@entropy_aegis said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@entropy_aegis said:

Harley was one of their own,Joker=wanted criminal and how did he even know where to find them?

Well, he didnt care about them, he care about Harley

But you do make good point, the thing is, this is not a problem for Snyder's Batman, it was up to Adam Glass to come up with how the joker found Harley

Ofcourse a lot of the problems with how the characters were presented was definitely not Snyders fault directly but he should've coordinated the event properly cause at the end of the day it's his big story.

again, that would be fault of the editor

just because SS, Catwoman and Batgirl had terrible tie-ins doesnt mean Snyder should be the one that fixed them

But Snyder used both Harley and Batgirl in his own story,Catwoman okay excused but the other 2 definitely not.

is not like Harley or Batgirl did much in the story

@germandinner:

I'm sorry for the late delay, but I wanted to give your post the attention it deserved. I think it's amazing that we can discuss this issue at such length....I really love this community!

I'm going to reply in a similar manner to your post...not to all points, but it should be clear which one I'm addressing. Let me know if otherwise.

- You're right that it might be wise to wait to see how the Red Hood stuff will turn out. At the moment though...it seems that the existence of a red hood gang is already too much of a change. I'm willing to wait and see how it turns out....but I don't have high hopes.

-Is there anything to indicate he was training for 11 years? I don't know...I really liked the fact that he just disappeared for 11 years, presumed dead, and was traveling learning things from around the world. I think it's part of what made him such a master. There is only so much that you can do to train at home and I think it lessons it. There are not monks, master detectives and martial arts masters in gotham...

-If Snyder didn't make the change to Tim, fair enough, my bad. A gripe to pick with James on the podcast perhaps.

-I forgot about the bat signal being in the man who laughs...fair point?

-It's not that I want a batman who is nearly perfect. A batman who fails is more interesting. The failure has to be believable for the character though, which is where I think Snyder has failed. If Batman had any reason to suspect that Dick was behind it, he could have handled it better. The way that scene was written came off as very untrusting. Given that Bruce adopted Dick as his son and they have/had a very close relationship....it didn't seem right in the least. I disagree that this point I made is in anyway contradictory....it's easy to see how it's not. Pre New52 Batman did not have the criticisms I have leveled against him, and would not have had that conversation with Dick in that way.

-It was written that he never put much work into looking into it since the investigation he did as a kid. I thought it ridiculous that he was stubborn for as long as he was, instead of investigating it immediately because there was warranting evidence. Really, if the whole angle of him investigating it as a kid was removed and he had investigated it soon after he came back to gotham, it would have worked so much better.

-I guess I could accept some of your reasoning here, except it seems like your making excuses. Good writing doesn't require excuses, which is kind of my point. There should have at least been a struggle, or Batman should have heard something....just more of a struggle would have been great. It would not have lessened the Talons in any way as they still won, and would not have lessened Batman as it did.

-I get that his water was drugged and had no sleep etc etc. My argument is not that the state he was in was impossible, not at all. It's that we don't see him getting there. It should have shown him trying to analyze the situation, trying to break out. What did he try and fail at? Why was he trapped the way he was? It would be one thing to see him try and fail....but to just show him at the state makes it look like he didn't try too hard and was easily subjugated.

-I understand it was a symbolic illustration, I just think it was out of place. I certainly disagree that it works excellently, and I'm kind of surprised to see anyone say that, no matter how much they like it.

-So you don't think it shows a poor relation that for Bruce to see Dick's tooth he punches it out of him without warning? What kind of friends or fathers do that to their sons? Silly is an understatement.

-I'm not saying it is wrong..there is no wrong and right, it's all just opinion. I suppose I don't like it because I don't like the court of owls storyline. The bat was instrumental in inspiring Bruce, and I would have liked it to be saved for something grander.

-The evidence is not already contaminated by him touching it. Don't be silly. He is a detective and handles evidence all the time. Not keeping it because he didn't expect it to be evidence is a poor argument. Why wouldn't he just put it in a pocket in his utility belt? Because without CIS, there could be no cliffhanger about him being his brother or not.

-I suppose that is one way of looking at it. It would have been nice it it had been shown through inner monologue instead of having to be fanwanked.

-Nothing contradictory about it. I want Batman to be great intellectually, as he was before Snyder took over. He should not exceed his limitations without the help of technology, as he is just a human. The fight on an airplane was out of place for this semi-realistic take on the character.

-The court was disbanded. There was blood and stuff in several places, hair, whatever. It seemed as though he didn't even go back and try to find some. DNA is everywhere, it would be one thing if he tried to find some and failed, but to just say he didn't have it and give up?

-Again having to make excuses or fanwank the story to be plausible shouldn't happen with good writing. We are led to believe that joker was by himself, it was made a point of because the victims were aware it was joker as they died. If it was not just him, why would we not have been tipped off? It seems safe to say that scene in the police station will never be revisited now that DotF is over, without additional information, why assume or invent complicated explanations in addition to or in place of what we know based on what we actually saw?

-So he let himself be captured on the chance that the family and hostages would be spared? That makes no sense. If he is captured and knocked out, the Batman has no chance to stop any of that form happening anyway. So why would he give himself over so easily instead of trying? You make it sound like for anyone to capture batman, they just need a hostage or two.

-It doesn't matter. The only arguments I've seen for this scene have been fallacies. It doesn't matter because Joker already knew and didn't care, which was only confirmed by bruce telling him. Bruce didn't know for sure that Joker knew, so why give him that information, putting everyone close to him at risk? It makes no sense when it was just to confirm a theory. You argue that is inst stupid because joker might have known. That makes no sense. Why doesn't he reveal his identity to Riddler, since riddler might already know?

Thanks again for your input!

@Manbehindthewires said:

Only made them based on what you wrote. I've never known somebody to say something like " Batman is the only comic I read for a long time, and it is the only comic I've gone back and read as much as I can of. I know what I'm talking about"...when they haven't even picked up a copy of The Killing Joke, one of the most popular batman books of all time and the origin of the Red Hood and Joker...leading you to the assumption that Joker was originally the one and only Red Hood and not a front used by a gang of criminals? Seriously, that's fundamental Batman knowledge.

Sigh. Are you trolling, cause you are doing a stellar job of it. Yes, I've read The Killing Joke several times and am apparently far more familiar with it than you claim to be. The Red Hood in TKJ was a front,a title and costume given to a patsy to distract law enforcement from the actual criminals. There was no group of criminals who all wore red hoods as shown in Batman 0. I've attached an image from TKJ to help you understand

And where did you get your understanding of Bruce's relationships with Dick and Tim from? They've been pretty spot on to the other comics...and even the animated series. Have you ever picked up ANY of Nightwings earlier books?

Dick was his adopted son. Tim found him in his time of need and they had a close relationship that came from that. TAS and pre new 52 comics had it right. New 52 does not.

Batman not being easy to capture and outsmart again is laughable; he underestimates his enemies; it has been the axis of so many story's from Nightfall, to Dark Knight, to the Swamp Thing Saga, to the Adam West stuff on TV, it bleeds through the entire franchise...if even the monkeys at WB can see that, why can't you!? Apparently you "know what you're talking about", and those guys sure don't!

I know that Batman can underestimate his enemies, but it is about the execution. I don't know that he has done it so arrogantly and idiotically before. And yes, I do know what I'm talking about, and monkeys at the WB don't. The same monkeys who can't get a justice league movie of the ground, who screwed up green lantern, who didn't plan the new 52 and had to add in retractions and all kind of things.....

Again, if you've "read as much as you can"...did you miss out on key events like Long Halloween? Because you seem to really underestimate the joker too. To claim that Joker couldn't kill 20 cops without "gas or something" is ridiculous, this is a man who can sneak up on and infiltrate the likes of Falcone, Dent, Gordon, anyone he wants. You don't think he can set up a 20 man execution with the lights off? That's a party trick to him.

Instead of quoting me and trying to appear smart, maybe you could let me know when Joker has killed 20 armed cops with his bare hands without using weapons? Really, I'd love to see some examples of Joker as a superhuman

Batman not being able to withstand capture (again and again it surprises you) and unable to withstand drugging, brainwashing and interrogation etc? THE CULT!? NO!? These are HUGE, character building books we're talking about, and you seem to have overlooked all of them to put together this petty, nitpicking attack on Snyder and Capullo...

Oh wow, so you've read the cult. Shame it has nothing to do with my point that you can't seem to comprehend. As I said, I have no issue with an enemy getting the better of Batman and drugging him. It's the fact that it seemed so easy. We should have seen him trying to resist and ultimately failing, not just succumbing seemingly instantly. That is part of what made the cult so bad, and conversely it is why owls story suffered so much.

So yes, its silly to assume how much you've read; you may have read a lot of Batman...just none of the big important stories that everyone, even a casual Batman reader would be aware of. I think it'd be sillier for someone like yourself, writing a profile comparison like yours, to exclude knowledge of the likes of Killing Joke, The Cult, The Long Halloween, Knightfall, Dark Knight, Other Bat-family tie-ins and anything from the TV/Movie-verse and still claim that the current Batman story isn't a true reflection. Now that's just silly.

Hopefully you will stop before you embarrass yourself further. I think it's clear that not only have I read all the big stories, I've read a lot of the smaller ones too. I'd guess close to 400 issues in total, which isn't bad for a a 700 issue comic book series!

My complaints were dead on, and I have shown evidence to support that. The current Batman is not a reflection, it is a distortion. I have shown why. If you still want to play with the grown ups, I'd suggest bringing some evidence with you next time. Otherwise, you can go back to your corner. Or continue to play foolishly mouthing of not knowing what you're saying...

@wessaari said:

I respectfully disagree. For Batman to be perfect and win literally nonstop is boring. The Court of Owls pushed him to his limits, and the JOker story pushed his family to the limits.

Did you read my post? I don't want Batman to be perfect and win nonstop. I just want him not to make stupid, amateur mistakes. The court could have been a threat without making Batman an idiot.

@Onemoreposter said:

@MuyJingo: You're nit picking.

That said

I agree with almost all of your nit picks (besides Capullo's art which I love).

I wouldn't say Snyder is a bad writer. Actually, as I think he's technically good. His dialogue flows well, his stories are (mostly) cohesive, he seems to have a pretty well balanced 3 act structure he likes to use, and most importantly I think he genuinely likes the Batman and the characters that surround him.

Only some ar e nitpicks. Others are well founded complaints. You can't tell me Bruce giving away his identity is just a nitpick.

Glad that someone agrees with me though :)

I agree that he is a good writer, I just don't like what he does on Batman. Let him stick to swamp thing and vampires.

I can imagine Snyder saying, "These characters act like this now. Why the dramatic changes? No real reason. Its just how I like it. Deal with it." I realize too, this in the new 52 and Snyder has a lot of creative control to redefine aspects of the Bat-universe. In fact I'd wager that he's encouraged to do as much.

At the end of the day there are writers you like and writers you don't. Snyder is one we don't. We'll just have to "deal with it". Who knows, several years down the road we might come back and say, "hey in retrospect, these stories are actually not so bad."

I guess I do have to deal with it, but for the moment I'm annoyed and exercising my ability to voice it.

@SmashBrawler said:

The funniest part is that you forgot the biggest problem.

Can you enlighten me?

@MuyJingo: Not biting. This entire thread has been you sat in a corner shouting falsities while everybody else has stood around, confused and in agreement that for the most part you're wrong, your argument is poorly constructed and lacks any substance or backing; just claims that you have backing somewhere, and would use it if you wanted to, but you wont. Sorry you don't like Snyder, he writes a good Batman, and will be here for a while longer. Enjoy your corner.

@MuyJingo: I did read your post, and for Batman to be overconfident over the Court based on his past dealings with him shows his personal flaws. yes he made mistakes, but again Batman isn't perfect and for the Court to make him look like an idiot (in what my opinion is a really good story) is an accomplishment for his rogue. I understand that you're annoyed and didn't like the story, but there have been plenty of stories where Batman was wrong and made to look like a fool. This being as recent as it is, I can understand your frustration but know that Batman is a peak human individual, and nothing more.

@Manbehindthewires said:

@MuyJingo: Not biting. This entire thread has been you sat in a corner shouting falsities while everybody else has stood around, confused and in agreement that for the most part you're wrong, your argument is poorly constructed and lacks any substance or backing; just claims that you have backing somewhere, and would use it if you wanted to, but you wont. Sorry you don't like Snyder, he writes a good Batman, and will be here for a while longer. Enjoy your corner.

Sigh. Damn children on the internet. You clearly are trolling, so this will be my last reply to you.

You made absurd claims that I didn't know the character and had not read many of the defining stories. You then made a claim showing your ignorance re the red hood in the killing joke, which I posted a panel from to highlight how wrong you were. The rest of your claims were just as silly, and not supported by evidence.

Luckily, other, more mature viners saw the substance to my claims. Some disagreed which made for an interesting argument, others agree in part or whole which was assuring. Other like you can do nothing but make a lot of noise, unable to comprehend or make an argument of your own. Maybe when you grow up, and have something to contribute, you can come back and play. Till next time...

@MuyJingo: His Batman arcs so far have been either watered down versions of previous, better stories (Court of Owls) or practically pointless stories that add nothing new (DOTF).

I know I'm late, but here are my 2 cents.

1) This Red Hood origin takes away the Joker's original innocence, which in my opinion degrades the character.

2) While I don't agree with all the pictures, the point you're making is that Batman is shown as much weaker, and making lots of mistakes. This is unacceptable for this point in the timeline. He can't have Damian, Dick, and Tim and still be making mistakes. Batman also went crazy way too easily, and honestly could have been killed if the Court of Owls had felt like it at that moment. Unacceptable.

I think the same..

Yawn.

I don't see the point of this thread.

I agree with most of your reasons, he destroyed the Batman we know, I hate it too though I still enjoyed Snyder's stories. That's why I prefer Batman and Robin and Batman Inc. more than Batman. Its very sad that Morrison is leaving, I wish he stayed for another 4-5 years.