I know I’m a bit late to the conversation party, but I’ve GOT to say my peace on what took place in this book, one that I never planned on investing in but was curious none the less.

I’ll admit I gave in and bought Catwoman #1 (online) cause I heard there was a bit of cheesecake, nothing wrong with a little of that right? I’m sure many of you know by now what took place in this issue. Yeah, the cheesecake did become a bit much at times but I’ll be able to get over that much faster than what took place in the last 5 pages, especially when I think about how this makes Batman look.

I’ll begin with this quote from Power Girl #17 (by Judd Winick ironically)

“There was and maybe is no one who was more dedicated to “ridding the world of evil”. It was beyond passion. It was beyond vocation. Every molecule of his body seemed to point in one direction. Putting the bad guys down.”

I’d be pretty surprised to find someone here who doesn’t agree with this statement. This is Batman at his core, what he is and hopefully will always be. His passion and dedication to his war on crime is almost superhuman………almost.

Batman’s strong focus and will usually means putting his needs and desires in check which he seems to do pretty easily most of the time. Does that mean he can’t have romance in his life? HELL NO. Some sex? Why not? I didn’t mind it all that much, at least from what I’ve seen overall in various Bat-media………..

a) the timing was right

b) there was love involved….on some level

c) it was usually tastefully depicted and

d) it was consensual.....

Sure there are exceptions to this…as the story dictated at times (like with Orion’s wife as I recall, I’m sure there were others) but in most cases it seemed like Batman knew when and when not to. He never seemed to let it get out of hand, to make him loose focus. He’s a busy man after all and Gotham will always be his first love.

I don’t know about you but…..imo…..that lust filled horn-dog, lying on the floor, looking like a dog in heat (kinda) on the last page of this issue is not the Batman I just described, the one that DC claims to have taken a hands off approach to.

I don’t care what kind of “modern” take this is supposed to be, Batman being forced into sex and giving into it so easily combined with this over-the-top, and tasteless cliffhanger page makes him look pathetic. But what makes it worse is, like Selina said “This isn’t the first time”?

SAY WHAT?

I know it’s only been one issue but is this seriously going to be the new foundation of their relationship? Mindless orgies?

I know in a way, Selina always seemed to have him wrapped around her finger but never completely. Now that I think about it neither of them have been able to completely “tame” the other have they? If so that’s the beauty of their relationship isn’t it?

But if this encounter is what usually happens, if this is how their relationship truly starts, where “Every time he protests”, “then gives in” (sounds creepy), Winick has just turned Batman into (pardon my French) Catwoman’s B*#CH.

A mentally weak and “whipped” Batman? DISGUSTING!!!

And for the sake of contrast here's a recent book I didn't mind. X-Force Sex and Violence. At least this book had a proper rating and the sex depicted in the artwork imo made it seem consensual.

It was in character and neither was portrayed as the victim, compared to the art and dialogue in the final scene of Catwoman #1.

And weather male or female being the victim is not cool, it's just plain creepy and makes it feel more like rape then consensual sex....imo.

Batman has needs too...
 
I dunno, personally I really liked it, but I've never read a Catwoman book before. Felt like everything was explained really well, she likes danger, steals stuff which gets her into trouble, you get introduced to Lola, had some action, some spy/disguise stuff, and then there's the ending, which didn't bother with it being the first issue and all, stance may change if every issue becomes a dryhumpfest and I can see why it would irk people. I guess some people didn't like her not knowing who Bats is? At least they made it clear and didn't leave it for us to try and figure out what is and isn't canon. End was fine, start was meh and I guess a bit too much.

@HotSauceCommittee: I know Batman has needs, did you not read my blog?

I really didn't see it as looking bad on Batman's part....sometimes it's not about what's shown on the page but more about what we know about the characters and how they would react....maybe it was a slow night in Gotham....Batman isn't the only crimefighter in Gotham...he's got Nightwing, Robin, Spoiler, Batgirl, and the Birds of Prey all out there to...I'm sure he didn't intend to go into that penthouse and have sex with Selina because we do see that he tried to fight it...it just shows that with Selina he's fighting his very nature....he knows that he shouldn't be involved with a known criminal but at the same time he does have strong feelings for her that he just can't fight....we know from history that Bruce and Selina truly do love each other but because of their chosen professions they can never truly be together

Batman forced? No, he wasn't forced.

Was she aggressive? Absolutely. Could she have FORCED Batman to have sex with her? Not only no, but hell no... She was aggressive, and he responded...

@danhimself said:

I really didn't see it as looking bad on Batman's part....sometimes it's not about what's shown on the page but more about what we know about the characters and how they would react....maybe it was a slow night in Gotham....Batman isn't the only crimefighter in Gotham...he's got Nightwing, Robin, Spoiler, Batgirl, and the Birds of Prey all out there to...I'm sure he didn't intend to go into that penthouse and have sex with Selina because we do see that he tried to fight it...it just shows that with Selina he's fighting his very nature....he knows that he shouldn't be involved with a known criminal but at the same time he does have strong feelings for her that he just can't fight....we know from history that Bruce and Selina truly do love each other but because of their chosen professions they can never truly be together

Remember, the Bat Family isn't as big as it once was thanks to the relaunch. But that's minor.

Sure they have a history of love but it's pretty one sided (to say the least) here now isn't it? There's Batman who seems to care about her/attracted to her and Catwoman who just want's to get off. So this situation, that's happened more than once doesn't exactly make things easier for him to sort out how he feels now does it? And you mean to tell me a smart man like him can't get a clue after the second or third time? So he just keeps going back, resisting and giving in, over and over again? I know it's only one issue but so far it feels like an abusive relationship, Selina's just using him, which is in her character I guess, but Batman being played like this? Really?

And don't get it twisted, they're not "making love" either. That statements relation to sex, heck the statement in general is so hollow and meaningless.

As Tina Turner asked "What's love got to do with it?" to which Starfire answered......nothing. Nothing but pure lust.

I don't see how Batman was "forced" into it. Bruce has needs and maybe they involve keeping the costume on he is insane. This didn't look poorly on Batman it didn't look poorly on anyone it made sense for everyone involved.

@DMC: Hmm... So just because Batman is the quintessential stoic, he's not allowed be a little kinky? Now this issue was nothing spectacular but something about the way you're going about this whole sex issue leaves a sour taste in my mouth. How are you so sure that their little rendezvous wasn't on dear old Bats' terms? Since Selina stated that this wasn't their first time, maybe he came to her fully aware of what would likely happen. I reckon Bats was fully prepped for their encounter and wasn't forced at all. I can't speak for you, but I don't think very many straight males would be able to resist a woman like Selina if she were to try and force herself on them, so can you really blame Bats? I have to disagree with you when you say that Batman 'giving in' to Selina's temptations makes him 'mentally weak' or 'whipped'.

Batman getting sum, what is wrong with that?! LOL

@DMC: @MrMazz: @Timandm:

I don't think 'Batman was forced into sex', he seemed quite aggressive, though I do feel the scene itself was 'forced'. By that I mean, it was just plopped into the chapter for shock factor. And by that I mean...well, take that scene out and the general feel of the chapter wouldn't have been all that different - heck, the title was even "and they leave the costumes on" or something like that, that alongside the various T&A shots we got...only an idiot wouldn't get what the title referred to.

If the chapter had/set-up a decent enough story, then perhaps I wouldn't be annoyed. The fact that instead of those last few pages on story development, and on a cheap porn scene instead is what annoys me...fair enough if you like the character, but would you really spend a couple bucks for this, over so many over titles at that too?

@ragdollpurps said:

@DMC: Hmm... So just because Batman is the quintessential stoic, he's not allowed be a little kinky? Now this issue was nothing spectacular but something about the way you're going about this whole sex issue leaves a sour taste in my mouth. How are you so sure that their little rendezvous wasn't on dear old Bats' terms? Since Selina stated that this wasn't their first time, maybe he came to her fully aware of what would likely happen. I reckon Bats was fully prepped for their encounter and wasn't forced at all. I can't speak for you, but I don't think very many straight males would be able to resist a woman like Selina if she were to try and force herself on them, so can you really blame Bats? I have to disagree with you when you say that Batman 'giving in' to Selina's temptations makes him 'mentally weak' or 'whipped'.

When Selina says "everytime he resists" "then gives in", sounds like her terms to me.

You say Batman wasn't forced, but if she wasn't so aggressive: putting him on the ground, taking off his belt etc, would he have given in? Maybe if he went back in for a kiss, but that's not what happened.

An yeah you're right, many straight men wouldn't resist a woman (a complete stranger) l who threw herself on them. If they did they would seem odd wouldn't they? Cause in these "modern times" people see no problem with men just acting on impulse, thinking with their wang and not their head. But what's the difference really, their head is full of porn anyway.

@DMC: So Bats proceeding to unzip her suit and kiss her neck makes it all on Selina's terms? And no, he may not have gone in for a kiss but he sure as hell went in for something more! You need to remember that Batman is just a man, and he has urges just like any other human does. Doesn't necessarily mean they should be depicted in the comic buuut it's Winick... don't need to explain much further.

Oh and of course. Just as women can't be in a dominant role when it comes to any sexual encounter and males are not allowed to show any emotion, vulnerabilities or even enjoy their own sexuality. Doing so would make them weak minded, and god forbid they give up control in the bedroom lest they become someone's 'btch'. Oh these modern times!

I thought Catwoman was always the one to get Batman truly riled up.

I think it's fine, dude has a weakness with catwoman.

@ragdollpurps said:

@DMC: So Bats proceeding to unzip her suit and kiss her neck makes it all on Selina's terms? And no, he may not have gone in for a kiss but he sure as hell went in for something more! You need to remember that Batman is just a man, and he has urges just like any other human does. Doesn't necessarily mean they should be depicted in the comic buuut it's Winick... don't need to explain much further.

Oh and of course. Just as women can't be in a dominant role when it comes to any sexual encounter and males are not allowed to show any emotion, vulnerabilities or even enjoy their own sexuality. Doing so would make them weak minded, and god forbid they give up control in the bedroom lest they become someone's 'btch'. Oh these modern times!

Yeah Batman procedes to do all that, after she "insists", hence her aggressiveness leads him to acting out.

And you're missing the point of my last comment, I'm not talking about woman being dominant and I'm not talking about males not being able to show emotion, or enjoying sex. I'm simply talking about self control. Are you saying its okay for males to constantly give in every time a woman throws herself at him?

@Adnan said:

@DMC: @MrMazz: @Timandm:

I don't think 'Batman was forced into sex', he seemed quite aggressive, though I do feel the scene itself was 'forced'. By that I mean, it was just plopped into the chapter for shock factor. And by that I mean...well, take that scene out and the general feel of the chapter wouldn't have been all that different - heck, the title was even "and they leave the costumes on" or something like that, that alongside the various T&A shots we got...only an idiot wouldn't get what the title referred to.

If the chapter had/set-up a decent enough story, then perhaps I wouldn't be annoyed. The fact that instead of those last few pages on story development, and on a cheap porn scene instead is what annoys me...fair enough if you like the character, but would you really spend a couple bucks for this, over so many over titles at that too?

Wait. WAIT!!!! We're supposed to PAY for those comic books!??!?! Huh... Well that explains the looks, the yells, and that guy with the hand cuffs...

@DMC: Dude... Batman wasn't forced... he wasn't raped... He chose his own actions... And I'd bet hard cash he had no regrets... There's no way Selina could physically force him... That was simply rough seduction and some men.. MANY men.. In fact, MOST men probably like that kind of thing...

and regarding this comment, " And you're missing the point of my last comment, I'm not talking about woman being dominant and I'm not talking about males not being able to show emotion, or enjoying sex. I'm simply talking about self control. Are you saying its okay for males to constantly give in every time a woman throws herself at him?"

You specifically used the words, "Give in." When someone 'gives in' to sexual advances they are NOT being forced. They're being seduced.... And DMC did not say it was okay for a guy to give in EVERY time a woman throws herself at him... She's simply saying it's okay for him to choose to give in when it's appropriate to do so... There's nothing wrong with a guy 'giving in' Nothing at all... "Giving in" to a woman who when your wife or girlfriend doesn't approve is a different story entirely. Selina was agressive, and Bats gave in. No one was FORCED...

@ragdollpurps: I don't think my wife ever went to that modern school of sexuality... Thank God... LOL!!!

@DMC said:

Yeah Batman procedes to do all that, after she "insists", hence her aggressiveness leads him to acting out.

And you're missing the point of my last comment, I'm not talking about woman being dominant and I'm not talking about males not being able to show emotion, or enjoying sex. I'm simply talking about self control. Are you saying its okay for males to constantly give in every time a woman throws herself at him?

Sure, her aggressiveness elicits his actions but it was stated that he always shows up and that it certainly wasn't the first time the two tangoed implying that Bats must have had at least an idea of what might happen in their encounter. This is why I do not see him 'giving in' as him literally giving in because Selina overpowered him. I see it more as him just no longer denying that he wants her as well, and therefore lets it happen. Also, his self control is far beyond that of an average human, so WIS/PIS/whatever aside, if he truly did not want to be with Selina it wouldn't have happened. So taken within the context of the story, the fact that it did happen further leads me to believe that he wanted it.

Are you saying its okay for males to constantly give in every time a woman throws herself at him?

No, that is not what I am saying. The point I am trying to make is that anyone, regardless of whether they're fictional and at the mercy of the writer (*shaking my fist at Winick*), has the right to sleep with whomever they choose, however they choose. If a guy wants to 'give in' to every person that throws themselves at him, that's his choice. It doesn't make him weak, it doesn't make him a 'btch' it doesn't make him 'whipped'. (Same goes for women as well.) Most of all, someone's sexuality shouldn't be factor in whether that person looks bad or not. That is where I definitely disagree with you when you say that this encounter makes Batman look 'mentally weak and whipped' and therefore, 'disgusting'. Timandm does a good job of explaining in fewer words what I'm trying to say in his above post.

So.. wait. Let's say a woman that you've known for quite a while and that you deeply care for in a romantic way, love even, comes up to you and start flirting with you intensly. And you weren't in any kind of relationship or involvement.. you say you wouldn't give in to that?

And this somehow makes Batman 'whipped' or even 'raped'?

Hm..

@ragdollpurps:

Sure, her aggressiveness elicits his actions but it was stated that he always shows up and that it certainly wasn't the first time the two tangoed implying that Bats must have had at least an idea of what might happen in their encounter. This is why I do not see him 'giving in' as him literally giving in because Selina overpowered him. I see it more as him just no longer denying that he wants her as well, and therefore lets it happen. Also, his self control is far beyond that of an average human, so WIS/PIS/whatever aside, if he truly did not want to be with Selina it wouldn't have happened. So taken within the context of the story, the fact that it did happen further leads me to believe that he wanted it.

I wouldn't mind as much if was clear that he wanted it too, which would make it feel consensual. But why is it that every time he comes back he resists? At least from this scene it shows that his intentions going in aren't for sex.

If a guy wants to 'give in' to every person that throws themselves at him, that's his choice. It doesn't make him weak, it doesn't make him a 'btch' it doesn't make him 'whipped'. (Same goes for women as well.)

Well at least agree that there's a choice, though it seems more often than not, in real life, that when a guy chooses not too. The reaction isn't necessarily "good for u" but more "why not"?

Oh and I added a little more on my post, for contrast ^_^

Holy crud, I just noticed something. Catwoman's zipper ends somewhat above her crotch...how did that last page work then? Batman is one hardy dude to be able to shove his bat-penis through dozens of small metal teeth/hook things...

...eh, for the sake of my own state of mind, I'm just going to stop thinking about this matter now.

@DMC: I think someone needs to rethink their definition of "consensual". Just 'cause one person is in a dominant position, doesn't make it rape. And seeing as how Selina and Bruce are donned head to toe in black leather and rubber, a little S&M seems pretty legit.

@gangly said:

@DMC: I think someone needs to rethink their definition of "consensual". Just 'cause one person is in a dominant position, doesn't make it rape. And seeing as how Selina and Bruce are donned head to toe in black leather and rubber, a little S&M seems pretty legit.

@gangly: So are you saying there's no such thing as "no means no"?

@DMC said:

@gangly: So are you saying there's no such thing as "no means no"?

Absolutely not! But that has NOTHING to do with this situation. On the 3rd to last page, there are 2 distinct panels. One is of Bruce tightly gripping Selina's arm, the next is of him letting go. He resists initially for reasons far removed from "I don't want to have sex with you", and he gives in because... he does!

Also, it might not hurt to mention that 2 panels later he's unzipping her costume and then sucking on her neck. That really doesn't seem like "no" to me.

And frankly, the fact that you still insist he's being forced is just CRAZY. Catwoman is strong and an excellent fighter and acrobat. But Batman, especially if Selina is "distracted" could easily throw her off and just swing out the window.

YOU NEED TO LET THIS GO!

Being new to comics this was my favorite of the New 52 I've read.

@gangly: hey you're the one that posted. Can I not reply on my own blogpost? I'm I not allowed to defend my point of view?

Yeah and reason Bats keeps going is because she puts him on the ground, unbuckles his belt and continues to smother him. Looks like she's not taking no for an answer.

@fodigg said:

@gangly said:

@DMC: I think someone needs to rethink their definition of "consensual". Just 'cause one person is in a dominant position, doesn't make it rape. And seeing as how Selina and Bruce are donned head to toe in black leather and rubber, a little S&M seems pretty legit.

@DMC said:

Looks like she's not taking no for an answer.

*sigh. Look Cap, if you're not willing to actually engage in a conversation that's too bad. I gave you the facts and evidence from the comic itself, but if you really want Bruce to be getting raped, you're more than welcome to interpret it that way.

"SIGH"

@DMC said:

@gangly: hey you're the one that posted. Can I not reply on my own blogpost? I'm I not allowed to defend my point of view?

Yeah and reason Bats keeps going is because she puts him on the ground, unbuckles his belt and continues to smother him. Looks like she's not taking no for an answer.

He surpasses her in every physical stat that there is. If he felt that he was being pushed into something that he didn't want, or hell, even straight up raped, then he could have shoved her off or done something else about it. He was not under the influence of anything other than his own hormones. There's no logical explanation as to why he wouldn't have been able to do so.

The panel you're talking of when she puts him on the ground (which, let's face it, if he really didn't want to be there, he wouldn't be, he's taken on far more physically menacing opponents than Catwoman), he grips her arm as if he's about to do something about it. And then he lets it go. This to me, displays him giving into the passion and lust of the moment.

And in the next page you have him aggressively going at her neck. This is not the action of somebody who doesn't want what's happening to them. An example of pages that ARE like that, would be Tarantule's rape of Dick Grayson.

Gallery

@The Dark Huntress:

Did say it feels more like rape not equal to it. But I guess rape is too strong of a word.

My problem with this scene isn't just the art or this one encounter but how the monologue describes their relationship, that this pattern of resistance (by batman), to aggressive coercion (by Selina) is how it always starts.

I have a feeling DC knew one person was going to complain about this.

To counter your argument and in reference to what you wrote up there ^^ why does the sex have to be on his terms? I don't understand that point.

And I think if he didn't "want it" he wouldn't have shown up to her penthouse in the first place. She seduced him. She's a sexy woman and she seduced him because he is sexually attracted to her.

That's my opinion.

@Babs said:

To counter your argument and in reference to what you wrote up there ^^ why does the sex have to be on his terms? I don't understand that point.

And I think if he didn't "want it" he wouldn't have shown up to her penthouse in the first place. She seduced him. She's a sexy woman and she seduced him because he is sexually attracted to her.

That's my opinion.

Well good thing some supervillian did'nt follow him or he'd be easy pickings.@The Dark Huntress said:

@DMC said:

@gangly: hey you're the one that posted. Can I not reply on my own blogpost? I'm I not allowed to defend my point of view?

Yeah and reason Bats keeps going is because she puts him on the ground, unbuckles his belt and continues to smother him. Looks like she's not taking no for an answer.

He surpasses her in every physical stat that there is. If he felt that he was being pushed into something that he didn't want, or hell, even straight up raped, then he could have shoved her off or done something else about it. He was not under the influence of anything other than his own hormones. There's no logical explanation as to why he wouldn't have been able to do so.

The panel you're talking of when she puts him on the ground (which, let's face it, if he really didn't want to be there, he wouldn't be, he's taken on far more physically menacing opponents than Catwoman), he grips her arm as if he's about to do something about it. And then he lets it go. This to me, displays him giving into the passion and lust of the moment.

And in the next page you have him aggressively going at her neck. This is not the action of somebody who doesn't want what's happening to them. An example of pages that ARE like that, would be Tarantule's rape of Dick Grayson.

Gallery

OH NOES,Tarantula thank God she's dead.

@entropy_aegis: I wouldn't speak too soon on that

i didnt like it either. not because it didnt look consensual or whatever. not because batman gave in, he works hard and ocassionally he cant refuse some. part with this isnt the first time, made me think, bats is a PIMP: overlook what she does to get some, BEAT IT PLAYER!! SWINGING PAST YOUR KNEE!! but thats no surprise cuz its selena. THE PART THAT PISSED ME OFF: she says it doesnt take long ?? then next page looks like its over. he couldnt handle her another page? i think bats might be impotent.

oh and the issue was so slutty. all the bras and stuff. dc is really going for sex with the new 52. check out red hood. they're passing starfire around like a joint.

......i just don't get this rant about what Winnick did......

it was NOT rape.....

it was completely hot, lustful, kinky and you could tell they need each other.....

its not like batman to just give in like that...and not for the first time either.........there is an attraction...a need..... a want.....and possible growing love between them......

i will keep buying his issues....

@entropy_aegis: Even if a villain did follow him, he/she would have to be a real douche bag to interrupt while he's getting laid. LOL

@jrock85 said:

@entropy_aegis: Even if a villain did follow him, he/she would have to be a real douche bag to interrupt while he's getting laid. LOL

LOL

@DMC said:

d) it was consensual.....

I don’t care what kind of “modern” take this is supposed to be, Batman being forced into sex and giving into it so easily combined with this over-the-top, and tasteless cliffhanger page makes him look pathetic. But what makes it worse is, like Selina said “This isn’t the first time”?

SAY WHAT?

I know it’s only been one issue but is this seriously going to be the new foundation of their relationship? Mindless orgies?

But if this encounter is what usually happens, if this is how their relationship truly starts, where “Every time he protests”, “then gives in” (sounds creepy), Winick has just turned Batman into (pardon my French) Catwoman’s B*#CH.

A mentally weak and “whipped” Batman? DISGUSTING!!!

And weather male or female being the victim is not cool, it's just plain creepy and makes it feel more like rape then consensual sex....imo.We know for a fact that:

Based on this comic, we know for a fact that:

a) He sought her out in this instance.

b) This wasn't their first encounter (and based on Catwoman's monologue, we can assume that their previous encounters were conducted in a similar manner)

c) He was sucking on her neck voluntarily (i.e. I didn't see anyone holding a gun to his head while he was doing that)

So, if it was indeed rape and, not consensual, why would he come back for more? Surely, if the previous times always end up like this, he, being a man of superior intelligence, would know what to expect and just stay away. Right? Yet, according to Catwoman, he's the guy that "always just shows up". I don't know, but that sounds like a date to me.

Methinks he's a gentleman that doth protest too much, no?

It's NOT rape,but it still fell flat.

@entropy_aegis said:

It's NOT rape,but it still fell flat.

Can't argue with that.

KINKY MISTRESS PLAY DOES NOT = BAT RAPE!!!!!!!!!!
 
I never would've even LOOKED at the comic if it hadnt've been for people talking about certain parts of it.  For heaven's sake, it's not always fun to be the "dominant" one in your relationship.  If she chose to take more sexually aggressive steps to "ridin the horsey", and he didn't struggle or say "RAPE!", then it's not "FORCED" anything.  
 
I say "Put that whip to good use".  Hell, good for Selina.  Gettin some like that.  I mean seriously, as many Batman threads as I've watched/suffered through in terms of his brilliance and fighting techniques, I'm not going to sit here and agree with anyone who says that he was raped by Catwoman.  Ain't like she drugged him.

So because they actually depicted, instead of implying, that Catwoman and Batman canoodle we now have problems with the comic book industry. 0/10

iimo i liked it too cfant wait for the second to come out

i think on some level wether he loves Selina or is very atracted to her he is not gonna pass up a chance to have great sex with a gorgeous babe like Selina Kyle.