i dont know what to expect here, lots of interesting comments though lol

@EdwardWoods said:

Had a random idea the other day that it isn't Joker at all - it's Alfred, and that's how he knows the secret identities and is serving them dinner, cuz that's what Alfred would do as part of his duties.

I had this idea a few issues back. Joker was doing some of his early crimes with twists when the story started. He kidnapped Alfred because it's a twist on when he targeted Bruce Wayne in The Man Who Laughs. I'm guessing that somehow, Alfred was fighting back and knocked Joker's face off, which was coated in a toxin. Alfred, maddened by Joker serum, then assumed Joker's identity, strapping the face, to his own, dressing in the coveralls, and going after the Family himself. Batman has been too distracted and worried about Alfred's safety to notice that it's not the real Joker it's been Al kidnapping them, because he actually does know their identities.

I'm not sure what's under the cloches. Probably a note with "ha ha!"

@NightRunner: That is a really cool thought. What if Joker drove Alfred insane and reprogrammed him to go after the family. There was a Batman Beyond movie, called Return of the Joker, where Joker had Kidnapped and tortured Tim Drake and turned him into a miniature version of himself. Great stuff,worth checking out.Paul Dini and Kevin Smith did a commentary track for it recently.

http://smodcast.com/episodes/paul-dini-the-dini-dossiers-pt-3/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_Beyond:_Return_of_the_Joker

@Fantasgasmic: That's great!

@The Average Bear: He visited in one issue and covered her in bat symbols

It's joker's head under the tray. Jokers last laugh was turning Alfred into the Next Joker (the one we are currently seeing) using his laugh gas and we couldn't tell before because his face was cut off so the Joker could have been anyone! This explains how he knows their identities and also makes batman right about the fact that the joker didn't know their identities however Alfred did! And this is why batman nor anyone else would kill him because how could they kill Alfred? (This is probably wrong because I have no idea how Alfred could have grown his green hair in such a short amount of time.)

No matter what, Scott will deliver the goods. He's perfect. I'm excited to see #17, and very excited to see the subsequent story arc.

@Captain_Awesome85: It'll be a steak and then to everyone's horror it will be Batcow!

im going to say that hush is behind this

for me it just a normal cake. Two faces says you must be joking. the joker fool as all

I have a feeling the reveal isn't going to be as earth shattering as someones head or body parts.That seems like cheap parlour tricks to get attention for the book. I believe Snyder is a smarter writer than that and It will be something more subtle that will provide a great moral or lesson to the bat family.

Whatever happens, this arc has definitely captured my interest- and that's all I'm really after in a book.

Here's a super crazy idea:

Everyone keeps saying the "Bat Family," but what if it's actually the Joker Family and that's Harley's head under there?

What if Batman was under the tray?

@Fantasgasmic said:

@EdwardWoods said:

Had a random idea the other day that it isn't Joker at all - it's Alfred, and that's how he knows the secret identities and is serving them dinner, cuz that's what Alfred would do as part of his duties.

I had this idea a few issues back. Joker was doing some of his early crimes with twists when the story started. He kidnapped Alfred because it's a twist on when he targeted Bruce Wayne in The Man Who Laughs. I'm guessing that somehow, Alfred was fighting back and knocked Joker's face off, which was coated in a toxin. Alfred, maddened by Joker serum, then assumed Joker's identity, strapping the face, to his own, dressing in the coveralls, and going after the Family himself. Batman has been too distracted and worried about Alfred's safety to notice that it's not the real Joker it's been Al kidnapping them, because he actually does know their identities.

I'm not sure what's under the cloches. Probably a note with "ha ha!"

That would be totally crazy and totally awesome. It makes perfect sense!

@ccraft:

But the thing is Joker has never been straight forward. Why all the dramatics just to go "Ta-da! What you all expected!". That is just me. I really think it is a replica of Bruce, be it clayface or whatever. I don't see those two being easily shocked by a simple severed head.

It is everything Grant Morrision has done in the last 8 years or so, the Joker is going "Hey look I am finally cooking then tossing away most of the crap which came from this guy's run"

Man i love this, so many questions. The biggest are: What's being served!?! Why did Joker let his face be cut off?!? And what's his whole plan?!?!?!?!!

@Wolverine0628 said:

@Fantasgasmic said:

@EdwardWoods said:

Had a random idea the other day that it isn't Joker at all - it's Alfred, and that's how he knows the secret identities and is serving them dinner, cuz that's what Alfred would do as part of his duties.

I had this idea a few issues back. Joker was doing some of his early crimes with twists when the story started. He kidnapped Alfred because it's a twist on when he targeted Bruce Wayne in The Man Who Laughs. I'm guessing that somehow, Alfred was fighting back and knocked Joker's face off, which was coated in a toxin. Alfred, maddened by Joker serum, then assumed Joker's identity, strapping the face, to his own, dressing in the coveralls, and going after the Family himself. Batman has been too distracted and worried about Alfred's safety to notice that it's not the real Joker it's been Al kidnapping them, because he actually does know their identities.

I'm not sure what's under the cloches. Probably a note with "ha ha!"

That would be totally crazy and totally awesome. It makes perfect sense!

Also, since I realized the Damian/Joker/crowbar showdown from before the reboot did happen (referenced in Batman and Robin #11) the Joker's blood is still Joker toxin, so he didn't even need to drug Alfred, just bleed on him, to get the whole identity swap started.

Forgot to mention I do think that picture up above is the Bat-Cave, and I think that's where Bruce will both break down and admit that the Joker probably did make it into the cave way back when, and he didn't tell anyone because he was scared about the possibility that he's not as safe as he thinks (assuming Bane never broke in a broke him). And he'll figure out that it's not the real Joker, with some biometric/password/bio-scan something in the Batcave. Letting "Joker"into the Batcave will be what saves Alfred's life.

@Red_Robin212: I also think Hush is involved in some way.

My money's on Harley's head.

God, is it Wednesday yet? Yesterday was a pretty lackluster week for comics...at least from my perspective.

I want to read Batman #17 now.

I personally think that whatever is under the tray has to do with the "little secret" that Joker mentioned between him and Batman, probably something to do with the families secret identities, it would explain Penguin and Two-Face's reactions. Joker definitely knows at least some of their identities, in Nightwing 16 Jimmy calls Nightwing Dickie right in front of the Joker.

@Spideycap: Yeah thats what I'm thinking too. It makes sense that there would be more to the Joker claiming he knows all of their identities, maybe some sort of proof.

Adding to the "The Joker is actually Alfred" theories is the fact that carrying a silver platter to someone is pretty much THE stereotypical butler duty. So that might actually fit and be a huge clue...

Better not be god damn Alfred!

@JesterCK said:

Adding to the "The Joker is actually Alfred" theories is the fact that carrying a silver platter to someone is pretty much THE stereotypical butler duty. So that might actually fit and be a huge clue...

Can I go off-topic for a second: is Alfred a butler? or a valet? A valet is a personal attendant, as Alfred is to Bruce, whereas a butler is the head of a household, which Alfred also, sort of is, because there's no other permanent staff.

See this video

All your guys theories are great. Mine goes in line with Alfred is the Joker but here's my reasoning. In an old comic story arc called "Whatever happened to the Dark Knight?" all of Batmans friends and rouges are attending "Batmans funeral" and giving eulogies about their memories and takes of their encounters with him. Alfred's was the most frightening and bizarre because his take was that he was so down after his parents died that he had to create a purpose for him, which led to a series of panels of Alfred putting on paint, a green suit, make up, a wig and this becoming the Joker. Further cementing this theory, Alfred is the only person who was with Bruce for so long to be there to help develop him as a person and hero. Thus, he would also be the only person to psychologically break the worlds greatest detective, the ultimate symbol of justice and order, by being the complete opposite of chaos and anarchy. The black suit he's wearing in the frame a top of this article also reminds me more of Alfred than Joker, as does his body. The face is my biggest clue as not only was Alfred an actor, but he formerly also was an Army surgeon, easily being able to bandage wounds, and surgically attach skin to his face. As for the plate? I believe it's a picture. The blood obviously is the in between work, but it's the torture and brain washing which Joker drive Alfred insane enough to murder him, possibly cut off his own face if Joker didnt do that too, and graft it over his own. The picture has to be probably that of Alfred with each one of them out of costume, and Jason probably at his funeral or recovery

@Teerack said:

Kinda sad how likely it is that Alfred is in those treys. But I swear if Jason really loses his face this whole even was a huge mistake.

The only other thing i could think that might be in the trey is if the joker put something in there that would really hurt the individuals.

Alfred's head for Batman

Barbra's legs

Jason's Face

Robin's dog

Nightwing idk maybe that girl he likes from the bank.'

Tim idk either...he's kinda perfect so maybe his dick xD

Now that's just wrong, but in a sick way kinda funny.

Is it possible that Hush is actually the new Joker? Wacky, I know but maybe hush used jokers face as a replacement for his own. Just a thought. Also to me this Joker is quite out of character due to how he's been treating Harley but I suppose this is Snyders interpretation of him. I am definitely looking forward to this issue though

@Fantasgasmic:

That would be pretty cool. Maybe the bloody crowbar is under the lid?

@KRYPTON : I agree utterly! this would be difficult to do in 8 panels but:

1: Batman sees Alfred's head (or something), 2: Batman crumbles,3: joker taunts. 4:Batman stabs him in the stomach, 5: and stabs, 6: and stabs, 7: hand becoming covered in blood. 8/final page: joker's body silver platter abstract bat on the floor in blood.

@Mediumflyer7 said:

Is it possible that Hush is actually the new Joker? Wacky, I know but maybe hush used jokers face as a replacement for his own. Just a thought. Also to me this Joker is quite out of character due to how he's been treating Harley but I suppose this is Snyders interpretation of him. I am definitely looking forward to this issue though

No just stahp! Joker and Harley have always had a rocky, abusive relationship but they always come back together.

@millennium: as long as batman acts better than brad pit's emotional break,

I'd be surprised but ok with the death of the joker.

According to an upcoming Red Hood cover I bet Jason Todd's face is under that platter...although I don't think Penguin or Two-Face no who he is that well.

So I only see two outcomes that will make me happy:

1: Alfred dead or disfigured is under the tray, causing Bruce to snap and Kill the joker (finally, I mean all the torment; Jason's death, Barbra's attack...how do you not kill this guy!).

2: Damion. I hate the brat! (hush little baby don't you cry, Joker's gonna buy you a mocking bird, and if that mocking bird don't sing Joker's going to kill you a robin...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA)

I'm scared, I'm not sure I want to know what's under the lid... but the suspense kills me.... but I'm too scared to know .... ARG D:

If it's bat-mite im gonna cry.

@JohnnyGat: Haha the ending of your story is the best.

Sadly i think it is alfred.Or alfred's eyes.

@thenexusrebound said:

G-man brings up the exact thought I thought of. Two-Face and Penguin would have no clue who Alfred was. If it is true that Joker knows the truth it would only effect Bruce not them. My idea is it is some kind of Bruce Wayne like face. An old off my mind talked about if Bruce Wayne is Batman or is Batman, Bruce Wayne. That would get a reaction out of Two-Face and Penguin since they know who that is, and he is the face of Gotham. That is just my idea.

so right

In truth, I can't say what Joker has in store. If he has carved up Alfred or Gordon and is serving him all over the place, that would be interesting. If this whole arc was just Joker's way of making his mark on the Bat Family to say that he's back,t hen that is cool too. One way or another, we're almost at the end and its awesome.

I don't think it'll be Harley, as she's one the cover of Suicide Squad #18.

I already thought about Joker being Alfred and man, would it be cool !!!

But I don't think it is the case, 'cause we would not have seen the new joker before he hit Alfred...

As for the platters, i honestly have no clue ! But i like the idea that it would be another joker face ^^

The promo material for red hood shows a half faceless Jason, Nightwings promo shows him with bandages over his eyes, Perhaps joker is taking things from each individual. Jasons face to make jason resemble joker, the person he hates, nightwings eyes to prevent his acrobatics, barbara's legs (could be fixed through the use of technology to avoid cancelation of her comic)or her father maybe, red robin could lose an arm or perhaps his voice or hearing, Damian could lose alfred, and bruce could lose gordon.

@Edwardwoods. I think you nailed it and here's why. All of the bread crumbs have been laid out from very early on. Massive spoiler warning!! In the brilliant build up in issue #13, there is a mention of the baby lion born with 2 heads at the zoo. The same lion that the Joker puts on the doorstep of Wayne Manor before attacking Alfred. I thought this was just a twisted angle from Snyder, but it's actually foreshadowing the big reveal. On page 4, middle panel in the yellow block text panel reads 'polycephaly is not as uncommon as you think.' Polycephaly meaning having more than one head. This is the nucleus and theme of the of death of the family story. The Joker's other head or mind being Alfred's. There are other visual clues in issue #13. On page 5 we get our first look at the Joker in doorframe at the GCPD. It's not much but then check out page 9 where Alfred enters the Batcave as a shadowy silhouette much like the Joker a few panels earlier. It very well could be nothing but the boys are smart and I bet this was done for the reader to go back and say how did I miss that when the arc is done. Onto page 13, where Bruce is alerting the family as to what the Joker has just done. Tim Drake asks how did he do it? Bruce answers "he stole a pulse rifle from a squad car...he over amplified it, put it under the department in the sewer and aimed up. Tim replies, "H used their own weapon against them. it's almost funny." Could this be a metaphor or parallel for what the Joker did to Alfred? Using there own weapon (Alfred) against them. Alfred knows who they are and all of the personal and relevant details of each of their lives. Did the Joker over amplify Alfred and drive him to the brink of insanity only to be a used as a pawn in his game? On page 10 Bruce refers to the Dollmaker who's work will have a significant impact on issue 17. Yes I know they have to refer to him as he was responsible for the removal of the Jokers face. There is more to this though. The Dollmaker is referred to in issue 16 at Arkham as he created the lovely mural of bat art drawn on live human flesh. I suspect that the Dollmaker has made some Jokerish mask of flesh and scalp for Alfred. Is the Joker in this arc Alfred? I'm not certain but Alfred will play a big part. How did the Joker find out everyones identity and secrets, through Alfred somehow, someway. Back to issue 13, where Batman is at Ace chemicals with the original Red Hood. Batman is in the vat and Harley takes off the hood, clearly looking disturbed. It's important to note that the joker voice is coming from the hood as this could justify how Alfred Joker can sound like legit Joker. If in fact mechanic Joker is Alfred. In issue 14, Bruce has a nightmare in which he is attacked by Alfred who's face has been removed and worn as a mask. Alfred uses an axe ..... hmmm didn't the early panels of issue 17 show something similar? Are Alfred Joker's eyes dilated and different colours due to the iodine? Does Alfred Joker stare back at Batman with love because at his core he does love Bruce but is under the power of the Joker? Someone else here pointed out the platters are very Butler like. Isn't that the truth. Someone else also mentioned Alfred is an accomplished actor so this saga would be natural for him. All of these solicits featuring no Damien are a smoke screen. Damien won't die in DOTF, he might in Batman Inc though. How does Batman lose his humanity? By having his role model, mentor, father figure and moral compass ripped away from him and turned against him. Alfred will likely be a shadow of his former self by the end of this. There is a fate worse than death, a life of prolonged suffering. The rest of the family looks up to Alfred as well so it would cause them great pain if he suffered. I'm sure I've missed plenty of bread crumbs and if I did please point them out. Am I looking too far into the details? I very well could be however the shoe seems to fit. I've loved this arc and I can't wait for the finale.

Batman #17 won't be as earth-shattering as Batman Incorporated #8.

Batman #17 will be botched,Snyder has painted himself in to a corner.All this talk of death,family splitting Alfred=Joker is crap and predictable storytelling.

Or if Snyder chooses to make it safe(which I'd prefer) then he'd be instantly labelled as hack and a cheat,at this point mandatory shake up of the status quo=must for this story to be considered a top Joker read.

I dread a Lincoln March level absurdity(Alfred=Joker is certainly that).

I told one of the guys working at my local comic shop that its a cake, a joke get it

I really hope DC release a hardcover with for this story. With all the Batman issues, and then if not all, then some of the tie ins like Batgirl and Batman and Robin. I've only really been reading Batman and not the others and feel like I've missed a lot, especially with Barbara

I really hope its not Alfreds head. That will be so heart breaking