Intelligence and Detective Ability(Last Update: 11-13-13)

#1 Edited by JayAaerow (565 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel like many times, watching many Battle Fourms with Nightwing involved, I feel like half the time, they underestimate his intellectual prowness and ability as a Detective. So I wanted to put together some things to help clear up some thing about his ability as a Detective and level of Intellect. Sorta like a Respect thread except dedicated to only thing that shows his intelligence and Detective ability. Going to use both Pre-Reboot and New 52 feats for this.

EDIT: There's a lot more to come.

EDIT 2: I hope this thread is enjoyable. I see a lot of people commenting about how he should be leading his own team like the Justice League. I'm thinking about opening a thread showcasing his skills as a leader before the reboot. Also wanting to do something showcasing his skills in battle.

Edit 3: I also forgot to menton this: This is filled by a lot of feats Pre-Reboot. The reason for that is this: The New 52 makes his Detective abilities and Intellect questionable then what it use to be. For example: Nighwing 10-14 has him go through 2 story arcs. The Tomorrow people did show some detective ability but in comparison to what I post, he's portrayed as being a bit slower. Also, it's the same arc where he has trouble with Paragon, a character who IMO sucks. He has no background on how he aquired the tech he has nor his combat training and yet gave Nightwing a hard time. A low showing. Also, the next arc pits him against Lady Shiva. While their fight was cool IMO, his skills there were lower then it was before the reboot. He lost that fight because of an injury he aquired from the first issue. And wasn't even explored upon, as he then fought Saiko 3 times, a demon similar to Etrigan, and a couple of minor character and never hindered him before. Then Paragon's fight somehow made that injury reappear and then is a contributing factor of why he lost? And was played by Penguin. And thought the Joker was involved. Joker wasn't even involved in that arc nor made any significant appearance till the end, in which led to the Death of the Family crossover. I laughed, honestly, on how they now portray him as a detective and fighter. There's also the Chicago Arc. While I probably post things about it, keep in mind that arc also undermines his initial intellect. In that arc, he meets a skilledv hacker. I'll try finding feats of him in his hacking prowess but i know he's been good to the point not just anyone should hack his suit easily.And later has his roomate, who just happen to specialize in Computer Security, try to explain to him ways to protect his suit, despite having the resources from his mentor along with Tim Drake to be able to do that all on his own with a few pointers, not that he even needs pointers. He's been shown to be computer-able before so I don't get why in the New 52, his intellect and deductive ability has went down a notch or 2. Can't tell If it's because his writer is aware of his skills in that area or thats a New 52 change. He's not the only incantation to show this. In YJ, He was shown to be an expert hacker. My point of this edit post is that I'll try putting good New 52 feats up but considering his portrayal right now, it's going to somewhat difficult finding good ones that deal with his intellect and detective ability.

Here, He deduces that Talia was involved in a a development of armed wing-men. (Pre-Reboot)

Solves 4 Cases in a Single Morning after watching America's Most Wanted. (Pre-Reboot)

Deduces who the New Azrael is(Pre-Reboot)

After unmasking him, He quickly deduces who the new Vigilante is very quickly. (Pre-Reboot)

Shows off his observant skills(Pre-Reboot)

Figures out who the Black Mask is. He does later end up putting him in Arkham.(Pre-Reboot)

Deduces the Getaway Genius uses Holographic Tech and also knows that he is, infact, a she(Pre-Reboot)

Deduces that the Shade is the person linking all the shadow energy together although everyone else believes its Jade given her connection to both shadow and starheart energy. Also, he gets complimented by saying he's the world's greatest Detective. He corrects the person and says he's the 2nd best, Inferring Bruce Wayne is 1st. (Pre-Reboot)

Designed a specialize Stun Gernade specifically for Clayface.

Builds his own "Wing-Mobile". Was a Prototype later for his Batmobile when he took over as Batman(Pre-Reboot)

Builds and programs his own Tech-Glider(Pre-Reboot)

Mentions he can fool a Polygraph

Hacks an Alien Terminal with the use of the Tameranian Language.(Pre-Reboot)

Formulates a Plan that defeated the Cosmic Villain Omega Man and also defeated the Crime Syndicate, including Owlman(Bruce Wayne's evil counterpart)(Pre-Reboot)

Even before becoming Robin, was displayed able to deduce riddles quicker than Batman himself.

Figures out clues to Batman's whereabouts quicker then Batman anticipated. Also, as a bonus, he needs HIS help.(Pre-Reboot)

In this story, he ends up solving a mystery even quicker then Batman himself. Getting remarked by him of his skills as a Detectivem even.(Pre-Crisis)

In this story, with a little tech help from Oracle, He solves a cold case that has been solved for 15 years.(Pre-Crisis)

Here, he's shown to be a little quicker then Damian. Though this is more of a feat for Damian and it's expected for someone like Dick to have already realize this. This just shows that he did, indeed, show Damian how to be a better detective during his experience as Batman and him as Robin. He also think it's because the "Apple doesn't fall far from three".(Pre-Crisis)

He deduces who Sexton really was: Joker. Good feat on Joker's end in disguise cause he almost fooled Robin and Batman initially in the story. Robin was able to pick up things, though. And Batman seemed to already have been suspicious before, as he shows that now. On a personal note: This was a complete surprise to me(Pre-Reboot)

Can tell Ray Man was using illusions to trick them, encourages Robin and Nightrunner to tell themselves it's not real. It should be noted he was 1st to be the one to get through the illusion. This feat also showcases his indomitable will.

In this Story, Superman enlists the help of Nightiwng in tracking down Dr. Bruce Gordon. This shows even Superman trusts him enough to help and do the job. (Pre-Reboot)

In this story, one of Nightwing's rogues gets a hold of an Full Spectrum Flash Pulse gun. He is able to explain what it is and infers the gun is likely of Alien Origin.(Pre-Reboot)

Nightwing reveals he had hacked the JLA Emergency Overide Codes to access their Teleporter. He then also reveals that the JLA don't even know he did so.

Here, the DC Encyclopedia even mentions him of being 2nd to Batman in Detective ability. Not Tim Drake, who many say he's a better Detective than Nigtwing. Nor the Question, who has detective skills that rival that of Batman. This makes sense, as when Batman is supposedly dead, it's Dick who becomes Batman, the World's Greatest Detective. It wouldn't make sense for Red Robin to be a better Detective, as that undermines a great trait needed in anyone truly being Batman. Not to mention that Dick himself taught Tim during the times they spent together. (Pre-Reboot)

Speaking of Tim, Dick is teaching Tim the importance of observation. He takes the role of a mentor in this. Keep in mind this is before Tim becomes the 3rd Robin and eventually Red Robin. (Pre-Reboot)

We see more of his observant skills. And not only that, We also see him some off some scientific knowledge (Pre-Reboot)

In this story, He tracks down Donna's past life, as she cannot remember. This is, perhaps, the single most best detective ability displayed for Dick Grayson. And this was his last major story arc as Robin. Here, he showed much dedication into it. Some scans will show his dedication and skill. This arc is good IMO because It does not involve Batman. I love him but with, Dick Grayson or Tim Drake, he always makes it harder for them to get a good showing. This is also something he did on expense for Donna's happiness. It was a nice story. However, this was possibly rectonned, as Donna's origin is known to be changed around. Now, it appears before she was erased in N52, she can recall living multiple lives with different origins. (Pre-Reboot, Possibly Rectoned)

Here, we see more of his dedication and determination of uncovering the mystery of "Who is Donna Troy?" This clearly shows that even as Robin, his skills in Detective ability is top-notched. And he has grown from his experiences. However, like previously stated, this is possibly rectonned due to Donna's inconsistent history(Pre-Reboot, Possibly Rectonned)

Here, He's seen to be able to read motion and body language. In the New 52, this is a improvement to a ability he had already. A big reason why he was such a people person before was because of the ability to read others. This was mention in a book similar to the DC Encyclopedia. The New 52 has it taken to a new height that is very similar to Cassandra Cain's ability to read others. This not only helps him in detective reasoning with others, but also combat ability.(New 52)

Here's his Motion reading skills are shown in action, showing him to beat Johnny Spade in a Card Game.(New 52)

Bruce mentions that he has a gift for reading motion after teaming up with him multiple times during the night as Dick investigates the murder of his parents. Interesting fact, This is reminiscent Batman, who also did the same thing when he investigated the Court of the Owls, who he thought had a play in his parent's death. Except he ended up trapped in a house for days and Alfred was his Batman in it. And he didn't really team up with anyone.Otherwise, they're very similar in motive and how they initially react. (New 52)

These scan showcase his Body reading ability. The first time met Bruce(2nd Scan), he notices some traits when Bruce realizes what Dick goes through is just like him. Later, he meets Batman and notices those same movements and suspects he's Batman.(New 52)

Various Gadgetry Nightwing can use. Note All the ones here present are Standard Equipment. And as far as we know, he makes these on his own. (New 52)

Nightwing has created over 6 suits. Some as Nightwing and some as Robin. (New 52)

Creates a Kill Switch within his Costume to combat Prankster whenever he blacked out his lens. (New 52)(Nightwing 24)

Mentions he has the skill to dismantle bomb and cleverly comes up with a plan to save the neighborhood from exploding.(New 52)(Nightwing 24)

Disguises himself as Batman on Bruce's orders. (Batman Inc.)(New 52)

Cleverly deduces how Donna Troy was captured by Deathstroke. (Tale of Teen Titans 43)(Pre-Reboot)

#2 Posted by kasino (2011 posts) - - Show Bio

again should be leading his own JL team with notable characters and a few who lesser none they want to bring along.

#3 Edited by JayAaerow (565 posts) - - Show Bio

@kasino said:

again should be leading his own JL team with notable characters and a few who lesser none they want to bring along.

Agreed. The reason I put this together was, like the OP said, many people underestimate his deductive ability and intelligence. They act like being trained by Batman isn't something special, despite the feats he pulls off. And he's his first. And plus, i remember Kyle Higgins commented that during a Daredevil vs Nightwing fight that was done with vote that he wasn't sure If he could figure out his weakness to loud sounds. I like Higgins but he shoulda known his detective ability is 2nd only to Batman. And People forget he is at least the Top 5 Detectives with Question or Tim Drake being in his way. Though I heard Tim Drake possess a higher intellect then him, and people assume it's cause of that, he's a better detective. I think it's just intellect prowess. There's a scan saying he's second to Batman in Detective ability by the DC Handbook I'll post.

With this post, I hope to prove that he's not an idiot nor is his detective ability subpar. He might not be Batman or Red Robin smart, but he's close. That goes double for this detective ability. I remember reading Nightwing 13 and 14 and I already knew of his Detective Ability. And those 2 issues made me facepalm at how dumb he was. And he's wasn't ever portrayed that dumb before to what I recall.

There's a reason why he was able to lead the amount of team he led pre-reboot.

#4 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (2894 posts) - - Show Bio

Him solving cases for America's Most Wanted in his free time is still one of the greatest things in comic history to me. Both awesome and hilarious at the same time.

#5 Posted by Squalleon (9473 posts) - - Show Bio

We need a JL book with Nightwing as it's leader asap!

#6 Posted by richardgrayson14 (6 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayaaerow: I think dick is actually smarter than tim but isn't as much of a natural detective. Bruce has called dick a genius before. In my opinion I think dick is a better detective because of experience, when tim gets older he'll surpass him and probably Bruce too but dick is better for the time being only because he's been in the game a lot longer than tim. I think detective ability is just more natural to tim. Because you can still be a genius and not have any detective skill, so dick still might be smarter

#7 Edited by Aahz (853 posts) - - Show Bio

I think is that Dicks intellectual abilities just became less and less important over the years. In his Golden Age solo storys for example there is a much bigger weight on his intelligence and his detective skills than in later comics. But at this time he was of course the only Batman Side Kick , so he could be the best at everything.

But allready in his pre crisis Nightwing series there was a much bigger focus on his acrobatic abilities. And this is probably partly to differentiate him from Tim supposed to be the smart one and the computer expert (I think allready in gates of Gotham Dick said that he relies on Tim for information gathering).

And in the new 52 they went probaly further in this direction, since Tim was made much intelligenter than before. In his original origin he was presented good student that had "mostly A's" in the new 52 he is a child prodigy that could ace the S.A.T. in middle school. And on the other hand Dicks body read ability became more prominent, that was afaik never used pre falshpoint.

In the Young Justice Series on the other hand they made Dick so smart, that Tim seemed quite weak in comparison.

Btw. I really hope that they use the new Ethernal series to show us where each Robin has his expertise, and that they came up with something for Jason other than that Dick is better at everything...

#8 Edited by JayAaerow (565 posts) - - Show Bio

@aahz said:

I think is that Dicks intellectual abilities just became less and less important over the years. In his Golden Age solo storys for example there is a much bigger weight on his intelligence and his detective skills than in later comics. But at this time he was of course the only Batman Side Kick , so he could be the best at everything.

But allready in his pre crisis Nightwing series there was a much bigger focus on his acrobatic abilities. And this is probably partly to differentiate him from Tim supposed to be the smart one and the computer expert (I think allready in gates of Gotham Dick said that he relies on Tim for information gathering).

And in the new 52 they went probaly further in this direction, since Tim was made much intelligenter than before. In his original origin he was presented good student that had "mostly A's" in the new 52 he is a child prodigy that could ace the S.A.T. in middle school. And on the other hand Dicks body read ability became more prominent, that was afaik never used pre falshpoint.

In the Young Justice Series on the other hand they made Dick so smart, that Tim seemed quite weak in comparison.

Btw. I really hope that they use the new Ethernal series to show us where each Robin has his expertise, and that they came up with something for Jason other than that Dick is better at everything...

Agreed. Back when I made this thread, I was peeved at the fact that in order to differentiate, it seemed they reduced Dick to being somewhat of a "jock" to justify a difference. But then DC themselves say Dick is second to Batman in detective ability and not Tim but then again, given how Grayson has been written all over the place It's coming down to the writer. But yeah, I get tired of Dick's acrobatic skills emphansized. Sorry but being acrobatic, while helps a lot, does not make a hero and is kinda silly. He's called "The Acrobat" when his true skills lies in his ability to read people (and leadership overall). Pre-52, this was contributing to why he was such a good team player and leader. New 52, I guess it can be something and I like how it's been played with him in terms of him now being a superspy and using it to manipulate. People think Cassandra Cain had this but don't realize this has been with Dick for a while, just about almost NEVER emphansized like hers. Plus, played a bit different.

True. They made him much more intellectual in comparison to Pre-52's Tim but I feel it took the magic off of Tim a bit since he represented the actual normal Robin that, while was great at observation, did not inheritedly have skills that made him being Robin easy until he had training. Dick was an acrobat, Jason was a street urchin so he had SOMETHING of thief skills, and Damian was an assassin.

YJ made sense to me because in that frame, he was being trained and was Robin for a year or two at most so what do you expect? And this was before New 52's "5 years of training" = "Batman-level person" or something like that XD You couldn't expect him to look like he could equal Nightwing just yet. Nightwing had years of training in comparison.

#9 Posted by Aahz (853 posts) - - Show Bio

Agreed. Back when I made this thread, I was peeved at the fact that in order to differentiate, it seemed they reduced Dick to being somewhat of a "jock" to justify a difference. But then DC themselves say Dick is second to Batman in detective ability and not Tim but then again, given how Grayson has been written all over the place It's coming down to the writer.

But this "Dick is second to Batman in detective ability" comes afaik from some Enceclypedia, and thats imopinion not such a great source since the guy how wrote it was not necessary an expert for this character and in this books they have often somehow to squeeze years of charcter development and lots of differnts takes on the charcter in one short parapraph.

He's called "The Acrobat" when his true skills lies in his ability to read people (and leadership overall). Pre-52, this was contributing to why he was such a good team player and leader. New 52, I guess it can be something and I like how it's been played with him in terms of him now being a superspy and using it to manipulate.

I honestly can't recall that he ever used his people reading ability in the pre flashpoint comics. And in never found his leadership abilities really convincing in the comics. I mean other charters said all the time that he was a great leader, but you never really portrait like this (at leat not in the original or new Teen Titans, i don't know about the later incarnations).

True. They made him much more intellectual in comparison to Pre-52's Tim but I feel it took the magic off of Tim a bit since he represented the actual normal Robin that, while was great at observation, did not inheritedly have skills that made him being Robin easy until he had training. Dick was an acrobat, Jason was a street urchin so he had SOMETHING of thief skills, and Damian was an assassin.

Depends how you compare the Tims. At the beginning of their career there is a huge difference between pre-52 and new 52 Tim. But the difference between new 52 Tim and the pre-52 Tim at the end of the old continuity is not that big.

YJ made sense to me because in that frame, he was being trained and was Robin for a year or two at most so what do you expect? And this was before New 52's "5 years of training" = "Batman-level person" or something like that XD You couldn't expect him to look like he could equal Nightwing just yet. Nightwing had years of training in comparison.

But he didn't even look like could equal Dicks robin from the first season. And it was the same with Barbara, how is in the comics usually much better then Dick when it comes to computers.

Jason was a street urchin so he had SOMETHING of thief skills

Jason was also quite a good fighter in his first appearance (even if it wasn't explained why). And btw. there were actually a lot of comics (including A death in the Family) where it is said that he was intelligent and talented as Dick.

#10 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (2894 posts) - - Show Bio

@aahz said:
@jayaaerow said:

Agreed. Back when I made this thread, I was peeved at the fact that in order to differentiate, it seemed they reduced Dick to being somewhat of a "jock" to justify a difference. But then DC themselves say Dick is second to Batman in detective ability and not Tim but then again, given how Grayson has been written all over the place It's coming down to the writer.

But this "Dick is second to Batman in detective ability" comes afaik from some Enceclypedia, and thats imopinion not such a great source since the guy how wrote it was not necessary an expert for this character and in this books they have often somehow to squeeze years of charcter development and lots of differnts takes on the charcter in one short parapraph.

@jayaaerow said:

He's called "The Acrobat" when his true skills lies in his ability to read people (and leadership overall). Pre-52, this was contributing to why he was such a good team player and leader. New 52, I guess it can be something and I like how it's been played with him in terms of him now being a superspy and using it to manipulate.

I honestly can't recall that he ever used his people reading ability in the pre flashpoint comics. And in never found his leadership abilities really convincing in the comics. I mean other charters said all the time that he was a great leader, but you never really portrait like this (at leat not in the original or new Teen Titans, i don't know about the later incarnations).

@jayaaerow said:

True. They made him much more intellectual in comparison to Pre-52's Tim but I feel it took the magic off of Tim a bit since he represented the actual normal Robin that, while was great at observation, did not inheritedly have skills that made him being Robin easy until he had training. Dick was an acrobat, Jason was a street urchin so he had SOMETHING of thief skills, and Damian was an assassin.

Depends how you compare the Tims. At the beginning of their career there is a huge difference between pre-52 and new 52 Tim. But the difference between new 52 Tim and the pre-52 Tim at the end of the old continuity is not that big.

@jayaaerow said:

YJ made sense to me because in that frame, he was being trained and was Robin for a year or two at most so what do you expect? And this was before New 52's "5 years of training" = "Batman-level person" or something like that XD You couldn't expect him to look like he could equal Nightwing just yet. Nightwing had years of training in comparison.

But he didn't even look like could equal Dicks robin from the first season. And it was the same with Barbara, how is in the comics usually much better then Dick when it comes to computers.

@jayaaerow said:

Jason was a street urchin so he had SOMETHING of thief skills

Jason was also quite a good fighter in his first appearance (even if it wasn't explained why). And btw. there were actually a lot of comics (including A death in the Family) where it is said that he was intelligent and talented as Dick.

Disagree on a few points, the main one being Dick Grayson's leadership abilities. I'd say those were HEAVILY focused on Pre-Flashpoint, which made their absence Post-Flashpoint all the more hard to swallow. Not only do you have Dick serving as the leader of various iterations of the Teen Titans, but 2 versions of the Justice League, and the Outsiders. Then, those stories where he lead, are actually all chronicled. You just have to read them to see how he actually operates as a leader. You therefore have people commenting on how good a leader he is, evidence of this when you read about him leading, and slightly further evidence whenever you read stories that show how deep the relationships he's formed with other heroes goes, because being a team player goes hand in hand with being a great team leader. In pretty much any story they work with after Dick's become Nightwing its noted, usually by Bruce, how easy it still is for them to work together years later. And outside of Bruce he's probably (Again, Pre-Flashpoint) worked with the members of the New Teen Titans the most, so you see a similar effect whenever he's around the likes of Donna, Wally, and Roy. You then have him forming working and personal relationships with both Tim Drake and Damian Wayne, both of whom you also have him mentoring a bit and helping to hone their own abilities, based off his numerous years of experience. Honestly, i'm not sure what more you really need on this front.

When you then start to think of intelligence and detective ability it really just falls down to a classic Robin matchup. Out of all of them, I personally thought that Tim's intelligence was always emphasized more than any other ability he had. He didn't have the natural athleticism of Dick or the brutality of Jason to back him up. He was just a normal kid, who'd lived a normal life, but had a natural aptitude for detective work. I think its generaly treated as Tim Drake being the better detective of the two, but if we're talking a top 10 list of the DCU as a whole than Dick is also on that list, right alongside Bruce and Tim. As I pointed out in my above post over a year ago, Dick's the one who has (Pre-Flashpint anyways) the feat of sitting on a couch, eating a bowl of cereal, and solving cases from the America's Most Wanted list, and Barbara notes that he's solved four that morning. Am I implying that neither Bruce or Tim could do the same? Not at all. I'm just putting it forth as a very real and credible piece of evidence for Dick Grayson's detective skills. When you then speak of intelligence in the field, plain and simple Tim just never comes off as being better than Dick, or very much of a genius in that area. They've both been trained by the best and are able to think up solid plans and tactics.

I really think though that it's a similar problem to the one that pops up between Nightwing and Batman. Both are incredibly skilled, but not the same person. Therefore, whenever they're together many writers will emphasize a certain trait in order to distinguish the two more clearly. I think that Dick and Tim are the same way, because of all the Robin's they're the most alike in my opinion. It's therefore not as big an issue in terms of Damian or Jason.

In terms of Young Justice, I don't necessarily think that either Tim or Barbara are portrayed as being incompetent. For Tim it's the fact that he is clearly fairly new at this. The beginning of season 2 really comes off as one of his first major missions, and his first major mission working away from either Batman or Nightwing. You then have the fact that Robin as a character isn't focused on as much in Season 2. There's a much larger cast now, including the original team, so he really has to split his screentime. This same issue applies to Batgirl, who i'll be honest, I barely remember appearing at all. And taking the "Newbie" aspect into account again, neither Tim Drake or Barbara Gordon were portrayed as being anything special when they first appeared in comics. Barbara's talent with computers only came into play once she became Oracle and therefore started learning and utilizing her skills in different ways. (Her current series in fact is a good example. She's computer savvy, but nowhere near as good as she was when she was Oracle.) And the same applies to Tim for the most part. So the show really just does a good job of portraying the sheer gap between them and Dick in terms of ability, and probably the same between Tim and Jason considering that the latter still died again in this verse. It's just a matter of the time when season 2 is taking place for all these people. Heck, look at Batman the Animated Series. In the first 3 seasons Batgirl had 2 appearances, neither of which portrayed her as being very competent, and nothing compared to either Batman or Robin. Flashforward to the 4th season, where a timeskip of a few years, during which Dick became Nightwing, has taken place and she's now Batman's main partner since Dick left, and is overall seen as being a far better crimefighter.

#11 Edited by Aahz (853 posts) - - Show Bio

@nathaniel_christopher:

Like I said I read the only the original (60s and 70s) and new (80s) Teen Titans, and at least in these runs I really can't recall him coming up with any really amazing plans. And the comments in the 80s that he was needed as a leader felt more as a justification, why he was on the team with all the super powered guys, since he was actually against most major villains (Trigon, Titans of Myth, Citadel) completely out of his league.

And in the end for me it is more important what the charcters do in the comics on regular basis, not what is said about them or skills that they only have in one single issue and that came never up again (and actually in modern comics most members of the bat family have hardly any real detective cases).

And in Young Justice Dick was in season 1 so compent it is hard to imagine that the Tim in this universe could surpass him in anything.

#12 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (2894 posts) - - Show Bio

@aahz said:

@nathaniel_christopher:

Like I said I read the only the original (60s and 70s) and new (80s) Teen Titans, and at least in these runs I really can't recall him coming up with any really amazing plans. And the comments in the 80s that he was needed as a leader felt more as a justification, why he was on the team with all the super powered guys, since he was actually against most major villains (Trigon, Titans of Myth, Citadel) completely out of his league.

And in the end for me it is more important what the charcters do in the comics on regular basis, not what is said about them or skills that they only have in one single issue and that came never up again (and actually in modern comics most members of the bat family have hardly any real detective cases).

And in Young Justice Dick was in season 1 so compent it is hard to imagine that the Tim in this universe could surpass him in anything.

Being a leader is more than just coming up with amazing plans. If that's all it took then there'd really be no issue with Batman as a leader. It also involves being able to rally and inspire others, as well as coordinate them in battle properly, all which Dick is better suited to do than Bruce.

I'd honestly suggest either reading New Teen Titans, the Outsiders, and both of Dick's times in the Justice League again, becase there's ample evidence of his leadership skill in all. It's only, as you say, the detective ability that doesn't have many showings. But as you also say, that applies to every member of the Bat Family honestly, and has for years. Tim's major claim to fame was always figuring out Bruce and Dick's identities (Which I still have issue with as it literally relied on a one in a million occurence) After that his showings are few and far between, beyond people just complimenting him. I'd even say that Bruce's claim to the "World's Greatest Detective" title now exists just because it has for so many years at this point. (The Arkham Video Game series is really one of the few places where I feel his detective skill is used on a consistent basis.)

What exactly does him surpassing Dick in Young Justice matter? Overall he hasn't surpassed him in the comics either. His claim to fame is again in his hyped intelligence and detective ability, which as I pointed out wasn't extremely obvious from his first appearances. However, within Young Justice I feel he's portrayed just as well as he is in Batman the Animated Series, handling himself with confidence in most cases, and doing just fine amongst heroes that are more powerful than him.

#13 Posted by Aahz (853 posts) - - Show Bio

It's only, as you say, the detective ability that doesn't have many showings. But as you also say, that applies to every member of the Bat Family honestly, and has for years. Tim's major claim to fame was always figuring out Bruce and Dick's identities (Which I still have issue with as it literally relied on a one in a million occurence) After that his showings are few and far between, beyond people just complimenting him. I'd even say that Bruce's claim to the "World's Greatest Detective" title now exists just because it has for so many years at this point.

In the new 52 Tim made at least some real detective work to find it out, the pre crisis version always had the problem that the whole story didn't made much sense after Zero Hour when they set that most people believe that Batman is just an urban legend, since that contradicts that Tim saw Batman in Haleys Circus and that he saw Dicks quadrupole somersault in TV.


Overall he hasn't surpassed him in the comics either. His claim to fame is again in his hyped intelligence and detective ability, which as I pointed out wasn't extremely obvious from his first appearances. However, within Young Justice I feel he's portrayed just as well as he is in Batman the Animated Series, handling himself with confidence in most cases, and doing just fine amongst heroes that are more powerful than him.

In the comics Tim is at least presented better than Dick when it comes to computers and similar stuff. In YJ Dick was also extrem good hacker.

And the DCAU Tim (who has much more in common with Jason or Dick than with the actual Tim) was much funnier and had the advantage that Dick was already in collage when the series started and he is never shown as a young Robin in this series (iirc not even in the episode about his origin).

Btw. has DC a real detective series at the moment.

#14 Edited by Aahz (853 posts) - - Show Bio

It's only, as you say, the detective ability that doesn't have many showings. But as you also say, that applies to every member of the Bat Family honestly, and has for years. Tim's major claim to fame was always figuring out Bruce and Dick's identities (Which I still have issue with as it literally relied on a one in a million occurence) After that his showings are few and far between, beyond people just complimenting him. I'd even say that Bruce's claim to the "World's Greatest Detective" title now exists just because it has for so many years at this point.

In the new 52 Tim made at least some real detective work to find it out, the pre crisis version always had the problem that the whole story didn't made much sense after Zero Hour when they set that most people believe that Batman is just an urban legend, since that contradicts that Tim saw Batman in Haleys Circus and that he saw Dicks quadrupole somersault in TV.

Overall he hasn't surpassed him in the comics either. His claim to fame is again in his hyped intelligence and detective ability, which as I pointed out wasn't extremely obvious from his first appearances. However, within Young Justice I feel he's portrayed just as well as he is in Batman the Animated Series, handling himself with confidence in most cases, and doing just fine amongst heroes that are more powerful than him.

In the comics Tim is at least presented better than Dick when it comes to computers and similar stuff. In YJ Dick was also extrem good hacker.

And the DCAU Tim (who has much more in common with Jason or Dick than with the actual Tim) was much funnier and had the advantage that Dick was already in collage when the series started and he is never shown as a young Robin in this series (iirc not even in the episode about his origin).

Btw. has DC a real detective series at the moment.

@jayaaerow:

Creates a Kill Switch within his Costume to combat Prankster whenever he blacked out his lens. (New 52)(Nightwing 24)

Thats not really an impressive feat. Thats just a switch that shuts down all electronics in his suit, it is like preventing a computer from beeing hacked by turning it off and it was iirc not even his own idea. And if had just turned of the his internet connection (or what ever it was the prankster used to get access to his system) before fighting the prankster he wouden't even need a kill switch.

#15 Posted by JayAaerow (565 posts) - - Show Bio

@aahz

I see what you mean on YJ Tim but don't forget wheas Dick Grayson Robin was ALREADY experienced for a number of years, Tim was stating Finishing Year 1/Starting Year 2 in Young Justice so yes, it makes complete sense he didn't look like he could compete with YJ Robin cause he didn't have the experience like S1 Dick Grayson. If he had the same and you put them together for comparison, It be a lot closer. That really comes down to YJ's pacing and how long they gave Tim Drake Robin screentime. Which is not much. The Batfamily altogether along with others did get reduced screentime (Like Night "He doesn't do much" wing and Bat "who and where is she" girl) If memory serves. It focused on other super-powered heroes.

Concerning the Kill-Switch thing, that was just listing a feat. Batman was taught how to hack so he didn't come up with anti-hacking capabilities ALL on his own. He learned of a practical method and applied it (although I don't know why he needed help cause he should have decent hacking capabilities. He hacked an alien computer in Tameranian Pre-52. No joke. And JL teleporters). And Prankster had a habit of doing so quickly and surprised him also.

@nathaniel_christopher

Thanks for suming up everything. And I agree on the fact that a lot of the Tim's "claims to fame" rest on repeated heresy rather then showcasing it over and over again in good, noteworthy stories. Tim has been subject to this for far too long and I actually get agitated. All these characters comments yet I don't see him do much or "be relevant" because writer can't put in the time for Tim. At least with Dick, I can say he's a exceptional leader and Detective, I could point you to New Teen Titans, Titans (One of the Volume Book is good and other bleh), Outsiders (same case as the last one because Dick leads an incantation is good and then terrible in another. Writer-related), Who is Donna Troy (a specific story), The Black Mirror, etc. I have noteworthy stories with Dick Grayson showcasing these skills. It's not anyone saying "He's the World's Greatest Detective" 1K times. Batman has stories showcasing that and that...so it really works super effectively.

With Tim, you just point me too people complimenting him. Compliments are nice but you gotta show it also. Otherwise, you're totally being lazy and trying to do something with a character with minimal work. ._. That's how I've seen it at least. And plus, something that irks me is that with him and computer operations....he's outdone by Oracle and when he was still relevant and around, Jean-Paul Valley. Hopefully, they can explore the more sciency-side of Tim. Like he was doing all that cloning business. Stuff like that can set him apart. I love the "Robin Nest" thing in Eternal at least. Because I can see where these claims are going too! I just want it shown, not told.

#16 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (2894 posts) - - Show Bio

@aahz said:
@nathaniel_christopher said:

It's only, as you say, the detective ability that doesn't have many showings. But as you also say, that applies to every member of the Bat Family honestly, and has for years. Tim's major claim to fame was always figuring out Bruce and Dick's identities (Which I still have issue with as it literally relied on a one in a million occurence) After that his showings are few and far between, beyond people just complimenting him. I'd even say that Bruce's claim to the "World's Greatest Detective" title now exists just because it has for so many years at this point.

In the new 52 Tim made at least some real detective work to find it out, the pre crisis version always had the problem that the whole story didn't made much sense after Zero Hour when they set that most people believe that Batman is just an urban legend, since that contradicts that Tim saw Batman in Haleys Circus and that he saw Dicks quadrupole somersault in TV.

@nathaniel_christopher said:

Overall he hasn't surpassed him in the comics either. His claim to fame is again in his hyped intelligence and detective ability, which as I pointed out wasn't extremely obvious from his first appearances. However, within Young Justice I feel he's portrayed just as well as he is in Batman the Animated Series, handling himself with confidence in most cases, and doing just fine amongst heroes that are more powerful than him.

In the comics Tim is at least presented better than Dick when it comes to computers and similar stuff. In YJ Dick was also extrem good hacker.

And the DCAU Tim (who has much more in common with Jason or Dick than with the actual Tim) was much funnier and had the advantage that Dick was already in collage when the series started and he is never shown as a young Robin in this series (iirc not even in the episode about his origin).

Btw. has DC a real detective series at the moment.

Right, but again what i'm saying is that saying Tim never showed any possibility of equaling Dick in skill doesn't make much sense when you take into context the timeframe he was shown in and compare it to Dick's. Within Young Justice, Tim isn't shown to be a slouch by any means. He shows all the same abilities that Dick does, just to a lesser extent, which makes sense because he again hasn't been Robin all that long. Whereas a point is made of pointing out that while Dick might be the youngest member of the team physically, he's also the most experienced. So while Tim might be the same age as Dick was when he first appeared (And i'm not sure on that, he seemed to be slightly older) he doesn't have an equivalent amount of experience to back it up.

DCAU Tim is an amalgamation of of Post-Crisis Jason Todd and Post-Crisis Tim Drake. I can't think of anything he takes from Dick's character at all honestly. Which is then made funny retroactively, as Jason Todd from the Arkham Series then has a bit of his history/characterization taken from Tim Drake from the DCAU.

By detective series do you mean a series that is just about a hero doing detective work? Because if so then I don't think there is. It's actually something of a shame given how many different series there are just consisting of the Bat Family members. I've always felt that at least one should just focus on either Batman, or switch between the various characters, just doing detective work. He can still fight villains obviously, but a solid detective case should be at the center of it all.

@jayaaerow Basically. If you ask me for places you can go to read some good Batman feats or some good Nightwing feats, I can pick out various trades that'd be good places to start. Ask me where to go for Tim Drakes amazing detective skill and i'll mostly draw a blank. (Ask me for stories where he shows solid fighting abilities however and that's a different question altogether that I could easily answer) With that specific skill being something that he's so well known for it should honestly be utilized more. Though that again goes well for the entire Bat Family, which consists of the "children" of the World's Greatest Detective.

#17 Posted by Aahz (853 posts) - - Show Bio

DCAU Tim is an amalgamation of of Post-Crisis Jason Todd and Post-Crisis Tim Drake. I can't think of anything he takes from Dick's character at all honestly.

His personality and relation with Bruce was much closer to Dicks and Jasons that to Tims (who was older, more serious and lived with his own family for most of his run). The only tning the both Tims had in common was that they were Batmanfanboys, ha never really was shown to have Tims trademark detective and computer skills.

#18 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (2894 posts) - - Show Bio

@aahz said:
@nathaniel_christopher said:

DCAU Tim is an amalgamation of of Post-Crisis Jason Todd and Post-Crisis Tim Drake. I can't think of anything he takes from Dick's character at all honestly.

His personality and relation with Bruce was much closer to Dicks and Jasons that to Tims (who was older, more serious and lived with his own family for most of his run). The only tning the both Tims had in common was that they were Batmanfanboys, ha never really was shown to have Tims trademark detective and computer skills.

No it wasn't. Tim was an orphan who originally lived on the street and took part in petty crimes. He starts living with Bruce because its revealed that his disappeared dad had been killed while working for some criminals. That's a copy and paste of Jason Todd. It's only similar to Dick in that he starts living at Wayne Manor, because that's a similarity that Jason shares as well. During his tenure as Robin in both The New Batman Adventures and the Batman Adventures comic series, Tim's portrayed as having a rebellious streak, which is used to place him in dangerous situations, just as Jason's did, and there's even a point where he comes close to killing a criminal, just as Jason did. Then, just like Jason, his career as Robin ends in a horrific way, with the largest difference being that Tim survives. (Which as I said previously, then leads to retroactive humor as the Arkhamverse adapts part of this for Jason Todd's origin)

During the same series Tim showed a fair amount of knwoledge and skill, in terms of both detective work and computers. His costume is then, like Dick Grayson's Robin costume in this series, similar to his comic book counterparts, with longer leggings. He was then also an admirer of Batman before he joined up with him, just as he was in the comics.

These are all well known facts, which can be seen by simply watching the series, the film, and reading the comic companion as well. Both Bruce Timm and Paul Dini have also stated this in interviews that DCAU Tim is a combination of comic Tim and Jason, with the interview itself being included on the TBAS DVD set.

#19 Posted by Aahz (853 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah but the similarities he shares with Dick (ad at the same time with Jason) are bigger than any similarities with Tim.

He doesn't even use a Bo-Staff. And he actually had this costume design first and it was used in the comics much later for Tim.

And in the end of the Day his biggest similarity he shares with Tim is the name.

#20 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (2894 posts) - - Show Bio

@aahz said:

Yeah but the similarities he shares with Dick (ad at the same time with Jason) are bigger than any similarities with Tim.

He doesn't even use a Bo-Staff. And he actually had this costume design first and it was used in the comics much later for Tim.

And in the end of the Day his biggest similarity he shares with Tim is the name.

No its not, and he doesn't share any similarities with Dick, minus working with Bruce (Which all Robin's share) and living with Bruce, which again comes from Jason based on the method it happened through. The rest of the similarities I already pointed out and you just ignored.

A Bo-Staff is just one thing that sets Tim apart from other Robins, so him not using it is fairly irrelevant. And Tim started using that costume in the comics as a direct reference to the animated series. Doesn't change the fact that the original looks more like Tim Drakes original comic outfit than it does either Dick Grayson or Jason Todds.

#21 Posted by Aahz (853 posts) - - Show Bio

@nathaniel_christopher: But Dicks Robin costume in the DCAU was even closer to Tims original one. So it make sense his predecessor didn't ware scaly pants.

#22 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (2894 posts) - - Show Bio

@aahz said:

@nathaniel_christopher: But Dicks Robin costume in the DCAU was even closer to Tims original one. So it make sense his predecessor didn't ware scaly pants.

Ok? I already noted that Dick's DCAU costume was also basically Tim's comic costume. Doesn't change anything I said.

#23 Posted by Aahz (853 posts) - - Show Bio

See it like this, if you would see a episode with him without knowing his background story, his civilian name and that Dick allready exists in this series, who would you think is this Robin?

#24 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (2894 posts) - - Show Bio

@aahz said:

See it like this, if you would see a episode with him without knowing his background story, his civilian name and that Dick allready exists in this series, who would you think is this Robin?

Tim or Dick. Tim due to the younger age and costume and Dick because statistically speaking he has more appearances outside of the comics than any of the other Robins. Therefore, he'd naturally be one of my guesses no matter what, because based on simple math if a person's going to be Robin in an adaptation its going to be Dick Grayson. And really the only thing that would keep me from guessing Jason Todd would be the exact opposite reason why I might guess Dick Grayson: Jason Todd barely ever appears in other works outside of the comics. And its only in the past few years that that's even changed, with the film adaptation of Under the Hood, Young Justice (Where he was dead and therefore only got a posthumous appearance), and Arkham Knight. He is literally the last person I would ever guess to be showing up as Robin in an animated series.

Coincidentally, none of this helps your point.

#25 Posted by Aahz (853 posts) - - Show Bio

Does anybody know where this scan is coming from? It seems to be the only source that mentions Dicks ability to read people pre flash point.

#26 Posted by mysoulz (790 posts) - - Show Bio

When Dick took over as Batman, I like to point out that Grant Morrison is one of the few writers at the time that done a good job of utilizing his detective skills in Batman and Robin. Dick definitely deduced that Bruce was still alive and stuck in a different timeline, while Tim believed he was alive by faith. There has been contradictions on who's the better the detective between Dick and Tim. Tim at one point acknowledge that he's nowhere near the detective that Dick is, but Dick stated that Tim is the better detective during the Ressurection of Ra's Al Ghul arc. Towards the end of the JLA series around pre-relaunch, Dick admitted he's the second best detective now that Bruce returned, which is another contradiction.

@aahz:That scan is from the 52 series. I believe it's issue 25.

#27 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (2894 posts) - - Show Bio

@mysoulz said:

When Dick took over as Batman, I like to point out that Grant Morrison is one of the few writers at the time that done a good job of utilizing his detective skills in Batman and Robin. Dick definitely deduced that Bruce was still alive and stuck in a different timeline, while Tim believed he was alive by faith. There has been contradictions on who's the better the detective between Dick and Tim. Tim at one point acknowledge that he's nowhere near the detective that Dick is, but Dick stated that Tim is the better detective during the Ressurection of Ra's Al Ghul arc. Towards the end of the JLA series around pre-relaunch, Dick admitted he's the second best detective now that Bruce returned, which is another contradiction.

@aahz:That scan is from the 52 series. I believe it's issue 25.

On the subject of contradictions, I recently re-read my trade of the Robin series right after Infinite Crisis, 52, and during One Year Later, the time where Cassandra goes missing and Tim is framed for "Batgirl's" death, by Cassandra herself. When Tim is about to head out and start investigating who framed him, the following exchange occurs.

Alfred: Masters Bruce and Dick returned yesterday...I expect you'll be turning over the matter to

Tim: No way. Cassie was my friend, too. And for whatever reason, this was set up for me, not them.

Alfred: With respect, Master Tim, when one has the services of the World's Greatest Detectives at one's disposal, it seems foolish not to take advantage of them.

Tim: Sounds like something Bruce might say, only y'know, without the accent...or the politeness. But you're forgetting something, Alfred...I got this gig because i'm a pretty solid detective myself. Catch you later.

#28 Posted by mysoulz (790 posts) - - Show Bio

@nathaniel_christopher: Nice. Haha. Thanks for sharing that. I haven't read much of Tim, but I'm going to pick up more of his trades. Yea, I remembered in Batman Year 3 where Tim made a brief first cameo appearance, Batman pretty much admitted that Dick was able to solve a case before he did. It was an impressive detective showing for Dick. I do think writers sometimes tend to give Tim as the world's greatest detective other than Bruce for better rep (as Ra's al Ghul notes Tim as "the detective") and to have a greater distinguish from the other Robins. Around the "Road to No Man's Land" story line, Dick seemed to have higher showing in both criminology and observation with other Batman villains when him and Tim partnered up to patrol Gotham. It was to portray that Nightwing having a higher experience around that time.

Around the relaunch in the Nightwing title, he sort of lacked his detective skills around the first several issues, which was one of negatives under Kyle Higgins imo.

There always have been contradictions on who takes the second slot as the greatest detective between Dick and Tim.

#29 Posted by Aahz (853 posts) - - Show Bio

On the other hand, in Robin #0 (published during Zero Hour) there was a team up between Tim and a teenage version of Dick (don't ask me from which reality or alternate timeline) and there they showed that Tim was the better detective and Dick the better acrobat ...

I would interpret it that way that Tim is a better detective than Dick was at the same age, but is not necessary better when you compare him with the older and more experienced version of Dick. And in comparison to other fictional detectives no member of the Batfamly has really impressive and constant showings in this area.

#30 Posted by Aahz (853 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd honestly suggest either reading New Teen Titans, the Outsiders, and both of Dick's times in the Justice League again, becase there's ample evidence of his leadership skill in all.

I had a look into Outsiders and Titans, but I didn't found him that impressive, in both series he behaved very Batman like (in an negative paranoid loner way), and Outsiders even fired him because of this behaviour.

#31 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (2894 posts) - - Show Bio

@aahz said:
@nathaniel_christopher said:

I'd honestly suggest either reading New Teen Titans, the Outsiders, and both of Dick's times in the Justice League again, becase there's ample evidence of his leadership skill in all.

I had a look into Outsiders and Titans, but I didn't found him that impressive, in both series he behaved very Batman like (in an negative paranoid loner way), and Outsiders even fired him because of this behaviour.

Not really about whether or not you think its impressive, as the point was about Dick displaying leadership, which he does in both series. Dick behaves in a Batman-like way because he's like Batman.. His behavior in New Teen Titans and Outsiders however is completely different, specifically because he's not trying to form any connection to the team at all, which is something he excels at, whereas every iteration of the Titans has always been like his family. I really wouldn't say he acted like Batman in the New Teen Titans at all. Maybe there are a few instances, but certainly not for the majority of the series. (He's not a paranoid loner in the New Teen Titans) Whereas Outsiders is again a series in which an important plot point for Dick's character arc was that he was acting more like Bruce. Heck the very first issues features a talk between him and Bruce where he goes into some detail about how he plans for the Outsiders to function completely differently from teams like the JLA and the Titans. Death and Return of Donna Troy and The Insiders are two trades that involved the Outsiders where Dick's leadership skills come into play both times. Not only just in terms of actual combat (Where he is seen in different panels pointing out things the team needs to worry about) but also before battles as well, when the plan is being drawn up or they're going over their enemies.

Dick's leadership abilities (And really leadership abilities for any character) are displayed within one or two panels at a time and then the story moves on, without any comment tending to be made. For example, just looking into the Death and Return of Donna Troy trade, there's a small panel of Dick telling the group (Consisting of Titans and Outsiders) "Defensive maneuvers only! We're invading their turf remember!" Jade responds "Are you kidding me?!" with Dick then responding "No! In fact, retreat back to the ruins. We need to get out of the open fields!"

That's an example of him operating as a leader in the field. Not only is he coming up with a plan, he's coordinating his troops at the same time, and also taking notice of the terrain and the movements they should take to boost their defense. And it again all takes place within two panels, wherein other people are also talking and a bunch of fighting is taking place. Look further in the trade, when Donna is fighting the group and you have Dick caution everyone that "Shes's going for our strongest members first!" after which you then have him on the next page making it clear to Wonder Girl that she needs to be ready for her moment to step in and face Donna. He then later is the one who manages to phase Donna by having Raven use her powers to mess with Donna's head. And again when he orders a few members to tunnel beneath the city, which is what finally serves to end the conflict and snap Donna out of her madness/hypnosis.

None of this is what you'd call a major focus of the comic, but its all there nonetheless.

#32 Posted by Aahz (853 posts) - - Show Bio
@nathaniel_christopher said:

I really wouldn't say he acted like Batman in the New Teen Titans at all.

In the 1999-2003 Titans run, he did. He had secrets from his team mates didn't trust the new members with his identity and it was even said that they rebuild the Titans so he doesn't becomes like Batman.

#33 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (2894 posts) - - Show Bio

@aahz said:
@nathaniel_christopher said:

I really wouldn't say he acted like Batman in the New Teen Titans at all.

In the 1999-2003 Titans run, he did. He had secrets from his team mates didn't trust the new members with his identity and it was even said that they rebuild the Titans so he doesn't becomes like Batman.

New Teen Titans ended in 1996.

#34 Edited by SmoothJammin (2558 posts) - - Show Bio

For whatever it's worth. I believe it's from an 80's DC encyclopedia.. don't quote me on that though lol.

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