

So how they solve that problem is to find there " level of power " ( for example planet level or star level ) and they compare theme with both opponents and decides who wins by looking at the higher level of power.

@darkforce: OPM is not a good example. People on the fanbase still believe Saitama has infinite power, that Boros is stronger than Hulk or that lightspeed flash and everyone faster than him are ftl.