Once a heroic Jedi Knight known as Anakin Skywalker, Darth Vader was seduced by the dark side and became a dark Lord of the Sith. After severe injuries at the hands of Obi-Wan Kenobi, locking him in a metal suit, Vader would go on to terrorize the galaxy. Under the apprenticeship of Darth Sidious, Vader served as a powerful enforcer for the Galactic Empire and hunted down any surviving Jedi after Order 66. However, in spite of everything he had done, there were still remnants of good in him.
As i have to under stand something, Vader should have easily forced luke to submit, everytime luke tried to do something, rather than barily holding his own to luke and then losing his hand. and in what way (i dnt want stats) was vader 80% of sidious and how was he one of the most powerful sith lords??
As i have to under stand something, Vader should have easily forced luke to submit, everytime luke tried to do something, rather than barily holding his own to luke and then losing his hand. and in what way (i dnt want stats) was vader 80% of sidious and how was he one of the most powerful sith lords??
Read the sourcebooks. He was, and it's canon. Name me a Sith lord and I'll say whether or not Vader is more powerful (and why).
As i have to under stand something, Vader should have easily forced luke to submit, everytime luke tried to do something, rather than barily holding his own to luke and then losing his hand. and in what way (i dnt want stats) was vader 80% of sidious and how was he one of the most powerful sith lords??
Read the sourcebooks. He was, and it's canon. Name me a Sith lord and I'll say whether or not Vader is more powerful (and why).
Thats wat im saying, i dnt want source books that say he was i wanna kno what he did that was so great and how luke beat him with no real force training.
As i have to under stand something, Vader should have easily forced luke to submit, everytime luke tried to do something, rather than barily holding his own to luke and then losing his hand. and in what way (i dnt want stats) was vader 80% of sidious and how was he one of the most powerful sith lords??
Read the sourcebooks. He was, and it's canon. Name me a Sith lord and I'll say whether or not Vader is more powerful (and why).
Thats wat im saying, i dnt want source books that say he was i wanna kno what he did that was so great and how luke beat him with no real force training.
and um, darth nihilus??
Accomplishments aren't the matter in this case. This is about power. Luke had lots of training by then, 3 years. And Vader was NOT trying to kill him, thus his anger was NOT fueling him then. And Luke himself realized (later) that Vader could have killed him if he wanted to.
Vader knows a technique that can resist Force Drain. And without his drain Nihilus can do nothing (canonically) that Vader can't do, and Vader easily cripples Nihilus with a single attack.
(im not trolling) im seriously interested in what vader could do.
What were vaders powers that put him so far up there??
and wat did luke know that let him beat vader who (as anny had lots of adventures and experiences using his saber)
Didnt nihilus know more than force drain??
Like Force Scream, and lighting (vader vs lightening would trash him)
Wasnt Nihilus force grip more powerful than vaders??
What made vader so great? he was a living embodiment of the force with no real force powers??
Okay, I can tell you know little about Vader. He can Force Crush/Grip/Choke/Throw/Push/Wave/Repulse amongst other things and own people with it. He has been ambushed by Eight Jedi on Kessel and has killed 5 of them, he has defeated An'ya Kuro, the Dark Woman (one of the most powerful Jedi Masters), Celeste Morne, Ferus Olin twice, and has moved so fast when he killed Roan Lands that Ferus didn't even manage to react, much less protect his best friend from being stabbed in the heart. He can be almost invincible with his rage alone (like Sion) and does not need the Orbalisk armor (like Bane does) and is the strongest Sith Lord physically.
Nihilus knows more than force drain, sure, but none of them hurt Vader. I can asure you, he had MANY real force powers, more than enough to kill Nihilus.
Also, Lightning doesn't own Vader, that was Sidious' lightning, or in other words, the most powerful Sith Lord's lightning, plus Vader was heavily injured then. Just to tell you, Vader has a massive (if not the greatest) resistance to Force Lightning.
@FMStyyx: i think his power just decayed as time passed, due to him being more machine than man. as for why he was top dog, he was the only other powerful sith left by that point.
@FMStyyx: i think his power just decayed as time passed, due to him being more machine than man. as for why he was top dog, he was the only other powerful sith left by that point.
I'm sorry, but that is incorrect. Read my above posts. Also, Vader's prime was when he was in the suit.
(im not trolling) im seriously interested in what vader could do.
What were vaders powers that put him so far up there??
and wat did luke know that let him beat vader who (as anny had lots of adventures and experiences using his saber)
Didnt nihilus know more than force drain??
Like Force Scream, and lighting (vader vs lightening would trash him)
Wasnt Nihilus force grip more powerful than vaders??
What made vader so great? he was a living embodiment of the force with no real force powers??
Okay, I can tell you know little about Vader. He can Force Crush/Grip/Choke/Throw/Push/Wave/Repulse amongst other things and own people with it. He has been ambushed by Eight Jedi on Kessel and has killed 5 of them, he has defeated the An'ya Kuro, the Dark Woman (one of the most powerful Jedi Masters), Celeste Morne, Ferus Olin twice, and has moved so fast when he killed Roan Lands that Ferus didn't even manage to react, much less protect his best friend from being stabbed in the heart. He can be almost invincible with his rage alone (like Sion) and does not need the Orbalisk armor (like Bane does) and is the strongest Sith Lord physically.
Nihilus knows more than force drain, sure, but none of them hurt Vader. I can asure you, he had MANY real force powers, more than enough to kill Nihilus.
Also, Lightning doesn't own Vader, that was Sidious' lightning, or in other words, the most powerful Sith Lord's lightning, plus Vader was heavily injured then. Just to tell you, Vader has a massive (if not the greatest) resistance to Force Lightning.
And I never said you were trolling.
Yea thats y im asking :/
(i know but i know trolls press an press)
(vader can move quickly with robotick legs, i didnt know that)
Okay but arint those the most basic force powers?? and cant nihilus use them too?? Wasnt nihilus one of the greatest masters of the dark side??
wouldnt vaders robotic limbs be damaged if attacked with lightning??
Its just hard for me to see vader as being so great when theres others that seem like they are so much better.
vader has lots of feats, but answer one more question, nihilus can affect entire planets with his force so wouldnt he bable to counter basic force powers with the same force is that jst me wishful thinking?? again im serious was vader all that great??
Are you out of your mind? Luke is the only one in the universe other than The Emperor that could have even stood toe to toe with Vader.
Who are you talking to? And that is incorrect, Abeloth and the Ones of Mortis, namely the Son, Daughter, and Father, can not only go toe to toe with Vader, but defeat him. And badly. They will shame him. Also, Darth Plagueis is close to him in power.
@ShootingNova: where do you get your information? please dont say video games. the post about the force lightning alone makes me highly doubt, if believe at all, your info. some of your info is good, but some is......... not true.
Are you out of your mind? Luke is the only one in the universe other than The Emperor that could have even stood toe to toe with Vader.
aside from being the only other force user y was luke able to do this?? he had no REAL training, or experience so why? did obi say vader was more machine than man and that most of his force powers were lose do to the loss of most of his midi-chlorians??
(im not trolling) im seriously interested in what vader could do.
What were vaders powers that put him so far up there??
and wat did luke know that let him beat vader who (as anny had lots of adventures and experiences using his saber)
Didnt nihilus know more than force drain??
Like Force Scream, and lighting (vader vs lightening would trash him)
Wasnt Nihilus force grip more powerful than vaders??
What made vader so great? he was a living embodiment of the force with no real force powers??
Okay, I can tell you know little about Vader. He can Force Crush/Grip/Choke/Throw/Push/Wave/Repulse amongst other things and own people with it. He has been ambushed by Eight Jedi on Kessel and has killed 5 of them, he has defeated the An'ya Kuro, the Dark Woman (one of the most powerful Jedi Masters), Celeste Morne, Ferus Olin twice, and has moved so fast when he killed Roan Lands that Ferus didn't even manage to react, much less protect his best friend from being stabbed in the heart. He can be almost invincible with his rage alone (like Sion) and does not need the Orbalisk armor (like Bane does) and is the strongest Sith Lord physically.
Nihilus knows more than force drain, sure, but none of them hurt Vader. I can asure you, he had MANY real force powers, more than enough to kill Nihilus.
Also, Lightning doesn't own Vader, that was Sidious' lightning, or in other words, the most powerful Sith Lord's lightning, plus Vader was heavily injured then. Just to tell you, Vader has a massive (if not the greatest) resistance to Force Lightning.
And I never said you were trolling.
Yea thats y im asking :/
(i know but i know trolls press an press)
(vader can move quickly with robotick legs, i didnt know that)
Okay but arint those the most basic force powers?? and cant nihilus use them too?? Wasnt nihilus one of the greatest masters of the dark side??
wouldnt vaders robotic limbs be damaged if attacked with lightning??
Its just hard for me to see vader as being so great when theres others that seem like they are so much better.
vader has lots of feats, but answer one more question, nihilus can affect entire planets with his force so wouldnt he bable to counter basic force powers with the same force is that jst me wishful thinking?? again im serious was vader all that great??
No there's almost none that are better. Nihilus can't do anything you've said apart from his TK feat, which is ambiguous. No, Vader has a resistance to lightning. Nihilus was not one of the greatest master of the dark side, if anything he was the opposite, his hunger controlled him, not the other way around and he succumbed to his own condition so badly he was almost destroyed by it save for the fact that he used Essence Transfer to transfer his essence into his mask. He has done nothing else impressive AT ALL. They may be basic, but Vader has mastered them to the extent that he is one of the most proficient users of them. He has mastered a lot of others, like Kinetite (which almost nobody else save for Sidious has mastered).
@ShootingNova: where do you get your information? please dont say video games. the post about the force lightning alone makes me highly doubt, if believe at all, your info. some of your info is good, but some is......... not true.
From Sourcebooks, guides, chronologies and novels. And yes I am an EU (or SW in general) fanboy.
Are you out of your mind? Luke is the only one in the universe other than The Emperor that could have even stood toe to toe with Vader.
aside from being the only other force user y was luke able to do this?? he had no REAL training, or experience so why? did obi say vader was more machine than man and that most of his force powers were lose do to the loss of most of his midi-chlorians??
Trust me, Luke has had a lot of training and experience, read the EU. And Vader's PRIME was in his suit.
Yes, Vader was powerful. However, I have never seen any sources to suggest he was 80% as powerful as Palpatine. I have heard rumors about that being the case for years, but no citations have ever presented themselves. As well, it could be argued whether Vader is the physically strongest Sith Lord, but he would certainly be among the strongest.
How strong would you say he is compared with Darth Maul in regards to the force?
Vader is very clearly more powerful than Maul.
@VictorGrey said:
Anakin was more powerful than Vader, had a stronger connection to the force. But he's become weaker when he lost his hands.
Judging by feats alone, this is not so clear. Vader overcame many of his initial power obstacles set on him after Mustafar within months. He has achieved feats certainly comparable to Anakin, and Vader never even reached the height of his Post-Mustafar power until RotJ. So whether he is more powerful as Anakin or Vader is debatable.
@VictorGrey: His connection to the Force wasn't as strong, which was why immediately following Mustafar he was weaker, but that by itself is not enough to suggest Anakin is superior because Vader surpassed in his original blocks. More than that, Anakin never reached his peak potential before Mustafar, and he never did after Mustafar either. Since neither variations achieved his maximum potential, potential alone can't decide which is more powerful either. Anakin had more reserves than Vader did, but Vader was more knowledgeable and controlled. Feat to feat, finding a power discrepancy is difficult. So determining who is more powerful between Anakin and Vader is more of a personal judgment than outright fact.
Anakin was more powerful than Vader, had a stronger connection to the force. But he's become weaker when he lost his hands.
Judging by feats alone, this is not so clear. Vader overcame many of his initial power obstacles set on him after Mustafar within months. He has achieved feats certainly comparable to Anakin, and Vader never even reached the height of his Post-Mustafar power until RotJ. So whether he is more powerful as Anakin or Vader is debatable.
True, but I think we can both agree we never saw him reach his full potential as Skywalker due to the Mustafar incident, regardless of his eventual power level as Vader down the line.
@VictorGrey: His connection to the Force wasn't as strong, which was why immediately following Mustafar he was weaker, but that by itself is not enough to suggest Anakin is superior because Vader surpassed in his original blocks. More than that, Anakin never reached his peak potential before Mustafar, and he never did after Mustafar either. Since neither variations achieved his maximum potential, potential alone can't decide which is more powerful either. Anakin had more reserves than Vader did, but Vader was more knowledgeable and controlled. Feat to feat, finding a power discrepancy is difficult. So determining who is more powerful between Anakin and Vader is more of a personal judgment than outright fact. But this is just my take.
He could've had the same knowledge and control, but with the same reserves. This would've made him more powerful than Vader. His combat style might also change to allow more agility and speed without the cybernetics.
@Morpheus_: Agreed; I actually addressed that in my post above yours.
That said, comparing the two:
Anakin has greater Force reserves
Anakin seems marginally faster
Vader has more versatility of powers
Vader has more control (Anakin's powers have been hindered by his lack of control before, limiting his efficiency in drawing on the Force)
Raw power is where the two are near identical, so far as I can tell. Both have destroyed buildings (though by different means; Vader by TK, Anakin by a Force Scream). Both have comparable range of power. My opinion on who is more powerful between Anakin and Vader has changed more than once, because of how close they are. In the past, I've said Anakin was more powerful, and at other times, I said Vader was. Too close to call for me.
@VictorGrey said:
He could've had the same knowledge and control
Except he didn't. So this is irrelevant.
His combat style might also change to allow more agility and speed without the cybernetics.
Anakin is marginally faster while Vader enjoys more technique. After Mustafar, he had to alter his core Djem So form into a hybrid of all forms to compensate for his cybernetics changing how his body moves. Combat skill is not interchangeable with power at any rate, and combat skill between Anakin and Vader is even more parallel than power.
I'm saying given the same amount of time Vader was given, Anakin would've gained that knowledge and control eventually, which validates my point.
He would have. If we were discussing a hypothetical scenario under which Anakin's aptitudes were fully realized, then of course he would've overshadowed Vader. He would've overshadowed Yoda and Palpatine, for that matter. But Anakin's potential coming to fruition is tangential. The point was a comparison between Anakin as he was to Vader, and in that, the distinction is at least obscure.
Unless your point from the outset was Anakin's potential not actual power, in which case I just missed your point.
As i have to under stand something, Vader should have easily forced luke to submit, everytime luke tried to do something, rather than barily holding his own to luke and then losing his hand. and in what way (i dnt want stats) was vader 80% of sidious and how was he one of the most powerful sith lords??
Read the sourcebooks. He was, and it's canon. Name me a Sith lord and I'll say whether or not Vader is more powerful (and why).
darth bane. killed his father and the jedi and sith on ruusan with a thought bomb. established the rule of 2. fricking bad-ass if you ask me
@Silver2467: Yeah, i'm referring to a scenario where Anakin's power is further developed, and that if he had the same training and knowledge, he would've overshadowed Vader. This is all a hypothetical situation, but just my way of arguing how Anakin Pre-Mustafar could've gone on to become one of the most powerful.
How strong would you say he is compared with Darth Maul in regards to the force?
Vader is very clearly more powerful than Maul.
@VictorGrey said:
Anakin was more powerful than Vader, had a stronger connection to the force. But he's become weaker when he lost his hands.
Judging by feats alone, this is not so clear. Vader overcame many of his initial power obstacles set on him after Mustafar within months. He has achieved feats certainly comparable to Anakin, and Vader never even reached the height of his Post-Mustafar power until RotJ. So whether he is more powerful as Anakin or Vader is debatable.
I agree.
So what would you say about lightsaber skills between the two?
If Vader would have not been damaged on Mustafar he would have been much stronger in the force,possibly more powerful than Sidious.As Sidious certainly held that view as he planned for Anakin to replace him or at least rule the Empire in his place.But when Vader was damaged Sidious seemed displeased with him and wanted to find another apprentice to replace Vader one being Luke.
If Vader would have not been damaged on Mustafar he would have been much stronger in the force,possibly more powerful than Sidious.As Sidious certainly held that view as he planned for Anakin to replace him or at least rule the Empire in his place.But when Vader was damaged Sidious seemed displeased with him and wanted to find another apprentice to replace Vader one being Luke.
@VictorGrey : Ah. Well, if that was your point, then I agree with you. Lucas has already established that Anakin would have superseded the Emperor in power, and we already know that Palpatine is more powerful than Vader.
@umbrafeline said:
darth bane. killed his father
So?
and the jedi and sith on ruusan with a thought bomb
Correction: The Sith killed themselves on Ruusan with the Thought Bomb. Bane was nowhere near the site of that ritual because he would have died had he been in the vicinity.
established the rule of 2.
Not related to power...
Vader and Bane are rough equals:
Bane telekinetically destroyed a temple; Vader telekinetically destroyed a cathedral
Bane leveled a campsite; Vader threw around V-Wings/Y-Wings
Bane used Absorption to absorb the energy of two grenades; Vader used Deflection to block a lightsaber blade
Bane pried a steel door off a wall; Vader tore a door off a ship
Bane telepathically influenced several miners; Vader induced fear into several Imperial personnel
Bane charred people with Lightning; Vader crushed a building-sized droid
Vader is more versatile as well and is a better duelist than Bane. There is little disparity between the two in sheer power.
@mrdecepticonleader said:
So what would you say about lightsaber skills between the two?
If Vader would have not been damaged on Mustafar he would have been much stronger in the force,possibly more powerful than Sidious.As Sidious certainly held that view as he planned for Anakin to replace him or at least rule the Empire in his place.But when Vader was damaged Sidious seemed displeased with him and wanted to find another apprentice to replace Vader one being Luke.
No idea about lightsaber skills between Anakin and Vader. Both are excellent swordsman with decidedly different styles of engagement and impressive feats.
And Anakin possessing the inherent potential to surpass Palpatine is an established fact, as described by GL:
He's not Satan, he just goes down to the corner and gets Satan's cigarettes. You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting of his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor—he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.
--Taken from Rolling Stone #975
@Morpheus_ said:
@Silver2467: We posted nigh simultaneously, so I had not seen it.
While I agree with your assessment, I might be inclined to favor Anakin in a potential fight between the two. I could be swayed, though.
No problem.
I really have no idea who would win between them anymore.
@VictorGrey : Ah. Well, if that was your point, then I agree with you. Lucas has already established that Anakin would have superseded the Emperor in power, and we already know that Palpatine is more powerful than Vader.
@umbrafeline said:
darth bane. killed his father
So?
and the jedi and sith on ruusan with a thought bomb
Correction: The Sith killed themselves on Ruusan with the Thought Bomb. Bane was nowhere near the site of that ritual because he would have died had he been in the vicinity.
established the rule of 2.
Not related to power...
Vader and Bane are rough equals:
Bane telekinetically destroyed a temple; Vader telekinetically destroyed a cathedral
Bane leveled a campsite; Vader threw around V-Wings/Y-Wings
Bane used Absorption to absorb the energy of two grenades; Vader used Deflection to block a lightsaber blade
Bane pried a steel door off a wall; Vader tore a door off a ship
Bane telepathically influenced several miners; Vader induced fear into several Imperial personnel
Bane charred people with Lightning; Vader crushed a building-sized droid
Vader is more versatile as well and is a better duelist than Bane. There is little disparity between the two in sheer power.
@mrdecepticonleader said:
So what would you say about lightsaber skills between the two?
If Vader would have not been damaged on Mustafar he would have been much stronger in the force,possibly more powerful than Sidious.As Sidious certainly held that view as he planned for Anakin to replace him or at least rule the Empire in his place.But when Vader was damaged Sidious seemed displeased with him and wanted to find another apprentice to replace Vader one being Luke.
No idea about lightsaber skills between Anakin and Vader. Both are excellent swordsman with decidedly different styles of engagement and impressive feats.
And Anakin possessing the inherent potential to surpass Palpatine is an established fact, as described by GL:
He's not Satan, he just goes down to the corner and gets Satan's cigarettes. You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting of his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor—he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.
--Taken from Rolling Stone #975
@Morpheus_ said:
@Silver2467: We posted nigh simultaneously, so I had not seen it.
While I agree with your assessment, I might be inclined to favor Anakin in a potential fight between the two. I could be swayed, though.
No problem.
I really have no idea who would win between them anymore.
@Morpheus_ said:
Krayt > Bane
Just so Silver can get an aneurism.
...Go away.
I agree that Vaders loyalty to the Emperor seems questionable at best.I mean Ive always thought Vader was aware that Palpatine was unsatisfied with him and sought to replace him.
@mrdecepticonleader: It seems to be less a consequent of Vader's loyalty than his status as a Sith Lord. The Banite Sith were constantly aspiring to supplant their masters. That was the underlying precept of that entire Order. Vader, as the apprentice, was still compelled by that tradition and by the prospect of his own self-aggrandizement by killing the Emperor.
@mrdecepticonleader: It seems to be less a consequent of Vader's loyalty than his status as a Sith Lord. The Banite Sith were constantly aspiring to supplant their masters. That was the underlying precept of that entire Order. Vader, as the apprentice, was still compelled by that tradition and by the prospect of his own self-aggrandizement by killing the Emperor.
@Morpheus_: Agreed; I actually addressed that in my post above yours.
That said, comparing the two:
Anakin has greater Force reserves
Anakin seems marginally faster
Vader has more versatility of powers
Vader has more control (Anakin's powers have been hindered by his lack of control before, limiting his efficiency in drawing on the Force)
Raw power is where the two are near identical, so far as I can tell. Both have destroyed buildings (though by different means; Vader by TK, Anakin by a Force Scream). Both have comparable range of power. My opinion on who is more powerful between Anakin and Vader has changed more than once, because of how close they are. In the past, I've said Anakin was more powerful, and at other times, I said Vader was. Too close to call for me.
@VictorGrey said:
He could've had the same knowledge and control
Except he didn't. So this is irrelevant.
His combat style might also change to allow more agility and speed without the cybernetics.
Anakin is marginally faster while Vader enjoys more technique. After Mustafar, he had to alter his core Djem So form into a hybrid of all forms to compensate for his cybernetics changing how his body moves. Combat skill is not interchangeable with power at any rate, and combat skill between Anakin and Vader is even more parallel than power.
Vader has more technique, yes, he did make his Djem So a hybrid combination of the other forms. But Anakin isn't faster. Vader has impaled Roan Lands so quickly that Ferus Olin couldn't even react; his best friend was staabed before he even noticed what was going on, and it took him several seconds to realize what was going on. And Vader did this casually, without using his rage or anything.
As i have to under stand something, Vader should have easily forced luke to submit, everytime luke tried to do something, rather than barily holding his own to luke and then losing his hand. and in what way (i dnt want stats) was vader 80% of sidious and how was he one of the most powerful sith lords??
Read the sourcebooks. He was, and it's canon. Name me a Sith lord and I'll say whether or not Vader is more powerful (and why).
darth bane. killed his father and the jedi and sith on ruusan with a thought bomb. established the rule of 2. fricking bad-ass if you ask me
Which means what? He established the Rule of Two, that's not combat power. Also, he couldn't even work out that there should have been two Dark Lords, he thought there should be one, until Revan's holocron told him.
Killing his father means nothing. Anybody can do that.
He never initiated the Thought Bomb, that was Skere Kaan and the Brotherhood. Bane simply manipulated them, and watched from a safe distance. Not only that, but it's a ritual, Bane can't initiate it in a fight.
Bane couldn't even detect the Synox in his system, and he got most of his philosophies and knowledge of Galactic History/rituals etc. from Darth Revan's holocron.
Vader doesn't need Orbalisk Armor to be almost invincible, all he needs is his rage.
I hate him. He is severely overrated and he has done nothing for people to suggest he is the most powerful Force-User ever. NJO Luke would mop up and absolutely trash Marek. Or his clone.
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