Most people who dislike the New-52 do so because it eliminated 30 years of character development and story, and in some cases (Wally West, Donna Troy) completely removed the character completely. If you're new to comics then the New-52 is nice because everything is relatively new and easy to grasp and get into (well except the giant mess that is the current GL franchise, that stuff is impenetrable).

@dredeuced: I can definitely see your point. Who knows, maybe in a few years they will say that this stuff happened in an alternate universe or something. I am a Flash fan as well, but is Wally completely wiped out from continuity? I wasn't sure. And as for GL, well, it's a good thing that I am not a fan of the character. Loving the Batman stuff, Flash (Barry) is a fun read, and Justice League is just plain awesome.

100% gone, Barry isn't even involved with Iris anymore. Didio has outright stated to Manapul that Wally isn't allowed to come back even though Manapul wanted to include Wally with Iris(who has shown up but is a completely gutted and changed character). I'm really bitter about it all because Wally was seriously a long running character with a crazy amount of development -- Waid and Johns runs with him were some of the best DC has had over the years, and he's the only main, staple character who got dicked over because Didio wanted Barry.

Wally could come back however it is probably not going to happen in the near future. But I wouldn't rule it out that it could happen in the future.

Don't really care, it doesn't matter if they bring back Wally eventually because the entire character we've come to know won't exist -- there's no Linda (which is tragic, Linda and Wally are one of the best written couples in DC Lore -- even if they broke up Superman and Lois in New-52, Lois still EXISTS), Bart's story (which was specifically tied to Wally) has completely changed since he's in the New-52, Barry never died in this reality so his overcoming of that grief won't matter, there's no Zoom trial he had to go through. His friendship with Nightwing doesn't exist -- but batfamily fans clearly don't care about that. All his crossovers with Kyle? Poof! Kyle doesn't even remember him anymore.

He's gone, kaput. Even if they brought him back it's irrelevant as Barry's carrying the title and Didio's made that painfully clear. Jay's on an alternate reality and the rest of the Flash Family is deleted because they don't happen to have a stupid bat or giant S on their chest, so they don't get their own spinoffs and a Titan team membership like the bat brats and superkids.

It's like they don't get WHY Flash: Rebirth sunk Flash sales. The only saving grace of the New Flash series is that Manapul and Buccellato is one of their few competent writer teams, and even they wanted to include Wally from the beginning of the arc.

Well don't lose all hope, that is a pretty depressing read though lol. Hope somebody makes Didio(?) see sense - IMO, Wally is just as good a character as Nightwing, if not better.

I think the core problem is that DC has become so paranoid and borderline desperate about sales. The New 52 came about Warner Bros. demanding them to do something big or whatever it takes to get sales up. After initial success, they're scrambling to find ways to keep them up. So we keep getting all this hype/crossovers mandated, constant changes of directions and creative teams, etc. It's an unfortunate situation. A lot of people keep saying "fire these editors" but that's an ignorant oversimplification of the issue. Now personally I do think Bob Harras has been bad for DC, but that's not the sole problem.

I do think there is a way for DC to make a more stable ship and still get those sales up. They just need to be smarter about how they go about it. Here's hoping they figure it out.

@mr_holmes: I always enjoyed your comments at CBR, good to see you around these parts.

Thanks Jake!

I find it poignant that this is still pinned, b/c we pretty much still need to be told not to do it :D

LOL, didn't realize it was still pinned.

Still pinned after 2years? Interesting, i personally dont read New 52 Batman that much but everything else that i saw was kinda good (Not perfect).

Some one care to inform me i had an family emergency and ive been gone for like 3 months whats happening.

Why is this still pinned?

@lightsout: @jake_fury: @rouflex: @doctor_fate500: @rustyroy: with all

that bad writing (okay some are good but the bad out weighs the good)

bad characterization of are favorite characters

bad continuety

still missing in action characters

horrible new costume

with all that a few words come to mind

we should've jumped ._.

Nearly 3 years later, and this thread is officially a trip.

@jaken7: hahaha, seemed like a good idea at the time.

And it was! Wasn't ever gonna do anything, but it was a nice effort nonetheless.

@jaken7: hopefully it saved the life of one DC fan somewhere. Haha

I remember reading this years ago. I think this was before I joined ComicVine. I still have yet to jump..but I know I should. xD

Meh. To be honest, the only franchise/continuity that I really think was completely f#@ked up by the reboot was the Teen Titans. I mean, its hardly recognizable now. But, even that hasn't suffered irreparable damage. Cyborg and Starfire are still being handled pretty well in books that aren't Teen Titans. Also, when you really think about it, the last really good Teen Titans run was Geoff Johns and Mike McKone's run from over a decade ago, so... I have at least reasonable hopes for the new series under Pfeifer.

Green Lantern is almost unchanged, Batman is fairly the same with some changes here and there, Superman is at least recognizable, etc. And, while I miss the JLA of old, the new Justice League is at least kind of interesting. Plus, I don't really miss the exactcontinuity that the JLA had pre-reboot (which itself was redefined and rebooted after COIE and again in the late 90s) more so than I miss the idea of the League as this long-standing group that has had multiple members come in an out, etc.

@zeeguy91: If i may ask what exactly is going on ? I just wanted to know been out of the country for awhile

@doctor_fate500: Um, isn't it obvious. We're discussing the New 52.

@zeeguy91: I would say the JSA and Question got ruined as well. The absence of certain characters also sucks.

Years later, this surprisingly is still relevant lol, especially now with the Wally West fiasco

Being new to comics, I'd say the nu52 is pretty awesome/

@jake_fury: See what you made me do?

Now I'm falling to my death.

Good Day to you sir!

@jake_fury said:

The fan in me endured for twenty-plus years with DC, never giving up on their titles even when the Marvel fans at one comic book store openly harrassed anyone buying a DC comic book, but the abomination that is New 52 left it on life support.

The nausea from The Man of Steel film may have killed it off altogether.

If the Justice League movie is just more of Snyder's idolatry of violence and shadenfreude, then that's it for me.

This^.

As much as I can understand the frustation for long term fans, if it wasn't for the New 52 I wouldn't had the oppertunity to get into comics.

@bruxae said:

I'm glad you have had the opportunity to get into comics. I love comics.

But I think you can understand why I wish you had had the opportunity to get into good comics instead of New 52.

Finding out a new fan entered comics after New 52 is like having steak and asparagus ready with rich chocolate cake for dessert and then finding out you came to dinner when we had only six month old spam and dry Top Ramen (but no water to boil it in) and a half-eaten Twinkie for dessert.

Sure, you have may enjoyed crunching the uncooked Ramen, avoided food poisoning from the spam, and found the teeth marks in the Twinkie added character to it, but it's not our best food forward. And you may end up becoming so accustomed to uncooked Ramen and expired spam and New 52 that you don't recognize steak, asparagus, or good writing when DC finally gives you some in ten years after some Crisis blows up New 52.

No one wants to welcome someone to the worst their home has to offer, but in welcoming you to DC while it was putting out New 52, that is just what we did. The fact that you might like it only makes it worse.

@name_already_chosen: From what I've read so far, I liked forever evil, the Aquaman books, the Green Lantern books and the Flash comics. So I'd say it's pretty good. But it is what got me to check out older comics and, well, comics in general.

@larryashlynn said:

If you likethe New52 version of them, you would have LOVED the versions that were destroyed to make room for New52.

If you think the New52 is pretty good, you would have considered the real DC that preceded New52 to be GREAT.

And we older fans know a new fan like you deserves something great with versions you would love, but we have to watch as you get stuck with merely "pretty good" versions you can "like" -- and as long as you're willing to settle for "pretty good", the money people at DC have no motivation to return to greatness.

Why do people these days accept "pretty good" as good enough? I don't want a physician who was a C average in medical school, I don't want a politician who rates a C average for service to the average voter, and I don't want my comic book company to be rewarded with sales for stooping to a C average in storytelling when the stories before New 52 prove that it used to be capable of much, much better.

Fans of mediocrity are what enable DC to put out tripe like New 52, because fans of mediocrity don't bother to demand anything better.

Fans of New 52 are what keep DC mediocre, because fans of New 52 are satisfied when DC remains mediocre and when DC never strives for the heights it sometimes reached during the comic book eras which preceded New 52.

If it weren't for the New 52, I probably wouldn't be comic fan right now. Comics changed my life and I am very grateful to have them.

@dianaxkal: glad to hear it! i am 38 and still love them.

People seriously need to raise their standards if the New 52 is keeping them fans of comic books. Read an indie title for god's sake, there's plenty of superior reading material than what DC and Marvel are currently putting out.

I will jump. They killed my Wally West.

I agree with this statement.

LOL at this still being pinned...with Marvel rebooting perhaps I should go with a "Marvel fans - Jump!"

Pilasy:La Voix d'un homme

dc is making a lot of risky decisions is my opinion, but I said the same thing about new 52 and loved it, so more power to them

New 52 is a success and even contributed to marvel now response!? This is sticky?

I was super excited about the New 52. I am one of the fans who pretty much ignored most of DC comics ALL the time and never really got into any of their properties, except the for the brief Milestone universe. THEN the New 52 came out and Stormwatch became my favorite series for the first 19 issues before the Jim Starlin took over writing it, the inexplicable timeline reboot, the changed cast of characters, and the deteriorated artwork quality. Bereft of visual appeal, and after its complete removal from the main DC universe, the series died the death it deserved. I'm glad they brought back the original team for the final issue. It was like admitting they made a completely stupid mistake that drove their sales away and ended the series pre-maturely. I also liked the Mister Terrific series for the first 3 issues, Ravagers for the first story arc, and the new Teen Titans for the first story arc. All these series fizzled out for me after that. And Mr. Terrific didn't even survive at all. Same with Static Shock (an actual Milestone HERO in a DC Solo excited me), his series crashed and burned.

I also became somewhat of a Wonder-Woman fan, and have given Superman a chance. I shun the Bat-Verse because it wants to set itself in a gritty world, but asks readers to suspend too much disbelief to make it work ("gritty criminals" who never use guns as their main weapons, giving unarmed child-vigilantes a chance to engage and defeat them in melee combat). I shun the Lantern verse. Tried Flash, but thought it bored me - QUICKLY.

I'm going to give the new Green Lantern a try. I've stuck it out with the JL, so I'll continue with it, along with the new version of Superman (to see if this version of him sticks or wrecks). I'll also stay with WW. Otherwise, DC has officially taken a WAAAAY backseat for me again.

@flashknight: thats one of the most cancerous things iv ever heard

With Rebirth coming in June, anyone feel like jumping yet? I'm tired of variant covers, #1s, titles that make it to less than 60 sometimes, or even 15 and then comes a reboot, oh I'm sorry, a 'rebirth'.

Can't we have great stories, less 'events' that tie up 3/4 of the books with crap for 3+ months, better character development, better artists?

On the up side: I like that DC is going 2x a month with most at 2.99 in June. I just hope the 'rebirth' is what the folks at DC said it will be, bringing back the legacy of the characters, the history, what made them icons in the first place.

Speaking of iconic characters, where's Wally West, the Flash, friend of Nightwing, had a mad crush/obsession with Raven, the guy that made the Speed Force his toy, the guy that ran for 10000s of years to beat Death! Where is he, not the new guy that stole his ID. That Wally is not the character I want to read about.

I was just a casual reader of some of the DC classics prior to the New 52, so when the New 52 came out I got on board and took the titles more seriously because it felt a lot more accessible getting into Number 1s etc, which was obviously DC's point. It was just so recent though - 5 years is nothing to a 36 year old like me. The idea that they're resetting the clock again already is pretty strange from an artistic perspective but absolutely clear from a financial one. I'm willing to cut companies like DC a lot of slack because unless they're making money they won't be making comics and I won't be reading them.

What is more confusing is the almost Orwellian doublethink of DC claiming they are looking to the past for all that was great while also looking towards the future and building on fresh things. Which is it? All the rhetoric about solving the problems of continuity with the New 52 seems to have been forgotten if they're returning to how things used to be.

It's all speculation though at this stage of course. I'm definitely still going to buy all my favourite titles. It's going to be awesome, basically because I think the standard of the scripts and art across most of the titles has been, and will remain, very good and that's really all that counts.

No, I dislike the New-52 because :

• DC's major heroes have been messed up : Batman and Superman.
• Timeline and Chronologie is all messed up
• Too many crossovers
• Too many title under the Batfamily and Superman-family are useless and should have been replaced by caracters that everyone would of liked Booster Gold, Spirit, Wally West, ...
• Batman and Green Lanterns weren't truely rebooted !
• The old Lobo got replaced !
• Big pointless stories : Future Ends and Convergence

I agree the GL franchise is messy, because it wasn't a true reboot. But it is one of the best franchise of the New 52, pick up any story and you'll love it.

Don't give me wrong some reboots were good : Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Swamp Thing and I would add Flash because it had good ideas even if the story could be better. And some other titles are fun too read : Batman & Robin, Justice League Dark, Forever Evil, Batman Eternal, ...

New 52 was a interresting idea, but poorly done by DC.

@jb681131:

1: Batman has been great under Snyder and Morrison's pens. I don't know what you're complaining about there. Superman has definitely been messed up, but he was messed up pre-52 too. Same editorial team has oversight on the Superman franchise which is why nothing got better.

2: Agreed. Poorly handled reboot with no sense of the timeline they were creating.

3: New 52 had less crossovers than Pre-52

4: New 52, despite an egregious amount of Bat titles, has had less Bat titles than Pre 52. I believe Superman stayed the same and has even lost some titles as the New 52 has gone on.

5: Yep. That's not a bad thing, imo. Morrison's Batman and Johns' GL getting to their conclusions was nice. It just should've been handled better.

6: Ok. I don't care about Lobo but if that's your bag I understand. It sucks losing a character you liked for a crappier "modernized" version.

7: Convergence wasn't a New 52 thing. It was a "We're moving and we need filler for 2 months" thing. Something like that would've happened no matter the era. Futures End was trash, I agree.

The Flash was the worst thing about the reboot. The removal of Legacy from The Flash is like taking the the Bat out of Batman.

@dredeuced: I don't totally agree with you :

1 - Morrison knew well who the Batman was, it intergrated well who he was, the stories were complexe and the scenarios well constructed. Snyder seems like he doesn't know anything about the bat. His only good stories are Gates of Gotham and the Owl arc, both about a mysterious past that you have a hard time believing, but they were still based on nice ideas. Then Snyder wrote 3 stories about the Joker. Batman's detective skill where absent, missing, not there. The plots where to big and far fetch, and didn't seem plosible at all. Death of the familly is for me the wort Batman story I read. After that about his origne arc, Zero Year, it was simply bad. For the reste I didn't read, nor care to read.

2 - we agree

3 - There are more crossover in the pre-flashpoint, I agree. But pre-flashpoint ran from 1986 to 2011, while new 52 is from 2011 to 2016. It is not the number that counts but how many by year !

4 - The new 52 Batfamily started with 10 titles !

1. Batman inc
2. Batman
3. Detective comics
4. Legends of the dark knight
5. Batman, the dark knight
6. Batgirl
7. Batwing
8. Catwoman
9. Batwoman
10. Birds of prey

This excludes mini-series and series that came later.

5 - Yes

6 - True

7 - Actually Convergence is spinoff Furture End and Earth-2

8 - I agree that it was disapointing for flash. But for the few things I read, I found that they had nice ideas with the Speed Force. Even if it's disapointing, flash was a true reboot and that was the purpose of the New 52. It should have been the same with Batman and Green Lantern.

Over exaggeration much?

I think if they wanted to do a reboot, EVERYTHING should have been rebooted - new readers like myself still had no idea which titles WERE rebooted and which weren't.