Captain America
Character » Captain America appears in 11750 issues.
During World War II, Steve Rogers volunteered to receive the experimental Super-Soldier Serum. Enhanced to the pinnacle of human physical potential and armed with an unbreakable shield, he became Captain America. After a failed mission left him encased in ice for decades, he was found and revived by the Avengers, later joining their ranks and eventually becoming the team's leader.
Off My Mind: Captain America in the Vietnam War
With the U.S. Government (and other individuals) trying to recapture the spirit of Cap over the years, it would be surprising not to have seen a Captain America active during the 60s. If a Captain America was created during this time, what would he have been like?
== TEASER ==
America was a different place in the 60s so the possibilities of what Captain America would've been like are interesting. I've seen people say that Frank Castle, the Punisher, was basically the Captain America of the Vietnam War. In Ultimate Comics Captain America #1, we'll get a look at one possible version of the Captain America of the Vietnam War.
From the solicit information, this Captain America will be the regular Cap's ultimate nemesis. Why does this Captain America have to be his nemesis? If he was chosen to be Captain America by the U.S. Government, we could assume he was a decent guy in order to get the privilege. Of course that doesn't have to be the case. There's also the possibility that some experience caused this Cap to go wonky and turn against his country. Seeing the original could bring about feelings of resentment.
While I am looking forward to this Ultimate Captain America comic, stepping away from it, I think the idea of a Captain America during the Vietnam War has potential. The notion that this Cap would then turn crazy or evil feels a little cliché though. I like the idea that there could have been another Cap shortly before the current one was unfrozen. If a Cap during the Vietnam War time managed to keep his sanity, would he still be operating as a hero or soldier today? What would happen when this Cap and the original came face-to-face? Would the Vietnam Cap step aside and allow the original to resume the role or would they both agree to fight evil together? More importantly, I just want to see a Captain America fighting in the jungles of Vietnam and if his presence would have had an affect. We'll have to check out this Captain America miniseries to see if that happens.
Nazis were evil, that's why Cap was so good as a heroe there....
The Vietnamese were fighting for the right to be their own country, they weren't really your average comic book world domination master race creating villain....
IMO it would've made Cap a darker character with complex issues about his opinion of his own government and country... so maybe a good read!
The idea of Cap in Vietnam has incredible potential, first it will explore the always important gap between Steve Rogers' own morality and the behaviour of the goverment of the nation he represents.
But I'm more interested with the consequences, how would Cap deal with the whole problem of Vietnam Era Veterans, Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, prejudice from thee medias etc.? In essence, how would Cap deal with the Rambos of the MU (which include Frank Castle)?
do not question Captain America!
Nope.
Leave him out of it (no ret-cons, please). Inserting the Captain America character into that quagmire won't do any good or accomplish anything. It won't change the b.s./propaganda the U.S. Government fed everyone and it won't change the outcome of the war. But it might diminish Cap's legend if the creative team or editorial staff have an anti-American axe to grind.
If someone in comics wants to make a political statement about Viet Nam I say do it without using Cap as a vessel or tool to do it. He was created in the WW II era as an American symbol and he was revived just before the U. S. stepped up it's involvement in Viet Nam. The creative and editorial staff at Marvel could've used him to make political statements back then, when the Viet Nam War was actually happening, but they (wisely) did not. Why do it now?
Don't, there's no reason.
I took it to mean a completely new Ultimate Captain America. Ultimate Cap was still frozen in the ice on their Earth during this time period.
Edit:
From the solicit information, this Captain America will be the regular Cap's ultimate nemesis.
Nevermind, now I am confused. Unless the Vietnam Cap is somehow in the present day time period. Oh well.
" Nazis were evil, that's why Cap was so good as a heroe there.... The Vietnamese were fighting for the right to be their own country, they weren't really your average comic book world domination master race creating villain.... IMO it would've made Cap a darker character with complex issues about his opinion of his own government and country... so maybe a good read! "
"come to think of it Punisher leads the Avengers in Ultimate Universe. Never realised how similar they are to each other. Only one questions the gov't and corruption and takes law into his own hands , and one guy holds onto the ideals of WW2.
"
Punisher was in the war. I also recall Logan was there. He blew the place up, if anyone recalls Wolverine Origins. But overall yes, Captain America could have been in the war, if he wasn't taking much needed rest
I think the idea of Cap fighting another Cap makes sense that it would be his nemesis, because its someone with the same training and abilities, like Wolverine and Sabertooth, or Dick Grayson and Jason Todd, the danger is that he knows everything about you and how you operate.
As to WHY 60s Cap would be a bad guy, you have to remember that in Vietnam, unlike WW2, there was little popular support back on the home front. People often spat on and yelled at returning vets. PLUS with WW2 the military was sending people over in units, there was a sense of camaraderie with the guys in your unit, whereas in Vietnam the draft, public opinion, and low morale soldiers often felt like they were over there alone, which demoralized them.
I think this story would make perfect sense with the following ideas. Nam-Cap was created towards the end of the war as a way to try and drum up popular opinion and boost the morale of the soldiers. Unfortunately for Nam-Cap it didn't work, maybe it undercut the war effort because people assumed the real Cap wouldn't fight for what some considered an unjust war, maybe its because he gets thrown in after is already a quagmire. Anyway Nam-Cap comes home and instead of being hailed as a hero, he's called a baby killer and spat on. Maybe he has PTSD, maybe he becomes a drug addict like so many vets (or self medicates the PTSD with drugs). And from there I'd just assume he pulls a Jason Todd (I was never good enough, so I'm gonna kill everyone to make you love me).
How can a character named after a country not come into "
current conflicts" or even politics? Having someone like Steve (regular universe) involved in the Vietnam War would be intertesting in terms of the psychological aspect but I dont think he would go mind blowingly crazy. He's not like a Frank Castle but perhaps it would take him that edge, that would give him more insight of how a person like Castle would go onto becoming a Punisher.
Like the Civil War that happened awhile it would break Captain's beliefs in America but probably ten folds more. I would def be interested.
Cap in Vietnam? When Captain Rambo throws his mighty knife, you better get the hell out of the way!!!!
I think its interesting, I like how they aren't throwing the WW2 Ultimate Cap into Viet Nam and are pretty much introducing another Captain America to the Ultimate Universe, maybe this guy is the Ultimate version of John Walker US Agent? It would make sense granted the 616 version wasn't around during Viet Nam but a little bit of Ultimate retcon magic its possible.
I hadn't heard of this story arc until now, I'm intrigued... but I hope they don't turn the two wars into caricatures.
"@InnerVenom123:
do not question Captain America!
"
Do not post out of context scans involving superhuman children :p
"@PowerHerc:
I took it to mean a completely new Ultimate Captain America. Ultimate Cap was still frozen in the ice on their Earth during this time period.
Edit:
From the solicit information, this Captain America will be the regular Cap's ultimate nemesis. Nevermind, now I am confused. Unless the Vietnam Cap is somehow in the present day time period. Oh well. "
Hey, bro, now I'm confused too! lol :D
it would def make him much darker, like chaos burn said, in nam, we were technically the bad guys..not to mention how would caps moral compass deal with all the craziness that went on (killing kids and women,scorched earth etc...) or would the comics pretty it up? cuz if it doesn't then yea her would pretty much be the punisher with a shield
Two things sprang to mind...
1. Is this how they're going to bring in John Walker, aka: The US Agent, into the Ultimate Universe? And if so, then yeah... it's a good bet he's gonna be crazy or evil, because that was his ENTIRE character arc when he was first created. Poor guy can't get a break.
2. There WAS a Cap during Vietnam in the main Marvel Universe, we just don't know WHO he was, OR if he did ANY fighting. Because all we have to go by is one of the Punisher's flashbacks to boot camp as seen during Civil War. And that could've just been some guy in a suit used for propaganda/training purposes. *shrugs* So who knows. There have been quite a few Caps in the 616 universe.
there are only 3 reasons that vietnam is considered worse than WW2
1.We it was a war we didn't need to fight
2. We lost
3. It was the first war that civilians actually got to see the horrors of war due to the amount of coverage it got from the media
in truth far more people died in WW2, just as many americans came home with post traumatic stress( they called it shell shock back then) and it was in every way just as brutal, in some cases more so. The primary difference is purely public perception. People seem to forget that plenty of women and children died during world war 2 many lives were destroyed and terrible things were done by all sides, it's just that we as civilians saw a great deal more of it in vietnam.
The truth is that all wars are terrible and there's no reason logically to believe that any one war would affect anyone more profoundly than another
In a superhero documentary "Comic Book Superheroes Unmasked" they mention how WWII was featured in lots of comics, but how Vietnam wasn't at all. Stan Lee said that they felt, during Vietnam, that it wasn't as clear cut as WWII and that it wasn't in good taste or something like that.
" there are only 3 reasons that vietnam is considered worse than WW2 1.We it was a war we didn't need to fight 2. We lost 3. It was the first war that civilians actually got to see the horrors of war due to the amount of coverage it got from the media in truth far more people died in WW2, just as many americans came home with post traumatic stress( they called it shell shock back then) and it was in every way just as brutal, in some cases more so. The primary difference is purely public perception. People seem to forget that plenty of women and children died during world war 2 many lives were destroyed and terrible things were done by all sides, it's just that we as civilians saw a great deal more of it in vietnam. The truth is that all wars are terrible and there's no reason logically to believe that any one war would affect anyone more profoundly than another "That first reason is a little more than "perception." In WWII, there was a cast of villains and people were fighting and dying for a cause and a reason (stop the Axis from conquering the entire world), so the sacrifices were more justifiable, though the dead might disagree I suppose. In Vietnam, the whole thing was a pointless, meaningless charade, so all the death and horror was completely pointless.
If you want to talk about sheer numbers of dead, then yeah WWII has it beat, but it was also a much larger war. I can't verify this, but I wonder how many people per capita were killed in both and which is the higher number.
@SuperXAsh: I think Frank was refering to William Burnside, if he is, in fact, the '60s era cap that was fighting against the Soviets. As for Spider-Man's remarks, I support that view. Frank and Steve are both extremely well-trained, deadly one-man-armies, with one HUGE difference: Frank was never given any augmentation. He's just a normal man, albeit honed to a Batman-like level of extremes. However, I never really bought into that view to begin with. He's just TOO GOOD! Its been suggested, however vaguely, that Frank was treated with something akin to the Super Soldier Serum that Steve was given. But, much like Burnside or Protocide, the process wasn't complete, and Frank's obsessive love of war was the end result. I think that would tie in quite nicely with PUNISHER: BORN. That really DOES make The Punisher the 'Nam-equivalent of Captain America. But, Morrisson's Punisher MAX is established as outside of regular (616) or Ultimate (1610) continuity. However, Frank's vaguely referenced augmentation has only ever been mentioned in Marvel's regular (616) continuity. And it was very vague....
I see Captain America beating up a lot of anti-war hippies, and slapping Jane Fonda. That, and a lot of CCR music in the background everywhere he went.
I agree that the idea of a Vietnam-era Cap'n going crazy in that era would be far too cliched. But maybe having the guy be corrupt from the get-go, maybe inserted into his post by nepotism or a crafty Congressman/higher-up who wants his own guy in the role - now that'd be interesting. Still overdone, but it'd give both Captain Americas an additional friend and foe, as well as opening up more potential story arcs and a long-term payoff. I wouldn't make it any secret, either - that "man behind the curtain" stuff gets kind of old. But it could be fun for the writers and readers alike to discover new and inventive ways to throw an old 616 character into the role.
If the vietcong had stod because of one man, then Cap could have made a difference in Marvels world like he did by punching out Hitler, otherwise no.
I would like to say Protocide, the guy who almost killed Cap and just vanished from comics, is the best fit for this Cap. Think of it he has all the things that this Cap would need to fight in Vietnam. He's ruthless and has the will to kill with no regrets.
" Another gimmick. There is no reason that Cap should be inserted into the quagmire that was Vietnam. Will an insertion into the current conflicts be next ? "It's going to be another Cap in the Ultimate U that was active during Steve's time out of action. I think the idea is lame nonetheless, another Vietnam made me evil character?
Why woudl a 'nam cap have to turn against his country to "go wonky"?
A lot of things went "wonky" in 'nam so it'd be perfectly within reason for a 'nam cap to be a bit "wonky".
I also see a lot of people saying that his character would be darker. Why is that? What is the real difference between WW2 and Vietnam, other than the fact that WW2 was 20 times more destructive than Vietnam. War is War and Cap is a soldier. He would do his duty. Guess what? His duty in Vietnam would be the same as his duty in WW2, protecting the interests of the United States. Yes, Vietnam was a horrible war that was completely pointless. Yes there were a few atrocities committed by American soldiers, but guess what, those exact same atrocities were committed in WW2. War is War and Cap is a soldier. Contrary to popular belief, we were not viewed as the "bad guys" in Vietnam, especially in the South (RVN). We should not have been there, but the cause in Vietnam was at least somewhat noble.
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