Wow, can't believe this thread got so long. I guess that's what happens with racially charged threads. lol
Black Panther
Character » Black Panther appears in 3341 issues.
T'Challa is the Black Panther, king of Wakanda, one of the most technologically advanced nations on Earth. He is among the top intellects and martial artists of the world, a veteran Avenger, and a member of the Illuminati. Using his powers and abilities, he has pledged his fortune, powers, and life to the service of all mankind.
Why the black panther?
" Wow, can't believe this thread got so long. I guess that's what happens with racially charged threads. lol "actually we've been debating melanism in large cat species
" Wow, can't believe this thread got so long. I guess that's what happens with racially charged threads. lol "We were not discussing race as there is only one human race. The bulk of the conversations was with myself ans static shock over what I believe to be a strategic error on the writers part to arm himself and some of his soldiers with spears and shields.
I believe they should be armed as per the Black Panther Animated series.
And to finish the history lesson, 80's early 90's characters were all about violent gunslingers like Punisher and Cable inspired by films like Rambo and Terminator. Also, the thriving American economy of the 80's, gave us evil business men that inspired The King Pen and turned Lex Luthor from a mad-scientist, to a businessman.
Now that comics are inspiring films, and not the other way around, I'm cautious to see what happens
It would be stupid for dc to have a regular series called catman,when they already have a popular comic called batman,anyway,the catman charecter is more relatable than T'Challa and in time his importance as a charecter might grow if handled properly by writers,he has potential, wheras black panther hasn't gotten over in 44 years so he obviously won't ever be getting over with readers,at least not as he is.
Batman dousn't come from dracula,he comes from zorro and the shadow,also no would really be upset if black panther was some dude,if he were some dude than more black people and people in general could relate to him,the average black american cannot relate to and african tribal stuff.
Trying to justify the fact that Catman doesn't have a book, while T'Challa has had several and was in several issues with the Avengers doesn't help your case much. The fact that you think T'Challa isn't a character that people can relate to is your opinion, anyway. Several Black Panther fans understand the character well, so your inability to do so and/or relate to him doesn't necessarily translate to everyone else. Catman has been in publication since 1963. That's 47 years and not even close to over a hundred appearances. Not even a limited series in his name. If it has to take up to 50 years to see the potential of a character grow and we haven't seen it by now, we may never, ever see it. T'Challa's potential has already shown itself, and at the same time, he's had more than Catman has ever had, and will ever have. While Black Panther volumes weren't consistent or didn't last over hundreds of issues per volume, his individual books were still being bought (even if the sales weren't that great, in comparison to other titles featuring flagship characters). No one can buy a Catman book because he doesn't have one." @Static Shock: It would be stupid for dc to have a regular series called catman,when they already have a popular comic called batman,anyway,the catman charecter is more relatable than T'Challa and in time his importance as a charecter might grow if handled properly by writers,he has potential, wheras black panther hasn't gotten over in 44 years so he obviously won't ever be getting over with readers,at least not as he is. "
Saying that it would be stupid to give Catman his own series because Batman (a flagship character who's mass appeal exceeds Catman and Black Panther, combined) is already a popular series just tells me that you don't think Catman is worthy of or marketable enough for his own book. Thus, it defeats the purpose of defending Catman, in general. If you think more people can relate to the guy, why shouldn't he have his own book?
@bigalow
said:If this is the case, how come Black Lightning (an average Black American superhero) isn't as popular as Black Panther (an above-average African superhero and king)? How come Storm (an above-average African superheroine and queen) is more popular than say... Misty Knight (an average Black American superheroine)?" if he were some dude than more black people and people in general could relate to him,the average black american cannot relate to and african tribal stuff. "
Somebody has to be reading and paying money for books that are showcasing these African-oriented characters, right? So, tell me. If people can't relate to them, where are all these fans coming from? Someone has to be reading them, correct?
Storm and blaclbolt don't have there own solo series,and when i talik of catman,i'm talking of his more recent re vamped charecter as he apperes in secret six,origionally he was just a d-list villian but recently his charecter has been revived,and the fact that he is a guy people can relate does make him better than black panther,face it black panther will always be cancelled and never be popular so long as the readers cannot relate.
" @Static Shock: Storm and blaclbolt don't have there own solo seriesStorm has been a recurring X-Men character, and has been in thousands of comics. She doesn't need her own ongoing series (even though she's had some mini series here and there). Black Bolt has had his own series. It's called the Inhumans, and he's the lead character.
@bigalow said:
" when i talik of catman,i'm talking of his more recent re vamped charecter as he apperes in secret six,origionally he was just a d-list villian but recently his charecter has been revivedIt's the same Catman, and it's not a question of whether or not he's been revamped. The identity of the character hasn't changed, either. The same D-list villain from back in the day is the same D-list anti-hero/villain that he is now.
Black Panther is an established B-list superhero. Catman needs to get his weight up.
@bigalow said:
" and the fact that he is a guy people can relate does make him better than black pantherI'm not sure how that's possible, judging by the fact that Black Panther has a larger fanbase than Catman. People are obviously able to relate to him, as a result, but you don't get it. The fact that you think Catman is better than Black Panther is your opinion, and I can respect that. Saying that people don't relate to him is something entirely different.
@bigalow said:
"face it black panther will always be cancelled"While Catman will never sell a comic book simply because he doesn't have one of his own, and isn't marketable enough to have his own series. It's not that difficult to understand, and I think having a series (even though it gets canceled) is better than not having one at all.
@bigalow said:
"and never be popular so long as the readers cannot relate. "That's the problem. Black Panther is already popular, more so than Catman. That's the undeniable fact that you constantly overlook. if he wasn't popular, people wouldn't buy his books or he would never have his own books, and he would never have so many appearances. Another thing that you are overlooking.
As i said earlier it would be kinda stupid for dc to have both a batman and catman series,but anyway black panther is a d-lister,his titles would have lasted longer if he was a b-lister and we'll see how they continue to develop catman,he will probubly one day have a mini series and secret six is doing alright,also they have never tried to give catman a solo series so we don't know how well it would do ,wheras marvel have been attemting black panther comics for 44 years and have always failed as the charecter dousn't capture the reader imagination.
Also,black panther is not popular,otherwise he would't have been getting cancelled for 44 years,despite the repeated attempts of marvel to get his charecter over ,wheras the re-vamped catman has only been around for a few years and i don't know to what extant there going to push his charecter,but if they try and fail repeatadly to get his charecter over for longer than 44 years,than you might have an argument.
Batman having a series has nothing to do with Catman (they are two different characters), so I'm not sure why you think it's stupid." @Static Shock: As i said earlier it would be kinda stupid for dc to have both a batman and catman series
@bigalow
said:If he was a D-lister, he wouldn't have an ongoing, period. Yet, he's had several.",but anyway black panther is a d-lister,his titles would have lasted longer if he was a b-lister
@bigalow
said:How do you know that Black Panther doesn't capture every readers' imagination? Where's your proof?"wheras marvel have been attemting black panther comics for 44 years and have always failed as the charecter dousn't capture the reader imagination. "
A series getting canceled is the result a lot of things. Not just what you stated. The character has captured my imagination, and a lot of other Black Panther fans. You have absolutely no idea why he gets canceled.
@bigalow
said:Yes, he is, and more popular than Catman. If Black Panther wasn't popular, he wouldn't sell." Also,black panther is not popular
@bigalow
said:otherwise he would't have been getting cancelled for 44 years,despite the repeated attempts of marvel to get his charecter over
The fact that he's had several ongoings and limited series proves that he is popular. You can't dispute that. Catman has never had a book to himself, and has been around for 47 years. That's even worse than having Black Panther's series canceled.
@bigalow
said:LOL. Are you reading what you're saying? DC has been pushing him for 47 years. How come he doesn't have his OWN BOOK yet? Argue that. He went from being a lackluster villain with a minuscule amount of appearances, to getting a spot on the Secret Six. Big whoop. Black Panther has been on the Avengers for over 20 years, was a recurring Fantastic Four character, has had two limited series, four ongoings, several issues in Jungle Action, several issues in Marvel Comics Presents, was a lead character in a recent Marvel event, and has had hundreds of appearances in other Marvel books. Black Panther has done more in 44 years than Catman has in 47 years. Admit it. Black Panther has sold books in his own name. Admit it. More popular character would have more appearances. Admit it."but if they try and fail repeatadly to get his charecter over for longer than 44 years,than you might have an argument. "
The evidence is against you.
No the evidence is against you,the fact is that marvel has been trying for 44 years to ger black panther over and it has always failed,if they try for another 44 years it will also fail.catman is a charecter that the average american can relate too,so if the writers continue to handle him right he will have greater success with fewer apperances than black panther,thats what your scared of
" @Static Shock: No the evidence is against youThe evidence can't be against me because there's more going for Black Panther that proves his popular. You just don't want to admit that. I've said it several times. You have evidence of nothing. All you're saying is that that no one can relate to him. That is your opinion.
@bigalow said:
",the fact is that marvel has been trying for 44 years to ger black panther over and it has always failed,if they try for another 44 years it will also fail. "What exactly did they fail at with Black Panther? He's had his own book. Catman hasn't. What you fail to realize is that Black Panther sells. If he sells, people are obviously into his character. You don't work for Marvel, so you have no idea how or why he failed, if anything. Black Panther has brought Marvel money with his own titles. Catman has never done such a thing. Marvel has gained more from Black Panther than DC has with Catman. It's so obvious, and you continue to ignore that.
@bigalow said:
".catman is a charecter that the average american can relate too,so if the writers continue to handle him right he will have greater success with fewer apperances than black panther,thats what your scared of "The fact that he's an average American (it's not even an issue of race or nationality) is inconsequential. Why would I be afraid of Catman having greater success with fewer appearances, when Black Panther's success already exceeds his? What is there to be afraid of? Having over 800 appearances >>>> 80 appearances, no matter how you cut it. Stop saying 'if'. It notes a hypothetical situation. You're just speculating. I'm talking about the status of both characters right now. Gail Simone isn't even a highly-respected writer, and her material is sub-par. What exactly is she doing right for him? She probably isn't doing any better than the writers before he did with his character.
@bigalow said:
" @Static Shock: they also haven't been pushing catman for 47 yearsI stopped right here. He was created 47 years ago. DC has obviously been pushing him since then. I don't want to hear that.
If black panther were successful than his every attempt at a solo series wouldn't fail,he is not a successful charecter because his titles are always canceled due to poor sales,catman has not been pushed by writers for 47 years,in his earlier apperances he was written as a failer,but his re-vamped depiction shows him as a sucessful anti hero,he has only been getting a push from writers for a few years,wheras black panthers failed push has lasted 44 years,we'll see how long it takes to get catman over,or even if future writers and editors want to continue the catman push,if dc tried to push catman as long as marvel has pushed black panther than he would get over,in short catman would get over in 44 years wheras black panther hasn't,catman could if given the continued right handling by writers, be a good b list or c list charecter.
The fact remains that Black Panther titles have made money. His name has made money. Catman hasn't made anything. In short, Black Panther has been more successful than Catman. It's an issue of money. On average, Black Panther titles sell about 20,000 copies, at least. May not be much, but still. How much has Catman sold?" If black panther were successful than his every attempt at a solo series wouldn't fail,he is not a successful charecter because his titles are always canceled due to poor sales
@bigalow said:
" catman has not been pushed by writers for 47 years,in his earlier apperances he was written as a failer,but his re-vamped depiction shows him as a sucessful anti hero,he has only been getting a push from writers for a few years
A character being created and written into a comic book means that he's being pushed. Period. Stalemating Batman and giving Bronze Tiger a fight while he was holding back doesn't make Catman successful. Gail Simone doesn't even know how to write, anyway.
@bigalow said:
" wheras black panthers failed push has lasted 44 yearsWith over 800 appearances, and a number of them being his own titles. Catman has next to nothing and he's been around for 47 years. Revamped or not, it's still Tom Blake.
@bigalow said:
" we'll see how long it takes to get catman over,or even if future writers and editors want to continue the catman push,if dc tried to push catman as long as marvel has pushed black panther than he would get over,in short catman would get over in 44 years wheras black panther hasn't,catman could if given the continued right handling by writers, be a good b list or c list charecter. "You're still saying 'if.' Speculation. Nothing else to discuss, really.
Most of the early back superheroes were called black something or other.
Black Panther
Black Lightning
Black Goliath
Let's move on people
Speak for yourself." @Static Shock: Catman has not been as exposed as black panther so he hasn't had the chance to sell alot of comics,if catman had the exposure black panther has had he would be more successful as he is a charecter that people can relate to, "
I can't relate to Cat man in any way, size or form.
The Black Panther on the other hand is a multi-layered character created by Jack Kirby who was severely mishandled after Kirby and Don McGregor's distinctive runs on the character until he was ressurected by Christopher Priest who went on to do stellar work on the character before handinding over to Reginald Hudlin after a 62 issue run.
Reginal Hudlin's run though not as groundbreaking as Priest's sold quite well up until Jonathan Maberry's short lived run on the BP book which saw cancellation just before the beginning of Doomwar which was more of a deification of Doom as a character of renown as opposed to to the traditional revenge of T'Challa over the villain Doom who tried to kill him in the final issues of the BP book that Hudlin penned before handing off to Maberry.
Obviously. Took you long enough." @Static Shock: Catman has not been as exposed as black panther so he hasn't had the chance to sell alot of comics
@bigalow said:
You're still speculating, still thinking that no one can relate to the Black Panther (based on your opinion, because he's African). There's nothing more to discuss, as I said earlier."if catman had the exposure black panther has had he would be more successful as he is a charecter that people can relate to, "
The fact is that the average reader cannot identify with the whole african tribal thing,catman is just some dude so the reader can relate better,also black panther has no good villians,a hero is only as strong as the villian he fights,thats another weakness of the black panther comics.
no one ever asked for more black panther comics,marvel just keeps trying. "How do you know nobody asked for more Black Panther comics?
People have bought them. Saying that no one bought is like saying that his books have zero sales. Black Panther books, since volume 2, have sold at least 20,000 copies. It's better than nothing, and it's a shame Catman hasn't achieved those numbers. Sucks not having his own book." @Static Shock: If people had asked for them than they would have bought them "
@bigalow
said:The only Black Panther book that saw cancellation was volume 4, with Shuri as the Black Panther. All other books ended because the run (the story itself) was finished and there was nothing else to write. So, there. Just because a book lasts for a certain number of issues doesn't mean that it was canceled. Some books are actually established to have a run with a certain number of issues (prior to being written), and aren't actually mean to run indefinitely like all other flagship characters do. His earlier runs started in Jungle Action #5 and ran for 20 issues in that book until the story came to an end. Then, he got his own series (Black Panther vol 1.), which ran for 15 issues and continued in Marvel Premiere after that for three issues until that story ended. Then, he had a 4-issue limited series in 1988 (it was supposed to be short), and had a short story in Marvel Comics Presents in 1989 than ran for 25 issues until the story ended. Then, a graphic novel in 1991 (Panther's Prey), volume 2 in 1998 (ran for 62 issues, and the story came to an end), and volume 3 in 2005 (ran for 41 issues, plus an annual, and it ended with the Secret Invasion)."poor sales are the reason for black panthers cancellations. "
Catman has no books. Period.
Not so there, ther short lived because no too many people buy them,he's not popular,if he was than he would have at least 1 ongoing series and would have wider circulation,also catman hasn't yet had a solo series,as i posted before it would seem kinda stupid for them to have both batman and catman solo series.
They are short-lived because they were intended to be short stories. Marvel never intended for Black Panther to have a continuous ongoing series. If he's not popular, he wouldn't have sold over 20,000 copies. He may not be as popular as people such as Batman, but he's obviously more popular than Catman is. Judging by sales, there's a level of popularity there. Add to the fact that Black Panther had an animated mini-series based on the first 6 issues of volume 3 and has been in two video games that sold millions of copies (Marvel; Ultimate Alliance, both installments). You gonna tell me he's not popular still? If not, he wouldn't have had that, either. If not, he wouldn't have been in a video game. I don't see Catman doing any better. The fact that you think it would be stupid for him to have a solo series because Batman has one (and I already said that Batman has nothing to do with Catman) doesn't make sense. Catman is an individual character, and if he was as popular as you say, he would have his own ongoing by now. Sadly, he doesn't." @Static Shock: Not so there, ther short lived because no too many people buy them,he's not popular,if he was than he would have at least 1 ongoing series and would have wider circulation,also catman hasn't yet had a solo series,as i posted before it would seem kinda stupid for them to have both batman and catman solo series. "
" @Static Shock: The way bussiness works is to make moneyHe's been doing that, unfortunately. It isn't much, but Catman isn't marketable, anyway.
@bigalow said:
"if black panther where popular he would have an ongoing series which marvel could contiously make money off of,but he dousn't sell and as a result he is cancelled. "The fact that he has had an ongoing makes him popular, regardless. Saying he doesn't sell is ignorance, after I just got through saying that he's sold over 20,000 copies on average. The only title that was actually canceled was Black Panther v4.
The title itself is marketable. Catman, by himself, isn't. The book isn't selling because of him (there are different characters on the team, not just him). Besides, Secret Six's numbers aren't any better than Black Panther's have been, monthly. It's been selling a little over 20,000 copies a month, and it's been ranked in the mid-90. I just checked on comichron.com. Its sales have been declining since its debut, and they will keep declining. The first issue only sold almost 32,000 copies. The first issues of Black Panther vol 2 (56,000), vol 3 (50,000), and vol 4 (46,000) all sold better than Secret Six's first issue." @Static Shock: Catman is marketable,secret six must have sold well in order for them to turn it into a regular series. "
But, in any case, that title doesn't sell any better than Black Panther's.
First, I think Black Panther is a great character and if I could aford it I would buy a reagular ongoing of him.
Second (if it hasn't been brought up yet), why is Black Bolt called "Black Bolt" if he isn't black? Or Black Flash, Black Adam, ect.
These are obviously not race related names, same could very well go for BP, they probably just made him black to go with the name.
"@bigalow said:The title itself is marketable. Catman, by himself, isn't. The book isn't selling because of him (there are different characters on the team, not just him). Besides, Secret Six's numbers aren't any better than Black Panther's have been, monthly. It's been selling a little over 20,000 copies a month, and it's been ranked in the mid-90. I just checked on comichron.com. Its sales have been declining since its debut, and they will keep declining. The first issue only sold almost 32,000 copies. The first issues of Black Panther vol 2 (56,000), vol 3 (50,000), and vol 4 (46,000) all sold better than Secret Six's first issue. But, in any case, that title doesn't sell any better than Black Panther's. "" @Static Shock: Catman is marketable,secret six must have sold well in order for them to turn it into a regular series. "
agreed..
You do't know if catman's marketable or not,he has never had a solo series. and i don't think he will,unless his charecter becomes real popular,because it would be funny to have one series called batman and another called catman,the uneducated would think it was just some ripoff charecter.
" @Static Shock: You do't know if catman's marketable or not.If he was, he'd obviously have his own title by now.
@bigalow said:
" and i don't think he willI agree.
@bigalow said:
"because it would be funny to have one series called batman and another called catman,the uneducated would think it was just some ripoff charecter. "Then, let the uneducated appeal to their own ignorance. Comic book fans know that Catman isn't in any way related to Batman.
" Why did they call the black panther the black panther and make an issue out of his race? spiderman isn't called the white spiderman,also why did they make black panther an african prince?white superheroes aren't european princes,black panther should just be an average guy like spiderman who just so happens to be black,that would be a better story,that being said black panther has the best name and costume out of all the cat related superheroes(catman,wildcat.ect)though he has the worst backstory,catman has the best backstory. "
Do you take offense to this? If so, explain further........
no its not a good question its a stupid
black panther denotes to the animal wich he gains his powers from not his race
Panther is ok but his writing has been lackluster. He doesn't bring anything new to the avengers. I never knew why he came to America to fight crime when there are ghastly things going on in Africa.
He doesn't bring anything new to the avengers.The same can be said for most of the Avengers characters.
" Panther is ok but his writing has been lackluster... I never knew why he came to America to fight crime when there are ghastly things going on in Africa. "
If Black Panther and Storm were real, they would probably unite Africa and save it from outsiders and itself. I wish that would happen, but that is such a difficult thing to address.
They Had a White Panther during Black Panther volume 3, because he was the first and only Anglo-Wakandan whom was the leader of wakanda's greatest task forces. He was T'Challa adopted brother.That was Hunter. He was actually the leader of the White Wolves, a.k.a. the Hatut Zeraze. He was never considered a Panther.
black panther is a great character and his book man without fear is a great series so far. Also he's pretty badass on the avengers earth's mightiest heroes show. i can't wait for them to make a movie about black panther he has so much potential.
Please Log In to post.
This edit will also create new pages on Comic Vine for:
Beware, you are proposing to add brand new pages to the wiki along with your edits. Make sure this is what you intended. This will likely increase the time it takes for your changes to go live.Comment and Save
Until you earn 1000 points all your submissions need to be vetted by other Comic Vine users. This process takes no more than a few hours and we'll send you an email once approved.
Log in to comment