Bruce Wayne, who witnessed the murder of his billionaire parents as a child, swore to avenge their deaths. He trained extensively to achieve mental and physical perfection, mastering martial arts, detective skills, and criminal psychology. Costumed as a bat to prey on the fears of criminals, and utilizing a high-tech arsenal, he became the legendary Batman.
Hmmm I love the Batman rouges, But part of me agrees with Gambler and then I also find myself thinking about other characters rouges. I mean this says best in the DCU, But and I know some people are going to question this but I find myself falling into Supermans Rouges.....Why you ask okay here we go. Lex Luthor out of all of the bad guys in the DUC he is a mere man that fights a god and has constanly been a problem for the JLA, he steals the lime light from most villains on the DCU he is smart and always two steps ahead of the game. but yet is not scared to get his hands dirty when the time comes. Sure he is not as sick as scarecrow or the Joker. But he does what he needs to do, Its his mind set that wins me over. I mean Lex Luthor thinks his actions are defending the human race, protecting them from an alien invasion, How many times has he stepped up and helped the world when it needed him and how many times has he tried to take it over. Then we have Darksied, Bizzaro and a list of Villains that movements have a greater effect then just on Superman but on the whole DCU.
Superman's Rogue Gallery crossed my mind as well. Brainiac, Darkseid, Luthor, even Myztiplx (however you spell it) is pretty badass. Then you have Zod and Doomsday. But then theres a serious drop off in talent. Parasite, Toyman, Blazing Skull, Prankster. It diminishes the entire gallery in my opinion.
"Superman's Rogue Gallery crossed my mind as well. Brainiac, Darkseid, Luthor, even Myztiplx (however you spell it) is pretty badass. Then you have Zod and Doomsday. But then theres a serious drop off in talent. Parasite, Toyman, Blazing Skull, Prankster. It diminishes the entire gallery in my opinion. "
Dude batman has Calander man and the calulator not the good one:p Batmans old rouges are halrious .
"Superman's Rogue Gallery crossed my mind as well. Brainiac, Darkseid, Luthor, even Myztiplx (however you spell it) is pretty badass. Then you have Zod and Doomsday. But then theres a serious drop off in talent. Parasite, Toyman, Blazing Skull, Prankster. It diminishes the entire gallery in my opinion. "
Dude batman has Calander man and the calulator not the good one:p Batmans old rouges are halrious . "
I agree completely. However there's a longer list of good to great villains in Batman's rogue gallery which helps its overall appeal I think.
"Superman's Rogue Gallery crossed my mind as well. Brainiac, Darkseid, Luthor, even Myztiplx (however you spell it) is pretty badass. Then you have Zod and Doomsday. But then theres a serious drop off in talent. Parasite, Toyman, Blazing Skull, Prankster. It diminishes the entire gallery in my opinion. "
Dude batman has Calander man and the calulator not the good one:p Batmans old rouges are halrious . "
I agree completely. However there's a longer list of good to great villains in Batman's rogue gallery which helps its overall appeal I think. "
true its just Lex that swings it for me, I just love the concept of him and the idea that in his mind he is not really evil he is fighting a war. I mean when you get a good writer behind him he just amazes me.
"Superman's Rogue Gallery crossed my mind as well. Brainiac, Darkseid, Luthor, even Myztiplx (however you spell it) is pretty badass. Then you have Zod and Doomsday. But then theres a serious drop off in talent. Parasite, Toyman, Blazing Skull, Prankster. It diminishes the entire gallery in my opinion. "
Dude batman has Calander man and the calulator not the good one:p Batmans old rouges are halrious . "
Calendar man was awesome in Long Halloween and Dark Victory, and calculator has been reimagined as a pretty decent character.
"Superman's Rogue Gallery crossed my mind as well. Brainiac, Darkseid, Luthor, even Myztiplx (however you spell it) is pretty badass. Then you have Zod and Doomsday. But then theres a serious drop off in talent. Parasite, Toyman, Blazing Skull, Prankster. It diminishes the entire gallery in my opinion. "
Dude batman has Calander man and the calulator not the good one:p Batmans old rouges are halrious . "
Calendar man was awesome in Long Halloween and Dark Victory, and calculator has been reimagined as a pretty decent character. "
Dude I could list more but that is old school stuff like the 80s I think we are sticking to most recent, there has been two Calculators.
"true its just Lex that swings it for me, I just love the concept of him and the idea that in his mind he is not really evil he is fighting a war. I mean when you get a good writer behind him he just amazes me. "
"Superman's Rogue Gallery crossed my mind as well. Brainiac, Darkseid, Luthor, even Myztiplx (however you spell it) is pretty badass. Then you have Zod and Doomsday. But then theres a serious drop off in talent. Parasite, Toyman, Blazing Skull, Prankster. It diminishes the entire gallery in my opinion. "
Dude batman has Calander man and the calulator not the good one:p Batmans old rouges are halrious . "
Calendar man was awesome in Long Halloween and Dark Victory, and calculator has been reimagined as a pretty decent character. "
Dude I could list more but that is old school stuff like the 80s I think we are sticking to most recent, there has been two Calculators."
BatgirlBabs said:
"AtPhantom said:
"Calendar man was awesome in Long Halloween and Dark Victory, and calculator has been reimagined as a pretty decent character. "
i was just going to say that. Especially Long Halloween "
"true its just Lex that swings it for me, I just love the concept of him and the idea that in his mind he is not really evil he is fighting a war. I mean when you get a good writer behind him he just amazes me. "
Damn straight, I think it just goes on if you can find one villain that you can really get into in a certain person's rouges and then it kinda sparks your intrest from there and you grow into that character and understand them more. I mean Long Halloween was great. But then on Supermans Side you have Godfall or Red Son or the Death Of Superman. each have great rouges to play with I just think as I say who you can get into more. for me its supes.
"true its just Lex that swings it for me, I just love the concept of him and the idea that in his mind he is not really evil he is fighting a war. I mean when you get a good writer behind him he just amazes me. "
Damn straight, I think it just goes on if you can find one villain that you can really get into in a certain person's rouges and then it kinda sparks your intrest from there and you grow into that character and understand them more. I mean Long Halloween was great. But then on Supermans Side you have Godfall or Red Son or the Death Of Superman. each have great rouges to play with I just think as I say who you can get into more. for me its supes."
But she (Cheetah) is always in her books. I just don't think that she levels up to par with an Amazon Princess. The God of war, on the other hand; now there is a legitimate adversary. This goes back to the notion that a hero is only as good as his Rogue's gallery. The villain's purpose is to build up the hero's character. Ask yourself, would you prefer reading a comic where WW fights Ares, or where she fights Cheetah? What battle would make wonder woman look better/tougher?
" Agreed. I don't get why Cheetah has t be her primary opponent. "
I've always hated that. It should be someone like Medusa (even though they've fought before, she's never been WW main adversary) "
I agree, Someone like Circe, or Medusa would be a great main WW opponent. I love Some of the villians she has!"
Yeah I have always thought of Circe as her main adversary, I mean cheetah is just not that great. I get the fact that she is now a former Amazon gone rouge but news flash, WW owns her almost every time WW needs someone that pushes her and twists her.
"But she (Cheetah) is always in her books. I just don't think that she levels up to par with an Amazon Princess. The God of war, on the other hand; now there is a legitimate adversary. This goes back to the notion that a hero is only as good as his Rogue's gallery. The villain's purpose is to build up the hero's character. Ask yourself, would you prefer reading a comic where WW fights Ares, or where she fights Cheetah? What battle would make wonder woman look better/tougher? "
"But she (Cheetah) is always in her books. I just don't think that she levels up to par with an Amazon Princess. The God of war, on the other hand; now there is a legitimate adversary. This goes back to the notion that a hero is only as good as his Rogue's gallery. The villain's purpose is to build up the hero's character. Ask yourself, would you prefer reading a comic where WW fights Ares, or where she fights Cheetah? What battle would make wonder woman look better/tougher? "
I think you're underestimating her a bit.
I mean look at Luthor. He's nothing compared to Superman, Supes could kill him with his little finger, but Lex is the greatest adversary he ever had. I don't think It's the power or greatness of the opponent that makes him great, it's the dichotomy with the hero. Cheetah is pretty freaking smart. She has taken control of a portion of the secret society and masterminded the creation of Genocide and destruction of Department of metahuman affairs. She is a pretty frightening opponent to face, but like I said, I just don't see the dichotomy I see when I look at Lex/Supes or Batman/Joker.
As for your point about dichotomy between the hero and his rouge, I actually agree with the two of you, Right let me explain. I think that a villain should be able to take on the hero and look at lex, The Ring and Power Suit all make him a worthy oppenet of Supermans. But also his mind gives him the edge for future endevours. Cheetah in ways is a good smaller rouge in my mind but I dont think she is a good long term rouge for WW, Ares or Hades on the other hand are and with Ares history or Crice history with the Amazons it just makes for a better story over all. But I do think the the realtionship between the hero and villain is prehaps the single most important thing.
"But she (Cheetah) is always in her books. I just don't think that she levels up to par with an Amazon Princess. The God of war, on the other hand; now there is a legitimate adversary. This goes back to the notion that a hero is only as good as his Rogue's gallery. The villain's purpose is to build up the hero's character. Ask yourself, would you prefer reading a comic where WW fights Ares, or where she fights Cheetah? What battle would make wonder woman look better/tougher? "
I think you're underestimating her a bit.
I mean look at Luthor. He's nothing compared to Superman, Supes could kill him with his little finger, but Lex is the greatest adversary he ever had. I don't think It's the power or greatness of the opponent that makes him great, it's the dichotomy with the hero. Cheetah is pretty freaking smart. She has taken control of a portion of the secret society and masterminded the creation of Genocide and destruction of Department of metahuman affairs. She is a pretty frightening opponent to face, but like I said, I just don't see the dichotomy I see when I look at Lex/Supes or Batman/Joker. "
I won't get into why I think Joker is not Batman's most frightening adversary. I understand what you are saying about Cheetah, however, and perhaps I can attribute my dislike for her character to inconsistent interpretations; (i.e. bad writing). However, It's common knowledge that they (DC) have tried to make Cheetah Wonder Woman's biggest adversary. She is featured in more WW comics than any other opponent from what I can see, and I am simply saying that I think WW has better villains. If CATWOMAN can outsmart Cheetah, how am I supposed to take her seriously as Wonder Woman's biggest villain? While I respect your argument comparing Cheetah to Luthor, I think he's on a whole other level.
As for your point about dichotomy between the hero and his rouge, I actually agree with the two of you, Right let me explain. I think that a villain should be able to take on the hero and look at lex, The Ring and Power Suit all make him a worthy oppenet of Supermans. But also his mind gives him the edge for future endevours. Cheetah in ways is a good smaller rouge in my mind but I dont think she is a good long term rouge for WW, Ares or Hades on the other hand are and with Ares history or Crice history with the Amazons it just makes for a better story over all. But I do think the the realtionship between the hero and villain is prehaps the single most important thing."
Like I said, she is the mastermind behind many of Wonder Woman's recent misfortunes, But I agree with you, I never thought of her as a first tier villain.
"But also his mind gives him the edge for future endevours. ."
This is the one problem I have with Luthor and the argument that he's a worthy adversary for Superman. In order for Luthor to appear smarter, Superman must be dumbed down. When in all actuality Superman is a genius in his own right. His superspeed extends to his thought process. He matches wits with Brainiac yet when it comes to Luthor he's somehow constantly outmaneuvered and tricked. Batman is always displayed as being two to three steps ahead of his enemies while Superman continually falls back on his Strength to save the day. His father was one of the greatest minds on a planet of geniuses. It would be nice to see some of that aspect developed more in Superman.
"But she (Cheetah) is always in her books. I just don't think that she levels up to par with an Amazon Princess. The God of war, on the other hand; now there is a legitimate adversary. This goes back to the notion that a hero is only as good as his Rogue's gallery. The villain's purpose is to build up the hero's character. Ask yourself, would you prefer reading a comic where WW fights Ares, or where she fights Cheetah? What battle would make wonder woman look better/tougher? "
I think you're underestimating her a bit.
I mean look at Luthor. He's nothing compared to Superman, Supes could kill him with his little finger, but Lex is the greatest adversary he ever had. I don't think It's the power or greatness of the opponent that makes him great, it's the dichotomy with the hero. Cheetah is pretty freaking smart. She has taken control of a portion of the secret society and masterminded the creation of Genocide and destruction of Department of metahuman affairs. She is a pretty frightening opponent to face, but like I said, I just don't see the dichotomy I see when I look at Lex/Supes or Batman/Joker. "
I won't get into why I think Joker is not Batman's most frightening adversary. I understand what you are saying about Cheetah, however, and perhaps I can attribute my dislike for her character to inconsistent interpretations; (i.e. bad writing). However, It's common knowledge that they (DC) have tried to make Cheetah Wonder Woman's biggest adversary. She is featured in more WW comics than any other opponent from what I can see, and I am simply saying that I think WW has better villains. If CATWOMAN can outsmart Cheetah, how am I supposed to take her seriously as Wonder Woman's biggest villain? While I respect your argument comparing Cheetah to Luthor, I think he's on a whole other level.
"
For the record, I never said Joker is not Batman's most frightening villain, I was just stressing out the connection between them.
For the rest, I completely agree with you. I forgot about Catwoman outsmarting her... damn.
"But also his mind gives him the edge for future endevours. ."
This is the one problem I have with Luthor and the argument that he's a worthy adversary for Superman. In order for Luthor to appear smarter, Superman must be dumbed down. When in all actuality Superman is a genius in his own right. His superspeed extends to his thought process. He matches wits with Brainiac yet when it comes to Luthor he's somehow constantly outmaneuvered and tricked. Batman is always displayed as being two to three steps ahead of his enemies while Superman continually falls back on his Strength to save the day. His father was one of the greatest minds on a planet of geniuses. It would be nice to see some of that aspect developed more in Superman. "
I agree, It is a falw in the story between the two of them, but Superman has been shown to be smart in many comics, Its like I said when Lex has a good writer behind him its awesome, but thats the same as Superman, If he has a good writer who is willing to show that supes can go toe to toe with lex then it makes it all the better. I mean have you read Lex Luthor man of steel superman is a beast in that comic.
"But she (Cheetah) is always in her books. I just don't think that she levels up to par with an Amazon Princess. The God of war, on the other hand; now there is a legitimate adversary. This goes back to the notion that a hero is only as good as his Rogue's gallery. The villain's purpose is to build up the hero's character. Ask yourself, would you prefer reading a comic where WW fights Ares, or where she fights Cheetah? What battle would make wonder woman look better/tougher? "
I think you're underestimating her a bit.
I mean look at Luthor. He's nothing compared to Superman, Supes could kill him with his little finger, but Lex is the greatest adversary he ever had. I don't think It's the power or greatness of the opponent that makes him great, it's the dichotomy with the hero. Cheetah is pretty freaking smart. She has taken control of a portion of the secret society and masterminded the creation of Genocide and destruction of Department of metahuman affairs. She is a pretty frightening opponent to face, but like I said, I just don't see the dichotomy I see when I look at Lex/Supes or Batman/Joker. "
I won't get into why I think Joker is not Batman's most frightening adversary. I understand what you are saying about Cheetah, however, and perhaps I can attribute my dislike for her character to inconsistent interpretations; (i.e. bad writing). However, It's common knowledge that they (DC) have tried to make Cheetah Wonder Woman's biggest adversary. She is featured in more WW comics than any other opponent from what I can see, and I am simply saying that I think WW has better villains. If CATWOMAN can outsmart Cheetah, how am I supposed to take her seriously as Wonder Woman's biggest villain? While I respect your argument comparing Cheetah to Luthor, I think he's on a whole other level.
"
For the record, I never said Joker is not Batman's most frightening villain, I was just stressing out the connection between them.
For the rest, I completely agree with you. I forgot about Catwoman outsmarting her... damn. "
Oh I know, that Joker comment was in general, not just at you. I really never got how Joker is Batman's biggest adversary, but I digress.
Not to knock Catwoman, but she was never designed to be this really fierce hand to hand combatant. She was always in my opinion more inclined to utilize her sexual prowess and sensuality to get what she wanted. I mean, she could fight, for sure; but am I really supposed to believe that Cheetah is this huge threat to WW after Catwoman beats Cheetah? And not just beats her, kicks her butt AND outsmarts her. Idk.
"I agree, It is a falw in the story between the two of them, but Superman has been shown to be smart in many comics, Its like I said when Lex has a good writer behind him its awesome, but thats the same as Superman, If he has a good writer who is willing to show that supes can go toe to toe with lex then it makes it all the better. I mean have you read Lex Luthor man of steel superman is a beast in that comic."
I have actually. Its funny to see the similarities between that Luthor, and Dark Reign's Norman Osborn. In fact the storyline has several similarities as well. But I disagree about his intelligence not being displayed often. Its only when paired against Luthor he seems to become less acute. After spending a few hours with Zatanna, having her explain how magic works (at this point magic is still one of his major weakness') and its different applications, he not only understands what she's told him, but then uses it to overcome his weakness to magic (not all but some). There's an awesome scan of Batman talking about Superman's intelligence (cant find it) but this scan is pretty impressive as well.
analyzing and understanding genetic structures by just "glancing."
"I agree, It is a falw in the story between the two of them, but Superman has been shown to be smart in many comics, Its like I said when Lex has a good writer behind him its awesome, but thats the same as Superman, If he has a good writer who is willing to show that supes can go toe to toe with lex then it makes it all the better. I mean have you read Lex Luthor man of steel superman is a beast in that comic."
I have actually. Its funny to see the similarities between that Luthor, and Dark Reign's Norman Osborn. In fact the storyline has several similarities as well. But I disagree about his intelligence not being displayed often. Its only when paired against Luthor he seems to become less acute. After spending a few hours with Zatanna, having her explain how magic works (at this point magic is still one of his major weakness') and its different applications, he not only understands what she's told him, but then uses it to overcome his weakness to magic (not all but some). There's an awesome scan of Batman talking about Superman's intelligence (cant find it) but this scan is pretty impressive as well.
analyzing and understanding genetic structures by just "glancing."
"
Yeah I remember that issue and I hate the fact that they took away the super computer he built, The one that makes OMAC a joke. But I see what your talking about now, Yeah he gets dumbed down for luthor but I suppose it sells comics.
I personally don't see any problem with Luthor outsmarting him. Granted, I have not seen many older examples of their confrontations, but Superman never strikes me as a prep master, unlike Luthor who is the closest thing DC has to doctor Doom.
The way I see it, Superman has extensive scientific knowledge which stems from his enhanced senses and computing abilities, but there are other fields of intelligence, unlike Luthor, who is a genius in every area. For one, Luthor is a master manipulator, and is capable of twisting any person or law to his needs. Superman, either thorugh lack of skill or personal ettics, cannot do that. Superman, while having the power of a god, limitls himself to human laws and morals which he obeys, and this leaves him open to manipulation by Luthor who imposes no such restrictions upon himself.
This I think is Luthor's greatest "power". Not the ability to create complex machinery, but to predict and manipulate the actions of other beings (something batman also does pretty well, but in which Superman is relatively lacking). In this he is unparalleled in DCU, and this is what makes his such a great enemy. An excelent example of that is Luthor from from JLU cartoon. While Superman is by no means a doonce in the show, and their battles usually end with his victory, Luthor is able to work his way out of every situation using nothing but his charm
"I personally don't see any problem with Luthor outsmarting him. Granted, I have not seen many older examples of their confrontations, but Superman never strikes me as a prep master, unlike Luthor who is the closest thing DC has to doctor Doom. "
How is Luthor like Doom? I don't see any similarities between the two. Doom is so far out of Luthor's league its not even funny. Luthor is the DC's Norman Osborn.
AtPhantom said:
"The way I see it, Superman has extensive scientific knowledge which stems from his enhanced senses and computing abilities, but there are other fields of intelligence, unlike Luthor, who is a genius in every area. "
The speed in which he processes information should put Luthor to shame. I'm not sure about Luthor being a "genius" in every area either. I wouldn't call Luthor a tactical genius but maybe I'm wrong. I'd say in some areas he's simply an opportunist and manipulator. Superman is far from just a scientific genius. He deals with multple situations almost instaniously. He could formulate and execute plans before Luthor could blink. But no one would wanna read that.
AtPhantom said:
"For one, Luthor is a master manipulator, and is capable of twisting any person or law to his needs. Superman, either thorugh lack of skill or personal ettics, cannot do that."
I agree that Luthor is definitely a master of manipulation but I disagree about him being able to twist any person to his needs. Only the weak willed seem to fall for his tricks, which is why I have a problem when he easily outsmarts Superman. Superman doesn't need to manipulate people to show his intelligence. He's well aware of who Luthor is and what he does. Someone who can comprehend at the speeds in which Superman has been shown to do, should not be outsmarted by the same normal human genius time and time again.
AtPhantom said:
"Superman, while having the power of a god, limitls himself to human laws and morals which he obeys, and this leaves him open to manipulation by Luthor who imposes no such restrictions upon himself. "
This shouldn't stop Superman from utilizing his intelligence. In fact Superman could and should be able to read and comprehend every single man made law in existence. Obeying the laws of man only means he wont go as far as Luthor, that doesn't mean he should be blind sided or unable to remain 6 moves ahead of Luthor at all times.
AtPhantom said:
"This I think is Luthor's greatest "power". Not the ability to create complex machinery, but to predict and manipulate the actions of other beings (something batman also does pretty well, but in which Superman is relatively lacking). In this he is unparalleled in DCU, and this is what makes his such a great enemy. An excelent example of that is Luthor from from JLU cartoon. While Superman is by no means a doonce in the show, and their battles usually end with his victory, Luthor is able to work his way out of every situation using nothing but his charm "
But Superman isn't lacking that ability. Its something the writer uses to make more of a believable story. Luthor (in my opinion.) isn't close to Batman in terms of preparation or predicting his opponents moves. He's good, but not that good. Like I said in the above post, simply because Luthor is a manipulator is no reason for Superman to constantly be tricked and or outsmarted by Luthor. They can show that Luthor is the ultimate thinking man's villain without having Superman dumbed down. In fact, the greater Superman's intelligence is played up the more empressive Luthor's intellignce would look when he puts one over on him.
My problem was never Luthor's display of intelligence. Its the fact that Superman's intelligence is dumbed down for whatever reason when the two sqaure off.
"But she (Cheetah) is always in her books. I just don't think that she levels up to par with an Amazon Princess. The God of war, on the other hand; now there is a legitimate adversary. This goes back to the notion that a hero is only as good as his Rogue's gallery. The villain's purpose is to build up the hero's character. Ask yourself, would you prefer reading a comic where WW fights Ares, or where she fights Cheetah? What battle would make wonder woman look better/tougher? "
I would prefer reading a comic where WW is fighting Ares because they're a better contrast with one another the warrior princess for peace vs. the god of war. The theme of war is far more prevalent due to one side symbolizing good and the other evil.
Admittedly, I feel the same way with Joker/Batman and Luthor/Superman, I genuinely believe there are other villains like Brainiac that make Superman look better/tougher and I genuinely believe there are other villains like Ra's Al Ghul that make Batman look better/tougher.
"I've said it a billion times. A villian's quality is not measured by his power level. Penguin is a clown too, but at least he's got real depth as a character. Spidey's villians are all the same guy with a different power."
Plus Penguin is the only one in gotham with a succesful career as a criminal, and batman can't do anything!
Current Lex is almost Tony Stark/Doom levels.90's Lex was more akin to Kingpin/Green Goblin levels. Batman has only 3 villians right now.Ra's,Joker and ivy,Bane and Deadshot have moved on.Prometheus,Deathstroke,Lady Shiva are not Batman villians.Guys like Penguin,Riddler,Two-face etc are jokes.They have an interesting backstory but nothing else other than that.Hush is a dumb character,and i don't even wanna get started on Crazy quilt,Humpty Dumpty etc. Freeze and Croc are walking jobbers. I feel Superman and X-men have better villians than Batman and Spiderman. Lex,Brainiac,Mongul,Zod,Hank Henshaw are all proper menaces.Bat's has only 3 rogues which i mentioned on par with them when it comes to being threatening.
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