So Grayson is done working for Spyral?

@rabumalal: not in the main timeline.

Yep. They worked together far better than Bruce and Damian did.

If the Bat Family is so smart how come they didn't know he was alive?

Because being smart equates to knowing everything right?

always a plan in the shadows with Bruce

@outside_85: I dunno. Probably to give someone for Jason to care about.

The thing is that not even the writers seem to know what history Tim and Jason have with Dick (in Tims case they seem not even to know what his history with Bruce is), and instead of establishing something they, approach this problem by minimising their interaction. If they handle it like this in BRE this series will again be a disappointment for me.

Jason didn't respect them enough to let them know when HE returned from the dead. And took on the identity of Red Hood as a **** you to Bruce for his failure concerning the Joker and has yet to think twice about making that who he is. I don't know why it's surprising that people feel going from that to brotherly love is jarring.

And not only have Jason's own feeling changed but he completely expects them to trust him as a brother without any reservation whatsoever too, thus being upset when Bruce and Dick don't contact him with consistent updates on what operations they're running.

According to most. Maybe fool one member, but all of them? World's greatest detective, my ass... lol

Because its not like Bruce has fooled these people before, or they've been outsmarted by others before right? No one in the Bat Family is as smart or resourceful as Bruce. Therefore if he can't manage to fool them that kind of ruins the entire point., especially when he's the one that has the title World's Greatest Detective.

They are bringing up Death of the Family here.

Now Jason is not the same as in Under the Hood (tho the retconned version of Under the Hood presents an even more morally ambigious version of Jason as it was Nightwing that interrupted Red Hood rather then Red Hood definitely refraining from killing Batman), but he was still killing tons of people at the start of nu52. When he decided to kill a little less, there's no indication that he phoned up Bruce and apologised for his behaviour and told him he'd be more reliable from there on. No. The burden is placed on Bruce to keep track of Jason and his behavior AND based on that behaviour he's expected to reach out confide in him anything and everything he has to share about the Joker investigation. When this did not happen Jason feels justified in calling Bruce out. And now later Dick following Bruce's plans rather then telling Jason he doesn't have to come to any funeral cause he ain't dead.

What does Death of the Family have to do with anything?

We've actually seen Jason go out of his way to not kill people, specifically when he's dealing with members of the Bat Family. Rubber bullets have been a weapon of choice for him for a while now. Sure, it's not the same as him picking up the phone or visiting the cave to apologize as you're saying, but it is a major step from where he was before. In term of the Joker entering the cave however: For one, I think that entire situation was overblown. It was made very clear by Bruce that the reason he didn't tell any of his family members was because he personally didn't THINK that the Joker had ever gotten into the cave, and he fully detailed all the reasons why. If you don't think something is true you therefore won't think it's important, so you're therefore not going to ever logically think there's a reason you should mention the incident to anyone else. Therefore, I don't think he was wrong to not tell ANYONE about the card, not just Jason, and not because of how close he was with any of them or because of how any of them acted.

information about the Joker, and also stupidly refusing to accept anyone else's help, it was something that directly involved and effected Jason.

Jason however was mad about the card for the very same reasons that everyone else was, which is that if Joker HAD gotten into the cave that places all of them in danger. And if that IS the case, then yes, Bruce should absolutely tell Jason, and Tim, and Dick, and everyone else. Again, it has nothing to do with being close with anyone, it has to do with the fact that it places them in danger.

Similar to the above, Jason is mad at Dick for the exact same reason that everyone else is, because someone he trusted lied to him about a major issue, which was the person in question being dead. For one, this is an emotional reaction that isn't based around cold hard logic. So attempting to use the latter to understand the former is already going to have problems. What's more, it again doesn't require Jason and Dick to be best friends for him to be mad that his ally lied to him about being dead. Faking your death is a jerk thing to do regardless of the reason, plain and simple. Then doing it to a person whose actially been dead isn't going to make that person react in a good way.

But at the end of the day, either it works for you or it doesn't, just like with the Red Hood/Arsenal comic, Batman Eternal, or Batman Inc. I thought that the reactions of everyone in this was fairly spot on. Jason was angry and lashed out, Tim is hurt and tries to use logic, Barbara is disappointed, and Damian is just overjoyed and jokes around. For me, this was a rare time where we have the family appearing in the same story and I think everyone and everything is perfect in terms of characterization. (Minus Tim and Jason again being "those two guys")

Jason had even more right to be mad than the rest, since the Joker used this knowledge in the new 52 to set him up for his death.

Succinct summary of the New 52 Batfamily.

Not sure if Jason, or anyone based on shown conversations, ever put that together. We as readers saw that Joker basically manipulated Jason's entire life, and so obviously knew full well who these people were. However, that's again something we as readers see Joker doing. Not something that Bruce is ever shown discovering. Heck, I don't even think Bruce ever learns the full details on how Jason dies, beyond the fact that the Joker somehow got a hold of him and killed him.

@nathaniel_christopher: iirc the Joker tells it Jason in his tie-in to "Death of the Family", what later leads to Jason letting his memory get erased.

Got it. If all the tie-ins were written better I really would consider buying the collected edition.

I think I know who you're talking about (Tzitzimine) and I highly doubt he's a Lobdell account since the user has a tumblr account by the same name and has a myriad of interests besides defending Lobdell. While I disagree with his opinions on Scott Lobdell and RHATO and RH/A, I would refrain from labeling someone as a writer user/troll account without any sort of legitimate proof.

Don't know if he's Lobdell or not (Don't really care either way) but he also has an account on Scansdaily.

In fact i've always assumed that most people had multiple different accounts for comic-based forums and such, but just used different names, with him being one of the few that uses the same name everywhere.

The user also has an account on CBR and I've seen his name on Disqus. One would think that if a writer wanted to create troll accounts on message boards in an attempt to boost their reputation...they would create more than one account. I'm not a fan of Scott Lobdell's writing (if one could call it that), but I wouldn't label those who support him as trolls. It's also important to point out that the user's support for Lobdell seems to be focused on his writing of Jason Todd, not the Teen Titans, Doomed, Superman or his other works in the new 52.

Besides, I have a sneaky suspicion that there's a Dick Grayson fan on CV who has created multiple accounts to either prop up Grayson or bash Scott Lobdell and Jason Todd.

Man where do people find the time? LOL I can barely juggle being on this forum, a Star Wars forum (Which I haven't been on in like a month, mostly due to falling behind on my reading), an anime forum, and one other forum, not counting casual browing of other sites and then real life activities (Like the star wars reading i'm behind on lol)

If Lobdell had an secret account he would be probably act a little bit more subtle than Tzitzimine.

@aahz: Lobdell doesn't have a secret account to my knowledge, I know he has a public one as he used to sometimes come on the CV boards and has even been allowed by the CV staff to write articles promoting someone else's work or Kickstarter. But Lobdell isn't exactly the most subtle guy I've seen post on here either.

@flash1812: Lol.

Rationalise why Jason's upset, as you like. It still banks on the idea that Batman, who works with the government and the Gotham PD, should have the Outlaws' phonenumber and be able to have frank discussion with them at any time. And let's try to keep in mind what "Red Hood" stands for, Batman greatest mistake, the guy he ought to have killed instead of letting the Joker be born, that's what Jason build himself around, which he is sticking too (because writers don't feel like coming up with a new name). And I prefer it when characters, especially extreme one's like Batman stand for what they believe in. "Jason's using guns and kills people, this is a problem for me." and "I believe the criminals that are clearly never gonna change or stay imprisoned for very long ought to be handled with lethal force, deal with it." Instead we get "We have no problem with how we respectively deal with things, so long as Jason doesn't use lethal force right in front of me. The most important thing is that we find a way to come together and work as a family." Blegh.

And Jason may have been dead a day or two longer then Dick, he came back and didn't tell anyone for years too. That he never even to himself feels remorse for that should SAY something about his character, given that it's such a cornerstone of what makes Jason Jason these days. Instead his views on things are whatever they need to be for the comic at hand. We are getting the most vanilla version for Jason Todd possible, who only still uses guns cause they make a distinct visual next to the other Bat-family weapons.

Neither of those is what Batman stands for or believes in.

Them calling themselves Outlaws doesn't really mean anything when by the end of the series they're not much different from any other team of superheroes, minus of course the fact that all teams have different members. They could call themselves the Killers if they wanted to, unless they're going around doing nothing but killing people then it wouldn't really matter. Jason, Roy, and Kori weren't doing that and Jason and Roy aren't doing that now. A major character development in fact was that Jason realized, as has already been pointed out, that he didn't even enjoy killing anymore.

The fact that he's willing to call Dick his brother, let bygones be bygones with Tim, acknowledge how important Bruce is to him, and that he cares about Damian, all in the present, says more about him now than his actions in the past. That's like hanging onto the fact that Bruce has been a complete jerk numerous times in the past and then using that to influence his entire character. Its called development and moving on.

I also don't have to rationalize why Jason's upset, because it's explained for you in the issue (Along with why everyone else is upset) and lines up with numerous other instances we've seen previously. Jason Todd now isn't the person he was in Under the Hood or Battle for the Cowl. He cares about the members of the Bat Family. Deal with it or stop following the character, because its unlikely that the writers are going to drop that trait that's been built up since the reboot anytime soon.

The latter was in reference to Jason. And the not killing rule IS something I feel Batman should feel strongly about, or otherwise not follow himself. Batman shouldn't be wishywashy about his beliefs concerning crimefighting at any rate.

The Outlaws thing did mean something at very beginning of series at least, when quite a few people died. And Jason inner revelations shouldn't immediately translate into acknowledgement of that change of heart on Dick and Bruce's behalf.

And we ARE hanging onto the fact that Bruce can be a complete jerk. It's brought back numerous time, it will come back again in future. It's what makes the current storyline with Alfred as well as the one in Batman and Robin Eternal possible. Being a believable as a jerk is one of things that make Batman so popular, actually.

And yes, I know that these developments are happening. What I'm saying is development towards blandly being on good terms with everyone as opposed to having different opinions about different characters is not positive development in my book.

Under the Hood was development at the time too. He wasn't just a former Robin because of it. Now he is former Robin, Jason Todd. Goes by Red Hood, uses guns but the developments that caused him to take up either of those no longer inform his character in any shape or form. Great.

He isn't. He specifically got on Jason's case during the events for Under the Hood because Jason was killing. Afterwards throughout the events leading up to R.I.P. Batman wasn't at any point shown to condone Jason's actions, and did what he could (Short of organizing a manhunt and ignoring Gotham to specifically focus on Jason) to stop Jason. Afterwards, he has Jason join Batman Inc, which leads to their relationship beginning to mend, and everything since the New 52 has been an extension of that. Hence Jason specifically using rubber bullets when around the Bat Family.

It's not the beginning of the series anymore, so that's irrelevant. It's not just an inner revelation on Jason's part, its also numerous outer actions that show he isn't the same person and that he's decided to stick to that revelation.

I see little problem with him being on decent terms with anyone. As I argued previously in this thread, being on good terms with someone doesn't mean you and that person agree on everything, or never argue, or even that you're best buddies (Anyone who thinks that has zero experience with actual relationships with other people) Death of the Family was all about the family working together as Joker tore them apart, which they did just fine, yet at no point was it implied that Jason Todd was super-duper-close to anyone else. Right now you had him nearly calling Dick his brother, yet brothers fight and argue, which is exactly what happened here, and really is what the Robins as a collective tend to do more than anything else.

Same goes for pretty much everyone else in the Bat Family, including Bruce, which is a direct result of the reboot.