I don't care for him at all. He's pretty irrelevant.

" T'challa has abandoned more than just the Black Panther identity - he's also discarded all of the high tech weaponry and gadgets that have come to be associated with it. In "Black Panther: The Man Without Fear," his main armaments will be his cunning, intellect and wealth of combat skills. "We decided going into this that he was not going to be able to use anything that he can't build or buy himself," Liss remarked. "He doesn't have access to his wealth either, as he's walked away from everything in his former life."--------------------------------------------------------------------------------"The other aspect of "Black Panther: The Man Without Fear" that Liss finds intriguing is the chance to drop T'Challa, the former king of the fictional African nation known as Wakanda, into the middle of the crime ridden wasteland that the Kitchen has become post "Shadowland." "We're taking somebody who has always been royalty - his father was a king and he's been a powered superhero and a monarch for a large portion of his life. We're stripping all of that away from him. He has no powers. He has no Wakandan tech. This series is about somebody trying to figure out what he's made of and who he is. He's coming to this environment, which is so dangerous and troubled, to test himself," Liss explained. "That's what I really loved about this project. It was an opportunity to rethink a long established and iconic character in very interesting way." ------David Liss---------why did they need to do all that for a "street" story when he was already " Street" ?.... -

@InnerVenom123 said:

@Mercy_ said:

I don't care about him enough to hate him.

he's a king from another far away land, married to a woman who controls the weather.

Im a chubby kid from a trailer park with a wife who only rains Sh*t on.

No Vance you are wrong. You keep talking about who's "out of his league" and that's stupid! You are wrong because Marvel doesn't agree with YOU. You brought up Jungle action when you brought up Killmonger. I just pointed out that he fought a army alone. Next tbe supremacist where not street level! There zero indication that they were "spiderman" level. All the guys you mention are characters from the freaking 70's! Get real dude. Look at the article where Hickman himself said that stuff is a different era and Marvel isn't using it! You ignore Klaw...you keep ignoring the rogue MOST tied to him! Listen to yourself, he can beat both! He's beaten ironman! He has beast non-street levelers ... He's beat all the non-street characters I mentioned, and I will make sure this thread stays bumbed moving forward so everyone can see how wrong you are. Next Liss removed all his tech and powers...please don't make me post links. He's says it himself. He called him a force of nature. You keep ignoring his technology! Why? Your issues is the whole "out of your league" nonsense...he's beaten Ironman how many times? IM has Ghost, Boomerrang, spymaster amongst others as villains who are "street" it's time for you to stop now. lol

"Man-Ape,Killmonger,Venomm,Malice,Baron Macabre,King Cadaver,Lord Karnaj,Madame Slay,Wind Eagle" out of these Villians, how many of them besides Killmonger has he fought in last 3 runs Hudlin/Aaron, Maberry and Liss? I will wait. And how many are dead? Thanks. Lol

"Man-Ape,Killmonger,Venomm,Malice,Baron Macabre,King Cadaver,Lord Karnaj,Madame Slay,Wind Eagle" out of these Villians, how many of them besides Killmonger has he fought in last 3 runs Hudlin/Aaron, Maberry and Liss? I will wait. And how many are dead? Thanks. Lol

I agree with Vance Astro when it comes to his events point. Events take over most of the attention and if a character is left out--heck, even if they're a minor/background character--then they are forgotten. This is one of the reasons why I feel events are destroying the comics industry.

Did he fight them? malice II was killed. malice I might have, but he didn't fight her. Man Ape was killed off by Hudlin who didn't like the character. my point is they are not even used beyond Killmonger.

Did he fight them? malice II was killed. malice I might have, but he didn't fight her. Man Ape was killed off by Hudlin who didn't like the character. my point is they are not even used beyond Killmonger.

People would care more about T'Challa if Marvel would PUT OUT SOME PANTHER STORIES! He is as high caliber a character as Stark of Fantastic, yet they don't do anything with him.

 my point is they are not even used beyond Killmonger.

the best thing about Liss run, is that the "street" crap is dead! I know for a fact that Liss and Rosemann saw the complaints. And then Hickman suddenly is dealing with him. twenty, Liss also said the same...he needs to be connected to the wider meta plot. Look at AvX now he suddenly stepping up each issue? Maybe they finally get the picture? Maybe not.

the best thing about Liss run, is that the "street" crap is dead! I know for a fact that Liss and Rosemann saw the complaints. And then Hickman suddenly is dealing with him. twenty, Liss also said the same...he needs to be connected to the wider meta plot. Look at AvX now he suddenly stepping up each issue? Maybe they finally get the picture? Maybe not.

Well that's your opinion. We will have to agree to disagree here. But I will make sure I bring it back up with Marvel NOW stuff. You have not provided anything to refute anything said. Like Hickman said, disregarding that stuff and all those dead Villians who besides Killmonger will likey not return, he has not been Street. The last three runs were not really "street". He has high-technology that he carries on his person...He's really no different then Ironman...only he does not wear power armor 24/7...this is something Marvel is pushing. See the toons where they have said it, see AvX #6 and #7. Read Hickman comments. I mean Whiplash isn't exactly a powerhouse either Vance! Neither is Ghost, Boomerrang, Spymaster and a number of Ironman "street" foes that you claimed he didn't fight! Like Tony he also fights and defeats powerhouses! Which leads to whining about PIS because they want to place limitations on him that Marvel isn't and has not. And it now seems Marvel might have got the message after the "street" run. Magic and Tech mixed is not street.# MarvelNOW.

@Vance all those sold fine. Lol. You missed the point also. That they don't view him as Street, they don't think it's a correct fit. Read the quote I posted by Hickman. He says it clearly.

Well that's your opinion. We will have to agree to disagree here. But I will make sure I bring it back up with Marvel NOW stuff. You have not provided anything to refute anything said. Like Hickman said, disregarding that stuff and all those dead Villians who besides Killmonger will likey not return, he has not been Street. The last three runs were not really "street". He has high-technology that he carries on his person...He's really no different then Ironman...only he does not wear power armor 24/7...this is something Marvel is pushing. See the toons where they have said it, see AvX #6 and #7. Read Hickman comments. I mean Whiplash isn't exactly a powerhouse either Vance! Neither is Ghost, Boomerrang, Spymaster and a number of Ironman "street" foes that you claimed he didn't fight! Like Tony he also fights and defeats powerhouses! Which leads to whining about PIS because they want to place limitations on him that Marvel isn't and has not. And it now seems Marvel might have got the message after the "street" run. Magic and Tech mixed is not street.# MarvelNOW.

Most BP hate lies in the hearts of Storm fans, I think. That and he's a poor man's Batman (I'm NOT being racist).

@Vance all those sold fine.

@Joygirl said:

Most BP hate lies in the hearts of Storm fans, I think. That and he's a poor man's Batman (I'm NOT being racist).

A handful hate BP because of that, but most only hate the marriage, and I think the perception that he is a poor man's Batman is what will keep him from getting a movie because everyone who sees the trailer will basically think the same thing. I don't think he is, in some ways I like him, but he is a failed idea Marvel gave him plenty of times to shine and he never caught on, he would do great as a mainstay Avenger, but falls short as a solo hero.

@Joygirl said:

Most BP hate lies in the hearts of Storm fans, I think. That and he's a poor man's Batman (I'm NOT being racist).

A handful hate BP because of that, but most only hate the marriage, and I think the perception that he is a poor man's Batman is what will keep him from getting a movie because everyone who sees the trailer will basically think the same thing. I don't think he is, in some ways I like him, but he is a failed idea Marvel gave him plenty of times to shine and he never caught on, he would do great as a mainstay Avenger, but falls short as a solo hero.

@Vance Astro said:

@Blood1991 said:

@Joygirl said:

Most BP hate lies in the hearts of Storm fans, I think. That and he's a poor man's Batman (I'm NOT being racist).

A handful hate BP because of that, but most only hate the marriage, and I think the perception that he is a poor man's Batman is what will keep him from getting a movie because everyone who sees the trailer will basically think the same thing. I don't think he is, in some ways I like him, but he is a failed idea Marvel gave him plenty of times to shine and he never caught on, he would do great as a mainstay Avenger, but falls short as a solo hero.

If the marriage hadn't been used a way to increase interest for Black Panther and there was actually some plan for it...it would have worked out better.

I've always felt they sacrificed her to try and make him a headlining character, if it had worked I think it would have benifited both of them, but it simply didn't. When it failed they threw her in the background, gave him one last go and when it didn't work they dusted Storm off and gave her a role again.

I've always felt they sacrificed her to try and make him a headlining character, if it had worked I think it would have benifited both of them, but it simply didn't. When it failed they threw her in the background, gave him one last go and when it didn't work they dusted Storm off and gave her a role again.

Vance who talking sales? You. Hudlin run sold fine, from the tour, CW, Skrulls issues it was seeking just fine.the Killmonger arc (again proving my point) didn't ...Liss run didn't. See wakanda and die NYT best sellar and sold out for 2nd prints. But again..So what. That's besides the point. My point is that your premise and arguement is dying. "No More Street" ...then what Vance? I love how you are bring up sales when that has nothing to do with "street foes" but ok. Let add this, it proves my point.

@Vance Astro said:

@Blood1991 said:

I've always felt they sacrificed her to try and make him a headlining character, if it had worked I think it would have benifited both of them, but it simply didn't. When it failed they threw her in the background, gave him one last go and when it didn't work they dusted Storm off and gave her a role again.

The thing is they didn't have to sacrifice her. They could have went after the fame together and really showed readers that Marvel cares cares about black superheroes.

Exactly! They should have headlined together. They treated her as if she were Mera. She has her own fanbase, stories and history outside of anything he has done.

They should have had a title together. It was rumored that Dwayne Mcduffie might have took the title before his passing, after Doomwar. Brevoort mentioned that they did indeed talk about a shared headlined title at a retreat. After Axel became EIC that died, because they now had different editorial teams and the X offices wanted to use her. There is nothing stopping it from occurring now though.

Vance who talking sales? You. Hudlin run sold fine, from the tour, CW, Skrulls issues it was seeking just fine.the Killmonger arc (again proving my point) didn't ...Liss run didn't. See wakanda and die NYT best sellar and sold out for 2nd prints. But again..So what. That's besides the point. My point is that your premise and arguement is dying. "No More Street" ...then what Vance? I love how you are bring up sales when that has nothing to do with "street foes" but ok. Let add this, it proves my point.

 Hudlin run sold fine, from the tour, CW, Skrulls issues it was seeking just fine.

Can't post it because of browers support. But I will. It sold fine...until they removed him from the title.

I'm just saying this... most fans don't I don't think have a problem relateing to a king taking on "street level" villans as long as a it makes sense and during Priest's run it all made perfect sense. Panther has taken on Doom and other non-street level villians enough to be considered a major player.

But I just don't think fans are reading and saying "a King who fights crime? not for me".

Yes, there are other characters that have the same problem as BP but if his race isnt one major obstacle in peoples ablitly to relate, name another Black character who doesn't have the same struggles.

@Vance Astro said:

@TheThe said:

If Wakanda is a bad thing, why characters like Aquaman are popular with tons of comics sales ?

He's and active and recognizable member of the Justice League. The Justice Friends cartoon and various other media outside of comics showed the world who Aquaman is. Even if you don't take the character serious, you know who he is. His sales increase was due to the DCU reboot\revamp though. I think alot of DC's characters saw a boost after that.

In addition to which whenever Aquaman's sales have been at their peak is when he is either not or less tied to Atlantis. His run under PAD had him having a lot of surface adventures, fighting villains on land, wehn Peter David left the ties to Atlantis returned and sales plummeted. In the 70's his run in Adventure did well and he had relenquished the throne and lived in a US city called New Venice ( I'm sure I don't have to tell you what that was like). His current runs is also very much in the surface world for the most.

Mykheal race is a huge issue. There is nothing wrong with Street, but it's clear that Liss run suffered because of it's premise. It was a good run, yet lots of core fans turned their backs. If you look at sales, the book sold better with non-"street" stories. Hickman comments ate based on Marvel looking at some issues and finally saying...ok yeah we didn't see that. The Marvel NOW Avenger is Global and Cosmic. T'challa main thing recently has been Technology and Magic mixed, like Doom....both Hicman and Fraction keep highlighting it. If you read the current reviews, he's been prasied in AvX. Like any character he has his detractors, though he a vocal minority who care so much and hate at the same time. To me things are looking up.

he could be marvel's batman if handled properly

I'm just saying this... most fans don't I don't think have a problem relateing to a king taking on "street level" villans as long as a it makes sense and during Priest's run it all made perfect sense. Panther has taken on Doom and other non-street level villians enough to be considered a major player.

Yes, there are other characters that have the same problem as BP but if his race isnt one major obstacle in peoples ablitly to relate, name another Black character who doesn't have the same struggles.

Mykheal race is a huge issue. There is nothing wrong with Street, but it's clear that Liss run suffered because of it's premise. It was a good run, yet lots of core fans turned their backs. If you look at sales, the book sold better with non-"street" stories. Hickman comments ate based on Marvel looking at some issues and finally saying...ok yeah we didn't see that. The Marvel NOW Avenger is Global and Cosmic. T'challa main thing recently has been Technology and Magic mixed, like Doom....both Hicman and Fraction keep highlighting it. If you read the current reviews, he's been prasied in AvX. Like any character he has his detractors, though he a vocal minority who care so much and hate at the same time. To me things are looking up.

I like him. I'm just not that hooked on the character though.

i love black panther

Vance, no it Did not sell better. Dude please look at the the real numbers....under Hudlin it sold the best, and for me his run was up and down..but the CW arc, the F4/Skrulls arc, See Wakanda and Die all sold every well and higher then anything during Liss run. Shuri's Run under Hudlin also sold better! He wrote up until issue # 6. Nearly all "street" stories and "street foes" the numbers dipped! And who you just wrote was false. I loved his run..but facts are facts and even Hickman AGREES!

I still like him..I guess 
 
Still waiting on that divorce though...

Vance, no it Did not sell better. Dude please look at the the real numbers....under Hudlin it sold the best,

@Umbraa

 and for me his run was up and down..but the CW arc, the F4/Skrulls arc, See Wakanda and Die all sold every well and higher then anything during Liss run.

Fair enough, i missed that, Apologies. Still, I don't think it's was a lesser role. I love Matt, and he's a great character. But T'challa in my opinion is a different character, a opinion Marvel now seems to fully agree. He's A character who has never been written to his full potential to date. So the "brought down to badass" wasn't really a good idea for Marvel with him. It's happened before. The stories were good, just not a fit this character! Herc fans didn't feel his de-powering either for the most part. It just that he's not a Street Level Character! He's a "Science-Action-GuIle" Hero. He's the Dr. Doom if he was good guy! A "Secret City Science King" as coined by J. Hickman. Doom is a "Science King"! T'challa is a "Science King." plus, you never hear anyone call Reed Richards a "street character"...like T'challa his mind is his real power! Is Lex Luthor considered "Street"? And so to get him to MWF they had to remove all his perks to make him that...and that's been my point this entire debate. Matt is a different character, he's not a "Science Hero" or "Science King"...and to me levels don't matter...these fanboy-forum rules are totally ignored by writers...look at Brevoort twitter feed...there is an example about time travel and fans complaining about rules. Likewise, power levels don't matter..the Story comes first...so characters like BP and Ironman will have different types of foes as the story dictates...in the case of BP...he should not be in many Street Stories...his stories should be Global, Mystical and Cosmic. And we are seeing that now after the "total street" experiment that failed.

Still, I don't think it's was a lesser role. I love Matt, and he's a great character.

@Umbraa

He's A character who has never been written to his full potential to date. So the "brought down to badass" wasn't really a good idea for Marvel with him. It's happened before. 

Herc fans didn't feel his de-powering either for the most part. It just that he's not a Street Level Character! 

He's the Dr. Doom if he was good guy! A "Secret City Science King" as coined by J. Hickman. Doom is a "Science King"! T'challa is a "Science King." 

 plus, you never hear anyone call Reed Richards a "street character"..

...like T'challa his mind is his real power! Is Lex Luthor considered "Street"? 

 And so to get him to MWF they had to remove all his perks to make him that...and that's been my point this entire debate. 

 And we are seeing that now after the "total street" experiment that failed.

Every thing you just wrote is based on what? They gave him a book and tried the "street" thing. They wanted to try something. And no, he could not take the role without taking away EVERYTHING...that's why they did it Vance. T'challa and Spiderman are not the same either, but I would argue that Pete is also a science hero under Slott and he could also fight in any miIieu! That's what writers see as "street"..not the characters themselves. I already proved you shoddy on that! We have seen him as "street" and there is no real threat. It's like the Ironman film where he fought the terrorist. Does that make Tony "street"? During the Client he terrified and terrorized the new lot area. Again, he doesn't fit in your box. One of the most prolific writers at Marvel simple does not agree with the premise of your arguement.

Let's see, there are a lot of double standards you are applying. It doesn't matter if you are on a team or not! Street is Street, right? And T'challa has been on plenty teams. Just because you have one Science hero that does not mean you can't have others. What sort of logic is this? So basically they need to get rid of Reed, Pym and other Science heroes...or you can accept that they are all different.Maybe there should be only one character that could fly, or fight also! C'mon. Stark wears a weapon---a highly advanced weapons system. T'challa's body is his weapon [highly advanced martial arts skill and enhanced prowess] rather then power armor. However, his v-mesh habit is still highly advanced and formidable! His energy daggers are not "street" weapons, the K-card isn't street either..and he is also a gulie hero (which few are his peer) in combination with his *super* intellect you get something that is easily on par. He could easily take on Ironman foes like Iron Monger, Titianum-man, Fin-Fang-Foom (he took on Black Dragon, 2nd most powerful dragon of Kun'lun), Crimson Dynamo, etc. Again his arch-foe is Klaw, the man who killed his father. And if fighting Killmonger makes him "street" then I guess Ironman is "street" too...with Ghost, Boomerang, Spymaster...you get the picture.

@Umbraa: Don't even worry about it, man. Some people like to hate on characters for no reason. Over at DC, we have Aquaman who is a ruler of a nation, yet he goes against some "street" villains, and does some "street" stuff. He does all that stuff, yet he is more interesting than the Panther somehow. He is a Monarch, which could restrict the writing potential for his character, yet he is still what people would consider more interesting than the Panther. That is the logic of internet people, and it is a darn shame. Panther should be one of Marvel's biggest names like Iron Man and Thor, but the readership isn't interested enough in him for some of these stupid reasons. I don't know how someone who is on the same League as Reed Richards in terms of intellect, and the same League as Captain America in terms of combat prowess isn't one of Marvel's main draws. The fact that he is king of a country should not deter him from coming out with good stories.

@Umbraa: Don't even worry about it, man. Some people like to hate on characters for no reason.

Over at DC, we have Aquaman who is a ruler of a nation, yet he goes against some "street" villains, and does some "street" stuff. 

Every thing you just wrote is based on what?

 And no, he could not take the role without taking away EVERYTHING...that's why they did it Vance.

I already proved you shoddy on that! 

 It's like the Ironman film where he fought the terrorist. Does that make Tony "street"? During the Client he terrified and terrorized the new lot area. Again, he doesn't fit in your box. One of the most prolific writers at Marvel simple does not agree with the premise of your arguement.

It doesn't matter if you are on a team or not! Street is Street, right? 

Just because you have one Science hero that does not mean you can't have others.

What sort of logic is this? So basically they need to get rid of Reed, Pym and other Science heroes...or you can accept that they are all different.

His energy daggers are not "street" weapons, 

He could easily take on Ironman foes like Iron Monger, Titianum-man, Fin-Fang-Foom (he took on Black Dragon, 2nd most powerful dragon of Kun'lun), Crimson Dynamo, etc. Again his arch-foe is Klaw, the man who killed his father. And if fighting Killmonger makes him "street" then I guess Ironman is "street" too...with Ghost, Boomerang, Spymaster...you get the picture.

He is a Monarch, which could restrict the writing potential for his character, yet he is still what people would consider more interesting than the Panther. 

Vance, that's not what "street" is...that fanboy nonsense. Street Level is just what it means, at the Street level. For writers, it's a milieu! Lol. Again, you don't know more then the actually writers Vince! Hickman doesn't see him as "street"...accept it! And 25 agreed totally. I'll just agree to disagree and which AvX and F4 608 and the Marvel Now stuff and laugh.

Wow Vance really? Is it that hard to accept? NOOOOO Klaw IS very much a Black Panther villain guy. Lmao, Black Panther is originally a F4 character..and Klaw appeared AS HIS VILLAIN in F4 53! He killed his father! It's HIS arch enemy! He was Created FOR BLACK PANTHER..again he was NEVER MEANT TO BE STREET. T'challa debuted in F4 #52. Please debate with facts rather then opinion.

Vance, that's not what "street" is...that fanboy nonsense. 

 Again, you don't know more then the actually writers Vance!

Hickman doesn't see him as "street"...accept it! 

 NOOOOO Klaw IS very much a Black Panther villain guy. Lmao, Black Panther is originally a F4 character..and Klaw appeared AS HIS VILLAIN in F4 53! He killed his father! It's HIS arch enemy! He was Created FOR BLACK PANTHER..again he was NEVER MEANT TO BE STREET. T'challa debuted in F4 #52. Please debate with facts rather then opinion.

I hate the people who write for his character that's all i gotta say.

@Vance Astro: You have gone to lengths to prove to everyone here that you are a Panther fan.

But in all seriousness, I do believe that he is missing something. But to go out and say that he isn't interesting does not seem like a thing that a fan would say. Geoff Johns is going to have to write Aquaman forever, because we all know he going to be the same lame hero we all knew from pre-Flashpoint.

I'm just waiting for the eventual Hickman BP title (if he decides to write one).