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    Dick Grayson

    Character » Dick Grayson appears in 9431 issues.

    As the first Robin, Dick Grayson was the most famous sidekick in comic book history. As he ventured forth on his own, he formed the Teen Titans and became their leader. When the boy became a man, he became the independent hero known as Nightwing.

    Jason Todd and Barbara Gordon and why it is NOT ok.

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    graysonofgotham

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    I want to start by saying I am not a new 52 hater by any means. I love a lot of it and I have been a fan of what they have done with (my favorite character) Dick Grayson thus far. However in Batman: Eternal they have been obviously building towards a Jason Todd and Barbara Gordon relationship and I am completely against it. I think it is a slap in the face to Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon and their respective fan bases. I am not saying Babs or Dick aren't or shouldn't be allowed to be with anyone else but for Babs and Todd to become a thing is just cheap. Jason already got Dicks close friend(Roy Harper) and former girlfriend(Starfire) in the New 52 but for Todd to now get Dick Grayson's true love in my opinion and many others is infuriating. I like Jason Todd but he is becoming a watered down emo Dick Grayson rip off and I hate it. To put those two together is a bad move and I hope Barbara Gordon and Dick Grayson's fans speak out against it.

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    youknowwhattodo

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    #2  Edited By youknowwhattodo

    A Jason Todd and Barbara Gordon romance is one of those few pairings where it's hard to see any good coming out of it, even if (and I believe this to be the case if it were to happen) it was to be a short term fling. It's not just a slap in the face to Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon, it's also a slap in the face to Jason Todd and his respective fan base. I don't know what it is with DC, but they have this obsession with trying to make Jason as close to Dick Grayson as possible. When Jason was first created, he was considered a rip-off of Dick Grayson and then the plan for Infinite Crisis was for Dick Grayson to die and Jason Todd to become Nightwing. Then in the new 52, they give him friends that were Dick's instead of having Jason develop relationships that are unique to him. While there are many that give praise to DC for giving Jason a sense of direction in the new 52, it's becoming abundantly clear, that direction is to become Dick Grayson with a smirk and it is a complete waste of a character. I am going to start calling Jason Todd, Grayson Todd out of sheer frustration to what they are doing to a character with a lot of potential.

    We want Jason Todd not Grayson Todd.

    On a happier note, if anyone hasn't checked the preview for Grayson #3, you should, it has the greatest title page in comic book history.

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    Nathaniel_Christopher

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    Jason Todd and Barbara Gordon being together is just as sick to me as Jason and Talia being together, or Bruce and Barbara being together. It's only made worse in this instance by the fact that Jason's already gained relationships with Roy and Kori, two of them formerly being some of Dick's best friends, and one an extremely strong candidate for the love of his life. If the Joker hadn't blown it up and i'd think Jason was going to take Haley's Circus next.

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    entropy_aegis

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    Jason Todd the troll wonder lol.

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    ScouterV

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    Jason Todd a.k.a The Red Hood a.k.a Mr. Steal-ya-Girl.

    Obviously, this is just a very slick way of making it known that Jasons' game is indeed, tighter than the rest of the Family.

    And it's been said on several occasions--although this is a fitting one as well--that you can't simply throw salt on the player. He merely follows the rules set before him to the best of his abilities.

    Your true gripe, lies within that which most people lose--The Game.

    Just Saiyan, anyway.

    But that's probably none of my business.

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    daredevil21134

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    Blame the New 52.Dick and Babs don 't have the same history as before,but as a Jason fan I rather him date someone else

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    Outside_85

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    As if the Dick/Babs relationship was anything to write home about. Seriously, what is the appeal in that coupling?

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    daredevil21134

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    #8  Edited By daredevil21134

    @outside_85 said:

    As if the Dick/Babs relationship was anything to write home about. Seriously, what is the appeal in that coupling?

    Batman the animated series lol,I actually think it's one of Dick's worst relationships

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    Gizmorino

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    Jason is taking people that belongs to my man dick, it should stop if not d.c will jason hated for no good reason.

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    Transformers1024

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    Might as well start calling him Red Wing or Night Hood since he's practically becoming Dick Grayson.

    ---> Growing a brotherly relationship with Tim Drake

    ---> Best friends with Starfire and Arsenal

    ---> Jason and Barbara potentially dating

    Notice how that is all happening while Jason is being accepted back into the BatFamily? Now let's look at Dick Grayson for a moment...

    ---> Joker seemingly taken everything that was important to him (Halys Circus)

    ---> Currently cut off from the BatFamily and has to hide from the rest of the world (Bit of a...loner if you ask me...)

    ---> Working as a Spy for some top secret government agency - oh and carrying guns now

    ---> Currently "dead"...

    It seems like Jason is becoming Dick, and Dick is becoming Jason.

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    Nathaniel_Christopher

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    @outside_85 said:

    As if the Dick/Babs relationship was anything to write home about. Seriously, what is the appeal in that coupling?

    Batman the animated series lol,I actually think it's one of Dick's worst relationships

    Yes. That's what the majority of fans based their liking for the pairing around, which I can't necessarily argue against, because I thought they were solid in that show and had potential, and what's more my liking for comics started with that show. I've just since moved beyond it and don't expect every little thing to be the same. Though, the pairing did have some steam and history Pre-Flashpoint. It just wasn't the same as what happened between them in BTAS. Dick had even proposed to Barbara right before Infinite Crisis.

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    daredevil21134

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    #12  Edited By daredevil21134

    @nathaniel_christopher: I never really liked him with Babs,I always preferred him with Kory.I thought Babs treated him like crap a lot of the times

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    Outside_85

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    @daredevil21134 said:

    @outside_85 said:

    As if the Dick/Babs relationship was anything to write home about. Seriously, what is the appeal in that coupling?

    Batman the animated series lol,I actually think it's one of Dick's worst relationships

    Yes. That's what the majority of fans based their liking for the pairing around, which I can't necessarily argue against, because I thought they were solid in that show and had potential, and what's more my liking for comics started with that show. I've just since moved beyond it and don't expect every little thing to be the same. Though, the pairing did have some steam and history Pre-Flashpoint. It just wasn't the same as what happened between them in BTAS. Dick had even proposed to Barbara right before Infinite Crisis.

    Problem with BTAS is that it's canon eventually lead to Bruce and Barbara... which I can't even get my head around how that came about.

    Regarding Dick/Babs, I suppose it's fine to like the coupling because of how it was in BTAS. But I just wonder if thats really the way to go considering the comic versions acted more like brother and sister?

    Btw, think Dick has the worst luck when it comes to marriage. Infinite Crisis practically voided that proposal, and the one to Starfire ended up with Raven showing up and blowing the priest to kingdom come before the 'I do's'.

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    SilverPool

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    Might as well start calling him Red Wing or Night Hood since he's practically becoming Dick Grayson.

    ---> Growing a brotherly relationship with Tim Drake

    ---> Best friends with Starfire and Arsenal

    ---> Jason and Barbara potentially dating

    Notice how that is all happening while Jason is being accepted back into the BatFamily? Now let's look at Dick Grayson for a moment...

    ---> Joker seemingly taken everything that was important to him (Halys Circus)

    ---> Currently cut off from the BatFamily and has to hide from the rest of the world (Bit of a...loner if you ask me...)

    ---> Working as a Spy for some top secret government agency - oh and carrying guns now

    ---> Currently "dead"...

    It seems like Jason is becoming Dick, and Dick is becoming Jason.

    Conclusion: Jason is a Dick

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    midnightdragon18

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    So the only reason clear reason i've seen to people say Jay/Babs can't work is because Jason is getting leftovers, sloppy seconds, grayson clone. But Dick/Babs never happened in the 52, soooo.

    Is it really that hard to believe that a teenage boy developed a crush on his super hot childhood partner, in a skin tight costume ?

    I know people hate Dick/Jason Comparison, but Dick liked Babs from his robin days

    isn't it plausible that Jason does too ? I mean she is a super hot girl in a skin tight costume.

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    youknowwhattodo

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    #16  Edited By youknowwhattodo

    @outside_85 said:

    As if the Dick/Babs relationship was anything to write home about. Seriously, what is the appeal in that coupling?

    I do think that is an overrated pairing, Dick/Kori meant more to each other and comics than Dick/Babs. However, I still think that a potential Jason/Babs is doing more harm than good to a Jason character that mind you quite a bit of people think should have stayed dead. The main problem that I have with what DC is apparantely trying to set up is that since the new 52 began, Jason Todd has basically been Dick Grayson with a smirk and this is especially true during Batman Eternal and he hasn't really carved a unique mark on the DCU since the reboot. Hooking up with Babs won't help.

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    midnightdragon18

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    No one is going to address my points ?

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    captain_batman_FTW

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    I like the idea of it, and I hope it happens! I don't know why, but I want it. Also, Jason did call her cute in batman eternal #25. Lol

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    MakkyD

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    @midnightdragon18: Dick and Babs have been shown to have going out in flashbacks. Though, if I remember I don't think it ended well anyway.

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    Nathaniel_Christopher

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    @outside_85 said:

    @nathaniel_christopher said:

    @daredevil21134 said:

    @outside_85 said:

    As if the Dick/Babs relationship was anything to write home about. Seriously, what is the appeal in that coupling?

    Batman the animated series lol,I actually think it's one of Dick's worst relationships

    Yes. That's what the majority of fans based their liking for the pairing around, which I can't necessarily argue against, because I thought they were solid in that show and had potential, and what's more my liking for comics started with that show. I've just since moved beyond it and don't expect every little thing to be the same. Though, the pairing did have some steam and history Pre-Flashpoint. It just wasn't the same as what happened between them in BTAS. Dick had even proposed to Barbara right before Infinite Crisis.

    Problem with BTAS is that it's canon eventually lead to Bruce and Barbara... which I can't even get my head around how that came about.

    Regarding Dick/Babs, I suppose it's fine to like the coupling because of how it was in BTAS. But I just wonder if thats really the way to go considering the comic versions acted more like brother and sister?

    Btw, think Dick has the worst luck when it comes to marriage. Infinite Crisis practically voided that proposal, and the one to Starfire ended up with Raven showing up and blowing the priest to kingdom come before the 'I do's'.

    I don't think one should necessarily look at one work (In this case BTAS) and assume the same people will or need to have the exact same relationship in another medium, however I wouldn't really say Dick and Babs acted like brother and sister in the comics. Even though they never had a relationship until later years, after Dick was Nightwing and such, there was flirting going on between them.

    So it definitely wasn't written to the same extent that Dick/Kori was, because Dick quite simply didn't actually work with Barbara all that often when he was Robin, but i'd say an attraction was always there.

    Dick's luck in marriage is pretty much the same as Bruce's lol Status Quo is God after all.

    @midnightdragon18 In terms of Dick/Barbara never happening in the New 52, no, that's fairly wrong. Just like Dick and Kori, Dick and Barbara have had some form of relationship that goes beyond friends, and both fully acknowledged their feelings for the other.

    They note that the timing always seems to be wrong for them and ponder over whether they should try again, and even when it's clear they can't because of different priorities at the time, they clearly care deeply about one another. Heck, Dick asks Barbara to go to another city with him, which is a fairly major step to take in any relationship. And we also see that just like Pre-Flashpoint, the hints to the relationship were still there between them as Robin and Batgirl. Dick/Barbara hasn't been fully shown in the New 52, just like Dick/Kori hasn't been, but they've been together to some extent, and have made it clear to the other that the feelings still exist in the present day. That's a major reason why Jason and Barbara shouldn't be together.

    There's also a certain amount of squick that comes with the idea of a younger brother dating his older brother's ex-lover. It's understandable why Jason would be attracted to Barbara, but not so understandable why Barbara would be attracted to him, and Jason's past actions against the Bat Family, plus his role again as Dick's younger sibling I think would turn her off the idea. And at the same time, besides the physical, I don't see why Jason would want to pursue a relationship with her either.

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    kidchipotle

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    LOL

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    graysonofgotham

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    #22  Edited By graysonofgotham

    I think this will hurt Jason's growth as a character and it wont help Batgirl much either. She is gonna be young, single, and less dark in her book with her new creative team and dragging Todd in to that book just doesn't fit. As I said I love Babs and I like Jason Todd but it is just a bad mix. Jason needs to be his own man and form his on relationships. I wish they would get rid of Red Hood and the Outlaws and give Jason a Red Hood solo book and have it edited by the Bat office. Jason needs to be allowed to grow and have his own stories. As it stands Jason Todd was Robin AFTER Dick Grayson. Jason was on a team with Starfire and Roy Harper AFTER Dick Grayson and now maybe in a relationship with Barbara Gordon AFTER Dick Grayson. It is lazy writing plain and simple. Barbara Gordon deserves better, Jason Todd deserves better, and Dick Grayson deserves better. They are three amazing characters with unlimited potential and they deserve to have said potential utilized and to be treat with respect.

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    Nathaniel_Christopher

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    I think this will hurt Jason's growth as a character and it wont help Batgirl much either. She is gonna be a young, single, and less dark in her book with her new creative team and dragging Todd in to that book just doesn't fit. As I said I love Babs and I like Jason Todd but it is just a bad mix. Jason needs to be his own man and form his on relationships. I wish they would get rid of Red Hood and the Outlaws and give Jason a Red Hood solo book and have it edited by the Bat office. Jason needs to be allowed to grow and have his own stories. As it stands Jason Todd was Robin AFTER Dick Grayson. Jason was on a team with Starfire and Roy Harper After Dick Grayson and now maybe in a relationship with Barbara Gordon AFTER Dick Grayson. It is lazy writing plan and simple. Barbara Gordon deserves better, Jason Todd deserves better, and Dick Grayson deserves better. They are three amazing characters with unlimited potential and they deserve to have said potential utilized and to be treat with respect.

    What's more, let's all be honest with ourselves here: Dick Grayson's going to be coming back eventually. Whether it's as Nightwing, Redbird, Robin, or the freaking Masked Avenger, he won't be with Spyral forever. The rest of the Bat Family will once more learn of his existence. There'll be some hard feelings and arguments, but they'll all get over it. Barbara Gordon is and always has been one of Dick's main love interests, it's already been shown in the New 52 so far, so I don't see why it wouldn't continue to happen Post-Dick's Return. Meaning that there's no long term future for Jason and Barbara if they were to start a relationship. As you said, they don't even have the same type of moods to the way their books are written, so they really can't interact all that much, or constantly be popping up in the other's story's. I'd there have to wonder, what's the point? Why not use someone else that actually fits Jason, or just be a little original and create someone that does, with a new interesting backstory that we've never seen before.

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    graysonofgotham

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    #24  Edited By graysonofgotham

    @richardjohngrayson said:

    I think this will hurt Jason's growth as a character and it wont help Batgirl much either. She is gonna be a young, single, and less dark in her book with her new creative team and dragging Todd in to that book just doesn't fit. As I said I love Babs and I like Jason Todd but it is just a bad mix. Jason needs to be his own man and form his on relationships. I wish they would get rid of Red Hood and the Outlaws and give Jason a Red Hood solo book and have it edited by the Bat office. Jason needs to be allowed to grow and have his own stories. As it stands Jason Todd was Robin AFTER Dick Grayson. Jason was on a team with Starfire and Roy Harper After Dick Grayson and now maybe in a relationship with Barbara Gordon AFTER Dick Grayson. It is lazy writing plan and simple. Barbara Gordon deserves better, Jason Todd deserves better, and Dick Grayson deserves better. They are three amazing characters with unlimited potential and they deserve to have said potential utilized and to be treat with respect.

    What's more, let's all be honest with ourselves here: Dick Grayson's going to be coming back eventually. Whether it's as Nightwing, Redbird, Robin, or the freaking Masked Avenger, he won't be with Spyral forever. The rest of the Bat Family will once more learn of his existence. There'll be some hard feelings and arguments, but they'll all get over it. Barbara Gordon is and always has been one of Dick's main love interests, it's already been shown in the New 52 so far, so I don't see why it wouldn't continue to happen Post-Dick's Return. Meaning that there's no long term future for Jason and Barbara if they were to start a relationship. As you said, they don't even have the same type of moods to the way their books are written, so they really can't interact all that much, or constantly be popping up in the other's story's. I'd there have to wonder, what's the point? Why not use someone else that actually fits Jason, or just be a little original and create someone that does, with a new interesting backstory that we've never seen before.

    Exactly. Harper Row would be a good fit for Jason in my opinion. She is a really smart bad ass punk rock chick and he is the rebel without a cause. It makes way more sense. Red Robin and Harper may have been flirting but with Spoiler back in the picture it makes more sense for her and Tim to get together.

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    redwingx

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    #25  Edited By redwingx

    Dick is also becoming Jason and...

    Helena is Dick's true love!

    No Caption Provided

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    graysonofgotham

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    #26  Edited By graysonofgotham

    @redwingx: I don't hate Grayson: Futures End at all. It was great. I think you missed the point of why I have a problem with Todd and Gordon. It has nothing to do with me thinking Barbara or Dick should never be with anyone else. I think I stated that pretty clearly.

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    ScouterV

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    @richardjohngrayson: I don't see how this has anything to do with Grayson, though.

    Honestly, this just speaks to a thought I've been having. Jason should be pretty far removed from the Bat Family as is, along with Drake. The Bat-Family has too many players as is, so losing a couple who could be doing much bigger, better things wouldn't be that bad a deal.

    Despite the old-canon, I don't think there's a problem with the Outlaws. Let's face it, Roy probably has more in common with Jason than he does Dick at this point, and Starfire apparently wasn't that close with Dick anyway.

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    graysonofgotham

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    #28  Edited By graysonofgotham

    @scouterv said:

    @richardjohngrayson: I don't see how this has anything to do with Grayson, though.

    Honestly, this just speaks to a thought I've been having. Jason should be pretty far removed from the Bat Family as is, along with Drake. The Bat-Family has too many players as is, so losing a couple who could be doing much bigger, better things wouldn't be that bad a deal.

    Despite the old-canon, I don't think there's a problem with the Outlaws. Let's face it, Roy probably has more in common with Jason than he does Dick at this point, and Starfire apparently wasn't that close with Dick anyway.

    I already said what I feel it has to do with Dick Grayson. I feel it does a disservice to Dick and Barbara's history. Jason Todd is piggy backing WAY to much off of Grayson's life/history. As for the Outlaws I just feel Red Hood would fit far better in street level vigilante stories than space adventures.

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    youknowwhattodo

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    #29  Edited By youknowwhattodo

    @scouterv said:

    @richardjohngrayson: I don't see how this has anything to do with Grayson, though.

    Honestly, this just speaks to a thought I've been having. Jason should be pretty far removed from the Bat Family as is, along with Drake. The Bat-Family has too many players as is, so losing a couple who could be doing much bigger, better things wouldn't be that bad a deal.

    Despite the old-canon, I don't think there's a problem with the Outlaws. Let's face it, Roy probably has more in common with Jason than he does Dick at this point, and Starfire apparently wasn't that close with Dick anyway.

    The problem with Roy and Starfire being with the Outlaws is that they're not outlaws. There are a multitude of characters that DC could have picked to be in RHATO and they picked Dick's two closest friends who aren't outlaws. Not to mention it's generally never a good idea to partner up a cosmic powered character with two street levelers.

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    ScouterV

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    @youknowwhattodo: When I read the term "Outlaw" in the context, I took it to mean something closer to "Outcast." Jason and Roy have been considered the Black Sheep for various reasons by their closest relationships (Arrow kicking Roy to the curve when he found out he was junkie, and Batman having a hard time tempering Jasons' aggression, and how he dealt with his return.) Kori is a little different in that she's something of an outcast on Earth by her nature.

    @richardjohngrayson: You mean this history that was distorted by Flashpoint? Besides, do we really need more street-level vigilantes?

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    youknowwhattodo

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    #31  Edited By youknowwhattodo

    @scouterv said:

    @youknowwhattodo: When I read the term "Outlaw" in the context, I took it to mean something closer to "Outcast." Jason and Roy have been considered the Black Sheep for various reasons by their closest relationships (Arrow kicking Roy to the curve when he found out he was junkie, and Batman having a hard time tempering Jasons' aggression, and how he dealt with his return.) Kori is a little different in that she's something of an outcast on Earth by her nature.

    @richardjohngrayson: You mean this history that was distorted by Flashpoint? Besides, do we really need more street-level vigilantes?

    out·law

    noun

    1. 1.a person who has broken the law, especially one who remains at large or is a fugitive.

    outlaws =/= outcasts

    To answer the question, yes, a Jason Todd book should feel like a street-level vigilante book, it's really awkward seeing Red Hood in space.

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    graysonofgotham

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    #32  Edited By graysonofgotham

    @scouterv said:

    @youknowwhattodo: When I read the term "Outlaw" in the context, I took it to mean something closer to "Outcast." Jason and Roy have been considered the Black Sheep for various reasons by their closest relationships (Arrow kicking Roy to the curve when he found out he was junkie, and Batman having a hard time tempering Jasons' aggression, and how he dealt with his return.) Kori is a little different in that she's something of an outcast on Earth by her nature.

    @richardjohngrayson: You mean this history that was distorted by Flashpoint? Besides, do we really need more street-level vigilantes?

    Dick and Babs history hasn't been changed that much in the new 52. Their care for each other has been covered in the New 52 a bunch of times.

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    SmashBrawler

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    I don't know why people even bother with this kind of stuff, romance in mainstream superhero books is almost always crap.

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    ScouterV

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    @scouterv said:

    @youknowwhattodo: When I read the term "Outlaw" in the context, I took it to mean something closer to "Outcast." Jason and Roy have been considered the Black Sheep for various reasons by their closest relationships (Arrow kicking Roy to the curve when he found out he was junkie, and Batman having a hard time tempering Jasons' aggression, and how he dealt with his return.) Kori is a little different in that she's something of an outcast on Earth by her nature.

    @richardjohngrayson: You mean this history that was distorted by Flashpoint? Besides, do we really need more street-level vigilantes?

    out·law

    noun

    1. 1.a person who has broken the law, especially one who remains at large or is a fugitive.

    outlaws =/= outcasts

    To answer the question, yes, a Jason Todd book should feel like a street-level vigilante book, it's really awkward seeing Red Hood in space.

    Well, given the things they do now, I suppose they do kind of fit that definition.

    With that said, I think you took the name too literal from the start. I mean, none of the Robins (in my opinion,) had anything that would make me think of the term "Titan" when I see them, but I understood what they were going for.

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    youknowwhattodo

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    #35  Edited By youknowwhattodo

    @scouterv: No they don't because they're not on the run from the law nor are they rebellious (at least none more so than 90% of the DCU). If you're going to call characters outlaws, they should be outlaws. It's not taking it too literally, it's common sense. In the case of the Teen Titans,

    ti·tan

    1 : any of a family of giants in Greek mythology born of Uranus and Gaea and ruling the earth until overthrown by the Olympian gods

    2: one that is gigantic in size or power :one that stands out for greatness of achievement

    So in the case of Teen Titans, it stands for teenagers who stand out for greatness of their achievement so it fits very well with the definition.

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    ScouterV

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    @youknowwhattodo: Eh. I just never really thought much of Robin or even Speedy, compared to the likes of Starfire, Beast Boy, Kid Flash, etc. A Titan? A bit of a stretch, I'd say.

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    youknowwhattodo

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    #37  Edited By youknowwhattodo

    @scouterv: It's not a stretch, when you take a look at the skillsets that these characters have with the obstacles they had to overcome, it's easy to say they stand out from humanity because of their achievements and are therefore worthy of the moniker "Titan".

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    Nathaniel_Christopher

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    @scouterv said:

    @richardjohngrayson: I don't see how this has anything to do with Grayson, though.

    Honestly, this just speaks to a thought I've been having. Jason should be pretty far removed from the Bat Family as is, along with Drake. The Bat-Family has too many players as is, so losing a couple who could be doing much bigger, better things wouldn't be that bad a deal.

    Despite the old-canon, I don't think there's a problem with the Outlaws. Let's face it, Roy probably has more in common with Jason than he does Dick at this point, and Starfire apparently wasn't that close with Dick anyway.

    She said pretty much the exact opposite in one of her very first appearances, that there was a time they spent night and day together constantly, so yeah they were pretty close. Same goes for Dick and Barbara. And in terms of Roy, perhaps, but honestly the status he's at now is more of a guy that's fallen on hard times, whereas for Jason its the norm. Compare it to him using drugs in the old canon, working for Checkmate, and then pulling himself back up to working with the Titans and finally the Justice League. Jason's always in the darkness. The same doesn't hold true for either Roy or Kori. The way both are being written now is what it is, but it's certainly not the longterm status quo for either, and it's not like either can't easily be written out of it.

    I don't think there's a problem with the Outlaws concept by any means, but they could've found better people to fill the spots than Roy and Kori.

    Also at the question, do we really need more street level vigilantes? I'd say that I don't see why not, especially if we're talking about one featuring Red Hood as the top billed name, a guy who is and always has been street level.

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    vernierhawk001

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    There's also some interaction around Batgirl #3 and Nightwing#4 (I think) that hints at more Dick/Babs stuff in the N52.

    In terms of directly addressing the topic, I haven't read Eternal but it seems to me that much of Babs' interaction with Jason has not been positive. Also, it just seems weird unless Babs is really going for the whole bad boy thing (since Ricky.....wait, whatever happened to that guy)?

    @outside_85 said:

    @nathaniel_christopher said:

    @daredevil21134 said:

    @outside_85 said:

    As if the Dick/Babs relationship was anything to write home about. Seriously, what is the appeal in that coupling?

    Batman the animated series lol,I actually think it's one of Dick's worst relationships

    Yes. That's what the majority of fans based their liking for the pairing around, which I can't necessarily argue against, because I thought they were solid in that show and had potential, and what's more my liking for comics started with that show. I've just since moved beyond it and don't expect every little thing to be the same. Though, the pairing did have some steam and history Pre-Flashpoint. It just wasn't the same as what happened between them in BTAS. Dick had even proposed to Barbara right before Infinite Crisis.

    Problem with BTAS is that it's canon eventually lead to Bruce and Barbara... which I can't even get my head around how that came about.

    Regarding Dick/Babs, I suppose it's fine to like the coupling because of how it was in BTAS. But I just wonder if thats really the way to go considering the comic versions acted more like brother and sister?

    Btw, think Dick has the worst luck when it comes to marriage. Infinite Crisis practically voided that proposal, and the one to Starfire ended up with Raven showing up and blowing the priest to kingdom come before the 'I do's'.

    I don't think one should necessarily look at one work (In this case BTAS) and assume the same people will or need to have the exact same relationship in another medium, however I wouldn't really say Dick and Babs acted like brother and sister in the comics. Even though they never had a relationship until later years, after Dick was Nightwing and such, there was flirting going on between them.

    So it definitely wasn't written to the same extent that Dick/Kori was, because Dick quite simply didn't actually work with Barbara all that often when he was Robin, but i'd say an attraction was always there.

    Dick's luck in marriage is pretty much the same as Bruce's lol Status Quo is God after all.

    @midnightdragon18 In terms of Dick/Barbara never happening in the New 52, no, that's fairly wrong. Just like Dick and Kori, Dick and Barbara have had some form of relationship that goes beyond friends, and both fully acknowledged their feelings for the other.

    They note that the timing always seems to be wrong for them and ponder over whether they should try again, and even when it's clear they can't because of different priorities at the time, they clearly care deeply about one another. Heck, Dick asks Barbara to go to another city with him, which is a fairly major step to take in any relationship. And we also see that just like Pre-Flashpoint, the hints to the relationship were still there between them as Robin and Batgirl. Dick/Barbara hasn't been fully shown in the New 52, just like Dick/Kori hasn't been, but they've been together to some extent, and have made it clear to the other that the feelings still exist in the present day. That's a major reason why Jason and Barbara shouldn't be together.

    There's also a certain amount of squick that comes with the idea of a younger brother dating his older brother's ex-lover. It's understandable why Jason would be attracted to Barbara, but not so understandable why Barbara would be attracted to him, and Jason's past actions against the Bat Family, plus his role again as Dick's younger sibling I think would turn her off the idea. And at the same time, besides the physical, I don't see why Jason would want to pursue a relationship with her either.

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    JayAaerow

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    THANK YOU! I THOUGHT I WAS ALONE ON THIS!

    It's like, disservice to all three characters in various ways. I can get Jason and Babs really need to get new love interests. Jason had practically zero and all Barbara had was Grayson and civilian people no one can remember. But I hate when Batfamily members date another people someone in the Batfamily already has. Quite frankly, it just there for drama. It normally adds no substance. Not many like Jason with Talia. And nobody wants to see Grayson with Catwoman(though it was admittingly funny when it was done the way it was. But I don't actually ship it.) At this point, we want to see character actually get something meaningful.

    First off, I'm so disappointed in what they do to Jason Todd. I love all the apprentices of Batman. Jason has struggled all his character career with Grayson comparisons that rivals the comparisons Grayson gets from Bruce. Giving him his old costume(also having the audacity to make that current costume his singular recognizable one instead of edited it to his specifications), his friends, his relationships, and now his love interest is doing the very same thing that made fans hate Jason in the first place. After reading Red Hood Future's End where Jason played solo, that's the type of book I want to see Jason in! His friends can be coincidentally Grayson for all I care. I love a universe that's connected. I don't want those characters,however, having their origins and personality changed just to fit for him. Before the New 52, before Kori and Roy would ever even join Red Hood in anything, they be sure he never laid a finger on Grayson and the Batfamily for that matter. They are TITANS character. The reboot can change all they want. We know they are and always will be Titans characters. It's the equivalence to being a Justice League character to me. Want Jason to have friends? Give him people that perfectly fits for him. Rose Wilson? New Character? Whatever works. It's high time Jason got something to brag about other then getting sloppy seconds or leftovers from Grayson. DC doesn't have many Red Hood-type characters.

    It's also disservice to Barbara. I get she has like...almost no love interest and getting some new ones doesn't hurt at all. But the reason she had Grayson cause it compliments here, whether or not people want to think otherwise. It actually progress her character sometimes when done right. Makes her look strong in many cases and relatable. However, the reboot had the audacity to make it friends with sexual tension and half of the time, she's a b**** to Richard. Oh now that he's gone, she gonna hook up with Jason? And yet, she says she loves him? I almost feel bad for Jason. He's getting people who can't be loyal to people who are incredible to them. In the reboot, Dick stayed in Gotham for HER(mentioned in the Batgirl book) and she took that as pity love. Seriously? She keeps coming off as unappreciative. She might of been a b**** sometimes to Grayson pre-reboot, but lets not act like Grayson doesn't ever have problems. This is the same guy who can get violent with Starfire because of their problems and Starfire can do it back. And he's pulled dumb moves before. And says nasty things when he's mad. He has a temper. But in the New 52, he's like the perfect guy and she puts him off cause she thinks it's pity love. I really hope Jason and Babs gets virtually nowhere cause I don't need a repeat of the fact Babs can't let people love her and come off as a b****. That's not the Barbara Gordon I know and want to love. NO! If you're going to do that, should of left her as Oracle. And Jason doesn't need that. Besides, he never had feeling like that for her. She was like an older sister to her. And she's daughter of a cop. This shouldn't even be debated. She doesn't go with the "Bad boy" types because she enforces justice on their face just as much as her dad and Batman does.

    It is disservice to Grayson. But lets keep in mind that Grayson is the character who gets shipped with everyone. I can see why some don't have a problem since Grayson is "allowed" to be shipped with virtually every hot female comic character with 2 legs. I'm actually the type of fan that doesn't like that, though. I always preferred him with Babs or Starfire. Because they offer significant things and do much better making him progress as a character when done right. The only relieve from Grayson being shipped with everyone is that his character is used to stepstone other characters. So writers generally TRY giving a dynamic. But by the end of the day, I know it doesn't last and rather see him be in a relationship with one of those 2 instead.

    My overall point is I feel that DC pairs characters nowadays just to be like "OH LOOK! THESE 2 ARE DATING!". And I'm like "If It's not adding any substance to the character, don't bother. I'm not spending my money on books that focus on a ship that does nothing and does quite the opposite." We see it enough in real life. Unless the ship is there for that sole purpose so people can relate, dont do it either. Considering how DC handles ships nowadays, I wouldn't trust them to write Jason/Babs good. They can't even do iconic ships right and want to change it cause it's "boring". It gets boring when you stop giving reasons why it needs to stay iconic.

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    redwingx

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    #41  Edited By redwingx

    I don't understand how you can be fine with what happened in Grayson Future End which was a big slap to all BarbaraxDick shippers but not this lol?

    Dick is also about to sleep with a random chick by the looks of the preview of Grayson 3. Not to mention this was doomed to happen with how isolated Dick Grayson is now. He is dead and can never tell that he's alive. Barbara is moving on with her life.

    Barbara is also not an object that Jason can steal or use.

    @jayaaerow I disagree. Roy and Jason works very well.

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    deactivated-5d3f071d30d9f

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    Because Jason needs to look more like Nightwing or having what he had on N52.

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    youknowwhattodo

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    @redwingx said:

    I don't understand how you can be fine with what happened in Grayson Future End which was a big slap to all BarbaraxDick shippers but not this lol?

    Dick is also about to sleep with a random chick by the looks of the preview of Grayson 3. Not to mention this was doomed to happen with how isolated Dick Grayson is now. He is dead and can never tell that he's alive. Barbara is moving on with her life.

    Barbara is also not an object that Jason can steal or use.

    @jayaaerow I disagree. Roy and Jason works very well.

    Well, my objection to Jason/Babs really isn't because I ship BarbaraxDick because to be honest, it's an overrated pairing. But I will say in Grayson Future's End, I initially misread that whole exchange, what the scene between Barbara and Dick was trying to do was draw parallels between Bruce and Helena because there has always been this perception that Helena Bertinelli is the female version of Batman. There were other parallels as well, from the conversation that Bruce had with Dick regarding wearing bright colors so criminals can see him to Helena convincing Dick to get a Spyral tattoo so that their enemies can see he works for Spyral. Also there was the parallel between Bruce's philosophy towards murder and responsibility to Helena's philosophy towards murder. So, while people could interpret that scene as throwing dirt on Dick/Babs (in fact many on tumblr did), I think they missed the main point of that exchange.

    My main objection is how about 80% of what we've read about Jason Todd in the new 52 hasn't felt like Jason Todd and instead like Dick Grayson and as a result, his character really hasn't been able to carve a unique stamp on the DCU because he's just treading over what his predecessor already did in another continuity. A potential Jason/Babs pairing is kind of the last straw for me, because I believe Jason has potential but it's been squandered in the new 52. I remember the original plan for Infinite Crisis was to have Dick die and have Jason take over as Nightwing, well it seems as though we're getting something very similar, except DC is able to have their cake and eat it too as they can still make money with a Grayson solo (which comes out tomorrow, really excited) but still have Jason Todd take his place in the DCU. Since this change is temporary, I really think it does nothing good for Jason in the long run, in fact I could say that Jason's entire journey through the new 52 will ultimately weaken his character in the long run.

    I have no problem with Barbara Gordon hooking up with another character while Dick Grayson remains "dead" because Dick doesn't own her in fact I really don't mind all that much if she never hooks up with Dick in the new 52. But hooking her up with Jason, a character who has taken so much from Dick in the new 52, only because Dick isn't around is insulting to all three characters, even if it's temporary.

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    Nathaniel_Christopher

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    I really can't understand how Jason Todd fans or Barbara Gordon fans could be fine with the two of them hooking up, besides the "bragging" rights that come with such a thing in the real world.

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    graysonofgotham

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    @redwingx said:

    I don't understand how you can be fine with what happened in Grayson Future End which was a big slap to all BarbaraxDick shippers but not this lol?

    Dick is also about to sleep with a random chick by the looks of the preview of Grayson 3. Not to mention this was doomed to happen with how isolated Dick Grayson is now. He is dead and can never tell that he's alive. Barbara is moving on with her life.

    Barbara is also not an object that Jason can steal or use.

    @jayaaerow I disagree. Roy and Jason works very well.

    Well, my objection to Jason/Babs really isn't because I ship BarbaraxDick because to be honest, it's an overrated pairing. But I will say in Grayson Future's End, I initially misread that whole exchange, what the scene between Barbara and Dick was trying to do was draw parallels between Bruce and Helena because there has always been this perception that Helena Bertinelli is the female version of Batman. There were other parallels as well, from the conversation that Bruce had with Dick regarding wearing bright colors so criminals can see him to Helena convincing Dick to get a Spyral tattoo so that their enemies can see he works for Spyral. Also there was the parallel between Bruce's philosophy towards murder and responsibility to Helena's philosophy towards murder. So, while people could interpret that scene as throwing dirt on Dick/Babs (in fact many on tumblr did), I think they missed the main point of that exchange.

    My main objection is how about 80% of what we've read about Jason Todd in the new 52 hasn't felt like Jason Todd and instead like Dick Grayson and as a result, his character really hasn't been able to carve a unique stamp on the DCU because he's just treading over what his predecessor already did in another continuity. A potential Jason/Babs pairing is kind of the last straw for me, because I believe Jason has potential but it's been squandered in the new 52. I remember the original plan for Infinite Crisis was to have Dick die and have Jason take over as Nightwing, well it seems as though we're getting something very similar, except DC is able to have their cake and eat it too as they can still make money with a Grayson solo (which comes out tomorrow, really excited) but still have Jason Todd take his place in the DCU. Since this change is temporary, I really think it does nothing good for Jason in the long run, in fact I could say that Jason's entire journey through the new 52 will ultimately weaken his character in the long run.

    I have no problem with Barbara Gordon hooking up with another character while Dick Grayson remains "dead" because Dick doesn't own her in fact I really don't mind all that much if she never hooks up with Dick in the new 52. But hooking her up with Jason, a character who has taken so much from Dick in the new 52, only because Dick isn't around is insulting to all three characters, even if it's temporary.

    Well said. I 100%% agree.

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    batcat91

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    @scouterv: It's not a stretch, when you take a look at the skillsets that these characters have with the obstacles they had to overcome, it's easy to say they stand out from humanity because of their achievements and are therefore worthy of the moniker "Titan".

    Well said! How is Nightwing not a titan? Grayson has consistently had amazing feats and is remarkably skilled. I honestly think it's a bit silly to not consider him one since he was the de facto leader of the Teen Titans in the pre-52. That's like saying Cyclops does not belong on the X-men, it would be odd. Don't know too much about Roy Harper unfortunately, other than he's got excellent marksmanship lol

    That being said Jason Todd and Barbara together seems very out of character. Then again I have not read Batman Eternal yet.

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    ScouterV

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    @batcat91: Difference is that Cyclops is a mutant. That's a fact.

    To say Nightwing is a titan is an opinion.

    But I'm talking about what he did as Robin. Not Nightwing. Again, comparing him to people like Kid Flash, Raven, etc. It's a hard sell in my opinion.

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    Vitacura

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    @scouterv: As Robin Dick led people like Kid Flash, Raven, etc. that is a fact. You think Titans would take orders from mere mortals?

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    czechoslovakia

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    i don't mind it. shaking things up is fun and their interactions have good chemistry so why not

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    HushoftheWind

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    can somebody please the age difference between Dick and Jason? B/c i know Barbara is older than both of them. im starting to think there's 2 year gap between all three robins with Dick being 2 years older than Jason and Jason being 2 years older than Tim.

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